Stamcros still out-performing every other class

TheZachinator · October 2019

Title. There's still literally no reason to not stack raids full of stamcros. The major vuln nerf was a solid step in the right direction, but then buffing basically the rest of their skills kind of overrode that.

Firstmep · October 2019

On the flipside the up to 10sec major vuln is going to be a blast to play aganist in pvp xD

OtarTheMad · October 2019

Unfortunately Necromancers suffer from the same problem as Wardens did which is you can't buff Magcro to viability without making Stamcro OP, or at least ZOS can't. Stamina is doing better than magicka because stamina can rely on weapon skill lines to make up for blah damage from class skills whereas magicka only has class skills and a few from destro.

Again I will say tho that I think the Necro ults hide how below average this class really is.

Jarrods32 · October 2019

From a pve standpoint what is dps numbers looking like on stamcro in 5.2.3

Austinseph1 · October 2019

Nothing will be able to compete with the effectiveness of Major Vuln while it exists from only 1 source in the game. But hey it sells the chapter doesn't it. Its definitely a case of "Yeah you could use another composition but why bother?". No class benefit will compete with what necro can bring to the table even with a cooldown because it also destroys trash pulls, something just as time consuming as bosses. There wont be any hurry to balance it until the next class is introduced and needs to overshadow what is currently in game.

LiquidPony · October 2019

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Unfortunately Necromancers suffer from the same problem as Wardens did which is you can't buff Magcro to viability without making Stamcro OP, or at least ZOS can't. Stamina is doing better than magicka because stamina can rely on weapon skill lines to make up for blah damage from class skills whereas magicka only has class skills and a few from destro.

Again I will say tho that I think the Necro ults hide how below average this class really is.

The last sentence is not true. I've seen PTS stamnecro parses using Ballista (since beyond ~3 stamnecros you'll want to use some other ulti on bosses) around 91k, which is higher than I've seen any other stam build parse.

Jarrods32 wrote: »

From a pve standpoint what is dps numbers looking like on stamcro in 5.2.3

Highest I've seen so far is about 93.5k.

Jarrods32 · October 2019

U got a link to that 93k parse?

LiquidPony · October 2019

Jarrods32 wrote: »

U got a link to that 93k parse?

From TRE: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/389813886993563660/631901833886957578/unknown.png

Iskiab · October 2019

LiquidPony wrote: »

Jarrods32 wrote: »

U got a link to that 93k parse?

From TRE: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/389813886993563660/631901833886957578/unknown.png

o.O 2 hander?

Onefrkncrzypope · October 2019

Math time:

Colossus ult price: 225
Basic ult gain(no corpse consumption): 3 ult/s minimum
Corpse consumption ult gain: 5/16 = .3125 ult/s maximum
total maximum time to gain ult: 225/3 = 75 Secs
Total perfect uptime with basic necro kit: 225/3.125 72 secs minimum
Therefore #of necros needed for perfect uptime: 20*X = 75 secs = 3.75 necros aka 4 necros for more than enough uptime. There is a standard 8 DPS in a group.

What does 4 necros bring to the group?

8/20 = 40% uptime

.6(100% damage output) + .4(130% damage output(assumptions are made for ease of calculation) = 12% damage boost max.

Anymore necro in group you will most likely receive a loss because of standard necro dps is dependent on major vulnerability...

Is my math right? IDK but it shows regardless of approximations I made that the full necro stack is dead... Just a half stack lol.

LiquidPony · October 2019

Iskiab wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Jarrods32 wrote: »

U got a link to that 93k parse?

From TRE: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/389813886993563660/631901833886957578/unknown.png

o.O 2 hander?

Wrecking Blow is probably the best spammable this patch and Executioner/Reverse Slice is much cheaper than Whirling Blades.

Rending Slashes is trash so no loss missing that.

Jarrods32 · October 2019

Thanks so 2hander??

LiquidPony · October 2019

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Math time:

Colossus ult price: 225
Basic ult gain(no corpse consumption): 3 ult/s minimum
Corpse consumption ult gain: 5/16 = .3125 ult/s maximum
total maximum time to gain ult: 225/3 = 75 Secs
Total perfect uptime with basic necro kit: 225/3.125 72 secs minimum
Therefore #of necros needed for perfect uptime: 20*X = 75 secs = 3.75 necros aka 4 necros for more than enough uptime. There is a standard 8 DPS in a group.

What does 4 necros bring to the group?

8/20 = 40% uptime

.6(100% damage output) + .4(130% damage output(assumptions are made for ease of calculation) = 12% damage boost max.

Anymore necro in group you will most likely receive a loss because of standard necro dps is dependent on major vulnerability...

Is my math right? IDK but it shows regardless of approximations I made that the full necro stack is dead... Just a half stack lol.

Necro DPS is not totally dependent on Major Vulnerability.

But I would say that beyond the 3/4 necros necessary to keep max Major Vulnerability uptime, you'd probably want ... 1 stamDK for the stagger stacks, and then I guess 3 stamsorcs for the Major Berserk? Given that you have NB/DK/Warden supports that is.

But this doesn't consider trash pull DPS.

For something like vSS, it still may be optimal to run basically an all stamcro group (maybe 1 stamDK for the Stagger) because you'll alternate through Colossus ultis in trash pulls. Given that stamcros do competitive DPS with some other ulti (and they do).

Aerenel · October 2019

From what ive heard, without major vuln, stamcro is parsing 90k, tied with stamsorc and magsorc for top dps next patch.

Definitely not below average.

Azyle1 · October 2019

I would be curious to see how sWarden Holdd up to sCro.

Davadin · October 2019

Iskiab wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Jarrods32 wrote: »

U got a link to that 93k parse?

From TRE: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/389813886993563660/631901833886957578/unknown.png

o.O 2 hander?

Wrecking Blow spammable, yes.

but damn that 100% Aggresive Horn???

ThePhantomThorn · October 2019

Well
You need 1 mag dk dps for flames if you group composition is to contain any mag.
Templar is a very strong dd. Maybe not as strong but it’s up there.
With the sustain nerfs we could be seeing more heavy attack sorcs in raids.
And necrowise: major vulnerability has a cooldown. Soo a max of maybe 4 necros should be able to keep up the vulnerability with good uptime. Too many will be useless.

OtarTheMad · October 2019

LiquidPony wrote: »

OtarTheMad wrote: »

Unfortunately Necromancers suffer from the same problem as Wardens did which is you can't buff Magcro to viability without making Stamcro OP, or at least ZOS can't. Stamina is doing better than magicka because stamina can rely on weapon skill lines to make up for blah damage from class skills whereas magicka only has class skills and a few from destro.

Again I will say tho that I think the Necro ults hide how below average this class really is.

The last sentence is not true. I've seen PTS stamnecro parses using Ballista (since beyond ~3 stamnecros you'll want to use some other ulti on bosses) around 91k, which is higher than I've seen any other stam build parse.

Jarrods32 wrote: »

From a pve standpoint what is dps numbers looking like on stamcro in 5.2.3

Highest I've seen so far is about 93.5k.

Very true but that is also stamina which, like I mentioned, is going to do better since they can benefit from more weapon skill lines so that makes up for lack of good class damage. Like I said it'll be hard to balance the two since stamina in general is just better in some ways and has been for a while. Stamcros might be strong for quite some time while Magcros will be meh... just like wardens were.

Stibbons · October 2019

In pvp not.

LiquidPony · October 2019

Davadin wrote: »

Iskiab wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Jarrods32 wrote: »

U got a link to that 93k parse?

From TRE: https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/389813886993563660/631901833886957578/unknown.png

o.O 2 hander?

Wrecking Blow spammable, yes.

but damn that 100% Aggresive Horn???

... it's a raid dummy parse. You always have 100% uptimes.

Azyle1 wrote: »

I would be curious to see how sWarden Holdd up to sCro.

Stamden looks pretty terrible, lowest stam parses I've seen.

BooPerScOOper · October 2019

Stibbons wrote: »

In pvp not.

This isn't about PVP....

Waffennacht · October 2019

BooPerScOOper wrote: »

Stibbons wrote: »

In pvp not.

This isn't about PVP....

But PvP must be considered

ThePhantomThorn · October 2019

Waffennacht wrote: »

BooPerScOOper wrote: »

Stibbons wrote: »

In pvp not.

This isn't about PVP....

But PvP must be considered

No.
What part of the raid group composition has anything to do with pvp?

This thread is obviously specified to raid groups and dps.

Read through.

Calboy · October 2019

Nah, nerf pet sorcerers instead.

Onefrkncrzypope · October 2019

LiquidPony wrote: »

Onefrkncrzypope wrote: »

Math time:

Colossus ult price: 225
Basic ult gain(no corpse consumption): 3 ult/s minimum
Corpse consumption ult gain: 5/16 = .3125 ult/s maximum
total maximum time to gain ult: 225/3 = 75 Secs
Total perfect uptime with basic necro kit: 225/3.125 72 secs minimum
Therefore #of necros needed for perfect uptime: 20*X = 75 secs = 3.75 necros aka 4 necros for more than enough uptime. There is a standard 8 DPS in a group.

What does 4 necros bring to the group?

8/20 = 40% uptime

.6(100% damage output) + .4(130% damage output(assumptions are made for ease of calculation) = 12% damage boost max.

Anymore necro in group you will most likely receive a loss because of standard necro dps is dependent on major vulnerability...

Is my math right? IDK but it shows regardless of approximations I made that the full necro stack is dead... Just a half stack lol.

Necro DPS is not totally dependent on Major Vulnerability.

But I would say that beyond the 3/4 necros necessary to keep max Major Vulnerability uptime, you'd probably want ... 1 stamDK for the stagger stacks, and then I guess 3 stamsorcs for the Major Berserk? Given that you have NB/DK/Warden supports that is.

But this doesn't consider trash pull DPS.

For something like vSS, it still may be optimal to run basically an all stamcro group (maybe 1 stamDK for the Stagger) because you'll alternate through Colossus ultis in trash pulls. Given that stamcros do competitive DPS with some other ulti (and they do).

Sorry, I was meaning dependent as top contender for group spot. After the complete uptime, a group would be more inclined to run a different class. Just like you perfectly explained.