Do something with the justice system.

darthgummibear_ESO

I wish there was more to it than just avoiding the guards. Maybe NPC's that require a bounty to interact with, or random bounty hunter encounters in the wild, who knows. Just more than what we have now, especially with how easy it is to avoid/escape the guards.

starkerealm

Originally, the plan was for a PvP system. So, players would flag themselves as Enforcers, and could then engage in PvP against players with bounties. They'd loot any contraband off their foes, and then turn that in for rewards. Enforcers would turn contraband in at their base, while outlaws would go to the sewer fences.

There was also a plan for Outlaw Dens out in the wild, that Enforcers could enter and try to obtain contraband. Along the way they'd face normal delve grade foes, and hostile outlaw players. If they succeeded in recovering stolen goods from the den, they could take that back to their base, and turn it in.

The system was scrapped sometime around Orsinium or Hew's Bane, though I'd love for it to be revisited today.

darthgummibear_ESO

starkerealm wrote: »

Originally, the plan was for a PvP system. So, players would flag themselves as Enforcers, and could then engage in PvP against players with bounties. They'd loot any contraband off their foes, and then turn that in for rewards. Enforcers would turn contraband in at their base, while outlaws would go to the sewer fences.

There was also a plan for Outlaw Dens out in the wild, that Enforcers could enter and try to obtain contraband. Along the way they'd face normal delve grade foes, and hostile outlaw players. If they succeeded in recovering stolen goods from the den, they could take that back to their base, and turn it in.

The system was scrapped sometime around Orsinium or Hew's Bane, though I'd love for it to be revisited today.

It's unfortunate that we lost out on what could have been a cool dynamic system in favor of a handful of crappy radiant quests.

nafensoriel

The enforcer system was scrapped because they realized any bounty based player system is exploitable as all heck.

This is why no game does player based enforcement. You cant make it unexploitable and profitable at the same time.

darthgummibear_ESO

nafensoriel wrote: »

The enforcer system was scrapped because they realized any bounty based player system is exploitable as all heck.

This is why no game does player based enforcement. You cant make it unexploitable and profitable at the same time.

I get that, but there has to be more they can do than what we have now.

starkerealm

nafensoriel wrote: »

The enforcer system was scrapped because they realized any bounty based player system is exploitable as all heck.

This is why no game does player based enforcement. You cant make it unexploitable and profitable at the same time.

That's only if you actually pay out the full bounty to the player doing the killing. If you take a cut (so it becomes a gold sink), and the gold pulled has to come from the target's inventory (so, no new money is generated), you're not creating a situation where you can endlessly generate more cash.

Also, Fallout 76 does have a player based bounty system with payouts. Not sure 76 is the best example of good game design, but it does exist in the wild.

ArchangelIsraphel

starkerealm wrote: »

nafensoriel wrote: »

The enforcer system was scrapped because they realized any bounty based player system is exploitable as all heck.

This is why no game does player based enforcement. You cant make it unexploitable and profitable at the same time.

That's only if you actually pay out the full bounty to the player doing the killing. If you take a cut (so it becomes a gold sink), and the gold pulled has to come from the target's inventory (so, no new money is generated), you're not creating a situation where you can endlessly generate more cash.

Also, Fallout 76 does have a player based bounty system with payouts. Not sure 76 is the best example of good game design, but it does exist in the wild.

The problem with that whole system is also that thieves steal from NPC's, which effects no one and nothing, and "Enforcers" get gold by killing players, effectively making them the actual thieves since a thief cant pickpocket a player and an enforcer basically can by killing you.

idk

nafensoriel wrote: »

The enforcer system was scrapped because they realized any bounty based player system is exploitable as all heck.

This is why no game does player based enforcement. You cant make it unexploitable and profitable at the same time.

This was probably only part of it. The other part is bringing in open world PvP to zones and a game that was clearly designed to be mostly PvE only. With the feedback Zos may have faced the decision to have an toggle for the PvP aspect or abandon the system. The only way I have seen a toggle system to opt in or out of PvP was one that puts you in a different instance and Zos decided long ago to not have such a system for other purposes.

starkerealm

ArchangelIsraphel wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

nafensoriel wrote: »

The enforcer system was scrapped because they realized any bounty based player system is exploitable as all heck.

This is why no game does player based enforcement. You cant make it unexploitable and profitable at the same time.

That's only if you actually pay out the full bounty to the player doing the killing. If you take a cut (so it becomes a gold sink), and the gold pulled has to come from the target's inventory (so, no new money is generated), you're not creating a situation where you can endlessly generate more cash.

Also, Fallout 76 does have a player based bounty system with payouts. Not sure 76 is the best example of good game design, but it does exist in the wild.

The problem with that whole system is also that thieves steal from NPC's, which effects no one and nothing, and "Enforcers" get gold by killing players, effectively making them the actual thieves since a thief cant pickpocket a player and an enforcer basically can by killing you.

It's an asymmetric system. If the Enforcer can't find any outlaw players, they get nothing.

If you choose to break the law, then you take a risk, but could reap substantial rewards.

It's not perfect. The actual payouts from thievery in ESO aren't quite good enough to justify flagging yourself for PvP.

The tradeoff is that, as the system was described, you could pick the enforcer's pockets. Not sure if you got to use your own bounty from them, or if you could only pull their confiscated contraband and pocket that. Either way, there were risks to being an Enforcer.

VaranisArano

The PVP addition to the Justice System got nixed because ZOS didnt want it exploited...

But also because the vast majority of PVEers would prefer not to have sudden PVP in the middle of their PVE. And the TG/DB activites are super easy for PVP players to stalk TG/DB players. Just sit on the Anvil docks and watch the murders, or sit on the wayshrine near the Sanctuary and wait for someone to port in with a bounty. Or spot someone stealing and stalk them until they screw up.

Personally, I'm a PVPer, and even I prefer to not have sudden PVP in the middle of my PVE activities in otherwise PVE zones.


I would like it if ZOS made some of the base game guards have those stealth suppression circles. That added a fun element of timing and prevented some of the egregious ability to stack stealth bonuses from gear to evade guards.

darthgummibear_ESO

VaranisArano wrote: »

The PVP addition to the Justice System got nixed because ZOS didnt want it exploited...

But also because the vast majority of PVEers would prefer not to have sudden PVP in the middle of their PVE. And the TG/DB activites are super easy for PVP players to stalk TG/DB players. Just sit on the Anvil docks and watch the murders, or sit on the wayshrine near the Sanctuary and wait for someone to port in with a bounty. Or spot someone stealing and stalk them until they screw up.

Personally, I'm a PVPer, and even I prefer to not have sudden PVP in the middle of my PVE activities in otherwise PVE zones.


I would like it if ZOS made some of the base game guards have those stealth suppression circles. That added a fun element of timing and prevented some of the egregious ability to stack stealth bonuses from gear to evade guards.

I just want the justice system to have more to it than simply avoiding the guards.

starkerealm

VaranisArano wrote: »

The PVP addition to the Justice System got nixed because ZOS didnt want it exploited...

But also because the vast majority of PVEers would prefer not to have sudden PVP in the middle of their PVE. And the TG/DB activites are super easy for PVP players to stalk TG/DB players. Just sit on the Anvil docks and watch the murders, or sit on the wayshrine near the Sanctuary and wait for someone to port in with a bounty. Or spot someone stealing and stalk them until they screw up.

Personally, I'm a PVPer, and even I prefer to not have sudden PVP in the middle of my PVE activities in otherwise PVE zones.


I would like it if ZOS made some of the base game guards have those stealth suppression circles. That added a fun element of timing and prevented some of the egregious ability to stack stealth bonuses from gear to evade guards.

The problem with the proposed system was always that outlaws flagged themselves, potentially by accident.

If you had skill lines for Outlaw and Enforcer, and then had to commit a skill point to them to unlock PvP for that faction, that would a long way towards gating the system from accidentally getting murdered by another player because you accidentally hoovered up something by the writ turning.

VaranisArano

starkerealm wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

The PVP addition to the Justice System got nixed because ZOS didnt want it exploited...

But also because the vast majority of PVEers would prefer not to have sudden PVP in the middle of their PVE. And the TG/DB activites are super easy for PVP players to stalk TG/DB players. Just sit on the Anvil docks and watch the murders, or sit on the wayshrine near the Sanctuary and wait for someone to port in with a bounty. Or spot someone stealing and stalk them until they screw up.

Personally, I'm a PVPer, and even I prefer to not have sudden PVP in the middle of my PVE activities in otherwise PVE zones.


I would like it if ZOS made some of the base game guards have those stealth suppression circles. That added a fun element of timing and prevented some of the egregious ability to stack stealth bonuses from gear to evade guards.

The problem with the proposed system was always that outlaws flagged themselves, potentially by accident.

If you had skill lines for Outlaw and Enforcer, and then had to commit a skill point to them to unlock PvP for that faction, that would a long way towards gating the system from accidentally getting murdered by another player because you accidentally hoovered up something by the writ turning.

I'm less worried about accidentally getting hit by an Enforcer for a minor bounty, and more concerned by how easy it is to find and stalk players who are doing Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood content, and just wait for them to make a mistake and *gank*.

If players could do all current justice system content without needing the Outlaw skill line at all, i.e. it was separate and not a requirement for stealing, TG, or DB content, then I'd be more okay with it.

TheShadowScout

darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »

I wish there was more to it than just avoiding the guards...

Same. But that should come as no suprise, considering...
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/384538/for-great-justice/p1

NBrookus

PVE and PVP are uneasy bedfellows. Perhaps the more palatable approach is from an RP standpoint, not a PVP one. For example:

If the player criminal has a bounty for murder, they can be attacker by another player and killed, any contraband from their inventory is removed, and they lose the use of the Blade of Woe for some period of time. Once attacked, the player murderer can try to escape or they can fight back and kill the enforcer player, retaining any ill-gotten lot they may have.

If the player criminal has a bounty for theft, they can be attacked by another player and once they reach 1 health, the criminal bounty is cleared and stolen items removed from their inventory. Again, the player criminal can run away. Or, they can fight back and kill the enforcer player. There is no self-defense penalty.

Enforcer players do not get gold or items from the criminal players they accost. They could maybe get a skill line with non-combat perks like increased stealth detection, and their own repeatable bounty quests with separate rewards.

QoL improvements for criminal players:
If you have a bounty, you can stealth, invis pot, cloak around other players
You can wayshrine transit from one Refuge to another once inside (to help avoid any camping)
Enforcer players have a glow around them so they can be identified (to help reduce stalking)

None of this applies in IC, BGs or Cyro, of course. This would be more like PVP-lite, where it's a hide and seek or chase game, not a source of revenue. And since the criminal's bounty is cleared if killed/dropped to 1 health, they are protected from repeated griefing.

starkerealm

VaranisArano wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

The PVP addition to the Justice System got nixed because ZOS didnt want it exploited...

But also because the vast majority of PVEers would prefer not to have sudden PVP in the middle of their PVE. And the TG/DB activites are super easy for PVP players to stalk TG/DB players. Just sit on the Anvil docks and watch the murders, or sit on the wayshrine near the Sanctuary and wait for someone to port in with a bounty. Or spot someone stealing and stalk them until they screw up.

Personally, I'm a PVPer, and even I prefer to not have sudden PVP in the middle of my PVE activities in otherwise PVE zones.


I would like it if ZOS made some of the base game guards have those stealth suppression circles. That added a fun element of timing and prevented some of the egregious ability to stack stealth bonuses from gear to evade guards.

The problem with the proposed system was always that outlaws flagged themselves, potentially by accident.

If you had skill lines for Outlaw and Enforcer, and then had to commit a skill point to them to unlock PvP for that faction, that would a long way towards gating the system from accidentally getting murdered by another player because you accidentally hoovered up something by the writ turning.

I'm less worried about accidentally getting hit by an Enforcer for a minor bounty, and more concerned by how easy it is to find and stalk players who are doing Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood content, and just wait for them to make a mistake and *gank*.

If players could do all current justice system content without needing the Outlaw skill line at all, i.e. it was separate and not a requirement for stealing, TG, or DB content, then I'd be more okay with it.

Yeah, that's what I was thinking. Breaking the entire PvP flagging system off away into its own thing without conflicting with the basic Justice system we have now.

So you couldn't just, accidentally trip over into PvP.

Dusk_Coven

Not until they fix how laughable it is. Examples:
- Sleep2Win -- log off your character with the huge bounty, go to sleep, wake up and poof you're a free toon
- Hiding Spots -- the guard SAW YOU JUMP INTO IT. They should insta-kill you when that happens. Instead they scratch their head and walk away.

starkerealm

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Not until they fix how laughable it is. Examples:
- Sleep2Win -- log off your character with the huge bounty, go to sleep, wake up and poof you're a free toon
- Hiding Spots -- the guard SAW YOU JUMP INTO IT. They should insta-kill you when that happens. Instead they scratch their head and walk away.

- Jumps in Water -- I'M INVINCIBLE!

FierceSam

I’m not sure what the point of the justice system in ESO is.

It seems very rudimentary and piecemeal. Bounties are assigned in quite a haphazard fashion, are not always clearly telegraphed and can have very variable effects. It would be useful if the whole system was more clearly thought out and coherent. It would be great if it tied in to a more involved Thieves Guild or Dark Brotherhood plot/skill line beyond their respective DLCs.

That said, it’s clear that any kind of player involvement in enforcement would be a bad idea. All the experience of Cyrodiil and Imperial City tells us that players do not like/want a mixed PvP / PvE environment. Having other players be able to kill you and steal your stuff isn’t an enjoyable game dynamic for most players.

WeerW3ir

starkerealm wrote: »

Originally, the plan was for a PvP system. So, players would flag themselves as Enforcers, and could then engage in PvP against players with bounties. They'd loot any contraband off their foes, and then turn that in for rewards. Enforcers would turn contraband in at their base, while outlaws would go to the sewer fences.

There was also a plan for Outlaw Dens out in the wild, that Enforcers could enter and try to obtain contraband. Along the way they'd face normal delve grade foes, and hostile outlaw players. If they succeeded in recovering stolen goods from the den, they could take that back to their base, and turn it in.

The system was scrapped sometime around Orsinium or Hew's Bane, though I'd love for it to be revisited today.

Sounds awful. Good that they scrapped it.

nafensoriel

starkerealm wrote: »

/snipsnip

The FO76 system also gives exactly no advantages to the players. It's not very profitable to other activities and its often extremely one-sided in power dynamics with the person choosing to "engage" in pvp often being the loser by default.

---

@darthgummibear_ESO
The issue is more that you cannot create a system that both rewards and punishes without it being very very exploitable since the resources you are using to "trade"(theft is effectively trade in games) are generated infinitely and have no functional value otherwise.

Let me paint some pictures for you to explain.

First, let's say the "good" is really profitable to take. Profit being defined by things per hour valuable to players.
If it is the MOST profitable thing to do in the game there will be LITTLE enforcement since enforcement is by nature NOT profitable. System fails.

Say the "good" is only moderately profitable. Now it carries the risk of being taken though. Why would players do a task with their very limited paid for the time that carries risk when they can do task "Y" for no risk and equal or greater rewards? System fails.

Say the good is so critical to something, like crafting, that you actually force players to acquire it via the bounty system. Say you go the extra mile and require both enforcement and theft to generate two different resource streams.
Considering players always find the least amount of effort paths you will have groups control these resources with convoluted "*** for tat" cycles. Exploitation becomes the norm and you have to choose between going after exploiters or having a failed system. System fails.

The reality is due to how players play games online they will universally gravitate, as a majority, to the most efficient thing. With bounty systems of any type you are adding risk in some form or fashion and due to that risk, you either are the least profitable thing or the most exploitable thing. This is why no one has ever created a long term functional justice system. As it currently stands it lands squarely in "impossible" until someone comes up with a totally new way to do things. Unfortunately many have tried and all have failed so far.

@ pvp+pve worlds being combined
This is scraped from almost all games due to the above system also applying. In no way can an obligated pvp system work in a PVE world. You just have a low-profit high-risk system in a player vs player world. History has shown us these fail or have extremely low usage rates(IC is a great example) because people prefer certainty in reward over time scenarios.

Really I want you to think about it. If it was easy to do someone would have done it. PVP by its very nature is not very populous within the game community. For every PVPer there are a hundred pure PVE players.

/edit accidentally deleted quote closer

darthgummibear_ESO

nafensoriel wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

/snipsnip

The FO76 system also gives exactly no advantages to the players. It's not very profitable to other activities and its often extremely one-sided in power dynamics with the person choosing to "engage" in pvp often being the loser by default.

---

@darthgummibear_ESO
The issue is more that you cannot create a system that both rewards and punishes without it being very very exploitable since the resources you are using to "trade"(theft is effectively trade in games) are generated infinitely and have no functional value otherwise.

Let me paint some pictures for you to explain.

First, let's say the "good" is really profitable to take. Profit being defined by things per hour valuable to players.
If it is the MOST profitable thing to do in the game there will be LITTLE enforcement since enforcement is by nature NOT profitable. System fails.

Say the "good" is only moderately profitable. Now it carries the risk of being taken though. Why would players do a task with their very limited paid for the time that carries risk when they can do task "Y" for no risk and equal or greater rewards? System fails.

Say the good is so critical to something, like crafting, that you actually force players to acquire it via the bounty system. Say you go the extra mile and require both enforcement and theft to generate two different resource streams.
Considering players always find the least amount of effort paths you will have groups control these resources with convoluted "*** for tat" cycles. Exploitation becomes the norm and you have to choose between going after exploiters or having a failed system. System fails.

The reality is due to how players play games online they will universally gravitate, as a majority, to the most efficient thing. With bounty systems of any type you are adding risk in some form or fashion and due to that risk, you either are the least profitable thing or the most exploitable thing. This is why no one has ever created a long term functional justice system. As it currently stands it lands squarely in "impossible" until someone comes up with a totally new way to do things. Unfortunately many have tried and all have failed so far.

@ pvp+pve worlds being combined
This is scraped from almost all games due to the above system also applying. In no way can an obligated pvp system work in a PVE world. You just have a low-profit high-risk system in a player vs player world. History has shown us these fail or have extremely low usage rates(IC is a great example) because people prefer certainty in reward over time scenarios.

Really I want you to think about it. If it was easy to do someone would have done it. PVP by its very nature is not very populous within the game community. For every PVPer there are a hundred pure PVE players.

/edit accidentally deleted quote closer

Like I said before, I get that...I just wish they would do more with the justice system than what we have now, which is simply avoiding the guards. It feels like a wasted opportunity.

starkerealm

WeerW3ir wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

Originally, the plan was for a PvP system. So, players would flag themselves as Enforcers, and could then engage in PvP against players with bounties. They'd loot any contraband off their foes, and then turn that in for rewards. Enforcers would turn contraband in at their base, while outlaws would go to the sewer fences.

There was also a plan for Outlaw Dens out in the wild, that Enforcers could enter and try to obtain contraband. Along the way they'd face normal delve grade foes, and hostile outlaw players. If they succeeded in recovering stolen goods from the den, they could take that back to their base, and turn it in.

The system was scrapped sometime around Orsinium or Hew's Bane, though I'd love for it to be revisited today.

Sounds awful. Good that they scrapped it.

Without any revisions? Agreed. At it actually sounded much worse at the time. If you feel the need, you can dig through my old posts, I was an ardent opponent back in the day.

Post One-Tamriel, with some system to prevent accidental opt-in, I think it could be the foundation for a really cool, and unique PvP mode.

Hapexamendios

New justice system;

Batman

Minyassa

Seems a rather silly oversight to ignore that they already have a pvp zone and people actually use it to chill out between thieving sessions while they have a bounty. Everyone is so focused on the idea of using the justice system to try to bring pvp to open world (and that's a HAIL NO) that they are missing the concept that it could be implemented IN Cyrodiil, and kept there. That is the ultimate opt-in. If they wanted to do bounties they could simply have it kick in when someone went into Cyrodiil and have it be a part of regular pvp. This is what makes me suspect that people who keep suggesting it the usual way are just out to try to get the whole game to be pvp instead of actually caring about adding an aspect of the justice system.

Knootewoot

nafensoriel wrote: »

The enforcer system was scrapped because they realized any bounty based player system is exploitable as all heck.

This is why no game does player based enforcement. You cant make it unexploitable and profitable at the same time.

Starwars galaxies did it. And it worked. It just worked.

Dusk_Coven

Minyassa wrote: »

This is what makes me suspect that people who keep suggesting it the usual way are just out to try to get the whole game to be pvp instead of actually caring about adding an aspect of the justice system.

I think it's closer to PvP people with the ulterior motive of making a system where they can go out and stomp everyone too new to PvP to have bought their BiS gear and skill lines and revamped their toon into something they don't want to play, some button-mashing clone from an online build.
PvP people like twinks in under-50 BG systematically destroying the prospective PvP newcomer population. Or door campers during an event intended to introduce the IC to more people.
Makes you wonder why they don't want to contend with the existing PvP population, or why people wonder there isn't a better PvP population.

Wifeaggro13

starkerealm wrote: »

Originally, the plan was for a PvP system. So, players would flag themselves as Enforcers, and could then engage in PvP against players with bounties. They'd loot any contraband off their foes, and then turn that in for rewards. Enforcers would turn contraband in at their base, while outlaws would go to the sewer fences.

There was also a plan for Outlaw Dens out in the wild, that Enforcers could enter and try to obtain contraband. Along the way they'd face normal delve grade foes, and hostile outlaw players. If they succeeded in recovering stolen goods from the den, they could take that back to their base, and turn it in.

The system was scrapped sometime around Orsinium or Hew's Bane, though I'd love for it to be revisited today.

all of eso's post launch systems are half finished visions of original intention. champion point system is the gross offender

srfrogg23

starkerealm wrote: »

Originally, the plan was for a PvP system. So, players would flag themselves as Enforcers, and could then engage in PvP against players with bounties. They'd loot any contraband off their foes, and then turn that in for rewards. Enforcers would turn contraband in at their base, while outlaws would go to the sewer fences.

There was also a plan for Outlaw Dens out in the wild, that Enforcers could enter and try to obtain contraband. Along the way they'd face normal delve grade foes, and hostile outlaw players. If they succeeded in recovering stolen goods from the den, they could take that back to their base, and turn it in.

The system was scrapped sometime around Orsinium or Hew's Bane, though I'd love for it to be revisited today.

Too exploitable. If there was any reward associated, people would just take turns killing each other until they had completely destroyed the system. There just wouldn't be any way to make it fun, fair, and rewarding with the way the non-Cyrodiil zones are set up.

Not to forget the griefing that would also occur...

Grimm13

To me there is a disconnect in faction identity with the justice system. Why does AD guards care if you were caught in DC or EP stealing? Why are they enforcing those bounties?

Privateering against foes was a common practice. But if you preyed on the Nation that issued the letter of privateer, that's when they cared and deemed you a pirate. The Nation you privateer against deems you a pirate to them.

DaveMoeDee

darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »

I wish there was more to it than just avoiding the guards. Maybe NPC's that require a bounty to interact with, or random bounty hunter encounters in the wild, who knows. Just more than what we have now, especially with how easy it is to avoid/escape the guards.

I like the idea of bounty hunter quests were you use your bounty to lure NPCs to attack you. It can be like Maiq or the helping the poor achievements that have spawn points in multiple zones. There are questions though about how to implement something like that when others can join in the fight.