Tank in PvP

Grandesdar · October 2019

I'm curious about the tanking role in PvP. I see some people claim they are all useless, there is not much discussion going on about them, and honestly, I don't even know why a tank would be preferred in PvP. There are some sets that seem good on paper like Vanguard's Challenge, but with the HA meta going on and much sustainable self heals, is that why tanks aren't worth bringing to BGs or Cyrodiil?

Bashev · October 2019

Grandesdar wrote: »

I'm curious about the tanking role in PvP. I see some people claim they are all useless, there is not much discussion going on about them, and honestly, I don't even know what a tank would be preferred in PvP. There are some sets that seem good on paper like Vanguard's Challenge, but with the HA meta going on and much sustainable self heals, is that why tanks aren't worth bringing to BGs or Cyrodiil?

Tanks could be useful in BGs in all modes except deathmatch. In Cyro you can taunt ppl to attack you and then a group to kill them but for that you need a group.

A tank in PvP should debuff and CC Then soak damage.

NBrookus · October 2019

Many people build tanky now. What with tons of aoe damage and lag and skills with very high damage, tankiness is more and more essential.

Guard tanks can be useful in a duo.

There are a couple of solo tanks that are very good at "taunting" enemy players and use this to reshape an engagement. Whether or not this is useful depends on if you allies take advantage of it. If not, they are just walking ultimate generators.

Effective organized groups don't use pure tanks. Without collision, what pure tanks can actually do for a group is limited. So most "tanks" are support builds.

Most PVP "tanks" don't do any of that^. They just die slowly and are otherwise a speedbump you can walk around because they can't do anything to you.

Freakin_Hytte · October 2019

The best tanks in cyro are more like supports. They are hard to kill and focus on buffing your group and debuffing enemy players. I have a few awesome support tanks in my PvP guild and they can really turn fights to our advantage through their buffing/debuffing and they usually do some healing as well.

p00tx · October 2019

The problem is, almost everyone is a tank to some degree or another in Cyrodil. Even the self proclaimed 1vXer gods are rolling stam tanks now, but with high burst dmg. That being said, a tank who can do nothing except not die is pretty useless, considering most other players can already do that while also doing some at least negligible dmg or healing. You just have to figure out how to use your skills to support your team in some way while you're staying alive.

KillsAllElves · October 2019

p00tx wrote: »

The problem is, almost everyone is a tank to some degree or another in Cyrodil. Even the self proclaimed 1vXer gods are rolling stam tanks now, but with high burst dmg. That being said, a tank who can do nothing except not die is pretty useless, considering most other players can already do that while also doing some at least negligible dmg or healing. You just have to figure out how to use your skills to support your team in some way while you're staying alive.

What your comment states is the reality of cyrodiil. This causes a massive lopsided unbalanced mess of a game mode.
Sadly nothing will be done about this fake-me-out tank meta.

AcadianPaladin · October 2019

The only reason I pvp is to briefly get a few alliance skills on my pve builds. My mages and archers do okay (don't do melee) by holding our nose, running with a keep/resource capturing group, stacking on the crown and trying to help/survive. I learned very early that my pve tank, while nearly unkillable in pve is totally worthless in pvp. Alliance skills for my pve tank were gained 100% by repairing keeps after I figured out he dies easily and (of course) does no damage in pvp. Ymmv.

JumpmanLane · October 2019

Tanks in Cyro? I Fossilize ‘em and laugh and run right by ‘em. I don’t even bother to heavy attack ‘em. My sustain is aight.

Now, if the dummy act like he CAN’T be killed, I’ll DOT ‘em up and see what’s up. If he takes off running, I’ll chase him and kill him and tbag him. Tank fail!

bakthi · October 2019

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

The only reason I pvp is to briefly get a few alliance skills on my pve builds. My mages and archers do okay (don't do melee) by holding our nose, running with a keep/resource capturing group, stacking on the crown and trying to help/survive. I learned very early that my pve tank, while nearly unkillable in pve is totally worthless in pvp. Alliance skills for my pve tank were gained 100% by repairing keeps after I figured out he dies easily and (of course) does no damage in pvp. Ymmv.

I guess this is what I'll probably do in order to get my tanks Barrier. I've done a few Battlegrounds, and not felt completely worthless on the non-Deathmatch ones, but somehow getting Support to 6 on a tank feels like way more of a grind than getting Undaunted to 9. Maybe because the latter is obtained by doing the thing tanks are for.

Mariusghost84 · October 2019

bakthi wrote: »

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

The only reason I pvp is to briefly get a few alliance skills on my pve builds. My mages and archers do okay (don't do melee) by holding our nose, running with a keep/resource capturing group, stacking on the crown and trying to help/survive. I learned very early that my pve tank, while nearly unkillable in pve is totally worthless in pvp. Alliance skills for my pve tank were gained 100% by repairing keeps after I figured out he dies easily and (of course) does no damage in pvp. Ymmv.

I guess this is what I'll probably do in order to get my tanks Barrier. I've done a few Battlegrounds, and not felt completely worthless on the non-Deathmatch ones, but somehow getting Support to 6 on a tank feels like way more of a grind than getting Undaunted to 9. Maybe because the latter is obtained by doing the thing tanks are for.

Thats why i started out with pvp. Just for transmute crystals, and vigor + caltrops. Fastforward a year or so and PVP is the only thing i do anymore. Its THAT fun. Might be a good idea to just buy the skillines. You are risking of getting addicted to pvp!

AcadianPaladin · October 2019

bakthi wrote: »

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

The only reason I pvp is to briefly get a few alliance skills on my pve builds. My mages and archers do okay (don't do melee) by holding our nose, running with a keep/resource capturing group, stacking on the crown and trying to help/survive. I learned very early that my pve tank, while nearly unkillable in pve is totally worthless in pvp. Alliance skills for my pve tank were gained 100% by repairing keeps after I figured out he dies easily and (of course) does no damage in pvp. Ymmv.

I guess this is what I'll probably do in order to get my tanks Barrier. I've done a few Battlegrounds, and not felt completely worthless on the non-Deathmatch ones, but somehow getting Support to 6 on a tank feels like way more of a grind than getting Undaunted to 9. Maybe because the latter is obtained by doing the thing tanks are for.

Yeah, repairing walls/doors during an double ap event is not bad and saves a lot of frustration. I've no interest in trying to learn or actually 'git gud' in pvp.

Even for solo pve I run my tank as a 'pure main tank'. I'm actually just fine with questing/soloing very slowly but very safely as a tank. Just a different mindset that each mudcrab gets its dedicated 6 hits while the others wait their turn in my 'Talons' pen. Lol.

NordSwordnBoard · October 2019

Like PvE, you're playing tank for a group not yourself so much.

Having a tanky build that does little damage but can spam roots/snares/immobilization is still useful when properly applied. Being able to rezz people under oils without dying yourself helps. Spearheading an attack wearing Thurvokun with area denial skills and applying aoe debuffs is useful for breaking the enemy line. Set the siege on fire as they shoot it. Root the healers, distract them from their jobs. You can do this solo, but being in a group and communicating will greatly improve the effectiveness of your role. The smaller the group, the greater the need to compliment the other group members and not be redundant (One person has defile poisons, so the other switches to cost increase poisons to add more debuffs).

Whether tanky or just fast, I don't know how many times I've seen a defending group overly focus the one guy who just got past them instead of the 20 guys in front of them.

NBrookus · October 2019

For you PVE tanks: what you want in a PVE tank is very different than in PVP. If you just want your AR skills, it's not worth the effort when you can put on some crafted impen gear and go to Cyro in a more balanced build. Useful things for Cyro noobs/transients that generate AP is operating defensive siege (meatbags, scattershots, oil), repairing after the siege, Radiating Regen and Cleanse spam, orbs, dropping skills with synergies like Talons and Liquid Lightning, and AOE debuffs like Shalk and Caltrops and ice wall.

Please do NOT randomly yank people around in battle. Chain pulling someone out of an ally's ult combo is not ever helpful. (Unless you are the enemy doing it, in which case, thanks for pulling me out of that negate/storm/permafrost bomb.) Save any ranged CC like that for helping a player that is getting focused or near death.

NordSwordnBoard wrote: »

Whether tanky or just fast, I don't know how many times I've seen a defending group overly focus the one guy who just got past them instead of the 20 guys in front of them.

Even a squishy gankblade can fill that role. Lately it's been hard to go outside in a keep defense and pick off the edges because people DO chase. This is good play for the attackers, they are peeling for their allies. But if you are a melee character a breach defense is super boring.

bakthi · October 2019

Mariusghost84 wrote: »

bakthi wrote: »

AcadianPaladin wrote: »

The only reason I pvp is to briefly get a few alliance skills on my pve builds. My mages and archers do okay (don't do melee) by holding our nose, running with a keep/resource capturing group, stacking on the crown and trying to help/survive. I learned very early that my pve tank, while nearly unkillable in pve is totally worthless in pvp. Alliance skills for my pve tank were gained 100% by repairing keeps after I figured out he dies easily and (of course) does no damage in pvp. Ymmv.

I guess this is what I'll probably do in order to get my tanks Barrier. I've done a few Battlegrounds, and not felt completely worthless on the non-Deathmatch ones, but somehow getting Support to 6 on a tank feels like way more of a grind than getting Undaunted to 9. Maybe because the latter is obtained by doing the thing tanks are for.

Thats why i started out with pvp. Just for transmute crystals, and vigor + caltrops. Fastforward a year or so and PVP is the only thing i do anymore. Its THAT fun. Might be a good idea to just buy the skillines. You are risking of getting addicted to pvp!

I'm really not. Glad you're enjoying it; I am in a PvP guild, and I do go to Cyro semi-regularly (edit: as a healer). It is enjoyable for periods of time. But I will always be a turn-based RPG fan who happens to be playing this particular online game with other people.

Grandesdar · October 2019

So what type of debuffs and buffs do you prefer in a pvp tank? Like a curse to slow down enemy's heals, or lowering their resists and damage etc?

Urzigurumash · October 2019

Grandesdar wrote: »

So what type of debuffs and buffs do you prefer in a pvp tank? Like a curse to slow down enemy's heals, or lowering their resists and damage etc?

Defile is the best one, and Maim is good too. There's no doubt, if you're trying to debuff as a tank in PvP, Thurvokun is the best monster set. Durok's used to be really strong, it probably still is. Many DDs provide their own Fracture/Breach but of course these are indispensable. You should also have at least one stun and one immobilization.

I'm not sure if running Crusher and/or Weakening enchants ala PvE is worth it over Poisons. Probably?

I've put together an impen set of Call of the Undertaker but I haven't tried it yet. That same debuff is available from Blood Altar, but Call of the Undertaker's debuff should be more mobile.

On that subject however, I advise a few pieces of sturdy, between 2-4, with 40-60 in the Crit Resist CP.

NBrookus · October 2019

Grandesdar wrote: »

So what type of debuffs and buffs do you prefer in a pvp tank? Like a curse to slow down enemy's heals, or lowering their resists and damage etc?

Debuffs: Defile, Maim, Vulnerability, aoe Fracture/Breach
Buffs: Purge, Heals, Protection, Courage, Mending

Ultimates: Shifting Standard, Nova, Bolstering Darkness, Permafrost, Negate, Colossus
Other useful things: Bone Shield, Blood Alter, Healthy Offering, Circle of Protection, Orbs, Caltrops, Shalk

If you are pug tanking, dropping synergies that people can pick up for damage is helpful. Either reapply when you see someone pop the synergy or drop it every ~3 seconds. Talons is a great one for this, and Choking Talons also applies Minor Maim. Nova and Shifting Standard synergies are absolutely devastating if used well.

umagon · October 2019

Grandesdar wrote: »

I'm curious about the tanking role in PvP. I see some people claim they are all useless, there is not much discussion going on about them, and honestly, I don't even know why a tank would be preferred in PvP. There are some sets that seem good on paper like Vanguard's Challenge, but with the HA meta going on and much sustainable self heals, is that why tanks aren't worth bringing to BGs or Cyrodiil?

The role isn’t clearly defined by zos, as in what they consider to be “pvp tank”, and what it should bring to the battle space. You can run detrimental buffs and in cyrodiil you can burn and use siege weapons to a slightly better degree than other roles. In general, you want make your presence to be detrimental to hostile players’ intentions as much as possible.

For example, as a tank it’s easier to burn rams that have a lot of hostile players around them. They have engage you in order to make you stop no matter if it is trying to kill your just interrupting you. Most of the time they will have to get close; which opens them up to getting oil poured on them and hit with friendly siege.

Another example is siege placement in forts that your allies are trying to take. Because you are the tank a good 8/10 times you can rush the front door if it goes down and setup a lighting ballista, or catapult under the stairs and start bombarding the back flag area. Due to players tendency to stand on that back flag and some groups who try to use it as point of defense by waiting for players to rush in to the back then bombing them; you can slow down those actions or pull them out of stealth. Which allows your allies to capitalize on the moment.

The third example is the blind fire trebuchet strategy. Few know how to do this well but when you learn how; it can be very beneficial to ally groups who are held up in the inner part of fort. Due to your tankness if you want to call it that you can stay on the wall much easier than most while court yard is filled with hostiles.

And there are points on or near the tower sections of the fort where you can hit the front flag, and the door area close to the back flag. If you time things right hostile enemies can be hit with a trebuchet as they enter the inner fort which can help the group inside clear them out.

If they try to bomb you can get them out of stealth, or pull bombers out of the group to less the impact. You can stall the flag to give allies more time to respond. Or get on the flag to start it to flip which forces hostiles on that point opening them up to attack from allies. You can pull problematic hostiles into groups of allies for easy disposal. Or in oil baths for some splash splash fun time. There are many other examples.

tldr: Tanks can’t play and think like they are John Wick; they have to play and think like they are Robert McCall form the equalizer. And strategize to get environmental kills.

hakan · October 2019

Most people are very tanky so not sure if you want to be their tank since they are tanky on their own anyway.

what i dont understand is how people are so tanky but also sustainable and deal massive damage in cyrodiil.

i wear impen and to me, aside from impen and wellfit there arent any traits worth using.

Iskiab · October 2019

You can actually translate a lot of your PvE tanking skills to PvP.

A lot of the players who play PvE tanks with 3 dps who tank and heal dungeons from the tanking spot make effective PvP tanks and they have similar setups.

Where they’re really different is trial tanking. You aren’t tanky unless you you’re doing high self healing and tanky, being tanky alone won’t get you far.

In pvp everyone’s a bit of a dps, tank and healer. Playing a tank role just means sacrificing damage for group utility and buffs/debuffs. Shifting standard would be a great example of a PvP tank ability.

NBrookus · October 2019

hakan wrote: »

what i dont understand is how people are so tanky but also sustainable and deal massive damage in cyrodiil.

A lot of the time people really aren't that tanky, it's that their enemies aren't working together and are actively getting in each others' way. A group of uncoordinated people beating on you, that aren't timing their cc's and damage, is sometimes much easier to tank -- even on a squishy character -- than a single well-built enemy focusing you with properly timed burst combos. And if you can string your opponents out into a series of smaller engagements, you really aren't tanking that many people at once. Example: every stam sorc running around a resource tower. The chased is in control of that fight, not the chasers.

Another option is simply to tank your opponent until they run themselves out of resources and then are relatively helpless to defend against your attacks. It doesn't matter if their attacks do 2k less damage each than if they built more aggressively if their opponent is sitting there unable to cc break or heal.

Much has been written about mitigating damage builds so I won't repeat any of it, but the very best damage mitigation is not getting hit in the first place. Appropriately and consistently using line of sight, cloak, dodge and speed to avoid damage will always be a lot tankier than any set bonus or stat.

GlorphNoldorin · October 2019

I dont see many true tanks pc NA. Maybe a handful here and there. They mostly play in groups of varying sizes during peak periods and try to keep people occupied while the group dps attack.

There are alot of small groups that run very tanky with moderate damage. So many of these are dk's. Once the new patch drops I expect there will be a dk explosion. Boring

russelmmendoza · October 2019

Grandesdar wrote: »

I'm curious about the tanking role in PvP. I see some people claim they are all useless, there is not much discussion going on about them, and honestly, I don't even know why a tank would be preferred in PvP. There are some sets that seem good on paper like Vanguard's Challenge, but with the HA meta going on and much sustainable self heals, is that why tanks aren't worth bringing to BGs or Cyrodiil?

Tanks would be great in pvp if berserker strike, berserker rage or onslaught would only cost 10 ultimate.