Please remove DLC Dungeons from the Random Veteran Dungeon Activity

Jeremy · November 2019

I know this has been suggested before. But I'm going to suggest it again. Because it can't be said enough.

Please remove DLC Dungeons (in particular the difficult ones) from the Random Veteran Dungeon Group & Activity Finder. Including these Dungeons helps no one. It doesn't help the players who are just trying to get a quick random done. These players are more likely to drop or to bail. It doesn't help players who are actually trying to get one of the more difficult Veteran DLC Dungeons done either. They are more likely to be grouped with players who are unprepared or unwilling to deal with the increased difficulty. In short, it's a lose lose situation where more often than not everyone's time just gets wasted.

My solution: add a new category of dungeons for the more difficult DLC ones. Fungal Grotto 1 for example should not be in the same category as say a Frostvault or Lair of Maarselok. This would be constructive and lead to a more effective Group & Activty finder. That way only players who are actually interested in doing the more difficult DLC Veteran Dungeons will be the ones doing them.

Raisin · November 2019

I'll say what I said in the last thread: If you get a random queue that excludes DLC dungeons, I get a queue that excludes base game dungeons. It's not fair if others get to say "I want a random dungeon but not that one" and I don't. Getting a base game dungeon is as excruciating for me as it is to get a DLC one for you. DLC dungeons do not feel long to me because I enjoy them (yes even with terrible PUGs time passes fast)... Base game dungeons just feel like they drag on forever just because I can't stand the dullness anymore.
It's still a terrible idea IMO, but I don't wanna repeat the same arguments every week when a new thread on this pops up. I just worry that if we lose the energy to disagree, ZOS will listen to the people demanding this to make it stop.

Jeremy · November 2019

Raisin wrote: »

I'll say what I said in the last thread: If you get a random queue that excludes DLC dungeons, I get a queue that excludes base game dungeons. It's not fair if others get to say "I want a random dungeon but not that one" and I don't. Getting a base game dungeon is as excruciating for me as it is to get a DLC one for you. DLC dungeons do not feel long to me because I enjoy them (yes even with terrible PUGs time passes fast)... Base game dungeons just feel like they drag on forever just because I can't stand the dullness anymore.
It's still a terrible idea IMO, but I don't wanna repeat the same arguments every week when a new thread on this pops up. I just worry that if we lose the energy to disagree, ZOS will listen to the people demanding this to make it stop.

That would be the effect of placing the more difficult Veteran DLC dungeons into their own category. Then players could random DLC dungeons specifically (instead of the base ones also).

So if you are player who is looking specifically to do Veteran DLC Dungeons, I don't really understand why you would be against this idea. I can't imagine you enjoy being grouped with players who bail as soon as they see it's a DLC dungeon. Trying to do veteran DLC dungeons through the Group & Activity finder specifically is a nightmare right now because you keep getting grouped with players who are only interested in doing a random base dungeon.

sidious00 · November 2019

Than why not an option to exclude either? Or a queue for non dlc and a random dlc queue?

Jeremy · November 2019

sidious00 wrote: »

Than why not an option to exclude either? Or a queue for non dlc and a random dlc queue?

Exclude would be an improvement.

But if they had their own category then players (like the above) would have the option to queue up for a random Veteran DLC as well, excluding the base dungeons (many of which are too easy for high level or experienced players).

idk · November 2019

Would you be wiling to receive lesser rewards for the lower risk if you could opt out of the DLC dungeons for the random?

After all, it is logical since risk vs reward is important.

Raisin · November 2019

Jeremy wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

I'll say what I said in the last thread: If you get a random queue that excludes DLC dungeons, I get a queue that excludes base game dungeons. It's not fair if others get to say "I want a random dungeon but not that one" and I don't. Getting a base game dungeon is as excruciating for me as it is to get a DLC one for you. DLC dungeons do not feel long to me because I enjoy them (yes even with terrible PUGs time passes fast)... Base game dungeons just feel like they drag on forever just because I can't stand the dullness anymore.
It's still a terrible idea IMO, but I don't wanna repeat the same arguments every week when a new thread on this pops up. I just worry that if we lose the energy to disagree, ZOS will listen to the people demanding this to make it stop.

That would be the effect of placing the more difficult Veteran DLC dungeons into their own category. Then players could random DLC dungeons specifically (instead of the base ones also).

So if you are player who is looking specifically to do Veteran DLC Dungeons, I don't really understand why you would be against this idea. I can't imagine you enjoy being grouped with players who bail as soon as they see it's a DLC dungeon.

So how many queues will there be then? One Random DLC, one Random Base, and one Actual Random? And then normal and vet versions of each? Ignoring the obvious fact that the dungeon finder would need to be fixed first (IMO that would make the whole discussion moot and what's the point then), it just seems excessive. It's either random or it's not random.

I don't really mind if people bail. It's one of the risks of pugging and you have to expect a certain wait time. I disagree with the fact that people want to get the reward for taking a risk (random) but without taking the risk. You are free to select all dungeons you like and let the game sort you into one of them. You don't get bonus EXP for it. It's a BONUS and you get it for fulfilling a certain criteria. You're not entitled to it and I think it's insane that people are so stubborn about getting the reward anyway that they have to lobby for the effort required for it to be reduced so it doesn't feel like an effort anymore. It's really okay to gain EXP doing something you enjoy instead. I think people need to consider adjusting their perspective so that the reward for random dungeons is more like an optional quest, and less like some kind of disguised login reward on their daily checklist.
As it stands right now, people can refuse a dungeon by taking the queue cooldown, or they can cheese the system by queueing with someone with a smaller pool of dungeons to draw from. This is something I've never seen anyone argue against and I think people should appreciate that they do have this option of tricking a randomizer to work in their favor.

I also think that the current system is healthier for populating DLC dungeons. If people are given the option, for the grey area pf people it will be tempting for many to exclude DLC dungeons. This would be fine from a perspective of choice, but we know that realistically we need to populate DLC dungeon groups. By grey area I mean people who are not inherently opposed to DLC dungeons. These people may not have chosen or rooted for a DLC dungeon, but they are willing to commit to it, and especially given a supportive group will enjoy it. We need these people, and we need the system to encourage them to fill DLC dungeon spots.

One suggestion I brought up in the recent thread about this was to consider removing the concept of the Daily Random entirely and replace it with a Daily First Dungeon instead, as that is what I believe most people really think of it as.
My other suggestion was specifically about ESO+ subscribers. Instead of simply enabling all (dungeon) DLC in their account, let them buy it from the crown store for 0 crowns -- or something less of a hassle, idk. But basically allow people who absolutely do not want to run DLC dungeons and don't want that DLC to refuse having it. I think that's very fair, as they truly did not ask for that content. People who do play the DLC dungeons however will still have it on their random queue, as it would not be fair for them to run it on their own time but keep it out of their random queue for an easy way out.

MattT1988 · November 2019

I’m fine with how it is, but it’s probably not a bad idea to split the queues. Only if you slightly nerf the rewards from queuing for a random vet base game dungeon and offer significantly higher rewards for queuing for the DLC random vet dungeons.

idk · November 2019

Raisin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

I'll say what I said in the last thread: If you get a random queue that excludes DLC dungeons, I get a queue that excludes base game dungeons. It's not fair if others get to say "I want a random dungeon but not that one" and I don't. Getting a base game dungeon is as excruciating for me as it is to get a DLC one for you. DLC dungeons do not feel long to me because I enjoy them (yes even with terrible PUGs time passes fast)... Base game dungeons just feel like they drag on forever just because I can't stand the dullness anymore.
It's still a terrible idea IMO, but I don't wanna repeat the same arguments every week when a new thread on this pops up. I just worry that if we lose the energy to disagree, ZOS will listen to the people demanding this to make it stop.

That would be the effect of placing the more difficult Veteran DLC dungeons into their own category. Then players could random DLC dungeons specifically (instead of the base ones also).

So if you are player who is looking specifically to do Veteran DLC Dungeons, I don't really understand why you would be against this idea. I can't imagine you enjoy being grouped with players who bail as soon as they see it's a DLC dungeon.

One suggestion I brought up in the recent thread about this was to consider removing the concept of the Daily Random entirely and replace it with a Daily First Dungeon instead, as that is what I believe most people really think of it as.
My other suggestion was specifically about ESO+ subscribers. Instead of simply enabling all (dungeon) DLC in their account, let them buy it from the crown store for 0 crowns -- or something less of a hassle, idk. But basically allow people who absolutely do not want to run DLC dungeons and don't want that DLC to refuse having it. I think that's very fair, as they truly did not ask for that content. People who do play the DLC dungeons however will still have it on their random queue, as it would not be fair for them to run it on their own time but keep it out of their random queue for an easy way out.

The idea of the random dungeon is so partial groups (which includes individuals) who are queued for a specific dungeon have a greater chance for others to fill their group. Obviously this includes DLC dungeons. So an idea where a player could just choose a specific dungeon would help at all since most would likely choose either a pledge dungeon or FG2.

What would work and is pretty straight forward is allow a means to opt out of the DLC dungeons. Offer a higher tier rewards for those who opt in and have it based on how many DLC dungeons they have access to. This also means someone who has chosen to now sub and has not bought any dungeon DLCs would automatically be opted out.

The better rewards would include gold quality drops, including jewelry The degree of the upgrade would be based on a point system or % of DLCs they have access to. This also makes sense because the risk vs reward is taken care of very well as it also allows players to opt out of DLCs as they choose to.

kargen27 · November 2019

Random is random. You want the extra rewards you gotta take a chance on getting a DLC dungeon.

That aside idk is right. The random dungeon queue helps fill the ranks for those seeking specific dungeons.

Raisin · November 2019

idk wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

I'll say what I said in the last thread: If you get a random queue that excludes DLC dungeons, I get a queue that excludes base game dungeons. It's not fair if others get to say "I want a random dungeon but not that one" and I don't. Getting a base game dungeon is as excruciating for me as it is to get a DLC one for you. DLC dungeons do not feel long to me because I enjoy them (yes even with terrible PUGs time passes fast)... Base game dungeons just feel like they drag on forever just because I can't stand the dullness anymore.
It's still a terrible idea IMO, but I don't wanna repeat the same arguments every week when a new thread on this pops up. I just worry that if we lose the energy to disagree, ZOS will listen to the people demanding this to make it stop.

That would be the effect of placing the more difficult Veteran DLC dungeons into their own category. Then players could random DLC dungeons specifically (instead of the base ones also).

So if you are player who is looking specifically to do Veteran DLC Dungeons, I don't really understand why you would be against this idea. I can't imagine you enjoy being grouped with players who bail as soon as they see it's a DLC dungeon.

One suggestion I brought up in the recent thread about this was to consider removing the concept of the Daily Random entirely and replace it with a Daily First Dungeon instead, as that is what I believe most people really think of it as.
My other suggestion was specifically about ESO+ subscribers. Instead of simply enabling all (dungeon) DLC in their account, let them buy it from the crown store for 0 crowns -- or something less of a hassle, idk. But basically allow people who absolutely do not want to run DLC dungeons and don't want that DLC to refuse having it. I think that's very fair, as they truly did not ask for that content. People who do play the DLC dungeons however will still have it on their random queue, as it would not be fair for them to run it on their own time but keep it out of their random queue for an easy way out.

The idea of the random dungeon is so partial groups (which includes individuals) who are queued for a specific dungeon have a greater chance for others to fill their group. Obviously this includes DLC dungeons. So an idea where a player could just choose a specific dungeon would help at all since most would likely choose either a pledge dungeon or FG2.

What would work and is pretty straight forward is allow a means to opt out of the DLC dungeons. Offer a higher tier rewards for those who opt in and have it based on how many DLC dungeons they have access to. This also means someone who has chosen to now sub and has not bought any dungeon DLCs would automatically be opted out.

The better rewards would include gold quality drops, including jewelry The degree of the upgrade would be based on a point system or % of DLCs they have access to. This also makes sense because the risk vs reward is taken care of very well as it also allows players to opt out of DLCs as they choose to.

I should probably have specified that I wouldn't get rid of the rewards (maybe just the smaller one?) for random dungeons. I would just move the big once-per-day one so people are happy. As you can probably tell from my post it's not really something I'm into either, it's more of a "would this make people feel better" kind of thing. :P

I think any source for gold gear, including jewelry probably needs to be considered carefully. It honestly seems like much too big of a reward to me (I understand you want that as an incentive, but I just see it as always being imbalanced in one way or the other) and I wouldn't stray too much much the current setup where the big reward the bonus EXP.

I'm not sure that the system needs more/higher rewards in general. I think people need to realize that the bonus EXP is payment for a service fulfilled and that they need to be willing to put something in to get their return. And that it's really okay to just not get it.

Jeremy · November 2019

Raisin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

I'll say what I said in the last thread: If you get a random queue that excludes DLC dungeons, I get a queue that excludes base game dungeons. It's not fair if others get to say "I want a random dungeon but not that one" and I don't. Getting a base game dungeon is as excruciating for me as it is to get a DLC one for you. DLC dungeons do not feel long to me because I enjoy them (yes even with terrible PUGs time passes fast)... Base game dungeons just feel like they drag on forever just because I can't stand the dullness anymore.
It's still a terrible idea IMO, but I don't wanna repeat the same arguments every week when a new thread on this pops up. I just worry that if we lose the energy to disagree, ZOS will listen to the people demanding this to make it stop.

That would be the effect of placing the more difficult Veteran DLC dungeons into their own category. Then players could random DLC dungeons specifically (instead of the base ones also).

So if you are player who is looking specifically to do Veteran DLC Dungeons, I don't really understand why you would be against this idea. I can't imagine you enjoy being grouped with players who bail as soon as they see it's a DLC dungeon.

So how many queues will there be then? One Random DLC, one Random Base, and one Actual Random? And then normal and vet versions of each? Ignoring the obvious fact that the dungeon finder would need to be fixed first (IMO that would make the whole discussion moot and what's the point then), it just seems excessive. It's either random or it's not random.

I don't really mind if people bail. It's one of the risks of pugging and you have to expect a certain wait time. I disagree with the fact that people want to get the reward for taking a risk (random) but without taking the risk. You are free to select all dungeons you like and let the game sort you into one of them. You don't get bonus EXP for it. It's a BONUS and you get it for fulfilling a certain criteria. You're not entitled to it and I think it's insane that people are so stubborn about getting the reward anyway that they have to lobby for the effort required for it to be reduced so it doesn't feel like an effort anymore. It's really okay to gain EXP doing something you enjoy instead. I think people need to consider adjusting their perspective so that the reward for random dungeons is more like an optional quest, and less like some kind of disguised login reward on their daily checklist.
As it stands right now, people can refuse a dungeon by taking the queue cooldown, or they can cheese the system by queueing with someone with a smaller pool of dungeons to draw from. This is something I've never seen anyone argue against and I think people should appreciate that they do have this option of tricking a randomizer to work in their favor.

I also think that the current system is healthier for populating DLC dungeons. If people are given the option, for the grey area pf people it will be tempting for many to exclude DLC dungeons. This would be fine from a perspective of choice, but we know that realistically we need to populate DLC dungeon groups. By grey area I mean people who are not inherently opposed to DLC dungeons. These people may not have chosen or rooted for a DLC dungeon, but they are willing to commit to it, and especially given a supportive group will enjoy it. We need these people, and we need the system to encourage them to fill DLC dungeon spots.

One suggestion I brought up in the recent thread about this was to consider removing the concept of the Daily Random entirely and replace it with a Daily First Dungeon instead, as that is what I believe most people really think of it as.
My other suggestion was specifically about ESO+ subscribers. Instead of simply enabling all (dungeon) DLC in their account, let them buy it from the crown store for 0 crowns -- or something less of a hassle, idk. But basically allow people who absolutely do not want to run DLC dungeons and don't want that DLC to refuse having it. I think that's very fair, as they truly did not ask for that content. People who do play the DLC dungeons however will still have it on their random queue, as it would not be fair for them to run it on their own time but keep it out of their random queue for an easy way out.

We already have separate random queues for normal and veteran. I don't see why it would be excessive to add one more for the higher tier DLC dungeons. The jump in challenge from normal mode to say a Fungal Groto 1 on Veteran is far less than the distance to one of the more difficult Veteran DLC dungeons. So from a game play point of view it makes sense

I also disagree that the current method helps to "populate" DLC dungeons. I believe it has the opposite effect. It discourages players who are actually looking do DLC dungeons on veteran because they frequently (and I would argue more often than not) get grouped with players who don't want to do them, which makes the group interaction in such a case a headache and waste of time.

Jeremy · November 2019

idk wrote: »

Would you be wiling to receive lesser rewards for the lower risk if you could opt out of the DLC dungeons for the random?

After all, it is logical since risk vs reward is important.

I have no problems with them giving better rewards. Honestly the DLC pledges should already give better rewards. So the new random I am proposing probably should as well. Though just simply being grouped with other players who are actually interested in doing DLC dungeons (instead of those who are just looking for a base dungeon and will be eager to drop) would be a reward in and of itself.

Jeremy · November 2019

kargen27 wrote: »

Random is random. You want the extra rewards you gotta take a chance on getting a DLC dungeon.

That aside idk is right. The random dungeon queue helps fill the ranks for those seeking specific dungeons.

Yeah, it helps fill the ranks with people who don't want to do the dungeon in the first place and are likely to drop as soon as they see it's a hard DLC dungeon.

That helps so much let me tell you...

If you want to populate a dungeon, it needs to be with a population that is actually interested in being there. Otherwise it's pointless. Not to mention there is no "chance" they take anyway. They usually just drop or leave early, which wastes everyone's time.

Not to mention if "random is random"... why not throw all the normal dungeons there as well? You can't support dividing the random up along normal and veteran lines and then say it's bad to do when it comes to DLC dungeons (which have a greater skill gap than many Normal ~ Veterans do). So that seems to me to be a glaring inconsistency in your "random is random" argument. Unless you actually are proposing normal dungeons should be thrown into the random mix as well.

Raisin · November 2019

Jeremy wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

I'll say what I said in the last thread: If you get a random queue that excludes DLC dungeons, I get a queue that excludes base game dungeons. It's not fair if others get to say "I want a random dungeon but not that one" and I don't. Getting a base game dungeon is as excruciating for me as it is to get a DLC one for you. DLC dungeons do not feel long to me because I enjoy them (yes even with terrible PUGs time passes fast)... Base game dungeons just feel like they drag on forever just because I can't stand the dullness anymore.
It's still a terrible idea IMO, but I don't wanna repeat the same arguments every week when a new thread on this pops up. I just worry that if we lose the energy to disagree, ZOS will listen to the people demanding this to make it stop.

That would be the effect of placing the more difficult Veteran DLC dungeons into their own category. Then players could random DLC dungeons specifically (instead of the base ones also).

So if you are player who is looking specifically to do Veteran DLC Dungeons, I don't really understand why you would be against this idea. I can't imagine you enjoy being grouped with players who bail as soon as they see it's a DLC dungeon.

So how many queues will there be then? One Random DLC, one Random Base, and one Actual Random? And then normal and vet versions of each? Ignoring the obvious fact that the dungeon finder would need to be fixed first (IMO that would make the whole discussion moot and what's the point then), it just seems excessive. It's either random or it's not random.

I don't really mind if people bail. It's one of the risks of pugging and you have to expect a certain wait time. I disagree with the fact that people want to get the reward for taking a risk (random) but without taking the risk. You are free to select all dungeons you like and let the game sort you into one of them. You don't get bonus EXP for it. It's a BONUS and you get it for fulfilling a certain criteria. You're not entitled to it and I think it's insane that people are so stubborn about getting the reward anyway that they have to lobby for the effort required for it to be reduced so it doesn't feel like an effort anymore. It's really okay to gain EXP doing something you enjoy instead. I think people need to consider adjusting their perspective so that the reward for random dungeons is more like an optional quest, and less like some kind of disguised login reward on their daily checklist.
As it stands right now, people can refuse a dungeon by taking the queue cooldown, or they can cheese the system by queueing with someone with a smaller pool of dungeons to draw from. This is something I've never seen anyone argue against and I think people should appreciate that they do have this option of tricking a randomizer to work in their favor.

I also think that the current system is healthier for populating DLC dungeons. If people are given the option, for the grey area pf people it will be tempting for many to exclude DLC dungeons. This would be fine from a perspective of choice, but we know that realistically we need to populate DLC dungeon groups. By grey area I mean people who are not inherently opposed to DLC dungeons. These people may not have chosen or rooted for a DLC dungeon, but they are willing to commit to it, and especially given a supportive group will enjoy it. We need these people, and we need the system to encourage them to fill DLC dungeon spots.

One suggestion I brought up in the recent thread about this was to consider removing the concept of the Daily Random entirely and replace it with a Daily First Dungeon instead, as that is what I believe most people really think of it as.
My other suggestion was specifically about ESO+ subscribers. Instead of simply enabling all (dungeon) DLC in their account, let them buy it from the crown store for 0 crowns -- or something less of a hassle, idk. But basically allow people who absolutely do not want to run DLC dungeons and don't want that DLC to refuse having it. I think that's very fair, as they truly did not ask for that content. People who do play the DLC dungeons however will still have it on their random queue, as it would not be fair for them to run it on their own time but keep it out of their random queue for an easy way out.

We already have separate random queues for normal and veteran. I don't see why it would be excessive to add one more for the higher tier DLC dungeons. The jump in challenge from normal mode to say a Fungal Groto 1 on Veteran is far less than the distance to one of the more difficult Veteran DLC dungeons. So from a game play point of view it makes sense

I also disagree that the current method helps to "populate" DLC dungeons. I believe it has the opposite effect. It discourages players who are actually looking do DLC dungeons on veteran because they frequently (and I would argue more often than not) get grouped with players who don't want to do them, which makes the group interaction in such a case a headache.

Yeah I didn't really consider that the non-DLC queue already exists, so that was a brain fail on my part.

I have pugged a crap ton of DLC dungeons and the times that a person bailed on the group are fairly rare. Anecdotal evidence there, of course. It's probably worse on normal, as people who want a quick run often don't queue for random vet in the first place. But that doesn't change the fact that the current system pushes the 'undecided' group into running DLC dungeons, while the proposed system would do the opposite. And we really need people to be pushed more towards DLC dungeons. In my opinion you have an exaggerated view of the amount of people who just ditch a random DLC dungeon, and I also think you don't realize how many of the players who stay were people who got the DLC as their random. Not to mention it's okay for them to leave. It's not the end of the world.

In the end, the bottom line remains that each person has absolute control over the dungeons they queue for. No one is forcing anyone. The EXP bonus is specifically awarded for choosing to relinquish that control and risk getting an option they really hate. That is the point of random, and that's why we get something for it. It's the incentive. Either the incentive is large enough for you to take the risk, or it's not worth it and you queue for a limited dungeon selection instead. You don't get the best of both worlds.
Running a "fast and easy" random dungeon is an exciting possibility, but it is not a right.

Jeremy · November 2019

Raisin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

I'll say what I said in the last thread: If you get a random queue that excludes DLC dungeons, I get a queue that excludes base game dungeons. It's not fair if others get to say "I want a random dungeon but not that one" and I don't. Getting a base game dungeon is as excruciating for me as it is to get a DLC one for you. DLC dungeons do not feel long to me because I enjoy them (yes even with terrible PUGs time passes fast)... Base game dungeons just feel like they drag on forever just because I can't stand the dullness anymore.
It's still a terrible idea IMO, but I don't wanna repeat the same arguments every week when a new thread on this pops up. I just worry that if we lose the energy to disagree, ZOS will listen to the people demanding this to make it stop.

That would be the effect of placing the more difficult Veteran DLC dungeons into their own category. Then players could random DLC dungeons specifically (instead of the base ones also).

So if you are player who is looking specifically to do Veteran DLC Dungeons, I don't really understand why you would be against this idea. I can't imagine you enjoy being grouped with players who bail as soon as they see it's a DLC dungeon.

So how many queues will there be then? One Random DLC, one Random Base, and one Actual Random? And then normal and vet versions of each? Ignoring the obvious fact that the dungeon finder would need to be fixed first (IMO that would make the whole discussion moot and what's the point then), it just seems excessive. It's either random or it's not random.

I don't really mind if people bail. It's one of the risks of pugging and you have to expect a certain wait time. I disagree with the fact that people want to get the reward for taking a risk (random) but without taking the risk. You are free to select all dungeons you like and let the game sort you into one of them. You don't get bonus EXP for it. It's a BONUS and you get it for fulfilling a certain criteria. You're not entitled to it and I think it's insane that people are so stubborn about getting the reward anyway that they have to lobby for the effort required for it to be reduced so it doesn't feel like an effort anymore. It's really okay to gain EXP doing something you enjoy instead. I think people need to consider adjusting their perspective so that the reward for random dungeons is more like an optional quest, and less like some kind of disguised login reward on their daily checklist.
As it stands right now, people can refuse a dungeon by taking the queue cooldown, or they can cheese the system by queueing with someone with a smaller pool of dungeons to draw from. This is something I've never seen anyone argue against and I think people should appreciate that they do have this option of tricking a randomizer to work in their favor.

I also think that the current system is healthier for populating DLC dungeons. If people are given the option, for the grey area pf people it will be tempting for many to exclude DLC dungeons. This would be fine from a perspective of choice, but we know that realistically we need to populate DLC dungeon groups. By grey area I mean people who are not inherently opposed to DLC dungeons. These people may not have chosen or rooted for a DLC dungeon, but they are willing to commit to it, and especially given a supportive group will enjoy it. We need these people, and we need the system to encourage them to fill DLC dungeon spots.

One suggestion I brought up in the recent thread about this was to consider removing the concept of the Daily Random entirely and replace it with a Daily First Dungeon instead, as that is what I believe most people really think of it as.
My other suggestion was specifically about ESO+ subscribers. Instead of simply enabling all (dungeon) DLC in their account, let them buy it from the crown store for 0 crowns -- or something less of a hassle, idk. But basically allow people who absolutely do not want to run DLC dungeons and don't want that DLC to refuse having it. I think that's very fair, as they truly did not ask for that content. People who do play the DLC dungeons however will still have it on their random queue, as it would not be fair for them to run it on their own time but keep it out of their random queue for an easy way out.

We already have separate random queues for normal and veteran. I don't see why it would be excessive to add one more for the higher tier DLC dungeons. The jump in challenge from normal mode to say a Fungal Groto 1 on Veteran is far less than the distance to one of the more difficult Veteran DLC dungeons. So from a game play point of view it makes sense

I also disagree that the current method helps to "populate" DLC dungeons. I believe it has the opposite effect. It discourages players who are actually looking do DLC dungeons on veteran because they frequently (and I would argue more often than not) get grouped with players who don't want to do them, which makes the group interaction in such a case a headache.

Yeah I didn't really consider that the non-DLC queue already exists, so that was a brain fail on my part.

I have pugged a crap ton of DLC dungeons and the times that a person bailed on the group are fairly rare. Anecdotal evidence there, of course. It's probably worse on normal, as people who want a quick run often don't queue for random vet in the first place. But that doesn't change the fact that the current system pushes the 'undecided' group into running DLC dungeons, while the proposed system would do the opposite. And we really need people to be pushed more towards DLC dungeons.

In the end, the bottom line remains that each person has absolute control over the dungeons they queue for. No one is forcing anyone. The EXP bonus is specifically awarded for choosing to relinquish that control and risk getting an option they really hate. That is the point of random, and that's why we get something for it. It's the incentive. Either the incentive is large enough for you to take the risk, or it's not worth it and you queue for a limited dungeon selection instead. You don't get the best of both worlds.
Running a "fast and easy" random dungeon is an exciting possibility, but it is not a right.

This misses the point.

I am not talking about what people's "rights" are or whether or not people have control over what dungeons they queue up for. I am talking about ways to improve the efficiency of the Group & Activity finder. The current "incentives" are obviously not enough considering how frequently people simply bail or leave as soon as they see a difficult DLC dungeon come up.

This is also not a productive situation for those players who actually are wanting to do specific DLC dungeons. Those players who specifically queue up for those specific DLC veteran dungeons and have exercised "absolute control" over which dungeon he or she queues up for (as you commented in your post) and yet they still wind up being grouped with other players who are just trying to do a random base dungeon. So by bringing that up you are highlighting why the current system doesn't work effectively. These players aren't trying to have the "best of both worlds". They are merely trying to get a group for a specific DLC Veteran Dungeon but are instead being grouped with players who are only interested in doing a base game vet random.

Grandma · November 2019

I have joined queue for "random veteran dungeon" two times in my life.

once was last april. I got Ruins of Mazzatun; it took us 3 hours, as i was healing, nobody knew the mechanics, and group dps was about 20k peaked, usually around 15k. It was horrible and I never wanted to go back. So i vowed to never do a random vet ever again.

the second time was last night actually. I was with a friend; we had tried this new setup where I was templar tank/offhealer and they were dps/offhealing, so we figured she could queue as healer and we could go faster since most healers we queue with are mediocre at best anyway. It would have worked fine, had it not been march of sacrifices with a duo dps who had 0 idea what they were doing, did 0 dps [my friend carried the whole dungeon], and refused to resurrect anyone, even each other, for no tangible reason. Oh, and it was my first time tanking vet content. Made the mistake of thinking it'd be one of the other 30+ whatever normal dungeons that aren't a blatant pain in the ass to do for no real reason. My off healing wasn't even bad, we did fine; they just did no dps, and would do things like run around during hunts and kill themselves, or both say they're slotting crushing and then never once interrupt the indrik at range when it respawns from hunt and i had to run up to it.

anyway, I'm sick of the inconsistency of dungeons. ALL veteran dungeons should be hard, ALL normal dungeons should be easy. Not this weird awful gradient we have now where all normal dungeons require a collective 2 brain cells, and then most of the vet dungeons require a little effort then suddenly you have vet dlc dungeons where you better have 3+ hours of free time if you're pugging and pray to god they have any dps because it'll take all of the effort in the game to do, let alone the HM stuff.

Raisin · November 2019

Jeremy wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

I'll say what I said in the last thread: If you get a random queue that excludes DLC dungeons, I get a queue that excludes base game dungeons. It's not fair if others get to say "I want a random dungeon but not that one" and I don't. Getting a base game dungeon is as excruciating for me as it is to get a DLC one for you. DLC dungeons do not feel long to me because I enjoy them (yes even with terrible PUGs time passes fast)... Base game dungeons just feel like they drag on forever just because I can't stand the dullness anymore.
It's still a terrible idea IMO, but I don't wanna repeat the same arguments every week when a new thread on this pops up. I just worry that if we lose the energy to disagree, ZOS will listen to the people demanding this to make it stop.

That would be the effect of placing the more difficult Veteran DLC dungeons into their own category. Then players could random DLC dungeons specifically (instead of the base ones also).

So if you are player who is looking specifically to do Veteran DLC Dungeons, I don't really understand why you would be against this idea. I can't imagine you enjoy being grouped with players who bail as soon as they see it's a DLC dungeon.

So how many queues will there be then? One Random DLC, one Random Base, and one Actual Random? And then normal and vet versions of each? Ignoring the obvious fact that the dungeon finder would need to be fixed first (IMO that would make the whole discussion moot and what's the point then), it just seems excessive. It's either random or it's not random.

I don't really mind if people bail. It's one of the risks of pugging and you have to expect a certain wait time. I disagree with the fact that people want to get the reward for taking a risk (random) but without taking the risk. You are free to select all dungeons you like and let the game sort you into one of them. You don't get bonus EXP for it. It's a BONUS and you get it for fulfilling a certain criteria. You're not entitled to it and I think it's insane that people are so stubborn about getting the reward anyway that they have to lobby for the effort required for it to be reduced so it doesn't feel like an effort anymore. It's really okay to gain EXP doing something you enjoy instead. I think people need to consider adjusting their perspective so that the reward for random dungeons is more like an optional quest, and less like some kind of disguised login reward on their daily checklist.
As it stands right now, people can refuse a dungeon by taking the queue cooldown, or they can cheese the system by queueing with someone with a smaller pool of dungeons to draw from. This is something I've never seen anyone argue against and I think people should appreciate that they do have this option of tricking a randomizer to work in their favor.

I also think that the current system is healthier for populating DLC dungeons. If people are given the option, for the grey area pf people it will be tempting for many to exclude DLC dungeons. This would be fine from a perspective of choice, but we know that realistically we need to populate DLC dungeon groups. By grey area I mean people who are not inherently opposed to DLC dungeons. These people may not have chosen or rooted for a DLC dungeon, but they are willing to commit to it, and especially given a supportive group will enjoy it. We need these people, and we need the system to encourage them to fill DLC dungeon spots.

One suggestion I brought up in the recent thread about this was to consider removing the concept of the Daily Random entirely and replace it with a Daily First Dungeon instead, as that is what I believe most people really think of it as.
My other suggestion was specifically about ESO+ subscribers. Instead of simply enabling all (dungeon) DLC in their account, let them buy it from the crown store for 0 crowns -- or something less of a hassle, idk. But basically allow people who absolutely do not want to run DLC dungeons and don't want that DLC to refuse having it. I think that's very fair, as they truly did not ask for that content. People who do play the DLC dungeons however will still have it on their random queue, as it would not be fair for them to run it on their own time but keep it out of their random queue for an easy way out.

We already have separate random queues for normal and veteran. I don't see why it would be excessive to add one more for the higher tier DLC dungeons. The jump in challenge from normal mode to say a Fungal Groto 1 on Veteran is far less than the distance to one of the more difficult Veteran DLC dungeons. So from a game play point of view it makes sense

I also disagree that the current method helps to "populate" DLC dungeons. I believe it has the opposite effect. It discourages players who are actually looking do DLC dungeons on veteran because they frequently (and I would argue more often than not) get grouped with players who don't want to do them, which makes the group interaction in such a case a headache.

Yeah I didn't really consider that the non-DLC queue already exists, so that was a brain fail on my part.

I have pugged a crap ton of DLC dungeons and the times that a person bailed on the group are fairly rare. Anecdotal evidence there, of course. It's probably worse on normal, as people who want a quick run often don't queue for random vet in the first place. But that doesn't change the fact that the current system pushes the 'undecided' group into running DLC dungeons, while the proposed system would do the opposite. And we really need people to be pushed more towards DLC dungeons.

In the end, the bottom line remains that each person has absolute control over the dungeons they queue for. No one is forcing anyone. The EXP bonus is specifically awarded for choosing to relinquish that control and risk getting an option they really hate. That is the point of random, and that's why we get something for it. It's the incentive. Either the incentive is large enough for you to take the risk, or it's not worth it and you queue for a limited dungeon selection instead. You don't get the best of both worlds.
Running a "fast and easy" random dungeon is an exciting possibility, but it is not a right.

This misses the point.

I am not talking about what people's "rights" are or whether or not people have control over what dungeons they queue up for. I am talking about ways to improve the efficiency of the Group % Activity finder. The current "incentives" are obviously not enough considering how frequently people simply bail or leave as soon as they see a difficult DLC dungeon come up.

This is also not a productive situation for those players who actually are wanting to do specific DLC dungeons. Those players who specifically queue up for those specific dungeons and exercise complete control over which dungeon he or she queues up for (as you point out in your post) still winds up being grouped with other players who are just trying to do a random base dungeon under the current method. So by bringing that up you highlighting why the current system doesn't work effectively.

Well then you're just looking to add incentives; adding a lower reward queue for base game dungeons won't do that in any way. That would actually snip that queue idea completely, and leave us with only adding a hardcore DLC only queue with better rewards. Or a smart reward system that rewards you based on the dungeon you run.

I've explained twice now why it's still better for those people than what you're proposing (and my disapproval of how you keep implying that queueing for a DLC PUG means burning through a series of people who ditch you upon entering the dungeon. I'm willing to accept that I've been lucky, but the image you're painting just isn't realistic.) Nothing more I can do. Bolding and italicizing a bunch of words doesn't change the fact that you seem to barely have read what I said and aren't bringing up any good points.

Jeremy · November 2019

Grandma wrote: »

I have joined queue for "random veteran dungeon" two times in my life.

once was last april. I got Ruins of Mazzatun; it took us 3 hours, as i was healing, nobody knew the mechanics, and group dps was about 20k peaked, usually around 15k. It was horrible and I never wanted to go back. So i vowed to never do a random vet ever again.

the second time was last night actually. I was with a friend; we had tried this new setup where I was templar tank/offhealer and they were dps/offhealing, so we figured she could queue as healer and we could go faster since most healers we queue with are mediocre at best anyway. It would have worked fine, had it not been march of sacrifices with a duo dps who had 0 idea what they were doing, did 0 dps [my friend carried the whole dungeon], and refused to resurrect anyone, even each other, for no tangible reason. Oh, and it was my first time tanking vet content. Made the mistake of thinking it'd be one of the other 30+ whatever normal dungeons that aren't a blatant pain in the ass to do for no real reason. My off healing wasn't even bad, we did fine; they just did no dps, and would do things like run around during hunts and kill themselves, or both say they're slotting crushing and then never once interrupt the indrik at range when it respawns from hunt and i had to run up to it.

anyway, I'm sick of the inconsistency of dungeons. ALL veteran dungeons should be hard, ALL normal dungeons should be easy. Not this weird awful gradient we have now where all normal dungeons require a collective 2 brain cells, and then most of the vet dungeons require a little effort then suddenly you have vet dlc dungeons where you better have 3+ hours of free time if you're pugging and pray to god they have any dps because it'll take all of the effort in the game to do, let alone the HM stuff.

You aren't wrong, and that's a huge part of the problem here - the massive inconsistency and erratic challenge spikes, particularly between the more difficult DLC dungeons on Veteran as compared to the base game ones.

So that would be another way to fix this problem: to even out the challenge through-out all the Veteran Content. That way it was consistent and players who queue up for a random Veteran couldn't pick and choose the easy ones from the hard ones to get the bonus.

Jeremy · November 2019

Raisin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

I'll say what I said in the last thread: If you get a random queue that excludes DLC dungeons, I get a queue that excludes base game dungeons. It's not fair if others get to say "I want a random dungeon but not that one" and I don't. Getting a base game dungeon is as excruciating for me as it is to get a DLC one for you. DLC dungeons do not feel long to me because I enjoy them (yes even with terrible PUGs time passes fast)... Base game dungeons just feel like they drag on forever just because I can't stand the dullness anymore.
It's still a terrible idea IMO, but I don't wanna repeat the same arguments every week when a new thread on this pops up. I just worry that if we lose the energy to disagree, ZOS will listen to the people demanding this to make it stop.

That would be the effect of placing the more difficult Veteran DLC dungeons into their own category. Then players could random DLC dungeons specifically (instead of the base ones also).

So if you are player who is looking specifically to do Veteran DLC Dungeons, I don't really understand why you would be against this idea. I can't imagine you enjoy being grouped with players who bail as soon as they see it's a DLC dungeon.

So how many queues will there be then? One Random DLC, one Random Base, and one Actual Random? And then normal and vet versions of each? Ignoring the obvious fact that the dungeon finder would need to be fixed first (IMO that would make the whole discussion moot and what's the point then), it just seems excessive. It's either random or it's not random.

I don't really mind if people bail. It's one of the risks of pugging and you have to expect a certain wait time. I disagree with the fact that people want to get the reward for taking a risk (random) but without taking the risk. You are free to select all dungeons you like and let the game sort you into one of them. You don't get bonus EXP for it. It's a BONUS and you get it for fulfilling a certain criteria. You're not entitled to it and I think it's insane that people are so stubborn about getting the reward anyway that they have to lobby for the effort required for it to be reduced so it doesn't feel like an effort anymore. It's really okay to gain EXP doing something you enjoy instead. I think people need to consider adjusting their perspective so that the reward for random dungeons is more like an optional quest, and less like some kind of disguised login reward on their daily checklist.
As it stands right now, people can refuse a dungeon by taking the queue cooldown, or they can cheese the system by queueing with someone with a smaller pool of dungeons to draw from. This is something I've never seen anyone argue against and I think people should appreciate that they do have this option of tricking a randomizer to work in their favor.

I also think that the current system is healthier for populating DLC dungeons. If people are given the option, for the grey area pf people it will be tempting for many to exclude DLC dungeons. This would be fine from a perspective of choice, but we know that realistically we need to populate DLC dungeon groups. By grey area I mean people who are not inherently opposed to DLC dungeons. These people may not have chosen or rooted for a DLC dungeon, but they are willing to commit to it, and especially given a supportive group will enjoy it. We need these people, and we need the system to encourage them to fill DLC dungeon spots.

One suggestion I brought up in the recent thread about this was to consider removing the concept of the Daily Random entirely and replace it with a Daily First Dungeon instead, as that is what I believe most people really think of it as.
My other suggestion was specifically about ESO+ subscribers. Instead of simply enabling all (dungeon) DLC in their account, let them buy it from the crown store for 0 crowns -- or something less of a hassle, idk. But basically allow people who absolutely do not want to run DLC dungeons and don't want that DLC to refuse having it. I think that's very fair, as they truly did not ask for that content. People who do play the DLC dungeons however will still have it on their random queue, as it would not be fair for them to run it on their own time but keep it out of their random queue for an easy way out.

We already have separate random queues for normal and veteran. I don't see why it would be excessive to add one more for the higher tier DLC dungeons. The jump in challenge from normal mode to say a Fungal Groto 1 on Veteran is far less than the distance to one of the more difficult Veteran DLC dungeons. So from a game play point of view it makes sense

I also disagree that the current method helps to "populate" DLC dungeons. I believe it has the opposite effect. It discourages players who are actually looking do DLC dungeons on veteran because they frequently (and I would argue more often than not) get grouped with players who don't want to do them, which makes the group interaction in such a case a headache.

Yeah I didn't really consider that the non-DLC queue already exists, so that was a brain fail on my part.

I have pugged a crap ton of DLC dungeons and the times that a person bailed on the group are fairly rare. Anecdotal evidence there, of course. It's probably worse on normal, as people who want a quick run often don't queue for random vet in the first place. But that doesn't change the fact that the current system pushes the 'undecided' group into running DLC dungeons, while the proposed system would do the opposite. And we really need people to be pushed more towards DLC dungeons.

In the end, the bottom line remains that each person has absolute control over the dungeons they queue for. No one is forcing anyone. The EXP bonus is specifically awarded for choosing to relinquish that control and risk getting an option they really hate. That is the point of random, and that's why we get something for it. It's the incentive. Either the incentive is large enough for you to take the risk, or it's not worth it and you queue for a limited dungeon selection instead. You don't get the best of both worlds.
Running a "fast and easy" random dungeon is an exciting possibility, but it is not a right.

This misses the point.

I am not talking about what people's "rights" are or whether or not people have control over what dungeons they queue up for. I am talking about ways to improve the efficiency of the Group % Activity finder. The current "incentives" are obviously not enough considering how frequently people simply bail or leave as soon as they see a difficult DLC dungeon come up.

This is also not a productive situation for those players who actually are wanting to do specific DLC dungeons. Those players who specifically queue up for those specific dungeons and exercise complete control over which dungeon he or she queues up for (as you point out in your post) still winds up being grouped with other players who are just trying to do a random base dungeon under the current method. So by bringing that up you highlighting why the current system doesn't work effectively.

Well then you're just looking to add incentives; adding a lower reward queue for base game dungeons won't do that in any way. That would actually snip that queue idea completely, and leave us with only adding a hardcore DLC only queue with better rewards. Or a smart reward system that rewards you based on the dungeon you run.

I've explained twice now why it's still better for those people than what you're proposing (and my disapproval of how you keep implying that queueing for a DLC PUG means burning through a series of people who ditch you upon entering the dungeon. I'm willing to accept that I've been lucky, but the image you're painting just isn't realistic.) Nothing more I can do. Bolding and italicizing a bunch of words doesn't change the fact that you seem to barely have read what I said and aren't bringing up any good points.

I disagree with you that it benefits people who are trying to do specific DLC dungeons because you do have to burn through a series of people who have no interest in doing DLC content and are just looking for a easy base game random. You say this is an exaggeration, but it's really isn't. It's frequently what happens to me. As soon as they see the dungeon they start dropping like flies. I would much rather wait in a queue for a longer period of time then join a group that plans to quit at the beginning over and over. And I believe that is a very good point.

But what I was saying in my last post was that having the ability to control what dungeons you queue up for is meaningless if the queue fills your group up with players who have no interest in doing the dungeon you queued up for in the first place.

idk · November 2019

Raisin wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

I'll say what I said in the last thread: If you get a random queue that excludes DLC dungeons, I get a queue that excludes base game dungeons. It's not fair if others get to say "I want a random dungeon but not that one" and I don't. Getting a base game dungeon is as excruciating for me as it is to get a DLC one for you. DLC dungeons do not feel long to me because I enjoy them (yes even with terrible PUGs time passes fast)... Base game dungeons just feel like they drag on forever just because I can't stand the dullness anymore.
It's still a terrible idea IMO, but I don't wanna repeat the same arguments every week when a new thread on this pops up. I just worry that if we lose the energy to disagree, ZOS will listen to the people demanding this to make it stop.

That would be the effect of placing the more difficult Veteran DLC dungeons into their own category. Then players could random DLC dungeons specifically (instead of the base ones also).

So if you are player who is looking specifically to do Veteran DLC Dungeons, I don't really understand why you would be against this idea. I can't imagine you enjoy being grouped with players who bail as soon as they see it's a DLC dungeon.

One suggestion I brought up in the recent thread about this was to consider removing the concept of the Daily Random entirely and replace it with a Daily First Dungeon instead, as that is what I believe most people really think of it as.
My other suggestion was specifically about ESO+ subscribers. Instead of simply enabling all (dungeon) DLC in their account, let them buy it from the crown store for 0 crowns -- or something less of a hassle, idk. But basically allow people who absolutely do not want to run DLC dungeons and don't want that DLC to refuse having it. I think that's very fair, as they truly did not ask for that content. People who do play the DLC dungeons however will still have it on their random queue, as it would not be fair for them to run it on their own time but keep it out of their random queue for an easy way out.

The idea of the random dungeon is so partial groups (which includes individuals) who are queued for a specific dungeon have a greater chance for others to fill their group. Obviously this includes DLC dungeons. So an idea where a player could just choose a specific dungeon would help at all since most would likely choose either a pledge dungeon or FG2.

What would work and is pretty straight forward is allow a means to opt out of the DLC dungeons. Offer a higher tier rewards for those who opt in and have it based on how many DLC dungeons they have access to. This also means someone who has chosen to now sub and has not bought any dungeon DLCs would automatically be opted out.

The better rewards would include gold quality drops, including jewelry The degree of the upgrade would be based on a point system or % of DLCs they have access to. This also makes sense because the risk vs reward is taken care of very well as it also allows players to opt out of DLCs as they choose to.

I should probably have specified that I wouldn't get rid of the rewards (maybe just the smaller one?) for random dungeons. I would just move the big once-per-day one so people are happy.

The idea of the reward for doing a random was not specifically to make players happy because they were getting a reward. It was to encourage use of the GF and to help fill groups for people queuing up with partial groups including for specific dungeons.

I was pointing out your suggesting mostly removes the incentive and eliminates most of the overall intended benefit.

Further, there already is a reward for doing a dungeon that is not random. That is the pledges.

Raisin · November 2019

Jeremy wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

I'll say what I said in the last thread: If you get a random queue that excludes DLC dungeons, I get a queue that excludes base game dungeons. It's not fair if others get to say "I want a random dungeon but not that one" and I don't. Getting a base game dungeon is as excruciating for me as it is to get a DLC one for you. DLC dungeons do not feel long to me because I enjoy them (yes even with terrible PUGs time passes fast)... Base game dungeons just feel like they drag on forever just because I can't stand the dullness anymore.
It's still a terrible idea IMO, but I don't wanna repeat the same arguments every week when a new thread on this pops up. I just worry that if we lose the energy to disagree, ZOS will listen to the people demanding this to make it stop.

That would be the effect of placing the more difficult Veteran DLC dungeons into their own category. Then players could random DLC dungeons specifically (instead of the base ones also).

So if you are player who is looking specifically to do Veteran DLC Dungeons, I don't really understand why you would be against this idea. I can't imagine you enjoy being grouped with players who bail as soon as they see it's a DLC dungeon.

So how many queues will there be then? One Random DLC, one Random Base, and one Actual Random? And then normal and vet versions of each? Ignoring the obvious fact that the dungeon finder would need to be fixed first (IMO that would make the whole discussion moot and what's the point then), it just seems excessive. It's either random or it's not random.

I don't really mind if people bail. It's one of the risks of pugging and you have to expect a certain wait time. I disagree with the fact that people want to get the reward for taking a risk (random) but without taking the risk. You are free to select all dungeons you like and let the game sort you into one of them. You don't get bonus EXP for it. It's a BONUS and you get it for fulfilling a certain criteria. You're not entitled to it and I think it's insane that people are so stubborn about getting the reward anyway that they have to lobby for the effort required for it to be reduced so it doesn't feel like an effort anymore. It's really okay to gain EXP doing something you enjoy instead. I think people need to consider adjusting their perspective so that the reward for random dungeons is more like an optional quest, and less like some kind of disguised login reward on their daily checklist.
As it stands right now, people can refuse a dungeon by taking the queue cooldown, or they can cheese the system by queueing with someone with a smaller pool of dungeons to draw from. This is something I've never seen anyone argue against and I think people should appreciate that they do have this option of tricking a randomizer to work in their favor.

I also think that the current system is healthier for populating DLC dungeons. If people are given the option, for the grey area pf people it will be tempting for many to exclude DLC dungeons. This would be fine from a perspective of choice, but we know that realistically we need to populate DLC dungeon groups. By grey area I mean people who are not inherently opposed to DLC dungeons. These people may not have chosen or rooted for a DLC dungeon, but they are willing to commit to it, and especially given a supportive group will enjoy it. We need these people, and we need the system to encourage them to fill DLC dungeon spots.

One suggestion I brought up in the recent thread about this was to consider removing the concept of the Daily Random entirely and replace it with a Daily First Dungeon instead, as that is what I believe most people really think of it as.
My other suggestion was specifically about ESO+ subscribers. Instead of simply enabling all (dungeon) DLC in their account, let them buy it from the crown store for 0 crowns -- or something less of a hassle, idk. But basically allow people who absolutely do not want to run DLC dungeons and don't want that DLC to refuse having it. I think that's very fair, as they truly did not ask for that content. People who do play the DLC dungeons however will still have it on their random queue, as it would not be fair for them to run it on their own time but keep it out of their random queue for an easy way out.

We already have separate random queues for normal and veteran. I don't see why it would be excessive to add one more for the higher tier DLC dungeons. The jump in challenge from normal mode to say a Fungal Groto 1 on Veteran is far less than the distance to one of the more difficult Veteran DLC dungeons. So from a game play point of view it makes sense

I also disagree that the current method helps to "populate" DLC dungeons. I believe it has the opposite effect. It discourages players who are actually looking do DLC dungeons on veteran because they frequently (and I would argue more often than not) get grouped with players who don't want to do them, which makes the group interaction in such a case a headache.

Yeah I didn't really consider that the non-DLC queue already exists, so that was a brain fail on my part.

I have pugged a crap ton of DLC dungeons and the times that a person bailed on the group are fairly rare. Anecdotal evidence there, of course. It's probably worse on normal, as people who want a quick run often don't queue for random vet in the first place. But that doesn't change the fact that the current system pushes the 'undecided' group into running DLC dungeons, while the proposed system would do the opposite. And we really need people to be pushed more towards DLC dungeons.

In the end, the bottom line remains that each person has absolute control over the dungeons they queue for. No one is forcing anyone. The EXP bonus is specifically awarded for choosing to relinquish that control and risk getting an option they really hate. That is the point of random, and that's why we get something for it. It's the incentive. Either the incentive is large enough for you to take the risk, or it's not worth it and you queue for a limited dungeon selection instead. You don't get the best of both worlds.
Running a "fast and easy" random dungeon is an exciting possibility, but it is not a right.

This misses the point.

I am not talking about what people's "rights" are or whether or not people have control over what dungeons they queue up for. I am talking about ways to improve the efficiency of the Group % Activity finder. The current "incentives" are obviously not enough considering how frequently people simply bail or leave as soon as they see a difficult DLC dungeon come up.

This is also not a productive situation for those players who actually are wanting to do specific DLC dungeons. Those players who specifically queue up for those specific dungeons and exercise complete control over which dungeon he or she queues up for (as you point out in your post) still winds up being grouped with other players who are just trying to do a random base dungeon under the current method. So by bringing that up you highlighting why the current system doesn't work effectively.

Well then you're just looking to add incentives; adding a lower reward queue for base game dungeons won't do that in any way. That would actually snip that queue idea completely, and leave us with only adding a hardcore DLC only queue with better rewards. Or a smart reward system that rewards you based on the dungeon you run.

I've explained twice now why it's still better for those people than what you're proposing (and my disapproval of how you keep implying that queueing for a DLC PUG means burning through a series of people who ditch you upon entering the dungeon. I'm willing to accept that I've been lucky, but the image you're painting just isn't realistic.) Nothing more I can do. Bolding and italicizing a bunch of words doesn't change the fact that you seem to barely have read what I said and aren't bringing up any good points.

Why you think it' isn't realistic to simply put the harder DLC dungeons into a different category (something they already do when it comes to normal vs veteran) makes no sense to me. It's entirely "realistic" and could be done easily.

I also disagree with you that it benefits people who are trying to do specific DLC dungeons to have to burn through a series of people who have no interest in doing DLC content and are just looking for a easy random. That sounds ridiculous to me, and just wastes that person's time. I would much rather wait in a queue for a long period of time then join a group that plans to quit at the beginning over and over.

...
Me: So the solution would be an extra queue that's just DLC.
You: Why don't you think it's realistic to have an extra queue with just DLC?

Me: I think your image of people having to 'burn through a bunch of people' every DLC dungeon is exaggerated and inaccurate.
You: I disagree with you saying it benefits people to burn through a bunch of people every DLC dungeon.

I mean am I in the twilight zone? At what point did we go from having what I thought was a reasonable discussion to you only reading every second word I write and trolling me?

Someone ditching a DLC dungeon at the beginning happens maybe once every few runs. Having two people bail in a row had happened to me maybe an amount of times I can count on one hand. As I said, I'm willing to accept that I've gotten lucky and others have had worse experiences, but what you're describing still sounds incredibly overdramatized. When a person bailed and you have to wait again, that is the longer wait time you're okay with.
And that STILL doesn't change the fact that the DLC queue being filled relies on the large amount of grey area people that need a push to commit to the DLC dungeon. Removing the completely uninterested parties in this case would just also remove too many from the middle ground.

Jeremy · November 2019

Raisin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

I'll say what I said in the last thread: If you get a random queue that excludes DLC dungeons, I get a queue that excludes base game dungeons. It's not fair if others get to say "I want a random dungeon but not that one" and I don't. Getting a base game dungeon is as excruciating for me as it is to get a DLC one for you. DLC dungeons do not feel long to me because I enjoy them (yes even with terrible PUGs time passes fast)... Base game dungeons just feel like they drag on forever just because I can't stand the dullness anymore.
It's still a terrible idea IMO, but I don't wanna repeat the same arguments every week when a new thread on this pops up. I just worry that if we lose the energy to disagree, ZOS will listen to the people demanding this to make it stop.

That would be the effect of placing the more difficult Veteran DLC dungeons into their own category. Then players could random DLC dungeons specifically (instead of the base ones also).

So if you are player who is looking specifically to do Veteran DLC Dungeons, I don't really understand why you would be against this idea. I can't imagine you enjoy being grouped with players who bail as soon as they see it's a DLC dungeon.

So how many queues will there be then? One Random DLC, one Random Base, and one Actual Random? And then normal and vet versions of each? Ignoring the obvious fact that the dungeon finder would need to be fixed first (IMO that would make the whole discussion moot and what's the point then), it just seems excessive. It's either random or it's not random.

I don't really mind if people bail. It's one of the risks of pugging and you have to expect a certain wait time. I disagree with the fact that people want to get the reward for taking a risk (random) but without taking the risk. You are free to select all dungeons you like and let the game sort you into one of them. You don't get bonus EXP for it. It's a BONUS and you get it for fulfilling a certain criteria. You're not entitled to it and I think it's insane that people are so stubborn about getting the reward anyway that they have to lobby for the effort required for it to be reduced so it doesn't feel like an effort anymore. It's really okay to gain EXP doing something you enjoy instead. I think people need to consider adjusting their perspective so that the reward for random dungeons is more like an optional quest, and less like some kind of disguised login reward on their daily checklist.
As it stands right now, people can refuse a dungeon by taking the queue cooldown, or they can cheese the system by queueing with someone with a smaller pool of dungeons to draw from. This is something I've never seen anyone argue against and I think people should appreciate that they do have this option of tricking a randomizer to work in their favor.

I also think that the current system is healthier for populating DLC dungeons. If people are given the option, for the grey area pf people it will be tempting for many to exclude DLC dungeons. This would be fine from a perspective of choice, but we know that realistically we need to populate DLC dungeon groups. By grey area I mean people who are not inherently opposed to DLC dungeons. These people may not have chosen or rooted for a DLC dungeon, but they are willing to commit to it, and especially given a supportive group will enjoy it. We need these people, and we need the system to encourage them to fill DLC dungeon spots.

One suggestion I brought up in the recent thread about this was to consider removing the concept of the Daily Random entirely and replace it with a Daily First Dungeon instead, as that is what I believe most people really think of it as.
My other suggestion was specifically about ESO+ subscribers. Instead of simply enabling all (dungeon) DLC in their account, let them buy it from the crown store for 0 crowns -- or something less of a hassle, idk. But basically allow people who absolutely do not want to run DLC dungeons and don't want that DLC to refuse having it. I think that's very fair, as they truly did not ask for that content. People who do play the DLC dungeons however will still have it on their random queue, as it would not be fair for them to run it on their own time but keep it out of their random queue for an easy way out.

We already have separate random queues for normal and veteran. I don't see why it would be excessive to add one more for the higher tier DLC dungeons. The jump in challenge from normal mode to say a Fungal Groto 1 on Veteran is far less than the distance to one of the more difficult Veteran DLC dungeons. So from a game play point of view it makes sense

I also disagree that the current method helps to "populate" DLC dungeons. I believe it has the opposite effect. It discourages players who are actually looking do DLC dungeons on veteran because they frequently (and I would argue more often than not) get grouped with players who don't want to do them, which makes the group interaction in such a case a headache.

Yeah I didn't really consider that the non-DLC queue already exists, so that was a brain fail on my part.

I have pugged a crap ton of DLC dungeons and the times that a person bailed on the group are fairly rare. Anecdotal evidence there, of course. It's probably worse on normal, as people who want a quick run often don't queue for random vet in the first place. But that doesn't change the fact that the current system pushes the 'undecided' group into running DLC dungeons, while the proposed system would do the opposite. And we really need people to be pushed more towards DLC dungeons.

In the end, the bottom line remains that each person has absolute control over the dungeons they queue for. No one is forcing anyone. The EXP bonus is specifically awarded for choosing to relinquish that control and risk getting an option they really hate. That is the point of random, and that's why we get something for it. It's the incentive. Either the incentive is large enough for you to take the risk, or it's not worth it and you queue for a limited dungeon selection instead. You don't get the best of both worlds.
Running a "fast and easy" random dungeon is an exciting possibility, but it is not a right.

This misses the point.

I am not talking about what people's "rights" are or whether or not people have control over what dungeons they queue up for. I am talking about ways to improve the efficiency of the Group % Activity finder. The current "incentives" are obviously not enough considering how frequently people simply bail or leave as soon as they see a difficult DLC dungeon come up.

This is also not a productive situation for those players who actually are wanting to do specific DLC dungeons. Those players who specifically queue up for those specific dungeons and exercise complete control over which dungeon he or she queues up for (as you point out in your post) still winds up being grouped with other players who are just trying to do a random base dungeon under the current method. So by bringing that up you highlighting why the current system doesn't work effectively.

Well then you're just looking to add incentives; adding a lower reward queue for base game dungeons won't do that in any way. That would actually snip that queue idea completely, and leave us with only adding a hardcore DLC only queue with better rewards. Or a smart reward system that rewards you based on the dungeon you run.

I've explained twice now why it's still better for those people than what you're proposing (and my disapproval of how you keep implying that queueing for a DLC PUG means burning through a series of people who ditch you upon entering the dungeon. I'm willing to accept that I've been lucky, but the image you're painting just isn't realistic.) Nothing more I can do. Bolding and italicizing a bunch of words doesn't change the fact that you seem to barely have read what I said and aren't bringing up any good points.

Why you think it' isn't realistic to simply put the harder DLC dungeons into a different category (something they already do when it comes to normal vs veteran) makes no sense to me. It's entirely "realistic" and could be done easily.

I also disagree with you that it benefits people who are trying to do specific DLC dungeons to have to burn through a series of people who have no interest in doing DLC content and are just looking for a easy random. That sounds ridiculous to me, and just wastes that person's time. I would much rather wait in a queue for a long period of time then join a group that plans to quit at the beginning over and over.

...
Me: So the solution would be an extra queue that's just DLC.
You: Why don't you think it's realistic to have an extra queue with just DLC?

Me: I think your image of people having to 'burn through a bunch of people' every DLC dungeon is exaggerated and inaccurate.
You: I disagree with you saying it benefits people to burn through a bunch of people every DLC dungeon.

I mean am I in the twilight zone? At what point did we go from having what I thought was a reasonable discussion to you only reading every second word I write and trolling me?

Someone ditching a DLC dungeon at the beginning happens maybe once every few runs. Having two people bail in a row had happened to me maybe an amount of times I can count on one hand. As I said, I'm willing to accept that I've gotten lucky and others have had worse experiences, but what you're describing still sounds incredibly overdramatized. When a person bailed and you have to wait again, that is the longer wait time you're okay with.
And that STILL doesn't change the fact that the DLC queue being filled relies on the large amount of grey area people that need a push to commit to the DLC dungeon. Removing the completely uninterested parties in this case would just also remove too many from the middle ground.

Well I'm not trolling you... at least not intentionally. It is 1 am so if I'm not understanding you correctly chalk it up to delirium.

To avoid further misunderstanding - explain to me how the current system benefits players who are wanting to do specific DLC dungeons? Because I could have swore you were saying it helps because it throws more people into your queue who are just there for the random. But maybe I misunderstood.

I'll go back and read your post again and try to clean up my response if I misunderstood you. You may have made some edits I didn't catch the first time I responded or something.

Raisin · November 2019

idk wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

I'll say what I said in the last thread: If you get a random queue that excludes DLC dungeons, I get a queue that excludes base game dungeons. It's not fair if others get to say "I want a random dungeon but not that one" and I don't. Getting a base game dungeon is as excruciating for me as it is to get a DLC one for you. DLC dungeons do not feel long to me because I enjoy them (yes even with terrible PUGs time passes fast)... Base game dungeons just feel like they drag on forever just because I can't stand the dullness anymore.
It's still a terrible idea IMO, but I don't wanna repeat the same arguments every week when a new thread on this pops up. I just worry that if we lose the energy to disagree, ZOS will listen to the people demanding this to make it stop.

That would be the effect of placing the more difficult Veteran DLC dungeons into their own category. Then players could random DLC dungeons specifically (instead of the base ones also).

So if you are player who is looking specifically to do Veteran DLC Dungeons, I don't really understand why you would be against this idea. I can't imagine you enjoy being grouped with players who bail as soon as they see it's a DLC dungeon.

One suggestion I brought up in the recent thread about this was to consider removing the concept of the Daily Random entirely and replace it with a Daily First Dungeon instead, as that is what I believe most people really think of it as.
My other suggestion was specifically about ESO+ subscribers. Instead of simply enabling all (dungeon) DLC in their account, let them buy it from the crown store for 0 crowns -- or something less of a hassle, idk. But basically allow people who absolutely do not want to run DLC dungeons and don't want that DLC to refuse having it. I think that's very fair, as they truly did not ask for that content. People who do play the DLC dungeons however will still have it on their random queue, as it would not be fair for them to run it on their own time but keep it out of their random queue for an easy way out.

The idea of the random dungeon is so partial groups (which includes individuals) who are queued for a specific dungeon have a greater chance for others to fill their group. Obviously this includes DLC dungeons. So an idea where a player could just choose a specific dungeon would help at all since most would likely choose either a pledge dungeon or FG2.

What would work and is pretty straight forward is allow a means to opt out of the DLC dungeons. Offer a higher tier rewards for those who opt in and have it based on how many DLC dungeons they have access to. This also means someone who has chosen to now sub and has not bought any dungeon DLCs would automatically be opted out.

The better rewards would include gold quality drops, including jewelry The degree of the upgrade would be based on a point system or % of DLCs they have access to. This also makes sense because the risk vs reward is taken care of very well as it also allows players to opt out of DLCs as they choose to.

I should probably have specified that I wouldn't get rid of the rewards (maybe just the smaller one?) for random dungeons. I would just move the big once-per-day one so people are happy.

The idea of the reward for doing a random was not specifically to make players happy because they were getting a reward. It was to encourage use of the GF and to help fill groups for people queuing up with partial groups including for specific dungeons.

I was pointing out your suggesting mostly removes the incentive and eliminates most of the overall intended benefit.

Further, there already is a reward for doing a dungeon that is not random. That is the pledges.

And I was pointing out it was mostly a "would this interest you" type of suggestion I've offered in these threads before. :P
As I said, I would leave the reward for the random dungeons. I feel like that was clear? IDK what to say that I didn't already say, I told you I don't like the suggestion myself already. It just seems to me that "I want a special reward for running a dungeon once a day without the risk of not enjoying it" is what a lot of these discussions boil down to in the end. Which isn't the same thing as pledges obviously.
Idk there's this whole thoughtful discussion going on here and you're coming at me with some patronizing 'Did you know the random queue fills partial groups!!!' like it's some kind of epiphany you had and think other people don't know. xD

Jeremy wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

I'll say what I said in the last thread: If you get a random queue that excludes DLC dungeons, I get a queue that excludes base game dungeons. It's not fair if others get to say "I want a random dungeon but not that one" and I don't. Getting a base game dungeon is as excruciating for me as it is to get a DLC one for you. DLC dungeons do not feel long to me because I enjoy them (yes even with terrible PUGs time passes fast)... Base game dungeons just feel like they drag on forever just because I can't stand the dullness anymore.
It's still a terrible idea IMO, but I don't wanna repeat the same arguments every week when a new thread on this pops up. I just worry that if we lose the energy to disagree, ZOS will listen to the people demanding this to make it stop.

That would be the effect of placing the more difficult Veteran DLC dungeons into their own category. Then players could random DLC dungeons specifically (instead of the base ones also).

So if you are player who is looking specifically to do Veteran DLC Dungeons, I don't really understand why you would be against this idea. I can't imagine you enjoy being grouped with players who bail as soon as they see it's a DLC dungeon.

So how many queues will there be then? One Random DLC, one Random Base, and one Actual Random? And then normal and vet versions of each? Ignoring the obvious fact that the dungeon finder would need to be fixed first (IMO that would make the whole discussion moot and what's the point then), it just seems excessive. It's either random or it's not random.

I don't really mind if people bail. It's one of the risks of pugging and you have to expect a certain wait time. I disagree with the fact that people want to get the reward for taking a risk (random) but without taking the risk. You are free to select all dungeons you like and let the game sort you into one of them. You don't get bonus EXP for it. It's a BONUS and you get it for fulfilling a certain criteria. You're not entitled to it and I think it's insane that people are so stubborn about getting the reward anyway that they have to lobby for the effort required for it to be reduced so it doesn't feel like an effort anymore. It's really okay to gain EXP doing something you enjoy instead. I think people need to consider adjusting their perspective so that the reward for random dungeons is more like an optional quest, and less like some kind of disguised login reward on their daily checklist.
As it stands right now, people can refuse a dungeon by taking the queue cooldown, or they can cheese the system by queueing with someone with a smaller pool of dungeons to draw from. This is something I've never seen anyone argue against and I think people should appreciate that they do have this option of tricking a randomizer to work in their favor.

I also think that the current system is healthier for populating DLC dungeons. If people are given the option, for the grey area pf people it will be tempting for many to exclude DLC dungeons. This would be fine from a perspective of choice, but we know that realistically we need to populate DLC dungeon groups. By grey area I mean people who are not inherently opposed to DLC dungeons. These people may not have chosen or rooted for a DLC dungeon, but they are willing to commit to it, and especially given a supportive group will enjoy it. We need these people, and we need the system to encourage them to fill DLC dungeon spots.

One suggestion I brought up in the recent thread about this was to consider removing the concept of the Daily Random entirely and replace it with a Daily First Dungeon instead, as that is what I believe most people really think of it as.
My other suggestion was specifically about ESO+ subscribers. Instead of simply enabling all (dungeon) DLC in their account, let them buy it from the crown store for 0 crowns -- or something less of a hassle, idk. But basically allow people who absolutely do not want to run DLC dungeons and don't want that DLC to refuse having it. I think that's very fair, as they truly did not ask for that content. People who do play the DLC dungeons however will still have it on their random queue, as it would not be fair for them to run it on their own time but keep it out of their random queue for an easy way out.

We already have separate random queues for normal and veteran. I don't see why it would be excessive to add one more for the higher tier DLC dungeons. The jump in challenge from normal mode to say a Fungal Groto 1 on Veteran is far less than the distance to one of the more difficult Veteran DLC dungeons. So from a game play point of view it makes sense

I also disagree that the current method helps to "populate" DLC dungeons. I believe it has the opposite effect. It discourages players who are actually looking do DLC dungeons on veteran because they frequently (and I would argue more often than not) get grouped with players who don't want to do them, which makes the group interaction in such a case a headache.

Yeah I didn't really consider that the non-DLC queue already exists, so that was a brain fail on my part.

I have pugged a crap ton of DLC dungeons and the times that a person bailed on the group are fairly rare. Anecdotal evidence there, of course. It's probably worse on normal, as people who want a quick run often don't queue for random vet in the first place. But that doesn't change the fact that the current system pushes the 'undecided' group into running DLC dungeons, while the proposed system would do the opposite. And we really need people to be pushed more towards DLC dungeons.

In the end, the bottom line remains that each person has absolute control over the dungeons they queue for. No one is forcing anyone. The EXP bonus is specifically awarded for choosing to relinquish that control and risk getting an option they really hate. That is the point of random, and that's why we get something for it. It's the incentive. Either the incentive is large enough for you to take the risk, or it's not worth it and you queue for a limited dungeon selection instead. You don't get the best of both worlds.
Running a "fast and easy" random dungeon is an exciting possibility, but it is not a right.

This misses the point.

I am not talking about what people's "rights" are or whether or not people have control over what dungeons they queue up for. I am talking about ways to improve the efficiency of the Group % Activity finder. The current "incentives" are obviously not enough considering how frequently people simply bail or leave as soon as they see a difficult DLC dungeon come up.

This is also not a productive situation for those players who actually are wanting to do specific DLC dungeons. Those players who specifically queue up for those specific dungeons and exercise complete control over which dungeon he or she queues up for (as you point out in your post) still winds up being grouped with other players who are just trying to do a random base dungeon under the current method. So by bringing that up you highlighting why the current system doesn't work effectively.

Well then you're just looking to add incentives; adding a lower reward queue for base game dungeons won't do that in any way. That would actually snip that queue idea completely, and leave us with only adding a hardcore DLC only queue with better rewards. Or a smart reward system that rewards you based on the dungeon you run.

I've explained twice now why it's still better for those people than what you're proposing (and my disapproval of how you keep implying that queueing for a DLC PUG means burning through a series of people who ditch you upon entering the dungeon. I'm willing to accept that I've been lucky, but the image you're painting just isn't realistic.) Nothing more I can do. Bolding and italicizing a bunch of words doesn't change the fact that you seem to barely have read what I said and aren't bringing up any good points.

Why you think it' isn't realistic to simply put the harder DLC dungeons into a different category (something they already do when it comes to normal vs veteran) makes no sense to me. It's entirely "realistic" and could be done easily.

I also disagree with you that it benefits people who are trying to do specific DLC dungeons to have to burn through a series of people who have no interest in doing DLC content and are just looking for a easy random. That sounds ridiculous to me, and just wastes that person's time. I would much rather wait in a queue for a long period of time then join a group that plans to quit at the beginning over and over.

...
Me: So the solution would be an extra queue that's just DLC.
You: Why don't you think it's realistic to have an extra queue with just DLC?

Me: I think your image of people having to 'burn through a bunch of people' every DLC dungeon is exaggerated and inaccurate.
You: I disagree with you saying it benefits people to burn through a bunch of people every DLC dungeon.

I mean am I in the twilight zone? At what point did we go from having what I thought was a reasonable discussion to you only reading every second word I write and trolling me?

Someone ditching a DLC dungeon at the beginning happens maybe once every few runs. Having two people bail in a row had happened to me maybe an amount of times I can count on one hand. As I said, I'm willing to accept that I've gotten lucky and others have had worse experiences, but what you're describing still sounds incredibly overdramatized. When a person bailed and you have to wait again, that is the longer wait time you're okay with.
And that STILL doesn't change the fact that the DLC queue being filled relies on the large amount of grey area people that need a push to commit to the DLC dungeon. Removing the completely uninterested parties in this case would just also remove too many from the middle ground.

Well I'm not trolling you... at least not intentionally. It is 1 am so if I'm not understanding you correctly chalk it up to delirium.

To avoid further misunderstanding - explain to me how the current system benefits players who are wanting to do specific DLC dungeons? Because I could have swore you were saying it helps because it throws more people into your queue who are just there for the random. But maybe I misunderstood.

It's 7am here so if I vanish you know why.

There is a large amount of people who are there just for the random AND are content getting DLC as a result. Those people are great at filling the partial DPC groups. By adding an option to do a fast and easy base game random for the reward, you will not just remove the people who bail in DLC dungeons from the pool to fill up DLC partials, but you will also remove aforementioned grey area folks. They are people that wouldn't be upset at getting DLC, but would probably pick the easy way out queue if offered. The current system prevents this from happening and instead gives these people that little push. Proposing that only people who actively choose to queue for a potential DLC dungeon will fill a partial just substantially lowers the amount of people available. I believe you will still have a faster result getting 1 person who ditches you and continuing to look in the bigger pool than waiting for a result from the much smaller pool.
As I said, a DLC-only queue with better rewards would definitely help, as it encourages people to actually finish that dungeon (although the same again also goes for a smart reward system; so even if you queue for ALL dungeons, you still get a better reward for sticking with DLC IF you get it). However, I don't see a non-DLC queue with lower rewards doing anything. These people are already used to the current random reward. Why would they switch? What stops them from complaining that it's still possible to group with a low level and get a better reward for doing the same thing? What incentive is there for them to STOP using the full random queue, if the 15 minutes cooldown evidently isn't enough to deter them? In my opinion the 'lower reward' queue already exists in form of the specific dungeon search... It's just no bonus reward cause you're not doing random. At best, we are using psychology to trick people into being satisfied that they have a random base dungeon with worse rewards, when it's close to what they could have done by just queuing specific -- still not really getting the random bonus. And while there will always be complaints about everything and I don't think it's the best argument... There will be people complaining that better things are now locked behind a better random, and that they deserve the same for less.
The problem is that you're not just looking to add a higher incentive to queuing for DLC, you're also trying to add an incentive for people to stop queuing for Full-Random if they don't wanna run DLC. But we can't add any sort of incentive to a base-random queue, because that will lure people away from what we're trying to actually add incentive to (finishing DLC). Unless they are separate rewards.
But in the end this then also really stops being a 'Random Dungeon' I most cases.

Dusk_Coven · November 2019

How about removing rewards instead. That way the only people left in the queue are the ones who actually want to run a dungeon for quest or enjoyment instead of hoping for Fungal Grotto I.

Hapexamendios · November 2019

If you have access to them, them being the random is fair.

Jeremy · November 2019

Raisin wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

I'll say what I said in the last thread: If you get a random queue that excludes DLC dungeons, I get a queue that excludes base game dungeons. It's not fair if others get to say "I want a random dungeon but not that one" and I don't. Getting a base game dungeon is as excruciating for me as it is to get a DLC one for you. DLC dungeons do not feel long to me because I enjoy them (yes even with terrible PUGs time passes fast)... Base game dungeons just feel like they drag on forever just because I can't stand the dullness anymore.
It's still a terrible idea IMO, but I don't wanna repeat the same arguments every week when a new thread on this pops up. I just worry that if we lose the energy to disagree, ZOS will listen to the people demanding this to make it stop.

That would be the effect of placing the more difficult Veteran DLC dungeons into their own category. Then players could random DLC dungeons specifically (instead of the base ones also).

So if you are player who is looking specifically to do Veteran DLC Dungeons, I don't really understand why you would be against this idea. I can't imagine you enjoy being grouped with players who bail as soon as they see it's a DLC dungeon.

One suggestion I brought up in the recent thread about this was to consider removing the concept of the Daily Random entirely and replace it with a Daily First Dungeon instead, as that is what I believe most people really think of it as.
My other suggestion was specifically about ESO+ subscribers. Instead of simply enabling all (dungeon) DLC in their account, let them buy it from the crown store for 0 crowns -- or something less of a hassle, idk. But basically allow people who absolutely do not want to run DLC dungeons and don't want that DLC to refuse having it. I think that's very fair, as they truly did not ask for that content. People who do play the DLC dungeons however will still have it on their random queue, as it would not be fair for them to run it on their own time but keep it out of their random queue for an easy way out.

The idea of the random dungeon is so partial groups (which includes individuals) who are queued for a specific dungeon have a greater chance for others to fill their group. Obviously this includes DLC dungeons. So an idea where a player could just choose a specific dungeon would help at all since most would likely choose either a pledge dungeon or FG2.

What would work and is pretty straight forward is allow a means to opt out of the DLC dungeons. Offer a higher tier rewards for those who opt in and have it based on how many DLC dungeons they have access to. This also means someone who has chosen to now sub and has not bought any dungeon DLCs would automatically be opted out.

The better rewards would include gold quality drops, including jewelry The degree of the upgrade would be based on a point system or % of DLCs they have access to. This also makes sense because the risk vs reward is taken care of very well as it also allows players to opt out of DLCs as they choose to.

I should probably have specified that I wouldn't get rid of the rewards (maybe just the smaller one?) for random dungeons. I would just move the big once-per-day one so people are happy.

The idea of the reward for doing a random was not specifically to make players happy because they were getting a reward. It was to encourage use of the GF and to help fill groups for people queuing up with partial groups including for specific dungeons.

I was pointing out your suggesting mostly removes the incentive and eliminates most of the overall intended benefit.

Further, there already is a reward for doing a dungeon that is not random. That is the pledges.

And I was pointing out it was mostly a "would this interest you" type of suggestion I've offered in these threads before. :P
As I said, I would leave the reward for the random dungeons. I feel like that was clear? IDK what to say that I didn't already say, I told you I don't like the suggestion myself already. It just seems to me that "I want a special reward for running a dungeon once a day without the risk of not enjoying it" is what a lot of these discussions boil down to in the end. Which isn't the same thing as pledges obviously.
Idk there's this whole thoughtful discussion going on here and you're coming at me with some patronizing 'Did you know the random queue fills partial groups!!!' like it's some kind of epiphany you had and think other people don't know. xD

Jeremy wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

I'll say what I said in the last thread: If you get a random queue that excludes DLC dungeons, I get a queue that excludes base game dungeons. It's not fair if others get to say "I want a random dungeon but not that one" and I don't. Getting a base game dungeon is as excruciating for me as it is to get a DLC one for you. DLC dungeons do not feel long to me because I enjoy them (yes even with terrible PUGs time passes fast)... Base game dungeons just feel like they drag on forever just because I can't stand the dullness anymore.
It's still a terrible idea IMO, but I don't wanna repeat the same arguments every week when a new thread on this pops up. I just worry that if we lose the energy to disagree, ZOS will listen to the people demanding this to make it stop.

That would be the effect of placing the more difficult Veteran DLC dungeons into their own category. Then players could random DLC dungeons specifically (instead of the base ones also).

So if you are player who is looking specifically to do Veteran DLC Dungeons, I don't really understand why you would be against this idea. I can't imagine you enjoy being grouped with players who bail as soon as they see it's a DLC dungeon.

So how many queues will there be then? One Random DLC, one Random Base, and one Actual Random? And then normal and vet versions of each? Ignoring the obvious fact that the dungeon finder would need to be fixed first (IMO that would make the whole discussion moot and what's the point then), it just seems excessive. It's either random or it's not random.

I don't really mind if people bail. It's one of the risks of pugging and you have to expect a certain wait time. I disagree with the fact that people want to get the reward for taking a risk (random) but without taking the risk. You are free to select all dungeons you like and let the game sort you into one of them. You don't get bonus EXP for it. It's a BONUS and you get it for fulfilling a certain criteria. You're not entitled to it and I think it's insane that people are so stubborn about getting the reward anyway that they have to lobby for the effort required for it to be reduced so it doesn't feel like an effort anymore. It's really okay to gain EXP doing something you enjoy instead. I think people need to consider adjusting their perspective so that the reward for random dungeons is more like an optional quest, and less like some kind of disguised login reward on their daily checklist.
As it stands right now, people can refuse a dungeon by taking the queue cooldown, or they can cheese the system by queueing with someone with a smaller pool of dungeons to draw from. This is something I've never seen anyone argue against and I think people should appreciate that they do have this option of tricking a randomizer to work in their favor.

I also think that the current system is healthier for populating DLC dungeons. If people are given the option, for the grey area pf people it will be tempting for many to exclude DLC dungeons. This would be fine from a perspective of choice, but we know that realistically we need to populate DLC dungeon groups. By grey area I mean people who are not inherently opposed to DLC dungeons. These people may not have chosen or rooted for a DLC dungeon, but they are willing to commit to it, and especially given a supportive group will enjoy it. We need these people, and we need the system to encourage them to fill DLC dungeon spots.

One suggestion I brought up in the recent thread about this was to consider removing the concept of the Daily Random entirely and replace it with a Daily First Dungeon instead, as that is what I believe most people really think of it as.
My other suggestion was specifically about ESO+ subscribers. Instead of simply enabling all (dungeon) DLC in their account, let them buy it from the crown store for 0 crowns -- or something less of a hassle, idk. But basically allow people who absolutely do not want to run DLC dungeons and don't want that DLC to refuse having it. I think that's very fair, as they truly did not ask for that content. People who do play the DLC dungeons however will still have it on their random queue, as it would not be fair for them to run it on their own time but keep it out of their random queue for an easy way out.

We already have separate random queues for normal and veteran. I don't see why it would be excessive to add one more for the higher tier DLC dungeons. The jump in challenge from normal mode to say a Fungal Groto 1 on Veteran is far less than the distance to one of the more difficult Veteran DLC dungeons. So from a game play point of view it makes sense

I also disagree that the current method helps to "populate" DLC dungeons. I believe it has the opposite effect. It discourages players who are actually looking do DLC dungeons on veteran because they frequently (and I would argue more often than not) get grouped with players who don't want to do them, which makes the group interaction in such a case a headache.

Yeah I didn't really consider that the non-DLC queue already exists, so that was a brain fail on my part.

I have pugged a crap ton of DLC dungeons and the times that a person bailed on the group are fairly rare. Anecdotal evidence there, of course. It's probably worse on normal, as people who want a quick run often don't queue for random vet in the first place. But that doesn't change the fact that the current system pushes the 'undecided' group into running DLC dungeons, while the proposed system would do the opposite. And we really need people to be pushed more towards DLC dungeons.

In the end, the bottom line remains that each person has absolute control over the dungeons they queue for. No one is forcing anyone. The EXP bonus is specifically awarded for choosing to relinquish that control and risk getting an option they really hate. That is the point of random, and that's why we get something for it. It's the incentive. Either the incentive is large enough for you to take the risk, or it's not worth it and you queue for a limited dungeon selection instead. You don't get the best of both worlds.
Running a "fast and easy" random dungeon is an exciting possibility, but it is not a right.

This misses the point.

I am not talking about what people's "rights" are or whether or not people have control over what dungeons they queue up for. I am talking about ways to improve the efficiency of the Group % Activity finder. The current "incentives" are obviously not enough considering how frequently people simply bail or leave as soon as they see a difficult DLC dungeon come up.

This is also not a productive situation for those players who actually are wanting to do specific DLC dungeons. Those players who specifically queue up for those specific dungeons and exercise complete control over which dungeon he or she queues up for (as you point out in your post) still winds up being grouped with other players who are just trying to do a random base dungeon under the current method. So by bringing that up you highlighting why the current system doesn't work effectively.

Well then you're just looking to add incentives; adding a lower reward queue for base game dungeons won't do that in any way. That would actually snip that queue idea completely, and leave us with only adding a hardcore DLC only queue with better rewards. Or a smart reward system that rewards you based on the dungeon you run.

I've explained twice now why it's still better for those people than what you're proposing (and my disapproval of how you keep implying that queueing for a DLC PUG means burning through a series of people who ditch you upon entering the dungeon. I'm willing to accept that I've been lucky, but the image you're painting just isn't realistic.) Nothing more I can do. Bolding and italicizing a bunch of words doesn't change the fact that you seem to barely have read what I said and aren't bringing up any good points.

Why you think it' isn't realistic to simply put the harder DLC dungeons into a different category (something they already do when it comes to normal vs veteran) makes no sense to me. It's entirely "realistic" and could be done easily.

I also disagree with you that it benefits people who are trying to do specific DLC dungeons to have to burn through a series of people who have no interest in doing DLC content and are just looking for a easy random. That sounds ridiculous to me, and just wastes that person's time. I would much rather wait in a queue for a long period of time then join a group that plans to quit at the beginning over and over.

...
Me: So the solution would be an extra queue that's just DLC.
You: Why don't you think it's realistic to have an extra queue with just DLC?

Me: I think your image of people having to 'burn through a bunch of people' every DLC dungeon is exaggerated and inaccurate.
You: I disagree with you saying it benefits people to burn through a bunch of people every DLC dungeon.

I mean am I in the twilight zone? At what point did we go from having what I thought was a reasonable discussion to you only reading every second word I write and trolling me?

Someone ditching a DLC dungeon at the beginning happens maybe once every few runs. Having two people bail in a row had happened to me maybe an amount of times I can count on one hand. As I said, I'm willing to accept that I've gotten lucky and others have had worse experiences, but what you're describing still sounds incredibly overdramatized. When a person bailed and you have to wait again, that is the longer wait time you're okay with.
And that STILL doesn't change the fact that the DLC queue being filled relies on the large amount of grey area people that need a push to commit to the DLC dungeon. Removing the completely uninterested parties in this case would just also remove too many from the middle ground.

Well I'm not trolling you... at least not intentionally. It is 1 am so if I'm not understanding you correctly chalk it up to delirium.

To avoid further misunderstanding - explain to me how the current system benefits players who are wanting to do specific DLC dungeons? Because I could have swore you were saying it helps because it throws more people into your queue who are just there for the random. But maybe I misunderstood.

It's 7am here so if I vanish you know why.

There is a large amount of people who are there just for the random AND are content getting DLC as a result. Those people are great at filling the partial DPC groups. By adding an option to do a fast and easy base game random for the reward, you will not just remove the people who bail in DLC dungeons from the pool to fill up DLC partials, but you will also remove aforementioned grey area folks. They are people that wouldn't be upset at getting DLC, but would probably pick the easy way out queue if offered. The current system prevents this from happening and instead gives these people that little push. Proposing that only people who actively choose to queue for a potential DLC dungeon will fill a partial just substantially lowers the amount of people available. I believe you will still have a faster result getting 1 person who ditches you and continuing to look in the bigger pool than waiting for a result from the much smaller pool.
As I said, a DLC-only queue with better rewards would definitely help, as it encourages people to actually finish that dungeon (although the same again also goes for a smart reward system; so even if you queue for ALL dungeons, you still get a better reward for sticking with DLC IF you get it). However, I don't see a non-DLC queue with lower rewards doing anything. These people are already used to the current random reward. Why would they switch? What stops them from complaining that it's still possible to group with a low level and get a better reward for doing the same thing? What incentive is there for them to STOP using the full random queue, if the 15 minutes cooldown evidently isn't enough to deter them? In my opinion the 'lower reward' queue already exists in form of the specific dungeon search... It's just no bonus reward cause you're not doing random.
The problem is that you're not just looking to add a higher incentive to queuing for DLC, you're also trying to add an incentive for people to stop queuing for Full-Random if they don't wanna run DLC. But we can't add any sort of incentive to a base-random queue, because that will lure people away from what we're trying to actually add incentive to (finishing DLC). Unless they are separate rewards.
But in the end this then also really stops being a 'Random Dungeon' I most cases.

Well I must have missed where you said you believe a DLC only queue (with a better reward, which is fine by me) would help - because that is exactly what I am asking for here. So it seems we actually agree on the fundamental point. I thought you were opposed to adding another queue due to to it being excessive or something like that.

After going back and reading our recent exchange, it seems to me our main point of difference is you believe the "[snip] area" (those players who would whether do an easy random vs a DLC one) are a net-benefit to those seeking to do specific DLC content where as I believe they are an impediment. But that's fine. We agree on the larger point which is more important to me anyway.

[Edit for Bait.]

Jeremy · November 2019

Hapexamendios wrote: »

If you have access to them, them being the random is fair.

But what about that person who is specifically queuing up for DLC content but keeps getting grouped with players looking for a base game easy random and having his or her group disbanded on account of that?

Is that fair?

Raisin · November 2019

Jeremy wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

I'll say what I said in the last thread: If you get a random queue that excludes DLC dungeons, I get a queue that excludes base game dungeons. It's not fair if others get to say "I want a random dungeon but not that one" and I don't. Getting a base game dungeon is as excruciating for me as it is to get a DLC one for you. DLC dungeons do not feel long to me because I enjoy them (yes even with terrible PUGs time passes fast)... Base game dungeons just feel like they drag on forever just because I can't stand the dullness anymore.
It's still a terrible idea IMO, but I don't wanna repeat the same arguments every week when a new thread on this pops up. I just worry that if we lose the energy to disagree, ZOS will listen to the people demanding this to make it stop.

That would be the effect of placing the more difficult Veteran DLC dungeons into their own category. Then players could random DLC dungeons specifically (instead of the base ones also).

So if you are player who is looking specifically to do Veteran DLC Dungeons, I don't really understand why you would be against this idea. I can't imagine you enjoy being grouped with players who bail as soon as they see it's a DLC dungeon.

One suggestion I brought up in the recent thread about this was to consider removing the concept of the Daily Random entirely and replace it with a Daily First Dungeon instead, as that is what I believe most people really think of it as.
My other suggestion was specifically about ESO+ subscribers. Instead of simply enabling all (dungeon) DLC in their account, let them buy it from the crown store for 0 crowns -- or something less of a hassle, idk. But basically allow people who absolutely do not want to run DLC dungeons and don't want that DLC to refuse having it. I think that's very fair, as they truly did not ask for that content. People who do play the DLC dungeons however will still have it on their random queue, as it would not be fair for them to run it on their own time but keep it out of their random queue for an easy way out.

The idea of the random dungeon is so partial groups (which includes individuals) who are queued for a specific dungeon have a greater chance for others to fill their group. Obviously this includes DLC dungeons. So an idea where a player could just choose a specific dungeon would help at all since most would likely choose either a pledge dungeon or FG2.

What would work and is pretty straight forward is allow a means to opt out of the DLC dungeons. Offer a higher tier rewards for those who opt in and have it based on how many DLC dungeons they have access to. This also means someone who has chosen to now sub and has not bought any dungeon DLCs would automatically be opted out.

The better rewards would include gold quality drops, including jewelry The degree of the upgrade would be based on a point system or % of DLCs they have access to. This also makes sense because the risk vs reward is taken care of very well as it also allows players to opt out of DLCs as they choose to.

I should probably have specified that I wouldn't get rid of the rewards (maybe just the smaller one?) for random dungeons. I would just move the big once-per-day one so people are happy.

The idea of the reward for doing a random was not specifically to make players happy because they were getting a reward. It was to encourage use of the GF and to help fill groups for people queuing up with partial groups including for specific dungeons.

I was pointing out your suggesting mostly removes the incentive and eliminates most of the overall intended benefit.

Further, there already is a reward for doing a dungeon that is not random. That is the pledges.

And I was pointing out it was mostly a "would this interest you" type of suggestion I've offered in these threads before. :P
As I said, I would leave the reward for the random dungeons. I feel like that was clear? IDK what to say that I didn't already say, I told you I don't like the suggestion myself already. It just seems to me that "I want a special reward for running a dungeon once a day without the risk of not enjoying it" is what a lot of these discussions boil down to in the end. Which isn't the same thing as pledges obviously.
Idk there's this whole thoughtful discussion going on here and you're coming at me with some patronizing 'Did you know the random queue fills partial groups!!!' like it's some kind of epiphany you had and think other people don't know. xD

Jeremy wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

I'll say what I said in the last thread: If you get a random queue that excludes DLC dungeons, I get a queue that excludes base game dungeons. It's not fair if others get to say "I want a random dungeon but not that one" and I don't. Getting a base game dungeon is as excruciating for me as it is to get a DLC one for you. DLC dungeons do not feel long to me because I enjoy them (yes even with terrible PUGs time passes fast)... Base game dungeons just feel like they drag on forever just because I can't stand the dullness anymore.
It's still a terrible idea IMO, but I don't wanna repeat the same arguments every week when a new thread on this pops up. I just worry that if we lose the energy to disagree, ZOS will listen to the people demanding this to make it stop.

That would be the effect of placing the more difficult Veteran DLC dungeons into their own category. Then players could random DLC dungeons specifically (instead of the base ones also).

So if you are player who is looking specifically to do Veteran DLC Dungeons, I don't really understand why you would be against this idea. I can't imagine you enjoy being grouped with players who bail as soon as they see it's a DLC dungeon.

So how many queues will there be then? One Random DLC, one Random Base, and one Actual Random? And then normal and vet versions of each? Ignoring the obvious fact that the dungeon finder would need to be fixed first (IMO that would make the whole discussion moot and what's the point then), it just seems excessive. It's either random or it's not random.

I don't really mind if people bail. It's one of the risks of pugging and you have to expect a certain wait time. I disagree with the fact that people want to get the reward for taking a risk (random) but without taking the risk. You are free to select all dungeons you like and let the game sort you into one of them. You don't get bonus EXP for it. It's a BONUS and you get it for fulfilling a certain criteria. You're not entitled to it and I think it's insane that people are so stubborn about getting the reward anyway that they have to lobby for the effort required for it to be reduced so it doesn't feel like an effort anymore. It's really okay to gain EXP doing something you enjoy instead. I think people need to consider adjusting their perspective so that the reward for random dungeons is more like an optional quest, and less like some kind of disguised login reward on their daily checklist.
As it stands right now, people can refuse a dungeon by taking the queue cooldown, or they can cheese the system by queueing with someone with a smaller pool of dungeons to draw from. This is something I've never seen anyone argue against and I think people should appreciate that they do have this option of tricking a randomizer to work in their favor.

I also think that the current system is healthier for populating DLC dungeons. If people are given the option, for the grey area pf people it will be tempting for many to exclude DLC dungeons. This would be fine from a perspective of choice, but we know that realistically we need to populate DLC dungeon groups. By grey area I mean people who are not inherently opposed to DLC dungeons. These people may not have chosen or rooted for a DLC dungeon, but they are willing to commit to it, and especially given a supportive group will enjoy it. We need these people, and we need the system to encourage them to fill DLC dungeon spots.

One suggestion I brought up in the recent thread about this was to consider removing the concept of the Daily Random entirely and replace it with a Daily First Dungeon instead, as that is what I believe most people really think of it as.
My other suggestion was specifically about ESO+ subscribers. Instead of simply enabling all (dungeon) DLC in their account, let them buy it from the crown store for 0 crowns -- or something less of a hassle, idk. But basically allow people who absolutely do not want to run DLC dungeons and don't want that DLC to refuse having it. I think that's very fair, as they truly did not ask for that content. People who do play the DLC dungeons however will still have it on their random queue, as it would not be fair for them to run it on their own time but keep it out of their random queue for an easy way out.

We already have separate random queues for normal and veteran. I don't see why it would be excessive to add one more for the higher tier DLC dungeons. The jump in challenge from normal mode to say a Fungal Groto 1 on Veteran is far less than the distance to one of the more difficult Veteran DLC dungeons. So from a game play point of view it makes sense

I also disagree that the current method helps to "populate" DLC dungeons. I believe it has the opposite effect. It discourages players who are actually looking do DLC dungeons on veteran because they frequently (and I would argue more often than not) get grouped with players who don't want to do them, which makes the group interaction in such a case a headache.

Yeah I didn't really consider that the non-DLC queue already exists, so that was a brain fail on my part.

I have pugged a crap ton of DLC dungeons and the times that a person bailed on the group are fairly rare. Anecdotal evidence there, of course. It's probably worse on normal, as people who want a quick run often don't queue for random vet in the first place. But that doesn't change the fact that the current system pushes the 'undecided' group into running DLC dungeons, while the proposed system would do the opposite. And we really need people to be pushed more towards DLC dungeons.

In the end, the bottom line remains that each person has absolute control over the dungeons they queue for. No one is forcing anyone. The EXP bonus is specifically awarded for choosing to relinquish that control and risk getting an option they really hate. That is the point of random, and that's why we get something for it. It's the incentive. Either the incentive is large enough for you to take the risk, or it's not worth it and you queue for a limited dungeon selection instead. You don't get the best of both worlds.
Running a "fast and easy" random dungeon is an exciting possibility, but it is not a right.

This misses the point.

I am not talking about what people's "rights" are or whether or not people have control over what dungeons they queue up for. I am talking about ways to improve the efficiency of the Group % Activity finder. The current "incentives" are obviously not enough considering how frequently people simply bail or leave as soon as they see a difficult DLC dungeon come up.

This is also not a productive situation for those players who actually are wanting to do specific DLC dungeons. Those players who specifically queue up for those specific dungeons and exercise complete control over which dungeon he or she queues up for (as you point out in your post) still winds up being grouped with other players who are just trying to do a random base dungeon under the current method. So by bringing that up you highlighting why the current system doesn't work effectively.

Well then you're just looking to add incentives; adding a lower reward queue for base game dungeons won't do that in any way. That would actually snip that queue idea completely, and leave us with only adding a hardcore DLC only queue with better rewards. Or a smart reward system that rewards you based on the dungeon you run.

I've explained twice now why it's still better for those people than what you're proposing (and my disapproval of how you keep implying that queueing for a DLC PUG means burning through a series of people who ditch you upon entering the dungeon. I'm willing to accept that I've been lucky, but the image you're painting just isn't realistic.) Nothing more I can do. Bolding and italicizing a bunch of words doesn't change the fact that you seem to barely have read what I said and aren't bringing up any good points.

Why you think it' isn't realistic to simply put the harder DLC dungeons into a different category (something they already do when it comes to normal vs veteran) makes no sense to me. It's entirely "realistic" and could be done easily.

I also disagree with you that it benefits people who are trying to do specific DLC dungeons to have to burn through a series of people who have no interest in doing DLC content and are just looking for a easy random. That sounds ridiculous to me, and just wastes that person's time. I would much rather wait in a queue for a long period of time then join a group that plans to quit at the beginning over and over.

...
Me: So the solution would be an extra queue that's just DLC.
You: Why don't you think it's realistic to have an extra queue with just DLC?

Me: I think your image of people having to 'burn through a bunch of people' every DLC dungeon is exaggerated and inaccurate.
You: I disagree with you saying it benefits people to burn through a bunch of people every DLC dungeon.

I mean am I in the twilight zone? At what point did we go from having what I thought was a reasonable discussion to you only reading every second word I write and trolling me?

Someone ditching a DLC dungeon at the beginning happens maybe once every few runs. Having two people bail in a row had happened to me maybe an amount of times I can count on one hand. As I said, I'm willing to accept that I've gotten lucky and others have had worse experiences, but what you're describing still sounds incredibly overdramatized. When a person bailed and you have to wait again, that is the longer wait time you're okay with.
And that STILL doesn't change the fact that the DLC queue being filled relies on the large amount of grey area people that need a push to commit to the DLC dungeon. Removing the completely uninterested parties in this case would just also remove too many from the middle ground.

Well I'm not trolling you... at least not intentionally. It is 1 am so if I'm not understanding you correctly chalk it up to delirium.

To avoid further misunderstanding - explain to me how the current system benefits players who are wanting to do specific DLC dungeons? Because I could have swore you were saying it helps because it throws more people into your queue who are just there for the random. But maybe I misunderstood.

It's 7am here so if I vanish you know why.

There is a large amount of people who are there just for the random AND are content getting DLC as a result. Those people are great at filling the partial DPC groups. By adding an option to do a fast and easy base game random for the reward, you will not just remove the people who bail in DLC dungeons from the pool to fill up DLC partials, but you will also remove aforementioned grey area folks. They are people that wouldn't be upset at getting DLC, but would probably pick the easy way out queue if offered. The current system prevents this from happening and instead gives these people that little push. Proposing that only people who actively choose to queue for a potential DLC dungeon will fill a partial just substantially lowers the amount of people available. I believe you will still have a faster result getting 1 person who ditches you and continuing to look in the bigger pool than waiting for a result from the much smaller pool.
As I said, a DLC-only queue with better rewards would definitely help, as it encourages people to actually finish that dungeon (although the same again also goes for a smart reward system; so even if you queue for ALL dungeons, you still get a better reward for sticking with DLC IF you get it). However, I don't see a non-DLC queue with lower rewards doing anything. These people are already used to the current random reward. Why would they switch? What stops them from complaining that it's still possible to group with a low level and get a better reward for doing the same thing? What incentive is there for them to STOP using the full random queue, if the 15 minutes cooldown evidently isn't enough to deter them? In my opinion the 'lower reward' queue already exists in form of the specific dungeon search... It's just no bonus reward cause you're not doing random.
The problem is that you're not just looking to add a higher incentive to queuing for DLC, you're also trying to add an incentive for people to stop queuing for Full-Random if they don't wanna run DLC. But we can't add any sort of incentive to a base-random queue, because that will lure people away from what we're trying to actually add incentive to (finishing DLC). Unless they are separate rewards.
But in the end this then also really stops being a 'Random Dungeon' I most cases.

Well I must have missed where you said you believe a DLC only queue (with a better reward, which is fine by me) would help - because that is exactly what I am asking for here. So it seems we actually agree on the fundamental point. I thought you were opposed to adding another queue due to to it being excessive or something like that.

After going back and reading our recent exchange, it seems to me our main point of difference is you believe the "[snip] area" (those players who would whether do an easy random vs a DLC one) are a net-benefit to those seeking to do specific DLC content where as I believe they are an impediment. But that's fine. We agree on the larger point which is more important to me anyway.

[Edit for bait.]

I'm probably not expressing myself as clearly as I think either, so maybe I'm hard to understand right now. I just think that a DLC-only queue should be added onto the current system -- not that it should be split up into one base and one DLC queue with the full random going poof.

But yes, I do believe in the [snip] area. Without them, populating DLC partials would be much harder. But the true numbers of that, only ZOS knows.

[Edit for bait.]

Hapexamendios · November 2019

Jeremy wrote: »

Hapexamendios wrote: »

If you have access to them, them being the random is fair.

But what about that person who is specifically queuing up for DLC content but keeps getting grouped with players looking for a base game easy random and having his or her group disbanded on account of that?

Is that fair?

The vast majority of people I know don’t use the dungeon finder for DLC content. If you do, you know what you’re in for. So yes, it is fair.

Jeremy · November 2019

Raisin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

I'll say what I said in the last thread: If you get a random queue that excludes DLC dungeons, I get a queue that excludes base game dungeons. It's not fair if others get to say "I want a random dungeon but not that one" and I don't. Getting a base game dungeon is as excruciating for me as it is to get a DLC one for you. DLC dungeons do not feel long to me because I enjoy them (yes even with terrible PUGs time passes fast)... Base game dungeons just feel like they drag on forever just because I can't stand the dullness anymore.
It's still a terrible idea IMO, but I don't wanna repeat the same arguments every week when a new thread on this pops up. I just worry that if we lose the energy to disagree, ZOS will listen to the people demanding this to make it stop.

That would be the effect of placing the more difficult Veteran DLC dungeons into their own category. Then players could random DLC dungeons specifically (instead of the base ones also).

So if you are player who is looking specifically to do Veteran DLC Dungeons, I don't really understand why you would be against this idea. I can't imagine you enjoy being grouped with players who bail as soon as they see it's a DLC dungeon.

One suggestion I brought up in the recent thread about this was to consider removing the concept of the Daily Random entirely and replace it with a Daily First Dungeon instead, as that is what I believe most people really think of it as.
My other suggestion was specifically about ESO+ subscribers. Instead of simply enabling all (dungeon) DLC in their account, let them buy it from the crown store for 0 crowns -- or something less of a hassle, idk. But basically allow people who absolutely do not want to run DLC dungeons and don't want that DLC to refuse having it. I think that's very fair, as they truly did not ask for that content. People who do play the DLC dungeons however will still have it on their random queue, as it would not be fair for them to run it on their own time but keep it out of their random queue for an easy way out.

The idea of the random dungeon is so partial groups (which includes individuals) who are queued for a specific dungeon have a greater chance for others to fill their group. Obviously this includes DLC dungeons. So an idea where a player could just choose a specific dungeon would help at all since most would likely choose either a pledge dungeon or FG2.

What would work and is pretty straight forward is allow a means to opt out of the DLC dungeons. Offer a higher tier rewards for those who opt in and have it based on how many DLC dungeons they have access to. This also means someone who has chosen to now sub and has not bought any dungeon DLCs would automatically be opted out.

The better rewards would include gold quality drops, including jewelry The degree of the upgrade would be based on a point system or % of DLCs they have access to. This also makes sense because the risk vs reward is taken care of very well as it also allows players to opt out of DLCs as they choose to.

I should probably have specified that I wouldn't get rid of the rewards (maybe just the smaller one?) for random dungeons. I would just move the big once-per-day one so people are happy.

The idea of the reward for doing a random was not specifically to make players happy because they were getting a reward. It was to encourage use of the GF and to help fill groups for people queuing up with partial groups including for specific dungeons.

I was pointing out your suggesting mostly removes the incentive and eliminates most of the overall intended benefit.

Further, there already is a reward for doing a dungeon that is not random. That is the pledges.

And I was pointing out it was mostly a "would this interest you" type of suggestion I've offered in these threads before. :P
As I said, I would leave the reward for the random dungeons. I feel like that was clear? IDK what to say that I didn't already say, I told you I don't like the suggestion myself already. It just seems to me that "I want a special reward for running a dungeon once a day without the risk of not enjoying it" is what a lot of these discussions boil down to in the end. Which isn't the same thing as pledges obviously.
Idk there's this whole thoughtful discussion going on here and you're coming at me with some patronizing 'Did you know the random queue fills partial groups!!!' like it's some kind of epiphany you had and think other people don't know. xD

Jeremy wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

Jeremy wrote: »

Raisin wrote: »

I'll say what I said in the last thread: If you get a random queue that excludes DLC dungeons, I get a queue that excludes base game dungeons. It's not fair if others get to say "I want a random dungeon but not that one" and I don't. Getting a base game dungeon is as excruciating for me as it is to get a DLC one for you. DLC dungeons do not feel long to me because I enjoy them (yes even with terrible PUGs time passes fast)... Base game dungeons just feel like they drag on forever just because I can't stand the dullness anymore.
It's still a terrible idea IMO, but I don't wanna repeat the same arguments every week when a new thread on this pops up. I just worry that if we lose the energy to disagree, ZOS will listen to the people demanding this to make it stop.

That would be the effect of placing the more difficult Veteran DLC dungeons into their own category. Then players could random DLC dungeons specifically (instead of the base ones also).

So if you are player who is looking specifically to do Veteran DLC Dungeons, I don't really understand why you would be against this idea. I can't imagine you enjoy being grouped with players who bail as soon as they see it's a DLC dungeon.

So how many queues will there be then? One Random DLC, one Random Base, and one Actual Random? And then normal and vet versions of each? Ignoring the obvious fact that the dungeon finder would need to be fixed first (IMO that would make the whole discussion moot and what's the point then), it just seems excessive. It's either random or it's not random.

I don't really mind if people bail. It's one of the risks of pugging and you have to expect a certain wait time. I disagree with the fact that people want to get the reward for taking a risk (random) but without taking the risk. You are free to select all dungeons you like and let the game sort you into one of them. You don't get bonus EXP for it. It's a BONUS and you get it for fulfilling a certain criteria. You're not entitled to it and I think it's insane that people are so stubborn about getting the reward anyway that they have to lobby for the effort required for it to be reduced so it doesn't feel like an effort anymore. It's really okay to gain EXP doing something you enjoy instead. I think people need to consider adjusting their perspective so that the reward for random dungeons is more like an optional quest, and less like some kind of disguised login reward on their daily checklist.
As it stands right now, people can refuse a dungeon by taking the queue cooldown, or they can cheese the system by queueing with someone with a smaller pool of dungeons to draw from. This is something I've never seen anyone argue against and I think people should appreciate that they do have this option of tricking a randomizer to work in their favor.

I also think that the current system is healthier for populating DLC dungeons. If people are given the option, for the grey area pf people it will be tempting for many to exclude DLC dungeons. This would be fine from a perspective of choice, but we know that realistically we need to populate DLC dungeon groups. By grey area I mean people who are not inherently opposed to DLC dungeons. These people may not have chosen or rooted for a DLC dungeon, but they are willing to commit to it, and especially given a supportive group will enjoy it. We need these people, and we need the system to encourage them to fill DLC dungeon spots.

One suggestion I brought up in the recent thread about this was to consider removing the concept of the Daily Random entirely and replace it with a Daily First Dungeon instead, as that is what I believe most people really think of it as.
My other suggestion was specifically about ESO+ subscribers. Instead of simply enabling all (dungeon) DLC in their account, let them buy it from the crown store for 0 crowns -- or something less of a hassle, idk. But basically allow people who absolutely do not want to run DLC dungeons and don't want that DLC to refuse having it. I think that's very fair, as they truly did not ask for that content. People who do play the DLC dungeons however will still have it on their random queue, as it would not be fair for them to run it on their own time but keep it out of their random queue for an easy way out.

We already have separate random queues for normal and veteran. I don't see why it would be excessive to add one more for the higher tier DLC dungeons. The jump in challenge from normal mode to say a Fungal Groto 1 on Veteran is far less than the distance to one of the more difficult Veteran DLC dungeons. So from a game play point of view it makes sense

I also disagree that the current method helps to "populate" DLC dungeons. I believe it has the opposite effect. It discourages players who are actually looking do DLC dungeons on veteran because they frequently (and I would argue more often than not) get grouped with players who don't want to do them, which makes the group interaction in such a case a headache.

Yeah I didn't really consider that the non-DLC queue already exists, so that was a brain fail on my part.

I have pugged a crap ton of DLC dungeons and the times that a person bailed on the group are fairly rare. Anecdotal evidence there, of course. It's probably worse on normal, as people who want a quick run often don't queue for random vet in the first place. But that doesn't change the fact that the current system pushes the 'undecided' group into running DLC dungeons, while the proposed system would do the opposite. And we really need people to be pushed more towards DLC dungeons.

In the end, the bottom line remains that each person has absolute control over the dungeons they queue for. No one is forcing anyone. The EXP bonus is specifically awarded for choosing to relinquish that control and risk getting an option they really hate. That is the point of random, and that's why we get something for it. It's the incentive. Either the incentive is large enough for you to take the risk, or it's not worth it and you queue for a limited dungeon selection instead. You don't get the best of both worlds.
Running a "fast and easy" random dungeon is an exciting possibility, but it is not a right.

This misses the point.

I am not talking about what people's "rights" are or whether or not people have control over what dungeons they queue up for. I am talking about ways to improve the efficiency of the Group % Activity finder. The current "incentives" are obviously not enough considering how frequently people simply bail or leave as soon as they see a difficult DLC dungeon come up.

This is also not a productive situation for those players who actually are wanting to do specific DLC dungeons. Those players who specifically queue up for those specific dungeons and exercise complete control over which dungeon he or she queues up for (as you point out in your post) still winds up being grouped with other players who are just trying to do a random base dungeon under the current method. So by bringing that up you highlighting why the current system doesn't work effectively.

Well then you're just looking to add incentives; adding a lower reward queue for base game dungeons won't do that in any way. That would actually snip that queue idea completely, and leave us with only adding a hardcore DLC only queue with better rewards. Or a smart reward system that rewards you based on the dungeon you run.

I've explained twice now why it's still better for those people than what you're proposing (and my disapproval of how you keep implying that queueing for a DLC PUG means burning through a series of people who ditch you upon entering the dungeon. I'm willing to accept that I've been lucky, but the image you're painting just isn't realistic.) Nothing more I can do. Bolding and italicizing a bunch of words doesn't change the fact that you seem to barely have read what I said and aren't bringing up any good points.

Why you think it' isn't realistic to simply put the harder DLC dungeons into a different category (something they already do when it comes to normal vs veteran) makes no sense to me. It's entirely "realistic" and could be done easily.

I also disagree with you that it benefits people who are trying to do specific DLC dungeons to have to burn through a series of people who have no interest in doing DLC content and are just looking for a easy random. That sounds ridiculous to me, and just wastes that person's time. I would much rather wait in a queue for a long period of time then join a group that plans to quit at the beginning over and over.

...
Me: So the solution would be an extra queue that's just DLC.
You: Why don't you think it's realistic to have an extra queue with just DLC?

Me: I think your image of people having to 'burn through a bunch of people' every DLC dungeon is exaggerated and inaccurate.
You: I disagree with you saying it benefits people to burn through a bunch of people every DLC dungeon.

I mean am I in the twilight zone? At what point did we go from having what I thought was a reasonable discussion to you only reading every second word I write and trolling me?

Someone ditching a DLC dungeon at the beginning happens maybe once every few runs. Having two people bail in a row had happened to me maybe an amount of times I can count on one hand. As I said, I'm willing to accept that I've gotten lucky and others have had worse experiences, but what you're describing still sounds incredibly overdramatized. When a person bailed and you have to wait again, that is the longer wait time you're okay with.
And that STILL doesn't change the fact that the DLC queue being filled relies on the large amount of grey area people that need a push to commit to the DLC dungeon. Removing the completely uninterested parties in this case would just also remove too many from the middle ground.

Well I'm not trolling you... at least not intentionally. It is 1 am so if I'm not understanding you correctly chalk it up to delirium.

To avoid further misunderstanding - explain to me how the current system benefits players who are wanting to do specific DLC dungeons? Because I could have swore you were saying it helps because it throws more people into your queue who are just there for the random. But maybe I misunderstood.

It's 7am here so if I vanish you know why.

There is a large amount of people who are there just for the random AND are content getting DLC as a result. Those people are great at filling the partial DPC groups. By adding an option to do a fast and easy base game random for the reward, you will not just remove the people who bail in DLC dungeons from the pool to fill up DLC partials, but you will also remove aforementioned grey area folks. They are people that wouldn't be upset at getting DLC, but would probably pick the easy way out queue if offered. The current system prevents this from happening and instead gives these people that little push. Proposing that only people who actively choose to queue for a potential DLC dungeon will fill a partial just substantially lowers the amount of people available. I believe you will still have a faster result getting 1 person who ditches you and continuing to look in the bigger pool than waiting for a result from the much smaller pool.
As I said, a DLC-only queue with better rewards would definitely help, as it encourages people to actually finish that dungeon (although the same again also goes for a smart reward system; so even if you queue for ALL dungeons, you still get a better reward for sticking with DLC IF you get it). However, I don't see a non-DLC queue with lower rewards doing anything. These people are already used to the current random reward. Why would they switch? What stops them from complaining that it's still possible to group with a low level and get a better reward for doing the same thing? What incentive is there for them to STOP using the full random queue, if the 15 minutes cooldown evidently isn't enough to deter them? In my opinion the 'lower reward' queue already exists in form of the specific dungeon search... It's just no bonus reward cause you're not doing random.
The problem is that you're not just looking to add a higher incentive to queuing for DLC, you're also trying to add an incentive for people to stop queuing for Full-Random if they don't wanna run DLC. But we can't add any sort of incentive to a base-random queue, because that will lure people away from what we're trying to actually add incentive to (finishing DLC). Unless they are separate rewards.
But in the end this then also really stops being a 'Random Dungeon' I most cases.

Well I must have missed where you said you believe a DLC only queue (with a better reward, which is fine by me) would help - because that is exactly what I am asking for here. So it seems we actually agree on the fundamental point. I thought you were opposed to adding another queue due to to it being excessive or something like that.

After going back and reading our recent exchange, it seems to me our main point of difference is you believe the "[snip] area" (those players who would whether do an easy random vs a DLC one) are a net-benefit to those seeking to do specific DLC content where as I believe they are an impediment. But that's fine. We agree on the larger point which is more important to me anyway.

[Edit for bait.]

I'm probably not expressing myself as clearly as I think either, so maybe I'm hard to understand right now. I just think that a DLC-only queue should be added onto the current system -- not that it should be split up into one base and one DLC queue with the full random going poof.

But yes, I do believe in the [snip] area. Without them, populating DLC partials would be much harder. But the true numbers of that, only ZOS knows.

[Edit for bait.]

I meant gray area. lol

We're going to have to agree to disagree on that, I think. Which isn't surprising considering we have had vastly different experiences. You rarely encounter groups that drop when a difficult DLC dungeon pops up on their random queue where as it happens to me more often than not. And I'm not trying to exaggerate or imply something that isn't true here. That is literally just what happens.

I don't understand how you are going to add a DLC-only queue that has a better reward without splitting up the queue between base and DLC.