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Do something with the justice system.
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BoloBoffin✭✭✭✭✭My.idea was that Enforcers don't gank anyone, but can initiate a duel with the thief. The thief is then free to accept, flee, or forfeit to an NPC guard. If the Enforcer wins the duel, they get a redeemable writ for gold at the Enforcer base (not fencable items). If the thief wins the duel, they have immunity from forced duels for ten minutes. If the thief flees, the Enforcer can pursue for 30 seconds.The thief has escaped when not killed and/or outside the city limits. Footpads count as escaping as well. Plus, the thief is only eligible for forced duels when the bounty is in the top tier of notoriety.Been there, got the Molag Bal polymorph.0 -
barney2525✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I got 146 (and counting) 'get out of 500 in bounty' scrolls stacked up as it is. Not to mention the higher priced ones.
What's the Law going to do against me when I can wipe the crime seconds after I commit it?
Edited by barney2525 on October 15, 2019 3:09PM2 -
Watchdog✭✭✭✭✭
✭BoloBoffin wrote: »My.idea was that Enforcers don't gank anyone, but can initiate a duel with the thief. The thief is then free to accept, flee, or forfeit to an NPC guard. If the Enforcer wins the duel, they get a redeemable writ for gold at the Enforcer base (not fencable items). If the thief wins the duel, they have immunity from forced duels for ten minutes. If the thief flees, the Enforcer can pursue for 30 seconds.The thief has escaped when not killed and/or outside the city limits. Footpads count as escaping as well. Plus, the thief is only eligible for forced duels when the bounty is in the top tier of notoriety.
No, thanks.
I am not interested in PvP at all. Especially not while engaged in PvE activities.
Can you even imagine how much of a pain in the rear end would the Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood DLC's become? The so called "Enforcers" stalking around all known thieving/murder quest spots, giving me a choice of a duel, fleeing while flagged for all the PvP CC skills (effectively accepting the duel upon refusing it anyway), or being automatically caught by an NPC guard?
Seriously, no, thanks.Member of Alith Legion: https://www.alithlegion.com10 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »But also because the vast majority of PVEers would prefer not to have sudden PVP in the middle of their PVE. And the TG/DB activites are super easy for PVP players to stalk TG/DB players. Just sit on the Anvil docks and watch the murders, or sit on the wayshrine near the Sanctuary and wait for someone to port in with a bounty. Or spot someone stealing and stalk them until they screw up.
And I can just imagine 2 or 3 stealthed Nightblade 'Enforcers' camped on the approach to every Outlaw Refuge.
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DaveMoeDee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭BoloBoffin wrote: »My.idea was that Enforcers don't gank anyone, but can initiate a duel with the thief. The thief is then free to accept, flee, or forfeit to an NPC guard. If the Enforcer wins the duel, they get a redeemable writ for gold at the Enforcer base (not fencable items). If the thief wins the duel, they have immunity from forced duels for ten minutes. If the thief flees, the Enforcer can pursue for 30 seconds.The thief has escaped when not killed and/or outside the city limits. Footpads count as escaping as well. Plus, the thief is only eligible for forced duels when the bounty is in the top tier of notoriety.
Forced PvP is a non-starter.
You also fail to put a reward for the thief from dueling. Regardless, rewards sounds like easy farming. Just find a way to get bounty by a wayshrine and farm with a friend.2 -
Panthermic✭✭✭How about adding the opportunity to guards to instant kill everyone who start dueling in cities/towns?6
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SirAxen✭✭✭✭✭I love ESO, but there are many systems already in place they should flesh out more. Justice is a big one, for sure. One of my biggest gripes about ESO is how they introduce something then seemingly abandoned it beyond bug fixes. I was shocked when they added new functionality to housing a few updates back, that was the exception.
edit: Though I guess making existing systems better doesn't sell boxes.Edited by SirAxen on October 16, 2019 4:11PM0 -
darthgummibear_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Can we stop arguing about some non-existent pvp system and maybe put forth suggestions to improve the justice system as is?2 -
TheShadowScout✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Been there, done that...darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »Can we stop arguing about some non-existent pvp system and maybe put forth suggestions to improve the justice system as is?
TheShadowScout wrote: »
Same. But that should come as no suprise, considering...darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »I wish there was more to it than just avoiding the guards...
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/384538/for-great-justice/p1
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darthgummibear_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭TheShadowScout wrote: »
Been there, done that...darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »Can we stop arguing about some non-existent pvp system and maybe put forth suggestions to improve the justice system as is?TheShadowScout wrote: »
Same. But that should come as no suprise, considering...darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »I wish there was more to it than just avoiding the guards...
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/384538/for-great-justice/p1
Those are some really good ideas. The whole bounty-hunter-esque part of that alone would be a complete game-changer.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »starkerealm wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »The PVP addition to the Justice System got nixed because ZOS didnt want it exploited...
But also because the vast majority of PVEers would prefer not to have sudden PVP in the middle of their PVE. And the TG/DB activites are super easy for PVP players to stalk TG/DB players. Just sit on the Anvil docks and watch the murders, or sit on the wayshrine near the Sanctuary and wait for someone to port in with a bounty. Or spot someone stealing and stalk them until they screw up.
Personally, I'm a PVPer, and even I prefer to not have sudden PVP in the middle of my PVE activities in otherwise PVE zones.
I would like it if ZOS made some of the base game guards have those stealth suppression circles. That added a fun element of timing and prevented some of the egregious ability to stack stealth bonuses from gear to evade guards.
The problem with the proposed system was always that outlaws flagged themselves, potentially by accident.
If you had skill lines for Outlaw and Enforcer, and then had to commit a skill point to them to unlock PvP for that faction, that would a long way towards gating the system from accidentally getting murdered by another player because you accidentally hoovered up something by the writ turning.
I'm less worried about accidentally getting hit by an Enforcer for a minor bounty, and more concerned by how easy it is to find and stalk players who are doing Thieves Guild and Dark Brotherhood content, and just wait for them to make a mistake and *gank*.
If players could do all current justice system content without needing the Outlaw skill line at all, i.e. it was separate and not a requirement for stealing, TG, or DB content, then I'd be more okay with it.
True. The original idea was rife with means to grief players. The only way I have seen a system where PvP could occur in a PvE world and people could "opt out" was where the PvP people were placed into a difference instance from PvE making it impossible to even attempt to attack a player not flagged for PvP.
Zos has steered away from that since just before the game launched because they found it to challenging to devise a workable system. Their original idea was to permit players to flag themselves for RP (and probably other things) and the game would try to put them into the same instance with like minded people.0 -
darthgummibear_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭I wish I could remove posts. I didn't want my thread to get hijacked by a constant discussion about a pvp system that doesn't exist.2 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭PVE and PVP are uneasy bedfellows. Perhaps the more palatable approach is from an RP standpoint, not a PVP one. For example:
If the player criminal has a bounty for murder, they can be attacker by another player and killed, any contraband from their inventory is removed, and they lose the use of the Blade of Woe for some period of time. Once attacked, the player murderer can try to escape or they can fight back and kill the enforcer player, retaining any ill-gotten lot they may have.
If the player criminal has a bounty for theft, they can be attacked by another player and once they reach 1 health, the criminal bounty is cleared and stolen items removed from their inventory. Again, the player criminal can run away. Or, they can fight back and kill the enforcer player. There is no self-defense penalty.
Enforcer players do not get gold or items from the criminal players they accost. They could maybe get a skill line with non-combat perks like increased stealth detection, and their own repeatable bounty quests with separate rewards.
QoL improvements for criminal players:
If you have a bounty, you can stealth, invis pot, cloak around other players
You can wayshrine transit from one Refuge to another once inside (to help avoid any camping)
Enforcer players have a glow around them so they can be identified (to help reduce stalking)
None of this applies in IC, BGs or Cyro, of course. This would be more like PVP-lite, where it's a hide and seek or chase game, not a source of revenue. And since the criminal's bounty is cleared if killed/dropped to 1 health, they are protected from repeated griefing.
Well if there's anything PVE and PVP agree on it's that they hate RP so I'm sure this will be awful.
1) Why would you lose the BoW? That makes no sense.
2) Accidently steals in crafting area.
Get attacked by 10 players on a crafting toon. Die trying to do crafting dailies. Yeah, I PVP a lot and this isn't PVP by any means and isn't going to make players happy.
3) So they get attacked and instead of dying they lose their bouny? Do you know hard it would be to hit 1 hp unless you force it to? Awful idea.
4) So you don't get gold but you get a skill line no one is going to want to grind out that ZOS would end up just selling and wouldn't have any actual use anyways. Why would anyone participate?
5) You can already stealth, cloak, and invis around other players
"Enforcers" would came said shrines, idea makes 0 sense.
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zParallaxz✭✭✭✭✭I’m not sure what the point of the justice system in ESO is.
It seems very rudimentary and piecemeal. Bounties are assigned in quite a haphazard fashion, are not always clearly telegraphed and can have very variable effects. It would be useful if the whole system was more clearly thought out and coherent. It would be great if it tied in to a more involved Thieves Guild or Dark Brotherhood plot/skill line beyond their respective DLCs.
That said, it’s clear that any kind of player involvement in enforcement would be a bad idea. All the experience of Cyrodiil and Imperial City tells us that players do not like/want a mixed PvP / PvE environment. Having other players be able to kill you and steal your stuff isn’t an enjoyable game dynamic for most players.
You speak for yourself, I would enjoy a scenario where I could do that. I would gladly pay for a dlc option of this if possible. That way not many players who are opted in would be carrying so much equipment on them.0 -
Daedric_NB_187✭✭✭✭✭Funny how a game that came out in 2003 was able to create a bounty system that worked, was open world and was opt in. I guess that game was way more advanced than this one huh?0
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zParallaxz✭✭✭✭✭Dusk_Coven wrote: »This is what makes me suspect that people who keep suggesting it the usual way are just out to try to get the whole game to be pvp instead of actually caring about adding an aspect of the justice system.
I think it's closer to PvP people with the ulterior motive of making a system where they can go out and stomp everyone too new to PvP to have bought their BiS gear and skill lines and revamped their toon into something they don't want to play, some button-mashing clone from an online build.
PvP people like twinks in under-50 BG systematically destroying the prospective PvP newcomer population. Or door campers during an event intended to introduce the IC to more people.
Makes you wonder why they don't want to contend with the existing PvP population, or why people wonder there isn't a better PvP population.
Your complaining about problems literally every person who has even been in PvP, has experienced. It’s not like those same PvPers didn’t experience that for themselves, the only way you learn is if you get killed that many times and then take the time to learn your character and make a build. No one told you new guys to come into pvp with mix max gear.
The best PvPers have experienced it all and have learned how to fight multiples of the same people you just described, other wise known as 1vX. Good players usually don’t get 1vXed, why do you think that is. Don’t get into PvP expecting to gather in large numbers and kill people, while you spam your light attacks from range.0 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭zParallaxz wrote: »I’m not sure what the point of the justice system in ESO is.
It seems very rudimentary and piecemeal. Bounties are assigned in quite a haphazard fashion, are not always clearly telegraphed and can have very variable effects. It would be useful if the whole system was more clearly thought out and coherent. It would be great if it tied in to a more involved Thieves Guild or Dark Brotherhood plot/skill line beyond their respective DLCs.
That said, it’s clear that any kind of player involvement in enforcement would be a bad idea. All the experience of Cyrodiil and Imperial City tells us that players do not like/want a mixed PvP / PvE environment. Having other players be able to kill you and steal your stuff isn’t an enjoyable game dynamic for most players.
You speak for yourself, I would enjoy a scenario where I could do that. I would gladly pay for a dlc option of this if possible. That way not many players who are opted in would be carrying so much equipment on them.
God, Imagine a dlc where it's a smaller Interdiction zone (a battle where 3 forces meet) mix of IC and Cyro. It would be an open world PVE zone with open PVP and small neutral zones of refugees/battle points where you can get quests along with an alliance quest. The Alliance quest could be something where the actual focal points could be instanced and wouldn't be a neutral zone with a storyline where something Daedric happens and this small portion of the 3 Banners war has to help each other stop it while forming an uneasy alliance.0 -
Araneae6537✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I agree with some of OP’s points and suggestions, although some suggestions for punishment seem a bit over-the-top and were perhaps suggested in jest.
In some cases I think it does make sense for a character to have a bounty across alliances — murdering non-combatants for instance I would hope would be condemned officially at least by each faction.
Additional content of allegiances, contacts, heists, assassinations could be fun, especially if we could join only one of several assassin guilds, at least one of which has their own code of honor (not saying they’d be “good guys”, but there are different perspectives and different shades of gray and personally, I always hated the Dark Brotherhood murder-an-innocent thing so never join).
I think it would also make sense for it to be more difficult to escape justice depending on your bounty and what you’re wanted for.
Most of all, just as it’s an option in game already to disable attacking innocents, I would like it if attacking a non-enemy made you attackable by other PCs for a time if they spot you. I risk death and Daedra and everything else to save NPCs across Tamriel— why must I stand by while one is murdered in the city streets?
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Watchdog✭✭✭✭✭
✭Most of all, just as it’s an option in game already to disable attacking innocents, I would like it if attacking a non-enemy made you attackable by other PCs for a time if they spot you. I risk death and Daedra and everything else to save NPCs across Tamriel— why must I stand by while one is murdered in the city streets?
Because ZOS needs to sell Dark Brotherhood DLC to PvE players too, and they won't risk totally alienating those who already have done so by exposing them to non-consensual PvP while doing content clealry marketed as PvE, not PvP.
Also because it would lead to awful griefing by players stalking those doing the PvE questline?
I am sorry, but that is a terrible idea. Remember, you are talking about human beings behind the player characters. And human beings can be very inventive in the making-the-other-players-gaming-time-as-miserable-as-possible department.Member of Alith Legion: https://www.alithlegion.com2 -
Jayman1000✭✭✭✭✭
✭You mean doing something actually interesting and relevant? Blasphemy! You dare try taint the soul of ZOS? futile.0 -
Jayman1000✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Most of all, just as it’s an option in game already to disable attacking innocents, I would like it if attacking a non-enemy made you attackable by other PCs for a time if they spot you. I risk death and Daedra and everything else to save NPCs across Tamriel— why must I stand by while one is murdered in the city streets?
I would LOVE this. But alas, tis but a dream that will never be. Wont ever happen, just forget it.1 -
buttaface✭✭✭✭✭IMO the justice system in ESO, as augmented by TG and DB, is fine for the most part. And even if they capped kills/day, groups of players could merely line up on the enforcer side v thief side, catch and get reward until cap, then switch sides. If folks think people wouldn't go to the trouble of setting this up... someone makes a new bot complaint thread here near daily.
They absolutely would, and whole guilds would "winkwinknudgenudge" do it. Have seen it in other games, and it likely goes on in this one by AP farmers who chain flip things back and forth in Cyrodiil. Don't know for sure that this already goes on, but has in every game with PvP I've ever played, so...
There is already a large augmentation of the justice system available via TG and DB. They need to revisit, up and modernize the rewards from all those many types of quests, starting with the hilariously useless Sithis set. If all those TG/DB quests were updated and rewards tweaked up a bit, IMO the justice system would be about as good as it's going to get.1 -
barney2525✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭zParallaxz wrote: »Dusk_Coven wrote: »This is what makes me suspect that people who keep suggesting it the usual way are just out to try to get the whole game to be pvp instead of actually caring about adding an aspect of the justice system.
I think it's closer to PvP people with the ulterior motive of making a system where they can go out and stomp everyone too new to PvP to have bought their BiS gear and skill lines and revamped their toon into something they don't want to play, some button-mashing clone from an online build.
PvP people like twinks in under-50 BG systematically destroying the prospective PvP newcomer population. Or door campers during an event intended to introduce the IC to more people.
Makes you wonder why they don't want to contend with the existing PvP population, or why people wonder there isn't a better PvP population.
Your complaining about problems literally every person who has even been in PvP, has experienced. It’s not like those same PvPers didn’t experience that for themselves, the only way you learn is if you get killed that many times and then take the time to learn your character and make a build. No one told you new guys to come into pvp with mix max gear.
The best PvPers have experienced it all and have learned how to fight multiples of the same people you just described, other wise known as 1vX. Good players usually don’t get 1vXed, why do you think that is. Don’t get into PvP expecting to gather in large numbers and kill people, while you spam your light attacks from range.
Except this is just a game people play for Fun. No one is Required to play it. It Needs to appeal to a large audience as ' Fun to play '.
And if the majority of the players do Not find being pounded into the ground over and over without any possibility of success or survival ' Fun ', they will quit playing the game rather than suffer through the embarrassment of losing all the time, while trying to figure out how to improve. From the posts I've read from a number of the PvP community, the insults toward those who are new don't help anything. So, many players just quit. And you can call the quitter all the names you want, but it won't matter, because they will be gone, and your population will drop and the game will eventually die.
IMHO
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barney2525✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I agree with some of OP’s points and suggestions, although some suggestions for punishment seem a bit over-the-top and were perhaps suggested in jest.
In some cases I think it does make sense for a character to have a bounty across alliances — murdering non-combatants for instance I would hope would be condemned officially at least by each faction.
Additional content of allegiances, contacts, heists, assassinations could be fun, especially if we could join only one of several assassin guilds, at least one of which has their own code of honor (not saying they’d be “good guys”, but there are different perspectives and different shades of gray and personally, I always hated the Dark Brotherhood murder-an-innocent thing so never join).
I think it would also make sense for it to be more difficult to escape justice depending on your bounty and what you’re wanted for.
Most of all, just as it’s an option in game already to disable attacking innocents, I would like it if attacking a non-enemy made you attackable by other PCs for a time if they spot you. I risk death and Daedra and everything else to save NPCs across Tamriel— why must I stand by while one is murdered in the city streets?
You got it backward.
It is Completely unfair, to have a button you can turn on yourself, that no one else knows about, that allows You to affect their character, but They can not affect yours.
The only way this works is if You have a button that you turn on so that Your character can be killed if the character commits a crime.
You don't get to determine how other characters must be played, and to force them into 'being good' or you can wipe them and take their stuff. You only have dominion over your own characters.
I know where you would park your character. Right in front of the thieves den bulletin board. So you could kill them before they completed materializing.
IMHO 1 -
FlopsyPrince✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Given how easy it is to accidentally click something when trying to interact with an NPC I would be against making this any worse.PC
PS4/PS51 -
darthgummibear_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Enough with debating the pvp crap. That's not what I made this thread for. ALL I WANT IS MORE TO JUSTICE THAN HAVING TO AVOID GUARDS. THAT'S IT. FFS people, stop it with the pvp nonsense.0 -
Tommy_The_Gun✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
... And they all would camp "stealing" spots in groups, waiting for easy pray to Xv1 the poor PvE-er who just wanted to farm some gold / recipes / motives / furnishing plans.starkerealm wrote: »Originally, the plan was for a PvP system. So, players would flag themselves as Enforcers, and could then engage in PvP against players with bounties. They'd loot any contraband off their foes, and then turn that in for rewards. Enforcers would turn contraband in at their base, while outlaws would go to the sewer fences.
There was also a plan for Outlaw Dens out in the wild, that Enforcers could enter and try to obtain contraband. Along the way they'd face normal delve grade foes, and hostile outlaw players. If they succeeded in recovering stolen goods from the den, they could take that back to their base, and turn it in.
The system was scrapped sometime around Orsinium or Hew's Bane, though I'd love for it to be revisited today.
It is good that it is not a thing. Have any large (or at least medium size) trading guild ever wondered where the majority of the gold comes from ? Yep. From solo players who steal & fence stuff.
Now lets imagine that it is taken away. Guild loses a lot of sales & income (50 - 70% or possibly more). It is not beneficial to sell stuff anymore. As a result, a lot of stuff is not available for sale.
Hey ! You there ! Yes, You, PvP-er who was zerging that poor guy who was farming money by stealing & fencing stuff ! You want that potion or recipe or motif ? Well... you wont get it because no one is farming them...0 -
Cundu_Ertur✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭starkerealm wrote: »Dusk_Coven wrote: »Not until they fix how laughable it is. Examples:
- Sleep2Win -- log off your character with the huge bounty, go to sleep, wake up and poof you're a free toon
- Hiding Spots -- the guard SAW YOU JUMP INTO IT. They should insta-kill you when that happens. Instead they scratch their head and walk away.
- Jumps in Water -- I'M INVINCIBLE!
Yes. Exactly that.
Sincerely, Slaughterfish.Taking stealth away from the Bosmer is like taking magic away from the Altmer, making Nords allergic to mead, or making Orcs pretty.0 -
TheShadowScout✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Indeed. And even if that thread got closed now due to its age... like with the others of mine that are old bus still completely valid, I just repost it again with a newer date:darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »TheShadowScout wrote: »
Been there, done that...darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »Can we stop arguing about some non-existent pvp system and maybe put forth suggestions to improve the justice system as is?TheShadowScout wrote: »
Same. But that should come as no suprise, considering...darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »I wish there was more to it than just avoiding the guards...
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/384538/for-great-justice/p1
Those are some really good ideas. The whole bounty-hunter-esque part of that alone would be a complete game-changer.
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/498004/for-great-justice-ii
The planned PvP part of the justice system was decided against by the powers that be.darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »Enough with debating the pvp crap. That's not what I made this thread for. ALL I WANT IS MORE TO JUSTICE THAN HAVING TO AVOID GUARDS. THAT'S IT. FFS people, stop it with the pvp nonsense.
Its useless to talk about it, because the decision of ZOS -is- to not mix PvP into PvE regions.
So... that is that.
And thus... it would be a much more constructive discussion to talk about other options. Like guards getting more active about dispensing justice. Like punishments that would actually worry your average gamer. See above! 0 -
starkerealm✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »
... And they all would camp "stealing" spots in groups, waiting for easy pray to Xv1 the poor PvE-er who just wanted to farm some gold / recipes / motives / furnishing plans.starkerealm wrote: »Originally, the plan was for a PvP system. So, players would flag themselves as Enforcers, and could then engage in PvP against players with bounties. They'd loot any contraband off their foes, and then turn that in for rewards. Enforcers would turn contraband in at their base, while outlaws would go to the sewer fences.
There was also a plan for Outlaw Dens out in the wild, that Enforcers could enter and try to obtain contraband. Along the way they'd face normal delve grade foes, and hostile outlaw players. If they succeeded in recovering stolen goods from the den, they could take that back to their base, and turn it in.
The system was scrapped sometime around Orsinium or Hew's Bane, though I'd love for it to be revisited today.
It is good that it is not a thing. Have any large (or at least medium size) trading guild ever wondered where the majority of the gold comes from ? Yep. From solo players who steal & fence stuff.
Now lets imagine that it is taken away. Guild loses a lot of sales & income (50 - 70% or possibly more). It is not beneficial to sell stuff anymore. As a result, a lot of stuff is not available for sale.
Hey ! You there ! Yes, You, PvP-er who was zerging that poor guy who was farming money by stealing & fencing stuff ! You want that potion or recipe or motif ? Well... you wont get it because no one is farming them...
I don't have the numbers, but if there's a single larger source of gold in the game than writs, I'd be surprised.0