Please remove DLC Dungeons from the Random Veteran Dungeon Activity

Raisin · November 2019

Jeremy wrote: »

[Quoted post has been removed.]

I meant gray area. lol

We're going to have to agree to disagree on that, I think. Which isn't surprising considering we have had vastly different experiences. You rarely encounter groups that drop when a difficult DLC dungeon pops up on their random queue where as it happens to me more often than not. And I'm not trying to exaggerate or imply something that isn't true here. That is literally just what happens.

I don't understand how you are going to add a DLC-only queue that has a better reward without splitting up the queue between base and DLC.

By not removing DLC from the other queue. There would be a queue where you are guaranteed to get DLC. And one that is as it is now. Cause as I said I don't think it's in any way helpful to remove the simple just-give-me-ANY-dungeon queue.
I explained in the response before this why I don't think a base-only queue is viable.

Jeremy · November 2019

Raisin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

[Quoted post has been removed.]

I meant gray area. lol

We're going to have to agree to disagree on that, I think. Which isn't surprising considering we have had vastly different experiences. You rarely encounter groups that drop when a difficult DLC dungeon pops up on their random queue where as it happens to me more often than not. And I'm not trying to exaggerate or imply something that isn't true here. That is literally just what happens.

I don't understand how you are going to add a DLC-only queue that has a better reward without splitting up the queue between base and DLC.

By not removing DLC from the other queue. There would be a queue where you are guaranteed to get DLC. And one that is as it is now. Cause as I said I don't think it's in any way helpful to remove the simple just-give-me-ANY-dungeon queue.
I explained in the response before this why I don't think a base-only queue is viable.

I see. Think I get what you are saying now.

Can't say I like this solution though, because players who have no intention of doing difficult DLC content for their random would still be landing in my specific queues for Veteran Lair of Maarselok as an example. So it wouldn't fix the problem.

Jeremy · November 2019

Hapexamendios wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Hapexamendios wrote: »

If you have access to them, them being the random is fair.

But what about that person who is specifically queuing up for DLC content but keeps getting grouped with players looking for a base game easy random and having his or her group disbanded on account of that?

Is that fair?

The vast majority of people I know don’t use the dungeon finder for DLC content. If you do, you know what you’re in for. So yes, it is fair.

So it's fair for players queuing up for specific DLC content to have their groups disbanded because their queue is filled up with players who are just looking for an easy base game random due to the fact the vast majority of people you know don't use the dungeon finder for DLC content?

Can't say that's an argument that wins me over.

A better argument would be to just split the queue up - that way players who want to use the activity finder for DLC content can use the activity finder for that - and those who don't want to use it for DLC content don't have to. That's called a win/win and makes a lot more sense than just expecting everyone to disband at the start when you get a hard DLC dungeon.

Raisin · November 2019

Jeremy wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

[Quoted post has been removed.]

I meant gray area. lol

We're going to have to agree to disagree on that, I think. Which isn't surprising considering we have had vastly different experiences. You rarely encounter groups that drop when a difficult DLC dungeon pops up on their random queue where as it happens to me more often than not. And I'm not trying to exaggerate or imply something that isn't true here. That is literally just what happens.

I don't understand how you are going to add a DLC-only queue that has a better reward without splitting up the queue between base and DLC.

By not removing DLC from the other queue. There would be a queue where you are guaranteed to get DLC. And one that is as it is now. Cause as I said I don't think it's in any way helpful to remove the simple just-give-me-ANY-dungeon queue.
I explained in the response before this why I don't think a base-only queue is viable.

I see. Think I get what you are saying now.

Can't say I like this solution though, because players who have no intention of doing difficult DLC content for their random would still be landing in my specific queues for Veteran Lair of Maarselok as an example. So it wouldn't fix the problem.

In the end, that is where we have to respect the limits of the group finder. It is never going to be as ideal as running with guildies, friends, or organizing in zone chat.
If there is a better reward for queuing full random, people will do that and ditch when they get DLC dungeons. If the reward is the same, people won't queue for DLC as much. Removing the full random queue removes the one true random option there is and I don't think it's fair to make people do full random via specific dungeon list and get no bonus reward.

Jeremy · November 2019

Raisin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

[Quoted post has been removed.]

I meant gray area. lol

We're going to have to agree to disagree on that, I think. Which isn't surprising considering we have had vastly different experiences. You rarely encounter groups that drop when a difficult DLC dungeon pops up on their random queue where as it happens to me more often than not. And I'm not trying to exaggerate or imply something that isn't true here. That is literally just what happens.

I don't understand how you are going to add a DLC-only queue that has a better reward without splitting up the queue between base and DLC.

By not removing DLC from the other queue. There would be a queue where you are guaranteed to get DLC. And one that is as it is now. Cause as I said I don't think it's in any way helpful to remove the simple just-give-me-ANY-dungeon queue.
I explained in the response before this why I don't think a base-only queue is viable.

I see. Think I get what you are saying now.

Can't say I like this solution though, because players who have no intention of doing difficult DLC content for their random would still be landing in my specific queues for Veteran Lair of Maarselok as an example. So it wouldn't fix the problem.

In the end, that is where we have to respect the limits of the group finder. It is never going to be as ideal as running with guildies, friends, or organizing in zone chat.
If there is a better reward for queuing full random, people will do that and ditch when they get DLC dungeons. If the reward is the same, people won't queue for DLC as much. Removing the full random queue removes the one true random option there is and I don't think it's fair to make people do full random via specific dungeon list and get no bonus reward.

I'm not expecting an ideal experience. But what I am expecting though is that when I queue up for a specific dungeon not to get a group full of people who have no intention of doing the dungeon I actually queued up for. And I don't believe that's an unreasonable expectation. It's just become too commonplace to disband groups when a DLC dungeon hits.

I know you say it doesn't happen often to you - but just look at the guy I just got done responding to who says the vast majority of people he knows doesn't use the activity finder to do DLC content. This assumes they just disband when DLC content triggers. So it's not just me who experiences this.

That's why I say it would just be best to split them up. But maybe... if the reward was really really good, it might would help. It'd be better than what we have now at least.

thorwyn · November 2019

I'm using GF a LOT and it never happened to me that the group disbanded when I got queued into a dlc dungeon. Occasionally, people are leaving when the group is struggling at a certain boss, but not right from the start. I think this entire discussion is redundant, it has been brought up like once every week and all arguments have been exchanged ad nauseam by now.
Splitting the queues would only hurt those people who are queueing for a specific dlc dungeon

Pauls · November 2019

Dont cut the ways through which brave hearts earns fame and glory!

MrBrownstone · November 2019

There is a very simple and effective solution which would make everything much better for everyone.

Better rewards for DLC dungeons.

FierceSam · November 2019

Raisin wrote: »

I'll say what I said in the last thread: If you get a random queue that excludes DLC dungeons, I get a queue that excludes base game dungeons. It's not fair if others get to say "I want a random dungeon but not that one" and I don't. Getting a base game dungeon is as excruciating for me as it is to get a DLC one for you. DLC dungeons do not feel long to me because I enjoy them (yes even with terrible PUGs time passes fast)... Base game dungeons just feel like they drag on forever just because I can't stand the dullness anymore.
It's still a terrible idea IMO, but I don't wanna repeat the same arguments every week when a new thread on this pops up. I just worry that if we lose the energy to disagree, ZOS will listen to the people demanding this to make it stop.

You can have this right now. You just select the dungeons you want in the group finger and go.

You can’t have this and your random normal dungeon XP bonus.

OP’s point is still valid. There is no way stuffing unprepared players into DLC content in random groups benefit anyone. Players like you get “terrible PUGs”, and they get long dungeons which aren’t any fun for them. We in the forum get to see post after post of whiney “my group’s DPS was bad.. my game sucked” threads, which are really no fun for anyone.

ZOS won’t follow OP’s advice because then players like you, who enjoy DLC content, would have to wait even longer to fill their vetDLC groups, playthoughs (or more accurately playstarts) of DLC content would fall and that might challenge the whole 2 DLC dungeon releases a year model.

llande · November 2019

Well I have the option in game to select specific dungeons broken down by name and version. Which allows in practice to do anything what was requested by OP and others.

Jem_Kindheart · November 2019

Aside from the fairness versus rewards versus access points, which are legitimate points, the major thing is that there's a gigantic difference between a twenty / thirty minute vet base pug and the 4~5 hours it takes to get a pug of potatoes through vet Maarselok. I think it's reasonable and logical to roundtable some discussion on ways to alleviate that very extreme difference in time. Moving vet dlc to cp300+ helped some in a backhanded kinda way. Don't think it unreasonable at all to allow a player selector for only non-dlc randos, for example.

Ofc these are pie-in-the-sky ideas with the dungeon finder barely fit for purpose in its current state haha, but worth the discussion regardless.

Kel · November 2019

I'm gonna say no.

Not because I don't think any idea's on either side don't have merit, but because the Group Finder is a absolute mess and Zos's attempt to fix it this patch has been a unmitigated disaster. On top of that, it's hard for me to look at "in a perfect world" scenario because that has to do with so much denial of reality, and one cannot have serious discussion when it's based in what could be and denies what is.

So no. We have enough mess as is, thank you.

srfrogg23 · November 2019

Raisin wrote: »

I'll say what I said in the last thread: If you get a random queue that excludes DLC dungeons, I get a queue that excludes base game dungeons. It's not fair if others get to say "I want a random dungeon but not that one" and I don't. Getting a base game dungeon is as excruciating for me as it is to get a DLC one for you. DLC dungeons do not feel long to me because I enjoy them (yes even with terrible PUGs time passes fast)... Base game dungeons just feel like they drag on forever just because I can't stand the dullness anymore.
It's still a terrible idea IMO, but I don't wanna repeat the same arguments every week when a new thread on this pops up. I just worry that if we lose the energy to disagree, ZOS will listen to the people demanding this to make it stop.

I think that would be optimal. Have two queues, one for base game dungeons and the other for vet dungeons.

Right now, the only way to opt out of vet DLC dungeons is to cancel the ESO+ subscription and not purchase the dungeon packs at all.

The other thing Zos could do is to simply stop tuning the difficulty and mechanics to appease the e-peen flexers...

Kel · November 2019

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

I'll say what I said in the last thread: If you get a random queue that excludes DLC dungeons, I get a queue that excludes base game dungeons. It's not fair if others get to say "I want a random dungeon but not that one" and I don't. Getting a base game dungeon is as excruciating for me as it is to get a DLC one for you. DLC dungeons do not feel long to me because I enjoy them (yes even with terrible PUGs time passes fast)... Base game dungeons just feel like they drag on forever just because I can't stand the dullness anymore.
It's still a terrible idea IMO, but I don't wanna repeat the same arguments every week when a new thread on this pops up. I just worry that if we lose the energy to disagree, ZOS will listen to the people demanding this to make it stop.

The other thing Zos could do is to simply stop tuning the difficulty and mechanics to appease the e-peen flexers...

Getting rid of cheesy, lazy, one shot mechanics would go along way...

srfrogg23 · November 2019

Kel wrote: »

srfrogg23 wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

I'll say what I said in the last thread: If you get a random queue that excludes DLC dungeons, I get a queue that excludes base game dungeons. It's not fair if others get to say "I want a random dungeon but not that one" and I don't. Getting a base game dungeon is as excruciating for me as it is to get a DLC one for you. DLC dungeons do not feel long to me because I enjoy them (yes even with terrible PUGs time passes fast)... Base game dungeons just feel like they drag on forever just because I can't stand the dullness anymore.
It's still a terrible idea IMO, but I don't wanna repeat the same arguments every week when a new thread on this pops up. I just worry that if we lose the energy to disagree, ZOS will listen to the people demanding this to make it stop.

The other thing Zos could do is to simply stop tuning the difficulty and mechanics to appease the e-peen flexers...

Getting rid of cheesy, lazy, one shot mechanics would go along way...

I agree. I think blaming Twitch and YouTube elitists is valid at this point.

Balancing around coordinated groups that are in META optimized gear with voice chat is all fine and dandy for things like Vet Trials and vDSA.

Random dailies with CP300s in blue gear, RP builds, and zero coordination? Not such a great idea. Hell, half of the dps I get grouped with don't even know what LA weaving is...

TheGreatBlackBear · November 2019

Here's the deal random vet means that you're prepared to do and complete ANY veteran dungeon. If you're not able to then go queue for normal.

TheGreatBlackBear · November 2019

Also dlc dungeons keep eating nerfs. How much easier can they get?

L_Nici · November 2019

God I am really annoyed by those who quote everything they can find, its no fun to scroll through, I don't want to read what others said again, because I already read that.

And now to the topic: overall i would be pleased if DLC Dungeons would get a division from the others even in normal mode. It is really no fun to reach level 45 while leveling and then ONLY be placed in DLC Dungeons just because you can get placed there, they always take way longer than regular dungeons and slow down leveling so much.
Also after some time you get really tired of seeing them, I have characters where I never saw any other Dungeon than the DLC ones.

srfrogg23 · November 2019

TheGreatBlackBear wrote: »

Here's the deal random vet means that you're prepared to do and complete ANY veteran dungeon. If you're not able to then go queue for normal.

If only it was that simple... what about all the other people that queue who aren't ready or able to do vet DLC dungeons that eat up my time when I'm trying to get it done?

srfrogg23 · November 2019

L_Nici wrote: »

God I am really annoyed by those who quote everything they can find, its no fun to scroll through, I don't want to read what others said again, because I already read that.

And now to the topic: overall i would be pleased if DLC Dungeons would get a division from the others even in normal mode. It is really no fun to reach level 45 while leveling and then ONLY be placed in DLC Dungeons just because you can get placed there, they always take way longer than regular dungeons and slow down leveling so much.
Also after some time you get really tired of seeing them, I have characters where I never saw any other Dungeon than the DLC ones.

It's not that bad. It helps people follow this specific sub-conversation.

CoronHR · November 2019

i think it's sort of an issue with the dlc vet dungeons...they're REALLY hard. but at the end of them you have a chance of a rare motif drop which is worth a lot, unless you decide to learn it, which you can then add to your outfits. so there's that extra bonus. but i get you...many players aren't prepared for dlc vet dungeons. i myself can't do all of them, only some of them, and for that reason mainly, i don't do vet dungeons. if there are pugs in there who can't do it, kick them. if you have trouble with them, don't do them. really, you should only be queuing for vet randoms if you can reasonably manage every dungeon on vet, period

quadraxis666 · November 2019

As long as this DLC excluding group finder gets it's own name like "ultra novice beginner group finder" I'm fine with it.

Players like the OP are bad and they should feel bad.

redlink1979 · November 2019

Jeremy wrote: »

I know this has been suggested before. But I'm going to suggest it again. Because it can't be said enough.

If you don't like the dungeon, do as others do: leave the group... Problem solved.

TheGreatBlackBear · November 2019

Are all the people in here complaining tanks and healers? Because with the exception of the last four dlc dungeons a competent DPS can solo the dungeon on non hardmode provided that tank keeps agro off him. So what exactly are you guys saying?

Taleof2Cities · November 2019

Jeremy wrote: »

I'm not expecting an ideal experience. But what I am expecting though is that when I queue up for a specific dungeon not to get a group full of people who have no intention of doing the dungeon I actually queued up for.

I think players are forgotting random means RANDOM ... a selection from all available choices (including the DLC ones).

Don’t want a DLC dungeon?

No problem.

Pro Tip: Instead of choosing ‘random normal’ or ‘random veteran’ in the Dungeon finder UI, select ‘specific dungeons’. Then, check every one of the non-DLC dungeons from the specific dungeon list. When finished, click “join queue” to activate the dungeon finder ... which will then search all non-DLC dungeons for grouping.

You’re welcome.

karekiz · November 2019

thorwyn wrote: »

I'm using GF a LOT and it never happened to me that the group disbanded when I got queued into a dlc dungeon. Occasionally, people are leaving when the group is struggling at a certain boss, but not right from the start. I think this entire discussion is redundant, it has been brought up like once every week and all arguments have been exchanged ad nauseam by now.

Same experience. Maybe 1/20 groups for DLC I have had someone bail out.

Most of the time if you get new people this happens:
1. Zone in - Person gets quests - clear they have not done the dungeon. You ask have you done it on vet, and you get no answer. So you run ahead and do the entire thing anyway. This is usually the most popular option.
2. Zone in - Wipe on a boss - someone leaves.
3. Zone in - Clear the dungeon, and while its rough for you, for the new player it seems going good. Until you get to final boss in vet DLC after rezzing them over and over and they "need" you do HM for them, even if all three other players aren't interested.

I still back the idea of a tank/heal/DPS test to "unlock" the dungeons tiers including DLC. Don't want DLC? Don't take the test, but that also in general means Vet T1/T2 dungeons have a test as well to unlock. So everyone has to do at least something to que to vet even on the basic Fungal grotto 1 vet.

Jeremy · November 2019

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

I'm not expecting an ideal experience. But what I am expecting though is that when I queue up for a specific dungeon not to get a group full of people who have no intention of doing the dungeon I actually queued up for.

I think players are forgotting random means RANDOM ... a selection from all available choices (including the DLC ones).

Don’t want a DLC dungeon?

No problem.

Pro Tip: Instead of choosing ‘random normal’ or ‘random veteran’ in the Dungeon finder UI, select ‘specific dungeons’. Then, check every one of the non-DLC dungeons from the specific dungeon list. When finished, click “join queue” to activate the dungeon finder ... which will then search all non-DLC dungeons for grouping.

You’re welcome.

Your supposed "Pro Tip" is useless in the situation I am describing to that poster. You don't seem to understand the context.

I was talking about a person who queues up specifically for a Veteran DLC dungeon (I used Lair of Maarselok in my example) and then that person's group gets filled up with players looking to do a base-game random for the daily reward. These players then consequently drop when they see the harder DLC one pop up because they never had any intention of doing DLC content when they signed on for a random veteran dungeon.

I myself don't even do randoms. But the players who do are not going to select all the base game dungeons on the queue finder anyway because that would negate the extra reward and defeat their purpose for doing a random dungeon in the first place.

Jeremy · November 2019

quadraxis666 wrote: »

As long as this DLC excluding group finder gets it's own name like "ultra novice beginner group finder" I'm fine with it.

Players like the OP are bad and they should feel bad.

"Players like the OP" are actually wanting to do DLC content but often can't because their groups keep getting filled with players who just want to concentrate on getting their random veteran done with an easy base game dungeon.

So if anyone should "feel bad" it's you, for making such a ______ assumption.

Jeremy · November 2019

redlink1979 wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

I know this has been suggested before. But I'm going to suggest it again. Because it can't be said enough.

If you don't like the dungeon, do as others do: leave the group... Problem solved.

Just leaving the group when a dungeon pops up you don't like when you do random does not solve the problem.

That's the entire point of this thread. It _____ people who are trying to do specific DLC dungeons because they keep getting grouped with people who are doing the veteran random and don't want to do the more difficult dungeons.

So that doesn't "solve" the problem at all. It just makes it worse, actually.

Jeremy · November 2019

thorwyn wrote: »

I'm using GF a LOT and it never happened to me that the group disbanded when I got queued into a dlc dungeon. Occasionally, people are leaving when the group is struggling at a certain boss, but not right from the start. I think this entire discussion is redundant, it has been brought up like once every week and all arguments have been exchanged ad nauseam by now.
Splitting the queues would only hurt those people who are queueing for a specific dlc dungeon

It's brought up every week because it's a real problem that needs to be addressed.

There are too many players who use the Random Veteran Activity who are either unprepared or unwilling to do the harder DLC content. It would be better for everyone if they just split up the dungeons into two categories. This would make sense anyway because there is a large skill gap between them.

I also don't agree that this circumstance helps people who are queuing for specific DLC content. That has not been my experience, at all. Try queuing up for a Veteran Maarselok's Lair as an example and watch how many "Random Vet" players you get who either just drop at the beginning while grumbling of their bad luck or leave the group at the first sign of trouble because they never wanted to do that dungeon in the first place.

It would be better for those players queuing for specific DLC content to have only players who are actually prepared and willing to do DLC content to show up in their groups. I think this change would help that happen.