I've investigated why even the "casual players who kill dragons" are considering quitting now.

Vahrokh · October 2019

I've played the game and read my 5 guilds chats. 3 of them are for trading, 1 is a social PvE guild, one is "dedicated" PvE.

Well, for the first time I have seen "randoms" (those that the balance devs consider spending their happy time randomly killing dragons and stuff) complaining so much.
Usually, you see "activist" forum posters, PvPers, Youtubers and similar to complain about nerfs and similar.

Average Random Joes do not read the forums, do not read the ESO blog, do not watch videos. They just login, queue for some normal and vet keys and so on.
Well, for the first time even Random Joes are frustrated. Especially magicka players.
Now their class is just non functional any more. It's not enough to flip a couple of skills, re - re - re - re - re "adapt" the 1000th gear set and rotation.

This time basic gameplay blocks have just ceased to function. In my personal case I have used liquid lightning (or splash) since beta. It's even a more foundation class identiy skill than crystal fragments. And... voilà... it's gone. Fi-ni-shed. If you are so stupid to still use it, you are just a waste, you really want to place <generic faceless skill xyz> in its place.
But it's not just that. For the first time in 5 years I had to trash everything (including Maelstrom weapon) and grind a fire set. Because either you go all out NO AoE NO Dot fire spec, or you are just a piece of unmitigated garbage to your team. It's a 180° gameplay change enforced on you.

Sustain? Even worse. I completely hate fire specs, I adapted to heavy attack builds long ago. But now, even an heavy attack at every rotation is not enough any more!

This is not just "felt" by me. I actually run trials 80% of the time, so I am going to use potions, foods and have full healers support on that.

But this weighs heavily on those who do not run trials like me. The Random Jones. Until yesterday they could solo some stuff, now they ceased to.
2 rotations and they are out of magicka and die. Are people meant to buy tripots, golden food and maybe have an healbot follow them to just do random stuff outside of a trial?

The sustain nerf has been way too harsh.

"But you can slot regen enchants blah blah blah". Hell yeah! If only everybody had to. But no, classes that were already prevalent at top DPS, mainly stamina based, don't need any sacrifice. They parsed 100k 2 days ago and they'll parse top DPS tomorrow.
The others, who were behind to begin with (despite having to use melee Zaan set and sit at melee range to get healers buffs), now will be even more behind.

But this matters little to Random Joe.

What matters Random Joe is that now he gets kicked out of veteran dungeons (especially DLC) because now he just passed the thresold between "he's average but OK enough" and "no way, his DPS is way too low".

Actually, this whole post has been created because I precisely read on guild chat of a couple of guys experiencing exactly this.

Random Joe does not have the time or money to always get "no compromise" gold food, so he goes purple and his health (regen food) is too low now.

Meanwhile, the rich raider, goes all out golded, has full healers support everywhere and his DPS is still vastly enough to finish any kind of content (bar vSS timed run).

ZOS has landed low blows to a lot of people in the last 2 years, but this time they are hard hitting the majority, not just the "min-maxers-who-cry-at-losing-100-DPS".

It's like they have two teams:

content production developers, constantly working hard to deliver better and more gorgeous looking new regions, quests etc.
game balance developers, paid to discourage everyone, to remove fun (who finds fun to double heavy attack at each rotation?), remove class identity, remove flavour.

It's absurd.

ChunkyCat · October 2019

LadyNalcarya · October 2019

I agree. These constant changes have a horrible impact on average players that do not have time, resources or willingness to "adapt" every time. I suspect that this approach to balance is what makes the gap between "average" and "elite" bigger and bigger every patch. It's mind-boggling that ZOS combat team fails to see it.
And it's a shame that any new content and QoL changes get completely overshadowed by doom and gloom caused by more random nerfs. ZOS should stop trying to rebalance the game every patch, they should focus on small changes instead, to slightly (!!!) buff underperforming stuff, etc.

StormeReigns · October 2019

Korah_Eaglecry · October 2019

These passes always hit the average joe more than the top tier players. Top tier players have the time and investment in the game to adjust and do it quickly. But the majority are always playing a game of whack a mole with ZOS. With ZOS being the bat and the average joe the mole. Sometimes they get slightly hit, sometimes they don't get hit at all, others they get full on nerfed into the ground.

Im on console so I'm waiting to see what these changes are going to look like for me. But if I have to completely change up my playstyle on any of the main characters I run again. I will be taking a very long break from this game. There are other games out there and there is far more enjoyment and far less headache out there.

If ZOS wants to continue down this path of hard swings in the meta/balance passes every 3 months they're more than welcome to do it. But Ive played enough MMOs over the last 15 years to know nothing good can come of this pace of changes.

LuxLunae · October 2019

Vahrokh wrote: »

I've played the game and read my 5 guilds chats. 3 of them are for trading, 1 is a social PvE guild, one is "dedicated" PvE.

Well, for the first time I have seen "randoms" (those that the balance devs consider spending their happy time randomly killing dragons and stuff) complaining so much.
Usually, you see "activist" forum posters, PvPers, Youtubers and similar to complain about nerfs and similar.

Average Random Joes do not read the forums, do not read the ESO blog, do not watch videos. They just login, queue for some normal and vet keys and so on.
Well, for the first time even Random Joes are frustrated. Especially magicka players.
Now their class is just non functional any more. It's not enough to flip a couple of skills, re - re - re - re - re "adapt" the 1000th gear set and rotation.

This time basic gameplay blocks have just ceased to function. In my personal case I have used liquid lightning (or splash) since beta. It's even a more foundation class identiy skill than crystal fragments. And... voilà... it's gone. Fi-ni-shed. If you are so stupid to still use it, you are just a waste, you really want to place <generic faceless skill xyz> in its place.
But it's not just that. For the first time in 5 years I had to trash everything (including Maelstrom weapon) and grind a fire set. Because either you go all out NO AoE NO Dot fire spec, or you are just a piece of unmitigated garbage to your team. It's a 180° gameplay change enforced on you.

Sustain? Even worse. I completely hate fire specs, I adapted to heavy attack builds long ago. But now, even an heavy attack at every rotation is not enough any more!

This is not just "felt" by me. I actually run trials 80% of the time, so I am going to use potions, foods and have full healers support on that.

But this weighs heavily on those who do not run trials like me. The Random Jones. Until yesterday they could solo some stuff, now they ceased to.
2 rotations and they are out of magicka and die. Are people meant to buy tripots, golden food and maybe have an healbot follow them to just do random stuff outside of a trial?

The sustain nerf has been way too harsh.

"But you can slot regen enchants blah blah blah". Hell yeah! If only everybody had to. But no, classes that were already prevalent at top DPS, mainly stamina based, don't need any sacrifice. They parsed 100k 2 days ago and they'll parse top DPS tomorrow.
The others, who were behind to begin with (despite having to use melee Zaan set and sit at melee range to get healers buffs), now will be even more behind.

But this matters little to Random Joe.

What matters Random Joe is that now he gets kicked out of veteran dungeons (especially DLC) because now he just passed the thresold between "he's average but OK enough" and "no way, his DPS is way too low".

Actually, this whole post has been created because I precisely read on guild chat of a couple of guys experiencing exactly this.

Random Joe does not have the time or money to always get "no compromise" gold food, so he goes purple and his health (regen food) is too low now.

Meanwhile, the rich raider, goes all out golded, has full healers support everywhere and his DPS is still vastly enough to finish any kind of content (bar vSS timed run).

ZOS has landed low blows to a lot of people in the last 2 years, but this time they are hard hitting the majority, not just the "min-maxers-who-cry-at-losing-100-DPS".

It's like they have two teams:
content production developers, constantly working hard to deliver better and more gorgeous looking new regions, quests etc.

game balance developers, paid to discourage everyone, to remove fun (who finds fun to double heavy attack at each rotation?), remove class identity, remove flavour.

It's absurd.

screens or it didn't happen...it all is a product or your mind...random casual players... random joe...

The fact you call em random joes.. make me think this is a product of your mind... your dislike... not a general base...

Nemesis7884 · October 2019

and if you read the forum and try to at least somewhat optimizing you will end up running around like everyone other doing that - same skills, same build, same gear

so either you can be non functional or the same as everyone...zos basically managed to create the worst possible outcome with regards to builds, skills, gear variety...congratulations

Jhalin · October 2019

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

and if you read the forum and try to at least somewhat optimizing you will end up running around like everyone other doing that - same skills, same build, same gear

so either you can be non functional or the same as everyone...zos basically managed to create the worst possible outcome with regards to builds, skills, gear variety...congratulations

Not exactly true, you can actually hit 20k+ on a lot of builds, even the ones made to be thematic rather than numerically strong. With this patch it’s definitely harder mostly because of sustain nerfs, but for the most part you can clear a lot of content with that level of dps. And if it balances resources, health, and sustain, you could probably have a decent time solo’ing harder dungeons.

Rave the Histborn · October 2019

Vahrokh wrote: »

I've played the game and read my 5 guilds chats. 3 of them are for trading, 1 is a social PvE guild, one is "dedicated" PvE.

Well, for the first time I have seen "randoms" (those that the balance devs consider spending their happy time randomly killing dragons and stuff) complaining so much.
Usually, you see "activist" forum posters, PvPers, Youtubers and similar to complain about nerfs and similar.

Average Random Joes do not read the forums, do not read the ESO blog, do not watch videos. They just login, queue for some normal and vet keys and so on.
Well, for the first time even Random Joes are frustrated. Especially magicka players.
Now their class is just non functional any more. It's not enough to flip a couple of skills, re - re - re - re - re "adapt" the 1000th gear set and rotation.

This time basic gameplay blocks have just ceased to function. In my personal case I have used liquid lightning (or splash) since beta. It's even a more foundation class identiy skill than crystal fragments. And... voilà... it's gone. Fi-ni-shed. If you are so stupid to still use it, you are just a waste, you really want to place <generic faceless skill xyz> in its place.
But it's not just that. For the first time in 5 years I had to trash everything (including Maelstrom weapon) and grind a fire set. Because either you go all out NO AoE NO Dot fire spec, or you are just a piece of unmitigated garbage to your team. It's a 180° gameplay change enforced on you.

Sustain? Even worse. I completely hate fire specs, I adapted to heavy attack builds long ago. But now, even an heavy attack at every rotation is not enough any more!

This is not just "felt" by me. I actually run trials 80% of the time, so I am going to use potions, foods and have full healers support on that.

But this weighs heavily on those who do not run trials like me. The Random Jones. Until yesterday they could solo some stuff, now they ceased to.
2 rotations and they are out of magicka and die. Are people meant to buy tripots, golden food and maybe have an healbot follow them to just do random stuff outside of a trial?

The sustain nerf has been way too harsh.

"But you can slot regen enchants blah blah blah". Hell yeah! If only everybody had to. But no, classes that were already prevalent at top DPS, mainly stamina based, don't need any sacrifice. They parsed 100k 2 days ago and they'll parse top DPS tomorrow.
The others, who were behind to begin with (despite having to use melee Zaan set and sit at melee range to get healers buffs), now will be even more behind.

But this matters little to Random Joe.

What matters Random Joe is that now he gets kicked out of veteran dungeons (especially DLC) because now he just passed the thresold between "he's average but OK enough" and "no way, his DPS is way too low".

Actually, this whole post has been created because I precisely read on guild chat of a couple of guys experiencing exactly this.

Random Joe does not have the time or money to always get "no compromise" gold food, so he goes purple and his health (regen food) is too low now.

Meanwhile, the rich raider, goes all out golded, has full healers support everywhere and his DPS is still vastly enough to finish any kind of content (bar vSS timed run).

ZOS has landed low blows to a lot of people in the last 2 years, but this time they are hard hitting the majority, not just the "min-maxers-who-cry-at-losing-100-DPS".

It's like they have two teams:
content production developers, constantly working hard to deliver better and more gorgeous looking new regions, quests etc.

game balance developers, paid to discourage everyone, to remove fun (who finds fun to double heavy attack at each rotation?), remove class identity, remove flavour.

It's absurd.

X to doubt with no proof. Also "Random Jones. Until yesterday they could solo some stuff, now they ceased to.
2 rotations and they are out of magicka and die. Are people meant to buy tripots, golden food and maybe have an healbot follow them to just do random stuff outside of a trial?"

No, they're meant to have a certain level of competency in the game they bought. If you can't clear overland content I don't know what to tell you or how to help you. If you are running out of magicka after 2 rotations you need to reevaluate your game play. I'm not trying to be mean but at some point you have to learn to improve and not just assume that every armor set and weapon will stay exactly the same forever and never change.

khajiitNPC · October 2019

hahahahaha

Vahrokh · October 2019

LuxLunae wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

I've played the game and read my 5 guilds chats. 3 of them are for trading, 1 is a social PvE guild, one is "dedicated" PvE.

Well, for the first time I have seen "randoms" (those that the balance devs consider spending their happy time randomly killing dragons and stuff) complaining so much.
Usually, you see "activist" forum posters, PvPers, Youtubers and similar to complain about nerfs and similar.

Average Random Joes do not read the forums, do not read the ESO blog, do not watch videos. They just login, queue for some normal and vet keys and so on.
Well, for the first time even Random Joes are frustrated. Especially magicka players.
Now their class is just non functional any more. It's not enough to flip a couple of skills, re - re - re - re - re "adapt" the 1000th gear set and rotation.

This time basic gameplay blocks have just ceased to function. In my personal case I have used liquid lightning (or splash) since beta. It's even a more foundation class identiy skill than crystal fragments. And... voilà... it's gone. Fi-ni-shed. If you are so stupid to still use it, you are just a waste, you really want to place <generic faceless skill xyz> in its place.
But it's not just that. For the first time in 5 years I had to trash everything (including Maelstrom weapon) and grind a fire set. Because either you go all out NO AoE NO Dot fire spec, or you are just a piece of unmitigated garbage to your team. It's a 180° gameplay change enforced on you.

Sustain? Even worse. I completely hate fire specs, I adapted to heavy attack builds long ago. But now, even an heavy attack at every rotation is not enough any more!

This is not just "felt" by me. I actually run trials 80% of the time, so I am going to use potions, foods and have full healers support on that.

But this weighs heavily on those who do not run trials like me. The Random Jones. Until yesterday they could solo some stuff, now they ceased to.
2 rotations and they are out of magicka and die. Are people meant to buy tripots, golden food and maybe have an healbot follow them to just do random stuff outside of a trial?

The sustain nerf has been way too harsh.

"But you can slot regen enchants blah blah blah". Hell yeah! If only everybody had to. But no, classes that were already prevalent at top DPS, mainly stamina based, don't need any sacrifice. They parsed 100k 2 days ago and they'll parse top DPS tomorrow.
The others, who were behind to begin with (despite having to use melee Zaan set and sit at melee range to get healers buffs), now will be even more behind.

But this matters little to Random Joe.

What matters Random Joe is that now he gets kicked out of veteran dungeons (especially DLC) because now he just passed the thresold between "he's average but OK enough" and "no way, his DPS is way too low".

Actually, this whole post has been created because I precisely read on guild chat of a couple of guys experiencing exactly this.

Random Joe does not have the time or money to always get "no compromise" gold food, so he goes purple and his health (regen food) is too low now.

Meanwhile, the rich raider, goes all out golded, has full healers support everywhere and his DPS is still vastly enough to finish any kind of content (bar vSS timed run).

ZOS has landed low blows to a lot of people in the last 2 years, but this time they are hard hitting the majority, not just the "min-maxers-who-cry-at-losing-100-DPS".

It's like they have two teams:
content production developers, constantly working hard to deliver better and more gorgeous looking new regions, quests etc.

game balance developers, paid to discourage everyone, to remove fun (who finds fun to double heavy attack at each rotation?), remove class identity, remove flavour.

It's absurd.

screens or it didn't happen...it all is a product or your mind...random casual players... random joe...

The fact you call em random joes.. make me think this is a product of your mind... your dislike... not a general base...

Of course, I am meant to somehow screen capture my guilds chats for hours a day every day, so that I can prove a random internet guy that what my guildies have written is true

Vahrokh · October 2019

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

I've played the game and read my 5 guilds chats. 3 of them are for trading, 1 is a social PvE guild, one is "dedicated" PvE.

Well, for the first time I have seen "randoms" (those that the balance devs consider spending their happy time randomly killing dragons and stuff) complaining so much.
Usually, you see "activist" forum posters, PvPers, Youtubers and similar to complain about nerfs and similar.

Average Random Joes do not read the forums, do not read the ESO blog, do not watch videos. They just login, queue for some normal and vet keys and so on.
Well, for the first time even Random Joes are frustrated. Especially magicka players.
Now their class is just non functional any more. It's not enough to flip a couple of skills, re - re - re - re - re "adapt" the 1000th gear set and rotation.

This time basic gameplay blocks have just ceased to function. In my personal case I have used liquid lightning (or splash) since beta. It's even a more foundation class identiy skill than crystal fragments. And... voilà... it's gone. Fi-ni-shed. If you are so stupid to still use it, you are just a waste, you really want to place <generic faceless skill xyz> in its place.
But it's not just that. For the first time in 5 years I had to trash everything (including Maelstrom weapon) and grind a fire set. Because either you go all out NO AoE NO Dot fire spec, or you are just a piece of unmitigated garbage to your team. It's a 180° gameplay change enforced on you.

Sustain? Even worse. I completely hate fire specs, I adapted to heavy attack builds long ago. But now, even an heavy attack at every rotation is not enough any more!

This is not just "felt" by me. I actually run trials 80% of the time, so I am going to use potions, foods and have full healers support on that.

But this weighs heavily on those who do not run trials like me. The Random Jones. Until yesterday they could solo some stuff, now they ceased to.
2 rotations and they are out of magicka and die. Are people meant to buy tripots, golden food and maybe have an healbot follow them to just do random stuff outside of a trial?

The sustain nerf has been way too harsh.

"But you can slot regen enchants blah blah blah". Hell yeah! If only everybody had to. But no, classes that were already prevalent at top DPS, mainly stamina based, don't need any sacrifice. They parsed 100k 2 days ago and they'll parse top DPS tomorrow.
The others, who were behind to begin with (despite having to use melee Zaan set and sit at melee range to get healers buffs), now will be even more behind.

But this matters little to Random Joe.

What matters Random Joe is that now he gets kicked out of veteran dungeons (especially DLC) because now he just passed the thresold between "he's average but OK enough" and "no way, his DPS is way too low".

Actually, this whole post has been created because I precisely read on guild chat of a couple of guys experiencing exactly this.

Random Joe does not have the time or money to always get "no compromise" gold food, so he goes purple and his health (regen food) is too low now.

Meanwhile, the rich raider, goes all out golded, has full healers support everywhere and his DPS is still vastly enough to finish any kind of content (bar vSS timed run).

ZOS has landed low blows to a lot of people in the last 2 years, but this time they are hard hitting the majority, not just the "min-maxers-who-cry-at-losing-100-DPS".

It's like they have two teams:
content production developers, constantly working hard to deliver better and more gorgeous looking new regions, quests etc.

game balance developers, paid to discourage everyone, to remove fun (who finds fun to double heavy attack at each rotation?), remove class identity, remove flavour.

It's absurd.

X to doubt with no proof. Also "Random Jones. Until yesterday they could solo some stuff, now they ceased to.
2 rotations and they are out of magicka and die. Are people meant to buy tripots, golden food and maybe have an healbot follow them to just do random stuff outside of a trial?"

No, they're meant to have a certain level of competency in the game they bought. If you can't clear overland content I don't know what to tell you or how to help you. If you are running out of magicka after 2 rotations you need to reevaluate your game play. I'm not trying to be mean but at some point you have to learn to improve and not just assume that every armor set and weapon will stay exactly the same forever and never change.

I have in my signature and on this very forum, here proof that I can solo whatever outdoor content, in fact I post guides about how to do it.

This, however, has nothing to do with people who maybe played ESO for 2 years with their little circle of friends and now are left in the cold because of this bipolar, constant rebalance going on.

Gnome_Saiyan · October 2019

Vahrokh wrote: »

Of course, I am meant to somehow screen capture my guilds chats for hours a day every day, so that I can prove a random internet guy that what my guildies have written is true

But you said you "investigated" it. You hinged this entire thread on the weighty, sexy word "investigated." Doesn't investigation involve gathering evidence? Most of your investigation consisted of your eyewitness account. Fine. Great. What were the names of the (your words) "couple of guys?" What were their exact words? What were the circumstances of their dissatisfaction? These are basic investigative questions.

BlueRaven · October 2019

Vahrokh wrote: »

I've played the game and read my 5 guilds chats. 3 of them are for trading, 1 is a social PvE guild, one is "dedicated" PvE.

Well, for the first time I have seen "randoms" (those that the balance devs consider spending their happy time randomly killing dragons and stuff) complaining so much.
Usually, you see "activist" forum posters, PvPers, Youtubers and similar to complain about nerfs and similar.

Average Random Joes do not read the forums, do not read the ESO blog, do not watch videos. They just login, queue for some normal and vet keys and so on.
Well, for the first time even Random Joes are frustrated. Especially magicka players.
Now their class is just non functional any more. It's not enough to flip a couple of skills, re - re - re - re - re "adapt" the 1000th gear set and rotation.

This time basic gameplay blocks have just ceased to function. In my personal case I have used liquid lightning (or splash) since beta. It's even a more foundation class identiy skill than crystal fragments. And... voilà... it's gone. Fi-ni-shed. If you are so stupid to still use it, you are just a waste, you really want to place <generic faceless skill xyz> in its place.
But it's not just that. For the first time in 5 years I had to trash everything (including Maelstrom weapon) and grind a fire set. Because either you go all out NO AoE NO Dot fire spec, or you are just a piece of unmitigated garbage to your team. It's a 180° gameplay change enforced on you.

Sustain? Even worse. I completely hate fire specs, I adapted to heavy attack builds long ago. But now, even an heavy attack at every rotation is not enough any more!

This is not just "felt" by me. I actually run trials 80% of the time, so I am going to use potions, foods and have full healers support on that.

But this weighs heavily on those who do not run trials like me. The Random Jones. Until yesterday they could solo some stuff, now they ceased to.
2 rotations and they are out of magicka and die. Are people meant to buy tripots, golden food and maybe have an healbot follow them to just do random stuff outside of a trial?

The sustain nerf has been way too harsh.

"But you can slot regen enchants blah blah blah". Hell yeah! If only everybody had to. But no, classes that were already prevalent at top DPS, mainly stamina based, don't need any sacrifice. They parsed 100k 2 days ago and they'll parse top DPS tomorrow.
The others, who were behind to begin with (despite having to use melee Zaan set and sit at melee range to get healers buffs), now will be even more behind.

But this matters little to Random Joe.

What matters Random Joe is that now he gets kicked out of veteran dungeons (especially DLC) because now he just passed the thresold between "he's average but OK enough" and "no way, his DPS is way too low".

Actually, this whole post has been created because I precisely read on guild chat of a couple of guys experiencing exactly this.

Random Joe does not have the time or money to always get "no compromise" gold food, so he goes purple and his health (regen food) is too low now.

Meanwhile, the rich raider, goes all out golded, has full healers support everywhere and his DPS is still vastly enough to finish any kind of content (bar vSS timed run).

ZOS has landed low blows to a lot of people in the last 2 years, but this time they are hard hitting the majority, not just the "min-maxers-who-cry-at-losing-100-DPS".

It's like they have two teams:
content production developers, constantly working hard to deliver better and more gorgeous looking new regions, quests etc.

game balance developers, paid to discourage everyone, to remove fun (who finds fun to double heavy attack at each rotation?), remove class identity, remove flavour.

It's absurd.

I am experiencing this as well. On Mondays we run a WB group and that was the constant refrain. And I don't know what is worse, that they did this nerfs so mindlessly, or tat they apparently don't care how it effects their player base.

So now we will have less people queueing for dungeons so expect that timer to go up as well. Great job Zos.

And if the combat team was just average, just "meh", I would still be a booster for this game. But the combat team is so awful it's just shocking.

Raideen · October 2019

LuxLunae wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

I've played the game and read my 5 guilds chats. 3 of them are for trading, 1 is a social PvE guild, one is "dedicated" PvE.

Well, for the first time I have seen "randoms" (those that the balance devs consider spending their happy time randomly killing dragons and stuff) complaining so much.
Usually, you see "activist" forum posters, PvPers, Youtubers and similar to complain about nerfs and similar.

Average Random Joes do not read the forums, do not read the ESO blog, do not watch videos. They just login, queue for some normal and vet keys and so on.
Well, for the first time even Random Joes are frustrated. Especially magicka players.
Now their class is just non functional any more. It's not enough to flip a couple of skills, re - re - re - re - re "adapt" the 1000th gear set and rotation.

This time basic gameplay blocks have just ceased to function. In my personal case I have used liquid lightning (or splash) since beta. It's even a more foundation class identiy skill than crystal fragments. And... voilà... it's gone. Fi-ni-shed. If you are so stupid to still use it, you are just a waste, you really want to place <generic faceless skill xyz> in its place.
But it's not just that. For the first time in 5 years I had to trash everything (including Maelstrom weapon) and grind a fire set. Because either you go all out NO AoE NO Dot fire spec, or you are just a piece of unmitigated garbage to your team. It's a 180° gameplay change enforced on you.

Sustain? Even worse. I completely hate fire specs, I adapted to heavy attack builds long ago. But now, even an heavy attack at every rotation is not enough any more!

This is not just "felt" by me. I actually run trials 80% of the time, so I am going to use potions, foods and have full healers support on that.

But this weighs heavily on those who do not run trials like me. The Random Jones. Until yesterday they could solo some stuff, now they ceased to.
2 rotations and they are out of magicka and die. Are people meant to buy tripots, golden food and maybe have an healbot follow them to just do random stuff outside of a trial?

The sustain nerf has been way too harsh.

"But you can slot regen enchants blah blah blah". Hell yeah! If only everybody had to. But no, classes that were already prevalent at top DPS, mainly stamina based, don't need any sacrifice. They parsed 100k 2 days ago and they'll parse top DPS tomorrow.
The others, who were behind to begin with (despite having to use melee Zaan set and sit at melee range to get healers buffs), now will be even more behind.

But this matters little to Random Joe.

What matters Random Joe is that now he gets kicked out of veteran dungeons (especially DLC) because now he just passed the thresold between "he's average but OK enough" and "no way, his DPS is way too low".

Actually, this whole post has been created because I precisely read on guild chat of a couple of guys experiencing exactly this.

Random Joe does not have the time or money to always get "no compromise" gold food, so he goes purple and his health (regen food) is too low now.

Meanwhile, the rich raider, goes all out golded, has full healers support everywhere and his DPS is still vastly enough to finish any kind of content (bar vSS timed run).

ZOS has landed low blows to a lot of people in the last 2 years, but this time they are hard hitting the majority, not just the "min-maxers-who-cry-at-losing-100-DPS".

It's like they have two teams:
content production developers, constantly working hard to deliver better and more gorgeous looking new regions, quests etc.

game balance developers, paid to discourage everyone, to remove fun (who finds fun to double heavy attack at each rotation?), remove class identity, remove flavour.

It's absurd.

screens or it didn't happen...it all is a product or your mind...random casual players... random joe...

The fact you call em random joes.. make me think this is a product of your mind... your dislike... not a general base...

Except they are right and you are....not.

StormeReigns · October 2019

Maltese Falcon, this thread is not.

kathandira · October 2019

Vahrokh wrote: »

I've played the game and read my 5 guilds chats. 3 of them are for trading, 1 is a social PvE guild, one is "dedicated" PvE.

Well, for the first time I have seen "randoms" (those that the balance devs consider spending their happy time randomly killing dragons and stuff) complaining so much.
Usually, you see "activist" forum posters, PvPers, Youtubers and similar to complain about nerfs and similar.

Average Random Joes do not read the forums, do not read the ESO blog, do not watch videos. They just login, queue for some normal and vet keys and so on.
Well, for the first time even Random Joes are frustrated. Especially magicka players.
Now their class is just non functional any more. It's not enough to flip a couple of skills, re - re - re - re - re "adapt" the 1000th gear set and rotation.

This time basic gameplay blocks have just ceased to function. In my personal case I have used liquid lightning (or splash) since beta. It's even a more foundation class identiy skill than crystal fragments. And... voilà... it's gone. Fi-ni-shed. If you are so stupid to still use it, you are just a waste, you really want to place <generic faceless skill xyz> in its place.
But it's not just that. For the first time in 5 years I had to trash everything (including Maelstrom weapon) and grind a fire set. Because either you go all out NO AoE NO Dot fire spec, or you are just a piece of unmitigated garbage to your team. It's a 180° gameplay change enforced on you.

Sustain? Even worse. I completely hate fire specs, I adapted to heavy attack builds long ago. But now, even an heavy attack at every rotation is not enough any more!

This is not just "felt" by me. I actually run trials 80% of the time, so I am going to use potions, foods and have full healers support on that.

But this weighs heavily on those who do not run trials like me. The Random Jones. Until yesterday they could solo some stuff, now they ceased to.
2 rotations and they are out of magicka and die. Are people meant to buy tripots, golden food and maybe have an healbot follow them to just do random stuff outside of a trial?

The sustain nerf has been way too harsh.

"But you can slot regen enchants blah blah blah". Hell yeah! If only everybody had to. But no, classes that were already prevalent at top DPS, mainly stamina based, don't need any sacrifice. They parsed 100k 2 days ago and they'll parse top DPS tomorrow.
The others, who were behind to begin with (despite having to use melee Zaan set and sit at melee range to get healers buffs), now will be even more behind.

But this matters little to Random Joe.

What matters Random Joe is that now he gets kicked out of veteran dungeons (especially DLC) because now he just passed the thresold between "he's average but OK enough" and "no way, his DPS is way too low".

Actually, this whole post has been created because I precisely read on guild chat of a couple of guys experiencing exactly this.

Random Joe does not have the time or money to always get "no compromise" gold food, so he goes purple and his health (regen food) is too low now.

Meanwhile, the rich raider, goes all out golded, has full healers support everywhere and his DPS is still vastly enough to finish any kind of content (bar vSS timed run).

ZOS has landed low blows to a lot of people in the last 2 years, but this time they are hard hitting the majority, not just the "min-maxers-who-cry-at-losing-100-DPS".

It's like they have two teams:
content production developers, constantly working hard to deliver better and more gorgeous looking new regions, quests etc.

game balance developers, paid to discourage everyone, to remove fun (who finds fun to double heavy attack at each rotation?), remove class identity, remove flavour.

It's absurd.

In regards to food. Blue dual stat food is amazing.

Vahrokh · October 2019

Gnome_Saiyan wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

Of course, I am meant to somehow screen capture my guilds chats for hours a day every day, so that I can prove a random internet guy that what my guildies have written is true

But you said you "investigated" it. You hinged this entire thread on the weighty, sexy word "investigated." Doesn't investigation involve gathering evidence? Most of your investigation consisted of your eyewitness account. Fine. Great. What were the names of the (your words) "couple of guys?" What were their exact words? What were the circumstances of their dissatisfaction? These are basic investigative questions.

I have some chats going in trial ATM, when I am done I may post some

Vahrokh · October 2019

kathandira wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

I've played the game and read my 5 guilds chats. 3 of them are for trading, 1 is a social PvE guild, one is "dedicated" PvE.

Well, for the first time I have seen "randoms" (those that the balance devs consider spending their happy time randomly killing dragons and stuff) complaining so much.
Usually, you see "activist" forum posters, PvPers, Youtubers and similar to complain about nerfs and similar.

Average Random Joes do not read the forums, do not read the ESO blog, do not watch videos. They just login, queue for some normal and vet keys and so on.
Well, for the first time even Random Joes are frustrated. Especially magicka players.
Now their class is just non functional any more. It's not enough to flip a couple of skills, re - re - re - re - re "adapt" the 1000th gear set and rotation.

This time basic gameplay blocks have just ceased to function. In my personal case I have used liquid lightning (or splash) since beta. It's even a more foundation class identiy skill than crystal fragments. And... voilà... it's gone. Fi-ni-shed. If you are so stupid to still use it, you are just a waste, you really want to place <generic faceless skill xyz> in its place.
But it's not just that. For the first time in 5 years I had to trash everything (including Maelstrom weapon) and grind a fire set. Because either you go all out NO AoE NO Dot fire spec, or you are just a piece of unmitigated garbage to your team. It's a 180° gameplay change enforced on you.

Sustain? Even worse. I completely hate fire specs, I adapted to heavy attack builds long ago. But now, even an heavy attack at every rotation is not enough any more!

This is not just "felt" by me. I actually run trials 80% of the time, so I am going to use potions, foods and have full healers support on that.

But this weighs heavily on those who do not run trials like me. The Random Jones. Until yesterday they could solo some stuff, now they ceased to.
2 rotations and they are out of magicka and die. Are people meant to buy tripots, golden food and maybe have an healbot follow them to just do random stuff outside of a trial?

The sustain nerf has been way too harsh.

"But you can slot regen enchants blah blah blah". Hell yeah! If only everybody had to. But no, classes that were already prevalent at top DPS, mainly stamina based, don't need any sacrifice. They parsed 100k 2 days ago and they'll parse top DPS tomorrow.
The others, who were behind to begin with (despite having to use melee Zaan set and sit at melee range to get healers buffs), now will be even more behind.

But this matters little to Random Joe.

What matters Random Joe is that now he gets kicked out of veteran dungeons (especially DLC) because now he just passed the thresold between "he's average but OK enough" and "no way, his DPS is way too low".

Actually, this whole post has been created because I precisely read on guild chat of a couple of guys experiencing exactly this.

Random Joe does not have the time or money to always get "no compromise" gold food, so he goes purple and his health (regen food) is too low now.

Meanwhile, the rich raider, goes all out golded, has full healers support everywhere and his DPS is still vastly enough to finish any kind of content (bar vSS timed run).

ZOS has landed low blows to a lot of people in the last 2 years, but this time they are hard hitting the majority, not just the "min-maxers-who-cry-at-losing-100-DPS".

It's like they have two teams:
content production developers, constantly working hard to deliver better and more gorgeous looking new regions, quests etc.

game balance developers, paid to discourage everyone, to remove fun (who finds fun to double heavy attack at each rotation?), remove class identity, remove flavour.

It's absurd.

In regards to food. Blue dual stat food is amazing.

Well I cannot say I have issues because I am using it myself. But this thread is not about *me*, I am in the 1% "elite". I have my healers feeding me regen and so on. I just posted stuff related to what I am reading in my various guilds since yesterday.

Araneae6537 · October 2019

Idk, I’m a relatively casual newb (playing since July, CP ~270, one magicka and one stamina at level 50) and I have yet to encounter problems. I did some quests, soloed a dolmen, did a random normal on each of my level 50’s, and the only changes I noticed were 1) draining shot no longer knocks back but I can reposition myself easily enough and 2) my magicka healer can keep up with the group and not be out of breath!

I thought either all these the-sky-is-falling threads must be specific to certain classes or PvP or only noticeable by elite players in more difficult content.

In GW2 there have been nerfs and class changes that you notice and trip over even in open world (and there are just as many threads there about content being too easy as there are here).

Idk what the big deal is; I’m still having a blast.

Kittytravel · October 2019

So just... look up a new build? The average joe doesn't craft their own build either they got it from Alcast, Woeler, or any of the other 10 well known build makers. So they will do that exact same thing and then go back to playing as normal. It's what they did before so I don't exactly understand the difference now?

You say they don't have time to "invest" in the rebalance changes but they didn't even invest time previously. They literally googled "DK Mag PvE Build ESO" and then copy pasted. If they are complaining because they just haven't respecced to their google search.

Now if you want to talk about the average-joe that DID make their own build to fit their playstyle then yeah I've heard them complaining too; but man it's a lot less than how you paint it because there aren't many of those out there that can dedicate that kind of time to theory-crafting a personalized build to fit their playstyle while also remaining a "casual". I've got a person in my PvE Social guild that does a dual-resource pool build and she has to pretty much spend the next week figuring out how to reblance that and seeing if she can get back up to the 25k dps mark so that her build isn't completely dead.

I'm not advocating for the current patch, I really hope they figure out this "class identity" stuff relatively quickly but I'm not going to pretend that 70% of the playerbase even is aware of the changes and impacts and didn't just google "Dragonhold Insert Class Here Build" like they have for Murkmire, Summerset, and every major patch before.

Arjuna1696 · October 2019

Vahrokh wrote: »

game balance developers, paid to discourage everyone, to remove fun (who finds fun to double heavy attack at each rotation?), remove class identity, remove flavour.

This kind of junk is so overdramatic and false. Every game has people who go around saying "The devs hate players, want people to leave, etc. etc."

To be sure, I have my own qualms with recent changes but this kind of talk makes a farce of any productive discussion.

mayasunrising · October 2019

I've played a sorc as my main for pretty much the past 3 years. I guess I really don't see what's so awful? Through each of the past class changes I've still been able to melt the faces off mobs using essentially the same skills and attacks; Lay down blockade of storms for off balance, lightning flood, and heavy attacks while keeping up surge and boundless storm, and throwing frags whenever they proc. I think the only major changes I've made in the past year or so is switching out armor sets for newer more effective ones, focusing more on increasing max magicka (rather than fixation on purely spell damage), and tweaking champ points.

In pvpland (breaks not withstanding; I'm about 70% PvP/30% PvE) it's been the same. I've made minor adjustments to take advantage of class skill changes, but as a whole I'd say I feel I've just been doing what I do. I haven't really felt much impact at all, and what I have I feel it's been for the better. It's more I've become a smarter pvp'er over time. That has little to do with changes to in game skills.

I dunno, opinions vary of course. I personally like the changes and like the direction ZOS is moving with them. I also don't see people mass quitting, based off what I'm seeing in game it seem like more people are joining. Of course, [sarcastic tone] when Camelot Unchained is (finally) released I'm sure there will be a mass exodus and it will be teh deth of ESOs. [/sarcastic tone] #eyeroll #vaporware #abazillionFPSyeahsure

Rave the Histborn · October 2019

Vahrokh wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Vahrokh wrote: »

I've played the game and read my 5 guilds chats. 3 of them are for trading, 1 is a social PvE guild, one is "dedicated" PvE.

Well, for the first time I have seen "randoms" (those that the balance devs consider spending their happy time randomly killing dragons and stuff) complaining so much.
Usually, you see "activist" forum posters, PvPers, Youtubers and similar to complain about nerfs and similar.

Average Random Joes do not read the forums, do not read the ESO blog, do not watch videos. They just login, queue for some normal and vet keys and so on.
Well, for the first time even Random Joes are frustrated. Especially magicka players.
Now their class is just non functional any more. It's not enough to flip a couple of skills, re - re - re - re - re "adapt" the 1000th gear set and rotation.

This time basic gameplay blocks have just ceased to function. In my personal case I have used liquid lightning (or splash) since beta. It's even a more foundation class identiy skill than crystal fragments. And... voilà... it's gone. Fi-ni-shed. If you are so stupid to still use it, you are just a waste, you really want to place <generic faceless skill xyz> in its place.
But it's not just that. For the first time in 5 years I had to trash everything (including Maelstrom weapon) and grind a fire set. Because either you go all out NO AoE NO Dot fire spec, or you are just a piece of unmitigated garbage to your team. It's a 180° gameplay change enforced on you.

Sustain? Even worse. I completely hate fire specs, I adapted to heavy attack builds long ago. But now, even an heavy attack at every rotation is not enough any more!

This is not just "felt" by me. I actually run trials 80% of the time, so I am going to use potions, foods and have full healers support on that.

But this weighs heavily on those who do not run trials like me. The Random Jones. Until yesterday they could solo some stuff, now they ceased to.
2 rotations and they are out of magicka and die. Are people meant to buy tripots, golden food and maybe have an healbot follow them to just do random stuff outside of a trial?

The sustain nerf has been way too harsh.

"But you can slot regen enchants blah blah blah". Hell yeah! If only everybody had to. But no, classes that were already prevalent at top DPS, mainly stamina based, don't need any sacrifice. They parsed 100k 2 days ago and they'll parse top DPS tomorrow.
The others, who were behind to begin with (despite having to use melee Zaan set and sit at melee range to get healers buffs), now will be even more behind.

But this matters little to Random Joe.

What matters Random Joe is that now he gets kicked out of veteran dungeons (especially DLC) because now he just passed the thresold between "he's average but OK enough" and "no way, his DPS is way too low".

Actually, this whole post has been created because I precisely read on guild chat of a couple of guys experiencing exactly this.

Random Joe does not have the time or money to always get "no compromise" gold food, so he goes purple and his health (regen food) is too low now.

Meanwhile, the rich raider, goes all out golded, has full healers support everywhere and his DPS is still vastly enough to finish any kind of content (bar vSS timed run).

ZOS has landed low blows to a lot of people in the last 2 years, but this time they are hard hitting the majority, not just the "min-maxers-who-cry-at-losing-100-DPS".

It's like they have two teams:
content production developers, constantly working hard to deliver better and more gorgeous looking new regions, quests etc.

game balance developers, paid to discourage everyone, to remove fun (who finds fun to double heavy attack at each rotation?), remove class identity, remove flavour.

It's absurd.

X to doubt with no proof. Also "Random Jones. Until yesterday they could solo some stuff, now they ceased to.
2 rotations and they are out of magicka and die. Are people meant to buy tripots, golden food and maybe have an healbot follow them to just do random stuff outside of a trial?"

No, they're meant to have a certain level of competency in the game they bought. If you can't clear overland content I don't know what to tell you or how to help you. If you are running out of magicka after 2 rotations you need to reevaluate your game play. I'm not trying to be mean but at some point you have to learn to improve and not just assume that every armor set and weapon will stay exactly the same forever and never change.

I have in my signature and on this very forum, here proof that I can solo whatever outdoor content, in fact I post guides about how to do it.

This, however, has nothing to do with people who maybe played ESO for 2 years with their little circle of friends and now are left in the cold because of this bipolar, constant rebalance going on.

Well if you're not talking about the mid level lvl people who are you talking about? If you're talking about completely new players I hate to break it to you but they have been less affected then those 2 year players have.

Look unless you have screens and actual proof it's not worth making this post. I have 5 guilds: 2 trading, 1 pve/social, and 2 pvp all of who are loving the new patch. They think it's the best yet and are actually telling people to get the game. I dont have screenshots though and even if I did you're a random internet person who I dont have to prove anything to.

Vahrokh · October 2019

Kittytravel wrote: »

I'm not advocating for the current patch, I really hope they figure out this "class identity" stuff relatively quickly but I'm not going to pretend that 70% of the playerbase even is aware of the changes and impacts and didn't just google "Dragonhold Insert Class Here Build" like they have for Murkmire, Summerset, and every major patch before.

Usually it's like that, but this time you cannot "not be aware". You just stop being able to do basic stuff you were accustomed to for a long time.

mayasunrising · October 2019

Jhalin wrote: »

Nemesis7884 wrote: »

and if you read the forum and try to at least somewhat optimizing you will end up running around like everyone other doing that - same skills, same build, same gear

so either you can be non functional or the same as everyone...zos basically managed to create the worst possible outcome with regards to builds, skills, gear variety...congratulations

Not exactly true, you can actually hit 20k+ on a lot of builds, even the ones made to be thematic rather than numerically strong. With this patch it’s definitely harder mostly because of sustain nerfs, but for the most part you can clear a lot of content with that level of dps. And if it balances resources, health, and sustain, you could probably have a decent time solo’ing harder dungeons.

I agree but would also say that sustain wise I don't see to be experiencing any issues. As a matter of fact until I read the bit about sustain nerfs I didn't even know they did any. I guess because heavy attacks are just part of my rotation? I rarely run out of magicka and if I do it's usually because I'll respec as a healer to help friends in dungeons. So, that's more a matter of me just butchering my skillset temporarily but being too lazy to rework champ points. :P

LadyNalcarya · October 2019

Vahrokh wrote: »

Kittytravel wrote: »

I'm not advocating for the current patch, I really hope they figure out this "class identity" stuff relatively quickly but I'm not going to pretend that 70% of the playerbase even is aware of the changes and impacts and didn't just google "Dragonhold Insert Class Here Build" like they have for Murkmire, Summerset, and every major patch before.

Usually it's like that, but this time you cannot "not be aware". You just stop being able to do basic stuff you were accustomed to for a long time.

Exactly! And no one likes when their stuff is taken away from them.
It's ok to introduce new, more difficult goals, but the situation when someone goes from being able to clear vet dlc to not having enough sustain/dps is unacceptable.
And we all know that average dd in this game can not pull 100k, not even close.

Minyassa · October 2019

Can confirm. By necessity, I've had a very casual approach to play though I do like to do the occasional non-vet trial or vet hardmode dungeon and guess what, now I can't do those two things at all competently anymore. Physical disability compounds this, but before this patch I was able to hold my own without utterly destroying myself physically and now that is off the table unless I get a crapton of grindy carries to get BiS gear just to try to close the gap a little, and who the hell that's a casual player has the time for that? This is a hard gate for me, I literally cannot do anything more to my body to get it to perform better, which is what I would need to do in order to do things to my toon to get it to perform better.

MasterSpatula · October 2019

To respond more to the title than to the actual body of the post:

Have you guys done any dragons in the Dragonhold updated now? Everything about them that made them a PITA time-suck that's a nightmare to get done at any time other than peak hours because no one wants to do them got cranked to 11! They're going to be completely undoable when the next Chapter drops because you won't even be able to find a group willing to put up with them anymore.

As for the body of the post, this is all pretty much as expected from the patch notes. Liquid Lighting needed a buff as of last update, but they decided to further nerf it. If they've really gone and made Fire Staff necessary for MagSorc (you know, like it was at launch, which is to say "inexcusably bad design"), there really may be nothing left for me gameplay wise. I'm still interested in the story elements, but if I can't be an effective Lightning Mage, screw it. It's not worth it.

Canned_Apples · October 2019

Regardless of how you felt about the broken dot meta, I think everyone can agree that these constant changes to sustain and damage are not good for the community as a whole.
They ( @ZOS_BrianWheeler @ZOS_Gilliam ) should actually listen to those playing on the pts, instead of ignoring their player base until the masses have complained and the player base has dwindled.
...and if they want a larger sample, then should provide incentives for people to play and give feedback on the pts.

Updating underutilized or over-performing skill is fine, but these insane sweeping changes are not.

Lavellan · October 2019

Agreed. Those who had 100k DPS before, will still achieve it, it won't hurt them for a second.
Those who played the game for fun, to enjoy questing and occasional dungeons, won't have so much fun anymore.
It's just unreasonable. I usually don't mind nerfs, but this time it just went too far to the point where the game gets less and less enjoyable, but more and more grindy.
Exactly like someone said before - if you want to balance things out, make more harder content. Making the existing content harder, for no apparent reason, is just the lazy way to do it. And perfect recipe to lose players.
Especially on top of all the server issues that are just ridiculously bad at this point.