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This just feels awful.
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starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭TempPlayer wrote: »I know it sounds bad, but the only thing I can say is that you have 6 months to adapt till the next nerf/buff hit.
Or if you have access to the PTS forum, you can check ahead to see what will be heading your way.
3 months. Until the next braindead 180° flip on everything. In 3 months casual players manage to barely finish farming and "golding up" their gear and then it's already time to trash it all.
Casuals don't gold out their gear, @Vahrokh. Hell, most of the time, they're not even running complete sets.3 -
Seperatist✭✭✭Welcome to dps world at the season of the dragon.Immoltal ledeemel, (un)chained, Gryphon Fat, Thicc Tocc Tolmenter, Grand overbruhlord, Kekslayer. "You know you don't have to be here right"1 -
Dread_Viking✭✭✭✭darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »This past week I made some improvements to my gear, swapped out my stealth set for a dps one, started getting into alchemy for good pots etc. By all accounts, compared to a week ago I should be seeing a huge improvement. However I was struggling to maintain even the same numbers I had last week. I couldn't figure out what the hell I was doing wrong so I looked at the patch notes. Lo and behold I discover that the effectiveness of the majority of my build was cut almost in half. Like seriously...wtaf were these people thinking? Damage of abilities being cut by as much as 40-50%? Do you people not care at all about how garbage it feels to have all your effort just thrown out the window?
What incentive could I or anyone else in my position have to continue trying to improve my character when you pull crap like this?
okey so me and some guildis was talking about this yesterday and we believe we know why thy have done this i wont spoil it but most players will love it and yes we will have to suffer for a bit before we see the new features implemented but if we are right you wont complain thenDon't worry girl I'm a Sorcerer, i got my Hardened Ward for protection0 -
FearlessOne_2014✭✭✭✭✭
✭You can always uninstall and look for another game. I don't think I'll play ESO through this update. Battle Royals like Apex and Spellbreaker are quite fun. Even started modding Skyrim again. I guess if you have to play a MMO, GW2 may hold you over.
As for me, I expect to take a break from ESO. While it's so clunky and not fun to play. Maybe I'll return, maybe I won't.0 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »TempPlayer wrote: »I know it sounds bad, but the only thing I can say is that you have 6 months to adapt till the next nerf/buff hit.
Or if you have access to the PTS forum, you can check ahead to see what will be heading your way.
3 months. Until the next braindead 180° flip on everything. In 3 months casual players manage to barely finish farming and "golding up" their gear and then it's already time to trash it all.
Casuals don't gold out their gear, @Vahrokh. Hell, most of the time, they're not even running complete sets.
I think we should talk about where we draw the line at „casuals“. Just because people don’t farm and practice nonstop to compensate each patch doesn’t mean they are invest absolutely nothing.3 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@Chilly-McFreeze, I think, rather, we should talk a little about personal responsibility. If you're feeling burned by a change, because you goldded out your gear, and worked towards something, that's entirely understandable. More than that, it's valid.
What I object to are the individuals who frame their personal experiences as affecting the ill-defined masses in an attempt to give their grievances more weight.0 -
srfrogg23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »This past week I made some improvements to my gear, swapped out my stealth set for a dps one, started getting into alchemy for good pots etc. By all accounts, compared to a week ago I should be seeing a huge improvement. However I was struggling to maintain even the same numbers I had last week. I couldn't figure out what the hell I was doing wrong so I looked at the patch notes. Lo and behold I discover that the effectiveness of the majority of my build was cut almost in half. Like seriously...wtaf were these people thinking? Damage of abilities being cut by as much as 40-50%? Do you people not care at all about how garbage it feels to have all your effort just thrown out the window?
What incentive could I or anyone else in my position have to continue trying to improve my character when you pull crap like this?
Go back to your old build and see how effective it is compared to the new one after the patch changes.0 -
mairwen85✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Dread_Viking wrote: »darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »This past week I made some improvements to my gear, swapped out my stealth set for a dps one, started getting into alchemy for good pots etc. By all accounts, compared to a week ago I should be seeing a huge improvement. However I was struggling to maintain even the same numbers I had last week. I couldn't figure out what the hell I was doing wrong so I looked at the patch notes. Lo and behold I discover that the effectiveness of the majority of my build was cut almost in half. Like seriously...wtaf were these people thinking? Damage of abilities being cut by as much as 40-50%? Do you people not care at all about how garbage it feels to have all your effort just thrown out the window?
What incentive could I or anyone else in my position have to continue trying to improve my character when you pull crap like this?
okey so me and some guildis was talking about this yesterday and we believe we know why thy have done this i wont spoil it but most players will love it and yes we will have to suffer for a bit before we see the new features implemented but if we are right you wont complain then
OK, I'll bite... Share your theory with the group instead of dangling a malformed ambiguous carrot hoping someone chases. I'm going to say you're talking from between the wrong cheeks...
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BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »This past week I made some improvements to my gear, swapped out my stealth set for a dps one, started getting into alchemy for good pots etc. By all accounts, compared to a week ago I should be seeing a huge improvement. However I was struggling to maintain even the same numbers I had last week. I couldn't figure out what the hell I was doing wrong so I looked at the patch notes. Lo and behold I discover that the effectiveness of the majority of my build was cut almost in half. Like seriously...wtaf were these people thinking? Damage of abilities being cut by as much as 40-50%? Do you people not care at all about how garbage it feels to have all your effort just thrown out the window?
What incentive could I or anyone else in my position have to continue trying to improve my character when you pull crap like this?
So you're saying you had really high damage with a stealth set and your sustain was great without potions?
This is the problem with what happened in the first place. Damage was at a place where it was insanely high and people were getting into content far beyond their current skill level. That is something that should never have been allowed to happen in the first place and the new combat team is trying to reel in what happened.
Where did they say they had high dps? It sounds to me they had a fun "stealth" set and had to sacrifice it just to get back to the dps they had before.
ZOS has explicitly stated that they don't want people to "have it all", they want us to have to choose what to prioritize, at the cost of other options. They said that with stealth, and they said that with speed.
I don’t understand this response.
The person had a dps number that they had while wearing a stealth set. Now even without the set and with some other improvements they are back to the same dps. They never claimed the actual dps number, it could have been quite low.
Is the choice now that wearing a stealth set translates to having zero dps? Is wearing a stealth set mean the player should be helpless in a fight?
“Having it all” implies high dps and stealth, but where is the evidence that was happening here?
You said that they may have had to sacrifice a fun stealth set to get back to their pre-patch DPS. And ZOS has said that they want people to have the ability to reach 100% max possible stealth or speed, but at the cost of other things, such as DPS, sustain, etc. Here is an example:
And you know very well that we discussed this at length in a now closed thread about how Bosmer can still reach the stealth cap, but they now have to give up utility or damage or defense sets to run three stealth sets, due to the stripping of their racial stealth. And the mantra is evident with Update 24, as they whittle away DPS and force people to sacrifice other things, such as defense or sustain (or, as in this particular case, stealth) in order for players to maintain the DPS that they are used to.
It's pretty common knowledge that the three stealth sets in game are not optimal damage sets. So, yes, the player who gives up his stealth set can see an improvement to pre-patch levels by wearing a more damage oriented set. But he will still need to carry around a change of clothes if he wants to suddenly start stealing and improve his chances of not being detected.
I get what your saying but my original response was to someone who claimed this guy was running a stealth set AND had high dps. My exertion was that there was no evidence that the guy had high dps before. And that would/should be true if they were running a stealth set.
So assuming the guy had mediocre or low dps BFORE this patch (because of the stealth set) they had to sacrifice the stealth set to get BACK to that low to mediocre dps.
So if a person wears a stealth set now what should be the minimum dps expected? Super low? Non existent?
Edit: The whole thing, the dps nerf, how they handled bosmers and just how they handle stealth just reeks of poor combat design.Edited by BlueRaven on October 26, 2019 1:43PM4 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »This past week I made some improvements to my gear, swapped out my stealth set for a dps one, started getting into alchemy for good pots etc. By all accounts, compared to a week ago I should be seeing a huge improvement. However I was struggling to maintain even the same numbers I had last week. I couldn't figure out what the hell I was doing wrong so I looked at the patch notes. Lo and behold I discover that the effectiveness of the majority of my build was cut almost in half. Like seriously...wtaf were these people thinking? Damage of abilities being cut by as much as 40-50%? Do you people not care at all about how garbage it feels to have all your effort just thrown out the window?
What incentive could I or anyone else in my position have to continue trying to improve my character when you pull crap like this?
So you're saying you had really high damage with a stealth set and your sustain was great without potions?
This is the problem with what happened in the first place. Damage was at a place where it was insanely high and people were getting into content far beyond their current skill level. That is something that should never have been allowed to happen in the first place and the new combat team is trying to reel in what happened.
Where did they say they had high dps? It sounds to me they had a fun "stealth" set and had to sacrifice it just to get back to the dps they had before.
If you have a stealth set on instead of a dps one, then your damage is too high. They can continue using their fun "stealth" set all they want but it sounds like that was for content where it shouldn't be and that's not supposed to happen at all. Sorry guys some content does have requirements you have to hit.2 -
Tigerseye✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭itscompton wrote: »
When they say "play how you want" they don't mean dictate to them what your damage should be, even if the DPS you want might be OP compared with everyone else's.
Ahhh but no matter the numbers attached different styles of play should be viable.
Of course.
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Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Siohwenoeht wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »So you're saying you had really high damage with a stealth set and your sustain was great without potions?
This is the problem with what happened in the first place. Damage was at a place where it was insanely high and people were getting into content far beyond their current skill level. That is something that should never have been allowed to happen in the first place and the new combat team is trying to reel in what happened.
Do you guys read some of the crap you write before posting? Plain idiotic. Zos could nerf everything down so no one could do any content, does that mean you shouldn't have been there in the first place?
Couldn't agree more. Most of the content isn't the problem because even most dlc vet dungeons can be done with 20k dps which is attainable by almost everyone.
There are, however, plenty of attitudes that are the problem.
A question to ponder, @Rave the Histborn , how is a player supposed to improve their performance in any given content without playing that content? Everyone had a first vMA run that took hours; everyone stepped into their first dungeon without playing that content before.
I'm not saying we need to remove the player skill aspects of combat, it's personally my favorite part and it gives players something to strive for, but some of the groups requiring ridiculous dps in the group finder are part of the problem.
Player skill involves a lot of things which includes adaptability. Normally players in progressions situations continue improving their skill. It doesn't involve crying on the forums.
I'm not sure why but the forums has this "woe is mentality" and doesn't seem to realize this affects everyone and they're not the first players to experience a nerf.0 -
darthgummibear_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »This past week I made some improvements to my gear, swapped out my stealth set for a dps one, started getting into alchemy for good pots etc. By all accounts, compared to a week ago I should be seeing a huge improvement. However I was struggling to maintain even the same numbers I had last week. I couldn't figure out what the hell I was doing wrong so I looked at the patch notes. Lo and behold I discover that the effectiveness of the majority of my build was cut almost in half. Like seriously...wtaf were these people thinking? Damage of abilities being cut by as much as 40-50%? Do you people not care at all about how garbage it feels to have all your effort just thrown out the window?
What incentive could I or anyone else in my position have to continue trying to improve my character when you pull crap like this?
So you're saying you had really high damage with a stealth set and your sustain was great without potions?
This is the problem with what happened in the first place. Damage was at a place where it was insanely high and people were getting into content far beyond their current skill level. That is something that should never have been allowed to happen in the first place and the new combat team is trying to reel in what happened.
Where did they say they had high dps? It sounds to me they had a fun "stealth" set and had to sacrifice it just to get back to the dps they had before.
If you have a stealth set on instead of a dps one, then your damage is too high. They can continue using their fun "stealth" set all they want but it sounds like that was for content where it shouldn't be and that's not supposed to happen at all. Sorry guys some content does have requirements you have to hit.
Once again you deliberately miss the point.6 -
Raideen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »TempPlayer wrote: »I know it sounds bad, but the only thing I can say is that you have 6 months to adapt till the next nerf/buff hit.
Or if you have access to the PTS forum, you can check ahead to see what will be heading your way.
3 months. Until the next braindead 180° flip on everything. In 3 months casual players manage to barely finish farming and "golding up" their gear and then it's already time to trash it all.
Casuals don't gold out their gear, @Vahrokh. Hell, most of the time, they're not even running complete sets.
Wow, waaaaay incorrect.
I am about as casual as it gets. I gold my sets when I can afford them, I make sure I use 2 set bonuses and a monster set or 2 monster sets to boost stats.
My GF does the same. We hate animation cancelling due to its clunky playstyle (in our opinion its the worst thing about this game), she has neve been in a trial or a vet. I have been in a handful of trials and will run most vets with pugs.
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Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »@Chilly-McFreeze, I think, rather, we should talk a little about personal responsibility. If you're feeling burned by a change, because you goldded out your gear, and worked towards something, that's entirely understandable. More than that, it's valid.
What I object to are the individuals who frame their personal experiences as affecting the ill-defined masses in an attempt to give their grievances more weight.
Overall I agree with you in this post. I just think the "all casuals couldn't care less" approach is a bit slippery.
Some people see this as a pure game without being a solid theorycrafter/min maxer etc. and enjoy getting better without practicing ad nauseam on a dummy, forcing themselves to farm again every 10 weeks. etc. Yet they're still looking to progress, and if it's only to completing basegame vetdungeons at all. That's also what irks me about that quote of Tales (assuming I understand it correctly):Taleof2Cities wrote: »How many players in this thread started working on their Dragonhold build when the combat changes were loaded into PTS the middle of September?
Exactly.
Why should "the casual" be on his toes every other month just to catch up to over-the-top nerfs?
If these "casuals" (whatever that may include) feel the wide balance swings too we should appreciate their experience as well.
That doesn't contradict the fact that everyone who truely wants to be comptetitive (read: leaderboard, endgame, vet trials etc.) has to invest a lot to get there. Just saying that pulling the rug out from under casuals feets too won't serve this game too well.
And in the end this is neither about me or you and I personally don't know how much those players are affected. So I have to rely on forum posts here.
However, I'm not saying an individual alone shall speak for a whole part of the playerbase, that I can definitely agree on as well.
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BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »This past week I made some improvements to my gear, swapped out my stealth set for a dps one, started getting into alchemy for good pots etc. By all accounts, compared to a week ago I should be seeing a huge improvement. However I was struggling to maintain even the same numbers I had last week. I couldn't figure out what the hell I was doing wrong so I looked at the patch notes. Lo and behold I discover that the effectiveness of the majority of my build was cut almost in half. Like seriously...wtaf were these people thinking? Damage of abilities being cut by as much as 40-50%? Do you people not care at all about how garbage it feels to have all your effort just thrown out the window?
What incentive could I or anyone else in my position have to continue trying to improve my character when you pull crap like this?
So you're saying you had really high damage with a stealth set and your sustain was great without potions?
This is the problem with what happened in the first place. Damage was at a place where it was insanely high and people were getting into content far beyond their current skill level. That is something that should never have been allowed to happen in the first place and the new combat team is trying to reel in what happened.
Where did they say they had high dps? It sounds to me they had a fun "stealth" set and had to sacrifice it just to get back to the dps they had before.
If you have a stealth set on instead of a dps one, then your damage is too high. They can continue using their fun "stealth" set all they want but it sounds like that was for content where it shouldn't be and that's not supposed to happen at all. Sorry guys some content does have requirements you have to hit.
So stealth sets should equal zero dps? Seriously? If the get into a fight they just die?
@Jaraal See the nonsense I was replying to originally?2 -
croninjoshua✭✭darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »This past week I made some improvements to my gear, swapped out my stealth set for a dps one, started getting into alchemy for good pots etc. By all accounts, compared to a week ago I should be seeing a huge improvement. However I was struggling to maintain even the same numbers I had last week. I couldn't figure out what the hell I was doing wrong so I looked at the patch notes. Lo and behold I discover that the effectiveness of the majority of my build was cut almost in half. Like seriously...wtaf were these people thinking? Damage of abilities being cut by as much as 40-50%? Do you people not care at all about how garbage it feels to have all your effort just thrown out the window?
What incentive could I or anyone else in my position have to continue trying to improve my character when you pull crap like this?
Welcome to the shafting that magsorc is getting. Congrats. Nooooow stamina has something to actually complain about. (yes, downvote me, we know you want to)1 -
BloodMagicLord✭✭✭✭darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »This past week I made some improvements to my gear, swapped out my stealth set for a dps one, started getting into alchemy for good pots etc. By all accounts, compared to a week ago I should be seeing a huge improvement. However I was struggling to maintain even the same numbers I had last week. I couldn't figure out what the hell I was doing wrong so I looked at the patch notes. Lo and behold I discover that the effectiveness of the majority of my build was cut almost in half. Like seriously...wtaf were these people thinking? Damage of abilities being cut by as much as 40-50%? Do you people not care at all about how garbage it feels to have all your effort just thrown out the window?
What incentive could I or anyone else in my position have to continue trying to improve my character when you pull crap like this?
This is why I started playing tank instead of DPS. Much less changes between metas.PC EU | Tank | Immortal Redeemer | Gryphon Heart
STOP CLASS HOMOGENISATION0 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »This past week I made some improvements to my gear, swapped out my stealth set for a dps one, started getting into alchemy for good pots etc. By all accounts, compared to a week ago I should be seeing a huge improvement. However I was struggling to maintain even the same numbers I had last week. I couldn't figure out what the hell I was doing wrong so I looked at the patch notes. Lo and behold I discover that the effectiveness of the majority of my build was cut almost in half. Like seriously...wtaf were these people thinking? Damage of abilities being cut by as much as 40-50%? Do you people not care at all about how garbage it feels to have all your effort just thrown out the window?
What incentive could I or anyone else in my position have to continue trying to improve my character when you pull crap like this?
So you're saying you had really high damage with a stealth set and your sustain was great without potions?
This is the problem with what happened in the first place. Damage was at a place where it was insanely high and people were getting into content far beyond their current skill level. That is something that should never have been allowed to happen in the first place and the new combat team is trying to reel in what happened.
Where did they say they had high dps? It sounds to me they had a fun "stealth" set and had to sacrifice it just to get back to the dps they had before.
If you have a stealth set on instead of a dps one, then your damage is too high. They can continue using their fun "stealth" set all they want but it sounds like that was for content where it shouldn't be and that's not supposed to happen at all. Sorry guys some content does have requirements you have to hit.
Once again you deliberately miss the point.
Tell ya what. When you say more then no you're wrong I'll be slightly more impressed0 -
SirAxen✭✭✭✭✭wtlonewolf20 wrote: »darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »A lot of the people in this thread seemed to have missed the point. If a relatively casual player like myself notices the difference to this extent there is something wrong.
I'm not a competitive raider, and I rarely pvp. I spent most of what I had getting my new gear up to par, and it's really demoralizing to have my efforts in trying to improve my character mean nothing. What was the point of these rather extreme changes? What is their intended goal? If I manage to "fix" things in a way that's fun for me, will I be in this same spot again after their next update?
As a relatively casual player myself I actually have not noticed much of a change. What do you play as? I just soloed my first normal dungeon and first VMA run on my stam sorc. My mag sorc seems fine. As does my stamplar. My necros are ok as well. I havnt checked any other builds yet.
This. I have literally noticed zero difference on three of my characters whatsoever.0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »TempPlayer wrote: »I know it sounds bad, but the only thing I can say is that you have 6 months to adapt till the next nerf/buff hit.
Or if you have access to the PTS forum, you can check ahead to see what will be heading your way.
3 months. Until the next braindead 180° flip on everything. In 3 months casual players manage to barely finish farming and "golding up" their gear and then it's already time to trash it all.
Casuals don't gold out their gear, @Vahrokh. Hell, most of the time, they're not even running complete sets.
Wow, waaaaay incorrect.
I am about as casual as it gets. I gold my sets when I can afford them, I make sure I use 2 set bonuses and a monster set or 2 monster sets to boost stats.
My GF does the same. We hate animation cancelling due to its clunky playstyle (in our opinion its the worst thing about this game), she has neve been in a trial or a vet. I have been in a handful of trials and will run most vets with pugs.
Then you are not a casual player.
Case in point:I raid since 2001, maybe - just maybe - I have seen how MMOs go.
Casual players do not raid. They don't have decades of raiding experience.
They have neither the resources, nor the time, to gold out their gear. Even just goldding out their weapons (which is where you should stop) is beyond their commitment to the game.
Gearing up and upgrading your gear to legendary is not the behavior of a casual. Running challenging endgame content that actually benefits from gold gear is also, not the behavior of a casual.
You are not a casual. You do not speak for them. That you seem to think you are indicates you do not understand the group you're trying to identify with. It is an act of misdirection attempting to grant your own perspective more weight than it deserves.3 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »I just think the "all casuals couldn't care less" approach is a bit slippery.
It is, @Chilly-McFreeze. At the same time, there is a bit of truth in that line from Gil about a casual "not caring if their spammable did a billion damage." The important takeaway is getting lost in the hyperbole. A casual isn't likely to care much if a skill's damage is increased or decreased, even if those changes are by large margins, so long as they're still able to complete the content they're attempting.Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Why should "the casual" be on his toes every other month just to catch up to over-the-top nerfs?
They shouldn't, and probably aren't.Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »If these "casuals" (whatever that may include) feel the wide balance swings too we should appreciate their experience as well.
Yeah, this is important. But, this is where things start to get a little weird.
So, thanks to comments from Rich awhile back, we actually know how casual players approach the game (more or less,) and it's kinda interesting:
Casuals primarily run overland content, they'll usually knock out a zone over the course of a couple weeks to a month. Then they'll log out... and not come back, until a couple months later, when they repeat the process again.
At the risk of reading too much into this, it starts to sound like casual players are less likely to realize major balance changes are, well, changes to balance, and not changes based on the content they're running, if they notice the difference at all.
It passes a scratch and sniff test. If someone bought and played Elsweyr after Scalebreaker came out, but then was away from the game, and only came back now, with Dragonhold, they might not realize the AoE nerfs were, well, nerfs, and not the product of Southern Elseweyr being a different zone.Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »That doesn't contradict the fact that everyone who truely wants to be comptetitive (read: leaderboard, endgame, vet trials etc.) has to invest a lot to get there. Just saying that pulling the rug out from under casuals feets too won't serve this game too well.
This is where there's a huge jump. So, your "casual" running overland content is pushing 2.5-5k DPS. When you start dealing with people who are wanting to run vet content, they're pushing 15-30k live (with much higher dummy parses.)
These are the players who are most affected by these kinds of major balance changes. They're also the ones you'll see the least sympathy from me over. This is a little more complicated than it looks.
So, these guys really can have doors closed to them by a nerf. They're on the razor's edge of being able to clear content, looking at the leaderboards saying, "some day, that'll be me." Thing about these guys, and the reason I'm not going to pat them on the head is, they can do better. They got where they are through self-improvement, and they need to believe in their own ability to progress if they want to keep doing what they're enjoying. They're way off the upper thresholds for their class, they've got a lot of work to do, and if they sit down, sulk, and start crying about how "this nerf broke me," they'll never improve. So, even though I have some sympathy for the situation, you'll see me shut them down pretty hard, because what they need to be doing is going right back in there and working to improve further. They made it this far, they can do better.
Now, in content, it's 180 degrees. I'm not going to tear someone a new ******* because I thought they were under-performing, or because we wiped. We wipe. That happens, and if you need to see it to understand what's going on, cool. If someone is putting in the effort, even if it's not enough, even if they're screwing up, I'm the last person that's going to call them on that.
To be fair, you'll see some of that out of me on the boards as well. It's contextual. If someone's genuinely struggling, or trying to improve, it's an entirely different story out of me.Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »And in the end this is neither about me or you and I personally don't know how much those players are affected. So I have to rely on forum posts here.
I do interact with some casuals on a semi-regular basis. Though (critically) not the same casuals.
I used to deal with a lot of progression players, who are in that middle tier, looking at the competitive community and saying, "I want to be that." Not so much lately, but I've got some understanding of what they're looking at.
I've had both experiences with the endgame community. The people who were genuinely fun to be around, and also the ambulatory dumpster fires of toxicity.
But, yeah, it's been a long time since I was a casual ESO player. I'm honestly not even sure when that transition happened.Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »However, I'm not saying an individual alone shall speak for a whole part of the playerbase, that I can definitely agree on as well.
Especially when they're trying to speak for someone else. Again, this whole, "I speak for the casuals" thing, from someone who is then articulating issues a casual player would never encounter, just drives me nuts.1 -
Morgha_Kul✭✭✭✭✭
✭darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »This past week I made some improvements to my gear, swapped out my stealth set for a dps one, started getting into alchemy for good pots etc. By all accounts, compared to a week ago I should be seeing a huge improvement. However I was struggling to maintain even the same numbers I had last week. I couldn't figure out what the hell I was doing wrong so I looked at the patch notes. Lo and behold I discover that the effectiveness of the majority of my build was cut almost in half. Like seriously...wtaf were these people thinking? Damage of abilities being cut by as much as 40-50%? Do you people not care at all about how garbage it feels to have all your effort just thrown out the window?
What incentive could I or anyone else in my position have to continue trying to improve my character when you pull crap like this?
I feel your pain. I used to do around 10k DPS, which was quite enough for me. It took a fair bit of gearing to get to that, but I didn't really WANT more damage, because it would trivialize the game.
Then they did an update and my DPS dropped to about 5-6k. That stung, but it was ok. I always build to survive, not to do damage. I don't mind if it takes a bit longer, makes the fight more dramatic.
Then they did another update, and now my DPS is between 2-5k. I do almost 2k BARE HANDED. My durability hasn't suffered all that much, at least (knocking furiously on wood), but it's really taxing to have to spend half an hour at minimum to kill a world boss, when it USED to go a fair bit quicker.
The damage levels were, and still ARE, out of control. The problem wasn't the little guys like me doing 10k dps, it was the upper end of the curve, where I hear of people doing up to 100k dps, with the "norm" being 30-50k. They needed to do something to scale THOSE numbers back, to make the disparity between the bottom and the top damage somewhat less drastic. I recommended a system of diminishing returns, where the higher your dps goes, the HARDER it is to increase it further. Top level DPS shouldn't exceed, probably 20-30k. At that level, people won't be obliterating everything in less than a second, which means more potential challenge for THEM, and less chance that others won't have access to the content (either because it's all dead already, or because the damage requirements are SO far beyond them that they can't contribute).
I feel, and have said, that I think it's needed for the health of the game. It might mean scaling back some of the higher end content so it's not as challenging as it is now, to accommodate the lower dps at the high end, but that should be easily done.Exploring Tamriel since 1994.0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
LOL, you don't get to make that decision.starkerealm wrote: »
Then you are not a casual player.
I am casual, but casual does not mean ignorant.
I cant even be bothered to log in every day just to do my dailies. Just because I read how to build sets and try make my toon stronger does not mean I am hard core. I would say 98% of my vets have been pugs, probably close to 100% for normal dungeons.
Hows this for ya, this account is two years old and only ONE character has all his mount stuff at 60. I am still working on the rest of them. I don't have bank or character slot maxed on anyone, its too expensive.
Yeah, you're running vet dungeons. Even getting to level 50 takes you into a small subset of players. When you're intentionally flicking the groupfinder over to vet, you're no longer a casual player. You're engaging with endgame activities at that point.1 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Morgha_Kul wrote: »darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »This past week I made some improvements to my gear, swapped out my stealth set for a dps one, started getting into alchemy for good pots etc. By all accounts, compared to a week ago I should be seeing a huge improvement. However I was struggling to maintain even the same numbers I had last week. I couldn't figure out what the hell I was doing wrong so I looked at the patch notes. Lo and behold I discover that the effectiveness of the majority of my build was cut almost in half. Like seriously...wtaf were these people thinking? Damage of abilities being cut by as much as 40-50%? Do you people not care at all about how garbage it feels to have all your effort just thrown out the window?
What incentive could I or anyone else in my position have to continue trying to improve my character when you pull crap like this?
I feel your pain. I used to do around 10k DPS, which was quite enough for me. It took a fair bit of gearing to get to that, but I didn't really WANT more damage, because it would trivialize the game.
Then they did an update and my DPS dropped to about 5-6k. That stung, but it was ok. I always build to survive, not to do damage. I don't mind if it takes a bit longer, makes the fight more dramatic.
Then they did another update, and now my DPS is between 2-5k. I do almost 2k BARE HANDED. My durability hasn't suffered all that much, at least (knocking furiously on wood), but it's really taxing to have to spend half an hour at minimum to kill a world boss, when it USED to go a fair bit quicker.
The damage levels were, and still ARE, out of control. The problem wasn't the little guys like me doing 10k dps, it was the upper end of the curve, where I hear of people doing up to 100k dps, with the "norm" being 30-50k. They needed to do something to scale THOSE numbers back, to make the disparity between the bottom and the top damage somewhat less drastic. I recommended a system of diminishing returns, where the higher your dps goes, the HARDER it is to increase it further. Top level DPS shouldn't exceed, probably 20-30k. At that level, people won't be obliterating everything in less than a second, which means more potential challenge for THEM, and less chance that others won't have access to the content (either because it's all dead already, or because the damage requirements are SO far beyond them that they can't contribute).
I feel, and have said, that I think it's needed for the health of the game. It might mean scaling back some of the higher end content so it's not as challenging as it is now, to accommodate the lower dps at the high end, but that should be easily done.
So, basically, no one's doing 100k. The 100k numbers that get thrown around, most of the time, are people parsing on the trial dummy. This is a training dummy that already has all of the relevant raid buffs/debuffs active. So, you're simulating your parse against a target in a "perfect" group. 40-50k is a more reasonable target.
There, is content in the game that would be impossible to complete if DPS was hard caped at 30k. (Not a lot, and most of it is tied to achievements, while not necessary for clears, but it does exist.)
Also, there are diminishing returns. Getting into your mid-20s, to mid-30s is pretty easy. In your case, the biggest stumbling block is probably just your weave.
So, weaving is mixing light attacks in with your active abilities. The entire thought processes is, there's a global cooldown of ~1s for each active ability, and a GCD of ~1s for each light (or heavy) attack. However, those GCDs are separate. So, what you do is, activate an ability, wait about half a second until the ability has actually applied, and then you light attack, about half a second later, you fire off your next ability, and then your next light attack. For someone who's doing low damage, even a partial weave can be an enormous damage increase.
Note that your weave timing will be slightly different based on your weapon. So, it may take some experimentation to get your timing down.1 -
Morgha_Kul✭✭✭✭✭
✭starkerealm wrote: »Morgha_Kul wrote: »darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »This past week I made some improvements to my gear, swapped out my stealth set for a dps one, started getting into alchemy for good pots etc. By all accounts, compared to a week ago I should be seeing a huge improvement. However I was struggling to maintain even the same numbers I had last week. I couldn't figure out what the hell I was doing wrong so I looked at the patch notes. Lo and behold I discover that the effectiveness of the majority of my build was cut almost in half. Like seriously...wtaf were these people thinking? Damage of abilities being cut by as much as 40-50%? Do you people not care at all about how garbage it feels to have all your effort just thrown out the window?
What incentive could I or anyone else in my position have to continue trying to improve my character when you pull crap like this?
I feel your pain. I used to do around 10k DPS, which was quite enough for me. It took a fair bit of gearing to get to that, but I didn't really WANT more damage, because it would trivialize the game.
Then they did an update and my DPS dropped to about 5-6k. That stung, but it was ok. I always build to survive, not to do damage. I don't mind if it takes a bit longer, makes the fight more dramatic.
Then they did another update, and now my DPS is between 2-5k. I do almost 2k BARE HANDED. My durability hasn't suffered all that much, at least (knocking furiously on wood), but it's really taxing to have to spend half an hour at minimum to kill a world boss, when it USED to go a fair bit quicker.
The damage levels were, and still ARE, out of control. The problem wasn't the little guys like me doing 10k dps, it was the upper end of the curve, where I hear of people doing up to 100k dps, with the "norm" being 30-50k. They needed to do something to scale THOSE numbers back, to make the disparity between the bottom and the top damage somewhat less drastic. I recommended a system of diminishing returns, where the higher your dps goes, the HARDER it is to increase it further. Top level DPS shouldn't exceed, probably 20-30k. At that level, people won't be obliterating everything in less than a second, which means more potential challenge for THEM, and less chance that others won't have access to the content (either because it's all dead already, or because the damage requirements are SO far beyond them that they can't contribute).
I feel, and have said, that I think it's needed for the health of the game. It might mean scaling back some of the higher end content so it's not as challenging as it is now, to accommodate the lower dps at the high end, but that should be easily done.
So, basically, no one's doing 100k. The 100k numbers that get thrown around, most of the time, are people parsing on the trial dummy. This is a training dummy that already has all of the relevant raid buffs/debuffs active. So, you're simulating your parse against a target in a "perfect" group. 40-50k is a more reasonable target.
There, is content in the game that would be impossible to complete if DPS was hard caped at 30k. (Not a lot, and most of it is tied to achievements, while not necessary for clears, but it does exist.)
Also, there are diminishing returns. Getting into your mid-20s, to mid-30s is pretty easy. In your case, the biggest stumbling block is probably just your weave.
So, weaving is mixing light attacks in with your active abilities. The entire thought processes is, there's a global cooldown of ~1s for each active ability, and a GCD of ~1s for each light (or heavy) attack. However, those GCDs are separate. So, what you do is, activate an ability, wait about half a second until the ability has actually applied, and then you light attack, about half a second later, you fire off your next ability, and then your next light attack. For someone who's doing low damage, even a partial weave can be an enormous damage increase.
Note that your weave timing will be slightly different based on your weapon. So, it may take some experimentation to get your timing down.
I understand that. My point remains, however. If it's this animation cancelling/weaving thing that's allowing players to reach such absurd levels of damage, then it's THAT they should be looking at. If that's what's creating the divide between ordinary players like me who don't really have any idea about weaving beyond the creation of quilts, rugs or hairpieces, and those with gigantic damage numbers, then curtailing the weaving should bring the TOP damage numbers down without reducing the lower damage people's numbers (well, not much).
Of course, doing this in isolation WOULD make some content unplayable, and it would need to be recalibrated accordingly.
Having said all that, my playstyle hasn't changed across all the updates, and I still took a 70-80% hit to my damage output that had nothing to do with a weave or lack of it.Exploring Tamriel since 1994.1 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Morgha_Kul wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »Morgha_Kul wrote: »darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »This past week I made some improvements to my gear, swapped out my stealth set for a dps one, started getting into alchemy for good pots etc. By all accounts, compared to a week ago I should be seeing a huge improvement. However I was struggling to maintain even the same numbers I had last week. I couldn't figure out what the hell I was doing wrong so I looked at the patch notes. Lo and behold I discover that the effectiveness of the majority of my build was cut almost in half. Like seriously...wtaf were these people thinking? Damage of abilities being cut by as much as 40-50%? Do you people not care at all about how garbage it feels to have all your effort just thrown out the window?
What incentive could I or anyone else in my position have to continue trying to improve my character when you pull crap like this?
I feel your pain. I used to do around 10k DPS, which was quite enough for me. It took a fair bit of gearing to get to that, but I didn't really WANT more damage, because it would trivialize the game.
Then they did an update and my DPS dropped to about 5-6k. That stung, but it was ok. I always build to survive, not to do damage. I don't mind if it takes a bit longer, makes the fight more dramatic.
Then they did another update, and now my DPS is between 2-5k. I do almost 2k BARE HANDED. My durability hasn't suffered all that much, at least (knocking furiously on wood), but it's really taxing to have to spend half an hour at minimum to kill a world boss, when it USED to go a fair bit quicker.
The damage levels were, and still ARE, out of control. The problem wasn't the little guys like me doing 10k dps, it was the upper end of the curve, where I hear of people doing up to 100k dps, with the "norm" being 30-50k. They needed to do something to scale THOSE numbers back, to make the disparity between the bottom and the top damage somewhat less drastic. I recommended a system of diminishing returns, where the higher your dps goes, the HARDER it is to increase it further. Top level DPS shouldn't exceed, probably 20-30k. At that level, people won't be obliterating everything in less than a second, which means more potential challenge for THEM, and less chance that others won't have access to the content (either because it's all dead already, or because the damage requirements are SO far beyond them that they can't contribute).
I feel, and have said, that I think it's needed for the health of the game. It might mean scaling back some of the higher end content so it's not as challenging as it is now, to accommodate the lower dps at the high end, but that should be easily done.
So, basically, no one's doing 100k. The 100k numbers that get thrown around, most of the time, are people parsing on the trial dummy. This is a training dummy that already has all of the relevant raid buffs/debuffs active. So, you're simulating your parse against a target in a "perfect" group. 40-50k is a more reasonable target.
There, is content in the game that would be impossible to complete if DPS was hard caped at 30k. (Not a lot, and most of it is tied to achievements, while not necessary for clears, but it does exist.)
Also, there are diminishing returns. Getting into your mid-20s, to mid-30s is pretty easy. In your case, the biggest stumbling block is probably just your weave.
So, weaving is mixing light attacks in with your active abilities. The entire thought processes is, there's a global cooldown of ~1s for each active ability, and a GCD of ~1s for each light (or heavy) attack. However, those GCDs are separate. So, what you do is, activate an ability, wait about half a second until the ability has actually applied, and then you light attack, about half a second later, you fire off your next ability, and then your next light attack. For someone who's doing low damage, even a partial weave can be an enormous damage increase.
Note that your weave timing will be slightly different based on your weapon. So, it may take some experimentation to get your timing down.
I understand that. My point remains, however. If it's this animation cancelling/weaving thing that's allowing players to reach such absurd levels of damage, then it's THAT they should be looking at. If that's what's creating the divide between ordinary players like me who don't really have any idea about weaving beyond the creation of quilts, rugs or hairpieces, and those with gigantic damage numbers, then curtailing the weaving should bring the TOP damage numbers down without reducing the lower damage people's numbers (well, not much).
Of course, doing this in isolation WOULD make some content unplayable, and it would need to be recalibrated accordingly.
Having said all that, my playstyle hasn't changed across all the updates, and I still took a 70-80% hit to my damage output that had nothing to do with a weave or lack of it.
If you dont want animation canceling go play a different game. Ita not leaving. If your dps took an 80% dps loss and you havent changed anything it's on you.0
