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Do something with the justice system.
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starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »Can we stop arguing about some non-existent pvp system and maybe put forth suggestions to improve the justice system as is?
@darthgummibear_ESO, with respect, this is a relevant factor. The entire reason the guards are unkillible is because they were originally intended to be part of a larger system. So, I brought that up as historical context for anyone who wanted it, and here we are.0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »The PVP addition to the Justice System got nixed because ZOS didnt want it exploited...
But also because the vast majority of PVEers would prefer not to have sudden PVP in the middle of their PVE. And the TG/DB activites are super easy for PVP players to stalk TG/DB players. Just sit on the Anvil docks and watch the murders, or sit on the wayshrine near the Sanctuary and wait for someone to port in with a bounty. Or spot someone stealing and stalk them until they screw up.
Personally, I'm a PVPer, and even I prefer to not have sudden PVP in the middle of my PVE activities in otherwise PVE zones.
I would like it if ZOS made some of the base game guards have those stealth suppression circles. That added a fun element of timing and prevented some of the egregious ability to stack stealth bonuses from gear to evade guards.
The problem with the proposed system was always that outlaws flagged themselves, potentially by accident.
If you had skill lines for Outlaw and Enforcer, and then had to commit a skill point to them to unlock PvP for that faction, that would a long way towards gating the system from accidentally getting murdered by another player because you accidentally hoovered up something by the writ turning.
I'm less worried about accidentally getting hit by an Enforcer for a minor bounty, and more concerned by how easy it is to find and stalk players who are doing Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood content, and just wait for them to make a mistake and *gank*.
If players could do all current justice system content without needing the Outlaw skill line at all, i.e. it was separate and not a requirement for stealing, TG, or DB content, then I'd be more okay with it.
True. The original idea was rife with means to grief players. The only way I have seen a system where PvP could occur in a PvE world and people could "opt out" was where the PvP people were placed into a difference instance from PvE making it impossible to even attempt to attack a player not flagged for PvP.
Zos has steered away from that since just before the game launched because they found it to challenging to devise a workable system. Their original idea was to permit players to flag themselves for RP (and probably other things) and the game would try to put them into the same instance with like minded people.
Personal preference? I'd much rather have a system with a hard-opt in, rather than an opt out system. I think I mentioned that earlier in the thread. The idea that Enforcers and Outlaws had their own skill lines, which you had to unlock from interacting with specific NPCs, conflicted with each other, and only once you had the skill line, and invested in the first passive, were you flagged for PvP.
At that point, it's almost impossible for a newbie, just struggling to get by, to accidentally flag themselves for PvP in the system, and the griefing options go down dramatically.0 -
TheShadowScout✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Actually... that is the reason the guards are so -evadable-. Because the PvP part of the justice system was supposed to pick up the slack... but... that idea of course had its own issues and exploitationisms, and thus was decided against.starkerealm wrote: »darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »Can we stop arguing about some non-existent pvp system and maybe put forth suggestions to improve the justice system as is?
@darthgummibear_ESO, with respect, this is a relevant factor. The entire reason the guards are unkillible is because they were originally intended to be part of a larger system. So, I brought that up as historical context for anyone who wanted it, and here we are.
Which brings us to thinking about what else would be needed to make justice great again and so on...
The unkillability of the guards... well, we all know that is more an issue of people being... people. And that some guys totally would band together and wipe out whole towns if the guards could be killed. Tho I still think it would have been more immersive if the guards were not invulvnerable, but instead just fired of an "arrest everyone" spell at 50% HP...
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darthgummibear_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭starkerealm wrote: »darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »Can we stop arguing about some non-existent pvp system and maybe put forth suggestions to improve the justice system as is?
@darthgummibear_ESO, with respect, this is a relevant factor. The entire reason the guards are unkillible is because they were originally intended to be part of a larger system. So, I brought that up as historical context for anyone who wanted it, and here we are.
I never mentioned guards being unkillable. Literally all I want is more to the system than just avoiding the guards. Anything else came from someone else.0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »Can we stop arguing about some non-existent pvp system and maybe put forth suggestions to improve the justice system as is?
@darthgummibear_ESO, with respect, this is a relevant factor. The entire reason the guards are unkillible is because they were originally intended to be part of a larger system. So, I brought that up as historical context for anyone who wanted it, and here we are.
I never mentioned guards being unkillable. Literally all I want is more to the system than just avoiding the guards. Anything else came from someone else.
Yeah, sorry, I went back and double checked. It was the whole bounty hunter thing. I probably brought up the unkillable guards to begin with.
It is a solution to make the system more in-depth. It's also how the system was originally planned, and even though it has issues, it does dovetail into the version we have in game.0 -
TelvanniWizard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭They could add a zone only for justice pvp. It could have a huge city (full of enterable and lootable homes, alleys, dark passages, roof areas with verticality, better than A. Landing), and forts and smuggler caves in the wild, treasures, and all that.0 -
Watchdog✭✭✭✭✭
✭TelvanniWizard wrote: »They could add a zone only for justice pvp. It could have a huge city (full of enterable and lootable homes, alleys, dark passages, roof areas with verticality, better than A. Landing), and forts and smuggler caves in the wild, treasures, and all that.
Much fun for the Enforces, much less fun for the Criminals, as important spots will be camped by the Enforcers permanently.
Sooner or later, there would only be bored Enforcers with nothing to do left.Edited by Watchdog on October 20, 2019 11:13AMMember of Alith Legion: https://www.alithlegion.com3 -
TelvanniWizard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭TelvanniWizard wrote: »They could add a zone only for justice pvp. It could have a huge city (full of enterable and lootable homes, alleys, dark passages, roof areas with verticality, better than A. Landing), and forts and smuggler caves in the wild, treasures, and all that.
Much fun for the Enforces, much less fun the Criminals, as important spots will be camped by the Enforcers permanently.
Sooner or later, there would only be bored Enforcers with nothing to do left.
Not really. With enforcer forts in the wild and bases in the city, guarding treasures, they could also get assaulted, both by criminal hordes or sneaky loners and gangs, in true heists.0 -
Reistr_the_Unbroken✭✭✭✭✭
✭TelvanniWizard wrote: »TelvanniWizard wrote: »They could add a zone only for justice pvp. It could have a huge city (full of enterable and lootable homes, alleys, dark passages, roof areas with verticality, better than A. Landing), and forts and smuggler caves in the wild, treasures, and all that.
Much fun for the Enforces, much less fun the Criminals, as important spots will be camped by the Enforcers permanently.
Sooner or later, there would only be bored Enforcers with nothing to do left.
Not really. With enforcer forts in the wild and bases in the city, guarding treasures, they could also get assaulted, both by criminal hordes or sneaky loners and gangs, in true heists.
No, just. No.0 -
Aigym_Hlervu✭✭✭✭✭I want only one change in the justice system to be made: to make the game justice mechanics stick to the Ordinator Edicts. Of course it is regarded to Morrowind only - it's irrelevant to me of what happens out there abroad. May they devour each other there with no justice system at all I won't even bother. But it is a bit odd to have, say, Mandate Seven published along with that always drinking Altmer who sells the holy Ordinator's Regalia to whoever pays him. The same is about bardic songs intended for public performance without any approval by the Ministry of Doctrine and Ordination, Mandate Sixteen as I think is directed to those RPers who do not keep to the Tribunal but still wander our Dunmeri lands freely. These things (the mechanics and the lore), I would propose to reconcile them with each other. The rest of the current justice system is good I think. Well, maybe more guards? Too many dead NPCs out there murdered and robbed by PC characters. I don't like to watch someone robbs a Dunmer NPC just a few steps of me and no one can do anything to stop that crime.Edited by Aigym_Hlervu on October 20, 2019 4:49PM0
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James-Wayne✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm sure the proposed Justice system will come back once they know how to do it the right way.PERTH, AUSTRALIA | PC | NA | @Aussie-Elders
TENTH ANNIVERSARY - Thanks for sticking with us for 10 years.
James-Wayne you earned this badge 9:56AM on 4th of February 2024.
529 people have also earned this badge.0 -
jainiadral✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭IMHO, the best thing to do with the justice system is to scrap it entirely. Dealing with it makes TG dailies to advance the plotlines almost unbearable and is probably the biggest reason I've never finished it.0 -
Jhalin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭starkerealm wrote: »Dusk_Coven wrote: »Not until they fix how laughable it is. Examples:
- Sleep2Win -- log off your character with the huge bounty, go to sleep, wake up and poof you're a free toon
- Hiding Spots -- the guard SAW YOU JUMP INTO IT. They should insta-kill you when that happens. Instead they scratch their head and walk away.
- Jumps in Water -- I'M INVINCIBLE!
I’ve had a guard switch from a 2H to a bow once and plink at me while I was swimming away. They also used to launch revealing flares. I’ve noticed both of these behaviors don’t happen anymore, so it’s even easier to evade guards.0 -
Lumenn✭✭✭✭✭
✭As a tie-in to this I (and from a few threads I've seen, others too) think it's odd you automatically get bounty for some actions as a necro(no, I don't main a necro. Tried them all but love my stamsorc the most) but nothing for vamps, ww, sorcerer pets etc. Animate a skeleton for a minute, or accidentally pick up an item and you're a vile, evil being that must be wiped out and a bounty on your head. Openly consort with demons(sorcerer pets) walk around town as a blood starved vampire, or wolf out in one of the MANY DUELS at WAYSHRINES and no one blinks an eye.
The PvP part that was never implemented doesn't really intrest me atm. Considering some of the...difficulties...Zos has had with stability I'm glad they didn't add it. But the bounties for some and passes for other is a bit jaring to me.0 -
jircris11✭✭✭✭✭
✭darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »I wish there was more to it than just avoiding the guards. Maybe NPC's that require a bounty to interact with, or random bounty hunter encounters in the wild, who knows. Just more than what we have now, especially with how easy it is to avoid/escape the guards.
The bounty hunter sounds funIGN: Ki'rah
Khajiit/Vampire
DC/AD faction/NA server.
RPer0 -
Aigym_Hlervu✭✭✭✭✭As a tie-in to this I (and from a few threads I've seen, others too) think it's odd you automatically get bounty for some actions as a necro(no, I don't main a necro. Tried them all but love my stamsorc the most) but nothing for vamps, ww, sorcerer pets etc. Animate a skeleton for a minute, or accidentally pick up an item and you're a vile, evil being that must be wiped out and a bounty on your head. Openly consort with demons(sorcerer pets) walk around town as a blood starved vampire, or wolf out in one of the MANY DUELS at WAYSHRINES and no one blinks an eye.
The PvP part that was never implemented doesn't really intrest me atm. Considering some of the...difficulties...Zos has had with stability I'm glad they didn't add it. But the bounties for some and passes for other is a bit jaring to me.
Agreed almost with everything except your words on Sorcerer's Daedric servants.I guess you haven't read the book. We have the right to summon all of them in Morrowind thus it must stay legit there. Necromancy and Vamprism should also be tolerated in Telvanni lands I guess.0 -
doomette✭✭✭✭✭
✭Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »As a tie-in to this I (and from a few threads I've seen, others too) think it's odd you automatically get bounty for some actions as a necro(no, I don't main a necro. Tried them all but love my stamsorc the most) but nothing for vamps, ww, sorcerer pets etc. Animate a skeleton for a minute, or accidentally pick up an item and you're a vile, evil being that must be wiped out and a bounty on your head. Openly consort with demons(sorcerer pets) walk around town as a blood starved vampire, or wolf out in one of the MANY DUELS at WAYSHRINES and no one blinks an eye.
The PvP part that was never implemented doesn't really intrest me atm. Considering some of the...difficulties...Zos has had with stability I'm glad they didn't add it. But the bounties for some and passes for other is a bit jaring to me.
Agreed almost with everything except your words on Sorcerer's Daedric servants.I guess you haven't read the book. We have the right to summon all of them in Morrowind thus it must stay legit there. Necromancy and Vamprism should also be tolerated in Telvanni lands I guess.
Is this some sneaky way to boost UESP (
that site) traffic masquerading as an über dark elf RPer ( 
) or something because wow you sure like that link. 0 -
darthgummibear_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭starkerealm wrote: »Dusk_Coven wrote: »Not until they fix how laughable it is. Examples:
- Sleep2Win -- log off your character with the huge bounty, go to sleep, wake up and poof you're a free toon
- Hiding Spots -- the guard SAW YOU JUMP INTO IT. They should insta-kill you when that happens. Instead they scratch their head and walk away.
- Jumps in Water -- I'M INVINCIBLE!
I’ve had a guard switch from a 2H to a bow once and plink at me while I was swimming away. They also used to launch revealing flares. I’ve noticed both of these behaviors don’t happen anymore, so it’s even easier to evade guards.
I still get shot at in the water, but I haven't seen the flare thing. The shots in the water don't do much damage though. Just pop the self-heal before you jump in and you'll be fine.0 -
Aigym_Hlervu✭✭✭✭✭Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »As a tie-in to this I (and from a few threads I've seen, others too) think it's odd you automatically get bounty for some actions as a necro(no, I don't main a necro. Tried them all but love my stamsorc the most) but nothing for vamps, ww, sorcerer pets etc. Animate a skeleton for a minute, or accidentally pick up an item and you're a vile, evil being that must be wiped out and a bounty on your head. Openly consort with demons(sorcerer pets) walk around town as a blood starved vampire, or wolf out in one of the MANY DUELS at WAYSHRINES and no one blinks an eye.
The PvP part that was never implemented doesn't really intrest me atm. Considering some of the...difficulties...Zos has had with stability I'm glad they didn't add it. But the bounties for some and passes for other is a bit jaring to me.
Agreed almost with everything except your words on Sorcerer's Daedric servants.I guess you haven't read the book. We have the right to summon all of them in Morrowind thus it must stay legit there. Necromancy and Vamprism should also be tolerated in Telvanni lands I guess.
Is this some sneaky way to boost UESP ( that site) traffic masquerading as an über dark elf RPer ( ) or something because wow you sure like that link.
Nope. I can give another link to a TES fandom site, but this is not the point. And I'm not an RPer the way others role-play. I'm just a Dunmer who achieves different goals the game provides with no daydreams or headcanon. My post is the matter of in-game lore and game mechanics it has to stick to. Otherwise it won't be an Elder Scrolls game. I have nothing common with those RPers' daydreams, backstories and headcanon they usually invent.0 -
doomette✭✭✭✭✭
✭Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »As a tie-in to this I (and from a few threads I've seen, others too) think it's odd you automatically get bounty for some actions as a necro(no, I don't main a necro. Tried them all but love my stamsorc the most) but nothing for vamps, ww, sorcerer pets etc. Animate a skeleton for a minute, or accidentally pick up an item and you're a vile, evil being that must be wiped out and a bounty on your head. Openly consort with demons(sorcerer pets) walk around town as a blood starved vampire, or wolf out in one of the MANY DUELS at WAYSHRINES and no one blinks an eye.
The PvP part that was never implemented doesn't really intrest me atm. Considering some of the...difficulties...Zos has had with stability I'm glad they didn't add it. But the bounties for some and passes for other is a bit jaring to me.
Agreed almost with everything except your words on Sorcerer's Daedric servants.I guess you haven't read the book. We have the right to summon all of them in Morrowind thus it must stay legit there. Necromancy and Vamprism should also be tolerated in Telvanni lands I guess.
Is this some sneaky way to boost UESP ( that site) traffic masquerading as an über dark elf RPer ( ) or something because wow you sure like that link.
Nope. I can give another link to a TES fandom site, but this is not the point. And I'm not an RPer the way others role-play. I'm just a Dunmer who achieves different goals the game provides with no daydreams or headcanon. My post is the matter of in-game lore and game mechanics it has to stick to. Otherwise it won't be an Elder Scrolls game. I have nothing common with those RPers' daydreams, backstories and headcanon they usually invent.
Ah, well whatever you find fun, you do you. But some of your suggestions for game mechanics would be quite unbalanced, totally changing (if not outright favoring) the mechanics of one race/area over others. Dunmer supremacy or whatever should never supersede game balance, even if it’s justified by lore.0 -
Aigym_Hlervu✭✭✭✭✭Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »As a tie-in to this I (and from a few threads I've seen, others too) think it's odd you automatically get bounty for some actions as a necro(no, I don't main a necro. Tried them all but love my stamsorc the most) but nothing for vamps, ww, sorcerer pets etc. Animate a skeleton for a minute, or accidentally pick up an item and you're a vile, evil being that must be wiped out and a bounty on your head. Openly consort with demons(sorcerer pets) walk around town as a blood starved vampire, or wolf out in one of the MANY DUELS at WAYSHRINES and no one blinks an eye.
The PvP part that was never implemented doesn't really intrest me atm. Considering some of the...difficulties...Zos has had with stability I'm glad they didn't add it. But the bounties for some and passes for other is a bit jaring to me.
Agreed almost with everything except your words on Sorcerer's Daedric servants.I guess you haven't read the book. We have the right to summon all of them in Morrowind thus it must stay legit there. Necromancy and Vamprism should also be tolerated in Telvanni lands I guess.
Is this some sneaky way to boost UESP ( that site) traffic masquerading as an über dark elf RPer ( ) or something because wow you sure like that link.
Nope. I can give another link to a TES fandom site, but this is not the point. And I'm not an RPer the way others role-play. I'm just a Dunmer who achieves different goals the game provides with no daydreams or headcanon. My post is the matter of in-game lore and game mechanics it has to stick to. Otherwise it won't be an Elder Scrolls game. I have nothing common with those RPers' daydreams, backstories and headcanon they usually invent.
Ah, well whatever you find fun, you do you. But some of your suggestions for game mechanics would be quite unbalanced, totally changing (if not outright favoring) the mechanics of one race/area over others. Dunmer supremacy or whatever should never supersede game balance, even if it’s justified by lore.
Yes, I agree with you here. This is why I prefer only to point out the diversity between some lore parts and its corresponding game mechanics. Balance between them must be maintained of course, but I guess the devs are to think over it, not the players. I mean their lore and coding teams could communicate a bit better in terms to reconcile the world created by one team and the depiction of this world created by the other.1 -
doomette✭✭✭✭✭
✭
As a Bosmer main, I completely agree (grumble grumble stealth nerf)Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »Cygemai_Hlervu wrote: »As a tie-in to this I (and from a few threads I've seen, others too) think it's odd you automatically get bounty for some actions as a necro(no, I don't main a necro. Tried them all but love my stamsorc the most) but nothing for vamps, ww, sorcerer pets etc. Animate a skeleton for a minute, or accidentally pick up an item and you're a vile, evil being that must be wiped out and a bounty on your head. Openly consort with demons(sorcerer pets) walk around town as a blood starved vampire, or wolf out in one of the MANY DUELS at WAYSHRINES and no one blinks an eye.
The PvP part that was never implemented doesn't really intrest me atm. Considering some of the...difficulties...Zos has had with stability I'm glad they didn't add it. But the bounties for some and passes for other is a bit jaring to me.
Agreed almost with everything except your words on Sorcerer's Daedric servants.I guess you haven't read the book. We have the right to summon all of them in Morrowind thus it must stay legit there. Necromancy and Vamprism should also be tolerated in Telvanni lands I guess.
Is this some sneaky way to boost UESP ( that site) traffic masquerading as an über dark elf RPer ( ) or something because wow you sure like that link.
Nope. I can give another link to a TES fandom site, but this is not the point. And I'm not an RPer the way others role-play. I'm just a Dunmer who achieves different goals the game provides with no daydreams or headcanon. My post is the matter of in-game lore and game mechanics it has to stick to. Otherwise it won't be an Elder Scrolls game. I have nothing common with those RPers' daydreams, backstories and headcanon they usually invent.
Ah, well whatever you find fun, you do you. But some of your suggestions for game mechanics would be quite unbalanced, totally changing (if not outright favoring) the mechanics of one race/area over others. Dunmer supremacy or whatever should never supersede game balance, even if it’s justified by lore.
Yes, I agree with you here. This is why I prefer only to point out the diversity between some lore parts and its corresponding game mechanics. Balance between them must be maintained of course, but I guess the devs are to think over it, not the players. I mean their lore and coding teams could communicate a bit better in terms to reconcile the world created by one team and the depiction of this world created by the other.
0