ZOS, nobody wants to play a TURD for years while you "figure it out"

Wing · September 2019

@ZOS_RichLambert

and recent events have thrown into very clear view that you cannot even fall back on "we need to test it on live server" buffing dots by 50%+ then next patch going "oh crap!" and throwing the lever the other way by 60%+ to the point that they just don't function proves that your not testing this internally.

and we get promises of "hey don't worry will get it all figured out in a couple years, just play till then" . . .

um, no.

how about you spend some time internally and just figure it out there and then we get a SINGLE patch that is the big class overhaul, you bring it to the PTS, ACTUALLY USE THE FEEDBACK from the PTS, and we get a full view of:

-oh okay so the DK heals with group bubbles and has strong dots but no execute and is focused more on a close range aoe playstyle and is resistant to ranged damage got it.

-oh so templar is focused on direct healing and channeled damage and is not very mobile but can strike out over great distance

-etc.

this mentality of "hey you suck now, and will for the foreseeable future, but stick around and in about a year you might have some fun, unless we get caught up on this +/- 100% lever again, that things kind of tricky, it just wants to fling itself all over the place LOL. . .oh, there it goes again, looks like direct damage spamables just got a 100% buff, crazy!"

no

quit it

finish the classes in house, show us on the pts, use the feedback, come back and show us, reiterate till we all like it. de couple balance and DLC updates, the two don't have to be hand in hand.

its not as hard as your making it on yourself (and on us with your boobery)

Stellarvorous · September 2019

@Wing While I agree with your frustration tbh I gave up on hoping for consistency a while back I aint jumping thru no more hoops if the final PTS doesn't reflect the changes I am looking for or at least still give me option to play the way I want even with some adapting then ill hodor on a different game.

Believe me when the first dragonhold PTS dropped I was livid also ranting this is bs wtf are they doing after a few weeks passed and now my mindset is this.

If they are going to do this route where their gona knee jerk balance nerf buff nerf buff because they cant find center mass and compromise to meet in the middle then ill drop this heap like the wet turd it has become till they decide to change correction *IF* they decide to change

Granted a lot of folks have different ideas of what is considered to be balanced and not all of us are going to agree but I think most can agree this knee jerk balance of nerf buff nerf don't solve ***.

I personally used to log on to enjoy my self and have fun but when the PTS notes that I read now just make me stress out and the enjoyment of looking forward playing the game in the future is gone then I know in my heart it aint worth it anymore time for a break whether it be a few months or a few years.

zaria · September 2019

Its an skill issue, same as not wiping on the first trash in wayrest 1. Did not say it was an high skill issue.
Yes its an bit weird, I thought Giliam was good.

However its kind of self correcting, this will impact the bottomline and get the upper management to react and from user reactions it was not the low quality of Q4 DLC but the combat changes so they have an target and an solution.
combat team has to fix this and get revenue up to Q2 2019 or get replaced.
Next team might be worse however.

Sylvermynx · September 2019

zaria wrote: »

Its an skill issue, same as not wiping on the first trash in wayrest 1. Did not say it was an high skill issue.
Yes its an bit weird, I thought Giliam was good.

Eh, well.... he might be good from a particular angle. That doesn't mean he has a clue overall you know.

Ingel_Riday · September 2019

Harsh title, but I agree with a goodly number of your points.

Being told that this is just a temporary adjustment while the "big class audit and changes" are fermenting and to just ride it out feels off. For all I know, my character is going to suck for at least a year, perhaps progressively more-so as they nerf the spammable / light weave meta next (molten whip is too effective compared to class dot and AOE damage. Decreasing its damage by 63% and increasing its magicka cost by 35%. See this finger, player_name. Yeah. UH! GANGSTA!) and then the next meta after that. But hey, keep up that hope... because all of these nerfs are just temporary adjustments while we... work... on the big class audit? We're not going to show you it, but it's real and we're working on it. Every class should have an identity and each sub-class a niche, but what are those identities officially and what are those niches? Good question. We're working on it. Patience.

I'll build a side character and goof around with someone not nerfed because I do very much enjoy this game's writing and sense of humor (top notch quality), but when they cripple direct damage spammables in Update 25 to bring them in line with crippled dots... I think I'm just going to quit for a while. I spend too much on the crown store anyway and I have a big gaming backlog. That big audit? I can come back when it's done and they're done cutting the tall grass, but I hope it doesn't come to that. I'd miss the storylines and all the great recurring characters. I'd especially miss my dear Stibbons.

GlorphNoldorin · September 2019

Its a skill issue alright. ZOS dont have it when it comes to managing their game

BigBragg · September 2019

This whole charade does a great job of draining the fun out of the game. Fortunately there are other things to do with my time and money.

SoLooney · September 2019

I feel like the entire combat is just Wheeler and Gilliam. Sad part is, Gilliam played this game quite extensively before he got hired by zos. I honestly thought Gilliam would be the saving grace by showing zos that huge changes all in one patch is not the way to go, boy were we wrong

Like OP says, I doubt they are testing anything internally and just throw a number out there and if it sounds good, they stick with it

It feels like nothing gets tested, reason for extreme buffs or nerfs are not there, and most importantly, it seems like they do not listen to the feedback. What is the point of a pts?

You manage this game for your customer base, aka all the millions of players who paid and many more who subscribe and purchase crowns.

Many of us love this game to death, I know I did, it's just a shame how poorly balanced combat is.

This game could have been the best mmo but guess not

Korah_Eaglecry · September 2019

SoLooney wrote: »

I feel like the entire combat is just Wheeler and Gilliam. Sad part is, Gilliam played this game quite extensively before he got hired by zos. I honestly thought Gilliam would be the saving grace by showing zos that huge changes all in one patch is not the way to go, boy were we wrong

Like OP says, I doubt they are testing anything internally and just throw a number out there and if it sounds good, they stick with it

It feels like nothing gets tested, reason for extreme buffs or nerfs are not there, and most importantly, it seems like they do not listen to the feedback. What is the point of a pts?

You manage this game for your customer base, aka all the millions of players who paid and many more who subscribe and purchase crowns.

Many of us love this game to death, I know I did, it's just a shame how poorly balanced combat is.

This game could have been the best mmo but guess not

Gilliam is a cog in the machine. He has no real power over what is decided upon when the big honchos weigh in. Its quite evident at this point that when it comes to the games balance they have no overall direction. Theyre simply spitting in the wind. Probably because this whole thing is not that important to the upper management. They have other things to worry about like Season of ___________ storylines, artwork assets, crown store additions, crown crate revenues etc.

In my experience when something like balance passes seem to have no direction its because it doesnt have the attention of those who make the final decisions. And its often because their attention and care is elsewhere.

Jaraal · September 2019

zaria wrote: »

this will impact the bottomline and get the upper management to react

Ysbriel · September 2019

zaria wrote: »

Its an skill issue, same as not wiping on the first trash in wayrest 1. Did not say it was an high skill issue.
Yes its an bit weird, I thought Giliam was good.

However its kind of self correcting, this will impact the bottomline and get the upper management to react and from user reactions it was not the low quality of Q4 DLC but the combat changes so they have an target and an solution.
combat team has to fix this and get revenue up to Q2 2019 or get replaced.
Next team might be worse however.

Yup its all about the quarterly revenue.

Ingel_Riday · September 2019

Since I can't think of another topic to post this in, I'll just say it here:

I think the thing that most surprised me when I came back after a brief lull of "logging in daily for the reward and logging off" was that somehow entropy and soul trap had become damage abilities instead of utility spells. I had always understood entropy to be a skill that magicka nightblades used to fill in a gap in their class set. It gave major sorcery and then either health or magicka per hit depending on morph. That... was... it. The major focus. Soul trap filled soul gems so you could recharge weapons or ressurect people.

When did the game balancing decide they should be high damage dots? Why are utility spells becoming damage spells too!? Why are you nerfing EVERY SINGLE DOT IN THE GAME instead of just returning these back to situational utility spells so that dragonknights and sorcerers go back to molten armaments / critical surge and people only slot soul trap when they need to fill soul gems? What is going on over there?

It doesn't make any sense to me whatsoever. Never did. I remember reading Altcast builds for damage dealers recently, seeing soul trap on multiple builds, and staring dumbfounded. "When the hell did this become a thing? Did they reduce weapon charges that much?!" Hahaha!

Jaraal · September 2019

Ingel_Riday wrote: »

When did the game balancing decide they should be high damage dots? Why are utility spells becoming damage spells too!?

You must not have gotten the memo.

They intend to homogenize all classes and strip class identity so that everybody can do everything at any time. That's why they are nerfing class abilities and buffing global skills that every character has access to.

We will all be the same character..... but with different outfits and particle effects.

idk · September 2019

I think we all have a degree of frustration. Though if it is boiling over I suggest taking a step back. This is just a game after all.

FierceSam · September 2019

Jaraal wrote: »

Ingel_Riday wrote: »

When did the game balancing decide they should be high damage dots? Why are utility spells becoming damage spells too!?

You must not have gotten the memo.

They intend to homogenize all classes and strip class identity so that everybody can do everything at any time. That's why they are nerfing class abilities and buffing global skills that every character has access to.

We will all be the same character..... but with different outfits and particle effects.

I disagree. They appear to intend to give each class its own clear identity based on where they derive their ‘power’ from and how they might be played. So a DK should feel very different to a Templar.

They do appear to intend to homogenise skills and abilities, so each class’s spammables, DoTs etc have a similar power/damage and cost. This is a clear reaction to PvP to try to ensure that all classes are equal and that what allows a player to win a PvP fight is player ability rather than class skills. That seems to be a good thing.

They also appear to want characters to slot more class skills than global ones. This would help make builds less homogenised as you would move away from every Stam build featuring the same 4 or 5 Bow/Fighters Guild/Alliance skills no matter which class its was. So a Stamplar should be as powerful and effective as a Stam Warden, but they might play in very different ways.

Separate to this they also appear to want to reduce the overall damage a character can do. Which when you have a pile of players and streamers all doing 80+ DPS and laughing that this is “so broken” and saying that the best tactic for all mechanics is simply to burn through them, also seems like a sane objective. Whether the actions they are taking is the right way to do this is a different thing.

The way I would judge it will be to ask

In PvE is it still possible for skilled groups/players to do all the content?

In PvP are fights decided more by player skill than meta build?

Zacuel · September 2019

Heehee... Hee. Turd.

MajBludd · September 2019

@Tandor how can you not notice them?

EmEm_Oh · September 2019

It appears as if ZOS could be getting ready to integrate the CP system everywhere Q1 2020, which would explain all the reductions in dmg across so many skills and classes.

Non-CP will eventually fade away as all of us will, at that time, rely strictly on our CP management for specific dmg and heals.

Suggestion for Cyro would be having CP100-300 campaigns, CP300-500, and so forth. Players could enter any CP campaign, but not expect sympathy if they fall to a 810 when they are CP100.

The good news could be that CP is not going away, and ZOS is trying to level everything before it is official.

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO · September 2019

its so funny...to see how many people cri on the forums expecting stuff to change

Jaraal · October 2019

EmEm_Oh wrote: »

The good news could be that CP is not going away, and ZOS is trying to level everything before it is official.

If CP goes away, then somebody who's played 5,000 hours will not be any stronger than a newb who started yesterday, with the current level scaling. And if they get rid of level scaling, then they will have to go back to pre-One Tamriel, where some zones are tougher than others, and exclude low lvl players from anything but starter zones. And they will never go back to that.

Raideen · October 2019

idk wrote: »

I think we all have a degree of frustration. Though if it is boiling over I suggest taking a step back. This is just a game after all.

That is not your call to make.

TheShadowScout · October 2019

Wing wrote: »

ZOS, nobody wants to play a TURD for years while you "figure it out"

...strange, I kinda figured out how to play anything without feeling like a turd... maybe its just you?

Wing wrote: »

finish the classes in house, show us on the pts, use the feedback, come back and show us, reiterate till we all like it...

...and have the whole game shut down because profits are not coming in as fast as the suits in charge want them to?
Nah.
I mean, yeah, I too would like the good old days where games were only released after extensive playtesting and complete finishing everything, so that there never were and post-release rebalancings and the customer did not play "beta-tester" for much of their gaming... but those days are gone and games these days are too much of an investment for them to ever come back.

Still, -everything- is playable without getting turdy, even though some may at times be more or less effective then others... but as things change, that too changes.
I can deal with it.
Especially since I know ranting against iot will not be likely to change things...

GrimTheReaper45 · October 2019

while a agree with everything here, rich is the creative director. Not the right person to get mad at. His teams are opposite departments of combat

Vanos444 · October 2019

Based on the title,
I would say, they will figure it out once ESO 2 is released. By then we milk them with 🍯.

ZarkingFrued · October 2019

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO wrote: »

its so funny...to see how many people cri on the forums expecting stuff to change

You're so edgy

Mr_Walker · October 2019

Ingel_Riday wrote: »

Being told that this is just a temporary adjustment while the "big class audit and changes" are fermenting and to just ride it out feels off.

Of course it feels off. That's because you would do an audit BEFORE you make major changes, not AFTER.

kargen27 · October 2019

Uryel · October 2019

I've lost all hope for "balancing" ever since Bosmers got their stealth ripped from them after 25 years of "wood elves are stealthy" on the false pretense that "people were having trouble figuring the differences between Khajiits and Bosmers".

That's the worst load of bulldung I've read in any MMO whatsoever in almost 20 years playing them. But hey, PvP lead now turned combat team didn't want sneaky Bosmers in PvP, so he butchered them. There is one PvP zone in the game, and what, 20 or so PvE zones, but hey, PvP rules.

OP is right, though, turning my character into a turd made me not want to play her, and in turn I've lost most interest in the game. And in spending money on it.

Kagukan · October 2019

Fun fact: You really can polish a turd. They did it on MythBusters.

KappaKid83 · October 2019

I agree wholeheartedly here. Hit the reset button, start from the bottom up and go from there. Unfortunately the business model is quarterly DLC with yearly chapters and the money speaks to them so they will not change in the short term. Maybe in the long term but at what cost? At that point a lot of us will be onto something else and not around to see the improvements and then maybe the server actually does die and the game goes extinct(highly unlikely I know but still could be worst case scenario)

Wing · October 2019

KappaKid83 wrote: »

I agree wholeheartedly here. Hit the reset button, start from the bottom up and go from there. Unfortunately the business model is quarterly DLC with yearly chapters and the money speaks to them so they will not change in the short term. Maybe in the long term but at what cost? At that point a lot of us will be onto something else and not around to see the improvements and then maybe the server actually does die and the game goes extinct(highly unlikely I know but still could be worst case scenario)

quarterly DLC and balance changes don't have to go hand in hand (nor should they)

because they have tied the two together a lot of the time DLC is overshadowed by complaints of whatever mechanic they have screwed up that update.

all of shacklebreaker NOBODY was talking about the content, they were talking about dots, and that balance change cast the entire DLC in a negative light.

if ZOS adopted the mentality of constant incremental patches, or used the PTS to test them. or if they were going to do something big, once again use the PTS and iterate on it for as long as is necessary with community feedback then launch when its ready, we would probably not have this issue.

however they do these big changes, and than only have the DLC launch point as a window, they CANNOT iterate or respond correctly to feedback because they have chosen to box themselves into tiny windows.

so instead of good changes, or little adjustments we literally get text that is:

"we will continue working on this ability’s visual and gameplay elements for a future update"

so its not done, not finished, but F it no time, launch it.