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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8098811/#Comment_8098811
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https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/8098811/#Comment_8098811
Skill lines are way too expensive and unrewarding
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »Its free if you play the game.
You and me have a different understanding of what playing a game should be like.
Then you clearly missed the point and seem to have limited experience in MMRPGs.1 -
Raideen✭✭✭✭✭
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Incorrect. There is nothing subjective about the guild grinds/skill unlocks NOT being done intentionally to produce monetization. The goal of everything done in this game is to drive people to the crown store and gamble crates.First of all, it is subjective. While you are trying to suggest it is not subjective you are in fact proving it is. You have literally proven it as a fact that the guild designs are enjoyable by some and not by others. Even after doing some quests multiple times I still enjoy hitting them up from time to time.
In World of Warcraft the only things you need to progress your character is to level up, and to get gear. There are no mandatory unlocks to acquire abilities that are necessary in order to perform at your maximum (often required by the peers in your trials or dungeons).Further, in any game every aspect of leveling up a character can become nothing more than a grind. While older games tend to grand more XP to make leveling fast, as has occurred with ESO, they tend to sell conveniences to make it even faster/easier via the cash shop. Zos has done nothing new here. Also, leveling up the fighters guild is the easier. If that is a grind then maybe a different game is best. All of them can be obtained pretty fast for a focused players.
Secondly, just because "other games are doing it" does not make it right. Its completely unethical to sell a game to a customer who purchases it in good faith, only for that customer to find out that they need to spend more money in order to enjoy the game to its fullest. In wow, you pay 15 a month and 99.999999% of the game is accessible to you. IN ESO you pay 15 bucks a month and you get a fraction of what is overly accessible. Mounts, pets, skills, outfits etc are all part of the MMORPG experience, I want you to take a close look at the RPG in MMORPG.
Incorrect. The skill line unlocks are extremely recent. At the same time they offered the skill line unlocks (because MOST people hate the grind once they have done it), they could have just as easily instead offered them up for ESO+ members as unlocks once they are completed on one toon.Beyond that, it is clear Zos did not design the fighters and mage guild nor the Undaunted with the idea of selling unlocks via cash. Heck, two of them were designed over 5 years before these unlocks hit the cash shop (AvA can be lumped into here). Undaunted was added over 4 years beforehand.
So, you are incorrect because regardless of WHEN they made the guilds, they VERY MUCH are capitalizing on it today.
Or I can educate the entire world how bad their monetization practices are through every social media account to let potential buyers beware.Buy the convenience or not but you will have to deal with the design.
Customers should not be expected to pay more than a sub and the price of the game. If ESO included most of this stuff in game for the price of a sub, even if the sub was 20 bucks a month, then that would be one thing. But that is not what they do. They show screenshot after screenshot and video after video of all this cool stuff that prospective buyers see in the game, that are only available in game for additional money, and mind you were are not talking hundreds. IT costs THOUSANDS of dollars to unlock this additional content. MOST of it not being offered in game with gold.Oh, the purchasing bank slots is pretty absurd. It is so easy to get in game. I had the bank and bags on two characters mostly unlocked by the time my first two characters hit lvl 50 when the game launched. When they added slots to character bank space it was not issue maxing it out on 4 characters. If someone is having issues with unlocking bank space they are wasting gold and it is a personal issue.
Incorrect. Its not even remotely easy to unlock them in game unless you are in a traders guild and have some means of making money on a regular basis. The gold cost is absurd. In fact, I don't have the bank fully unlocked on ANY character.
I am at 280 bank slots. Its 42700 to unlock an additional 10 slots. I am in one of the largest trade guilds in the game, inside the top 3 slots for most sold for the past 3 weeks in NA. My guildies, people who make tons of gold even admit that 47k is a ton for 10 bank slots. Someone sold a gold weapon for 200k the other day and was perplexed that someone would pay that much for a gold weapon.
47k is a reasonable amount of gold and the bank slot price just gets higher and higher from there.
Secondly though, you are taking the bank gold in a vacuum. The game does not leech gold from your pocket in a bank vacuum. I spent 3600 a day on repairs. Guild quotas, buying things that are not realistically farmable to do writs etc etc. There is a TON of gold sink in this game that makes those bank slots EXTREMELY expensive.
Thirdly. the proof that the bank slots are expensive is in the fact that ZOS offers them for crowns. Anyone who denies that this game is NOT designed to funnel people to the crown store is either a literal shill, or completely uneducated on the matter. The crown store has its fingerprints all over this game. I am sorry you fail to see this.
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I never understand people that defend *** cash shop/monetization practices in-games. Sure they might be fine with it--but others are clearly not. And if they understood that poor monetization can drive players away from a game thus impacting its health, they might be more inclined to agree.
My point of this thread was that nobody feels happy to spend $30 so they don't have to do something (especially if it's something they have done repeatedly, like grinding the mages guild).
Sure Mages guild/other lines were cool the first time or so, but it becomes repetitive and tedious, asking a sum of $30 to skip such services is a wild cash grab.
ZOS wouldn't offer the service if they didn't think people thought it was so tedious that they would pay $30 not to do it.3 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Bscott0905b14_ESO wrote: »I never understand people that defend *** cash shop/monetization practices in-games. Sure they might be fine with it--but others are clearly not. And if they understood that poor monetization can drive players away from a game thus impacting its health, they might be more inclined to agree.
My point of this thread was that nobody feels happy to spend $30 so they don't have to do something (especially if it's something they have done repeatedly, like grinding the mages guild).
Sure Mages guild/other lines were cool the first time or so, but it becomes repetitive and tedious, asking a sum of $30 to skip such services is a wild cash grab.
ZOS wouldn't offer the service if they didn't think people thought it was so tedious that they would pay $30 not to do it.
Its almost like players with tons and tons of alts, or players who really only care about leveling up to end-game play told ZOS they were willing to pay. Every player who buys those skill lines proves it. And for every player who shrugs off "I'm not paying that, I'd rather play the game for free", ZOS is delighted, because its players actually playing the game. Win-win for ZOS.
I do not see the point of paying $30 for something I can get in game, for free, for the cost of some time. Other people do, and that's their choice and their money. ZOS gave them that choice, plus the choice to continue on playing the game to get the skill lines for free.
There's no practical reason for ZOS to make it cheaper. Cheaper means that ZOS devalues the effort players make by actually playing the game. Players skipping the game by buying skill lines is not actually the ideal.
Making it free as some players have suggested is the absolute worst of both worlds, since there's no profit and it encourages players to skip playing the game as much as possible. "But it makes players happy" does not in any way make that loss worth it to the Devs. For a game that focuses on replaying content again and again (that's basically the PVE end-game in a nutshell), taking away incentives to replay skill lines and skyshards by making them free would be a terrible mistake from the Devs POV.
Additionally, I suggest that any player who's gotten to the point where getting skill lines is incredibly tedious should consider not making more alts than they can reasonably handle leveling up. Like, that's your choice. Own it. If you drive yourself to the point where playing the game to level up becomes an intolerable grind, I don't know what you expected. ZOS isnt going to make it easier/cheaper for you to skip playing the game just because you got bored. Either suck it up or go do something that doesnt bore you - the only person making you play content you find tedious to the point of hating it is yourself.
So many of these complaints comes from players who want ZOS to focus on what makes them "happy", instead of looking at the nuts and bolts of how ESO functions as a game and keeps players playing as much as possible. ESO has always been about keeping players playing as long as possible, and exacerbated since they swapped to horizontal progression with One Tamriel. It may not be what you like. It may not make you "happy." Some players will eventually quit. But it keeps the majority of players coming back for more and that makes it a winning strategy for ZOS.
I'm very pragmatic about this. Game companies don't change things primarily to make players "happy" and certainly not if making a suggested change is going to lose them money or player time.1 -
Raideen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »Its almost like players with tons and tons of alts, or players who really only care about leveling up to end-game play told ZOS they were willing to pay. Every player who buys those skill lines proves it.
Just because someone pays for something does not mean they are willing. You pay taxes? Yes, are you delighted to do so...I am not, most people are not. Do children like to eat their vegetables? Many do not, but they eat them anyway. Not so much willing though.
What about those who pay a montly fee with ESO plus. How do they fall into the equation? There is nothing "free" about paying monthly.VaranisArano wrote: »And for every player who shrugs off "I'm not paying that, I'd rather play the game for free", ZOS is delighted, because its players actually playing the game. Win-win for ZOS.
Paying money or being free is not the debate. The debate is that the game is designed to funnel you to the crown store with mundane tasks such as guild grinds.VaranisArano wrote: »I do not see the point of paying $30 for something I can get in game, for free, for the cost of some time. Other people do, and that's their choice and their money. ZOS gave them that choice, plus the choice to continue on playing the game to get the skill lines for free.VaranisArano wrote: »There's no practical reason for ZOS to make it cheaper. Cheaper means that ZOS devalues the effort players make by actually playing the game. Players skipping the game by buying skill lines is not actually the ideal.
There is a practical reason, and that is treating customers with some respect and not as cash cows. There is no reason skill unlocks should not happen once you unlock them on a level 50. In wow your flying is unlocked for all characters on an account when you unlock it on a "main", its never devalued the game for me...in fact it made me play my alts more now that I did not haver to dredge through content I had already seen.VaranisArano wrote: »Making it free as some players have suggested is the absolute worst of both worlds, since there's no profit
What do you mean there is no profit. There was profit made when the game was purchased. There was more profit made when the player subbed to ESO plus. You act as if every ability, action, item in game should be purchased separately from the initial purchase itself?!?!? LOLVaranisArano wrote: »Making it free as some players have suggested is the absolute worst of both worlds, since there's no profit and it encourages players to skip playing the game as much as possible. "But it makes players happy" does not in any way make that loss worth it to the Devs. For a game that focuses on replaying content again and again (that's basically the PVE end-game in a nutshell), taking away incentives to replay skill lines and skyshards by making them free would be a terrible mistake from the Devs POV.
Its not free, no one suggested it be free. What has been suggested is that it becomes unlocked for the entire account once its been obtained. That does not make it free. ZOS clearly sees no problem with banking being account wide. I guess we should make banking per character too because it devalues the need of a bank being free.
SMHVaranisArano wrote: »Additionally, I suggest that any player who's gotten to the point where getting skill lines is incredibly tedious should consider not making more alts than they can reasonably handle leveling up. Like, that's your choice. Own it. If you drive yourself to the point where playing the game to level up becomes an intolerable grind, I don't know what you expected. ZOS isnt going to make it easier/cheaper for you to skip playing the game just because you got bored. Either suck it up or go do something that doesnt bore you - the only person making you play content you find tedious to the point of hating it is yourself.
And who are you to tell others how to play? Do you know every possible reason for every person in game who has rolled an alt? I suggest that you do not know, that you can't know. Did you ever consider that perhaps, just maybe that the only way to know if you like a class or not is to level one up, then gear them out with the appropriate guild abilites etc, only to then find out that the play style is not your cup of tea? I mean, spamming 1 ability at level 1 does not exactly tell you how the class is going to play out.VaranisArano wrote: »So many of these complaints comes from players who want ZOS to focus on what makes them "happy", instead of looking at the nuts and bolts of how ESO functions as a game and keeps players playing as much as possible. ESO has always been about keeping players playing as long as possible, and exacerbated since they swapped to horizontal progression with One Tamriel. It may not be what you like. It may not make you "happy." Some players will eventually quit. But it keeps the majority of players coming back for more and that makes it a winning strategy for ZOS.
I'm very pragmatic about this. Game companies don't change things primarily to make players "happy" and certainly not if making a suggested change is going to lose them money or player time.
You have completely lost touch with the reason a consumer plays a game in the first place. I would argue being "happy" ranks pretty high up on the chart as to why people play, and continue to play games.
The ones that don't make players happy, fail and that might explain why ESO's player base is falling on the steam charts.
Edited by Raideen on October 1, 2019 12:51AM1 -
VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »Its almost like players with tons and tons of alts, or players who really only care about leveling up to end-game play told ZOS they were willing to pay. Every player who buys those skill lines proves it.
Just because someone pays for something does not mean they are willing. You pay taxes? Yes, are you delighted to do so...I am not, most people are not. Do children like to eat their vegetables? Many do not, but they eat them anyway. Not so much willing though.
What about those who pay a montly fee with ESO plus. How do they fall into the equation? There is nothing "free" about paying monthly.VaranisArano wrote: »And for every player who shrugs off "I'm not paying that, I'd rather play the game for free", ZOS is delighted, because its players actually playing the game. Win-win for ZOS.
Paying money or being free is not the debate. The debate is that the game is designed to funnel you to the crown store with mundane tasks such as guild grinds.VaranisArano wrote: »I do not see the point of paying $30 for something I can get in game, for free, for the cost of some time. Other people do, and that's their choice and their money. ZOS gave them that choice, plus the choice to continue on playing the game to get the skill lines for free.VaranisArano wrote: »There's no practical reason for ZOS to make it cheaper. Cheaper means that ZOS devalues the effort players make by actually playing the game. Players skipping the game by buying skill lines is not actually the ideal.
There is a practical reason, and that is treating customers with some respect and not as cash cows. There is no reason skill unlocks should not happen once you unlock them on a level 50. In wow your flying is unlocked for all characters on an account when you unlock it on a "main", its never devalued the game for me...in fact it made me play my alts more now that I did not haver to dredge through content I had already seen.VaranisArano wrote: »Making it free as some players have suggested is the absolute worst of both worlds, since there's no profit
What do you mean there is no profit. There was profit made when the game was purchased. There was more profit made when the player subbed to ESO plus. You act as if every ability, action, item in game should be purchased separately from the initial purchase itself?!?!? LOLVaranisArano wrote: »Making it free as some players have suggested is the absolute worst of both worlds, since there's no profit and it encourages players to skip playing the game as much as possible. "But it makes players happy" does not in any way make that loss worth it to the Devs. For a game that focuses on replaying content again and again (that's basically the PVE end-game in a nutshell), taking away incentives to replay skill lines and skyshards by making them free would be a terrible mistake from the Devs POV.
Its not free, no one suggested it be free. What has been suggested is that it becomes unlocked for the entire account once its been obtained. That does not make it free. ZOS clearly sees no problem with banking being account wide. I guess we should make banking per character too because it devalues the need of a bank being free.
SMHVaranisArano wrote: »Additionally, I suggest that any player who's gotten to the point where getting skill lines is incredibly tedious should consider not making more alts than they can reasonably handle leveling up. Like, that's your choice. Own it. If you drive yourself to the point where playing the game to level up becomes an intolerable grind, I don't know what you expected. ZOS isnt going to make it easier/cheaper for you to skip playing the game just because you got bored. Either suck it up or go do something that doesnt bore you - the only person making you play content you find tedious to the point of hating it is yourself.
And who are you to tell others how to play? Do you know every possible reason for every person in game who has rolled an alt? I suggest that you do not know, that you can't know. Did you ever consider that perhaps, just maybe that the only way to know if you like a class or not is to level one up, then gear them out with the appropriate guild abilites etc, only to then find out that the play style is not your cup of tea? I mean, spamming 1 ability at level 1 does not exactly tell you how the class is going to play out.VaranisArano wrote: »So many of these complaints comes from players who want ZOS to focus on what makes them "happy", instead of looking at the nuts and bolts of how ESO functions as a game and keeps players playing as much as possible. ESO has always been about keeping players playing as long as possible, and exacerbated since they swapped to horizontal progression with One Tamriel. It may not be what you like. It may not make you "happy." Some players will eventually quit. But it keeps the majority of players coming back for more and that makes it a winning strategy for ZOS.
I'm very pragmatic about this. Game companies don't change things primarily to make players "happy" and certainly not if making a suggested change is going to lose them money or player time.
You have completely lost touch with the reason a consumer plays a game in the first place. I would argue being "happy" ranks pretty high up on the chart as to why people play, and continue to play games.
The ones that don't make players happy, fail and that might explain why ESO's player base is falling on the steam charts.
Hi, Idealist.
Meet me, the Cynic.
If our earlier conversation wasn't enough of a clue, we're just not going to see eye-to-eye on this one. I respect your opinion, but I don't agree.
You did misunderstand me in two places.
1. My suggestion was exactly that: a suggestion. I don't presume to dictate how others should play. That suggestion is based on my observations that players I know, including myself, who overdo it on grinding or playing the same content over and over tend to grow painfully bored rather more quickly than those who pace themselves. Of course, everyone can choose to play the content they want, as many times as they want.
2. "Some players are willing to pay $30 for skill lines" is accurate. Unlike the govt with taxes or parental authority at the dinner table no one is forcing players to buy skill lines. Players don't have to buy anything if they aren't willing. At most, ZOS incentivizes players to buy from the crown store or subscribe, but no one forces unwilling players to buy anything. Players who purchase skill lines may not be happy about the price, but that's not the same as being unwilling to do so. I should hope that's an obvious distinction.
Beyond those two points of apparent confusion, I'd rather not get into an endless debate between Idealism and Cynicism, or about our respective approaches to evaluating game design. We've already stated our opinions to each other before, argued, and didn't convince each other. I respect your idealism, but I don't see how Round2 is going to accomplish anything but wasting our time repeating ourselves.
So I hope you have a great day!Edited by VaranisArano on October 1, 2019 6:19AM1 -
Raideen✭✭✭✭✭
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We do not see eye to eye because I champion what is good for the customer (which ultimately rewards the company). You would rather shill for ZO$ and their desire for fast money at the expense of turning off their loyal customers.VaranisArano wrote: »
Hi, Idealist.
Meet me, the Cynic.
If our earlier conversation wasn't enough of a clue, we're just not going to see eye-to-eye on this one. I respect your opinion, but I don't agree.
Incorrect. I understand you just fine, I just don't buy the spin you put on it.VaranisArano wrote: »You did misunderstand me in two places.VaranisArano wrote: »My suggestion was exactly that: a suggestion. I don't presume to dictate how others should play. That suggestion is based on my observations that players I know, including myself, who overdo it on grinding or playing the same content over and over tend to grow painfully bored rather more quickly than those who pace themselves. Of course, everyone can choose to play the content they want, as many times as they want.
Except that you assume people are "over doing it" by choice. That is not always the case. If someone makes the choice to play the game, ESPECIALLY after they dumped LITERALLY hundreds or thousands into the game, but the current class they play is nerfed beyond being useful then their only real option is to reroll and find something fun to help get something out of the investment. So, its not always about being an altoholic, sometimes its about shifting your gears based on the design direction of the game. Which, as I have previously stated and is obvious and apparent to anyone with a design degree can see that the games design is to funnel players to the crown store. Literally everything in game is made to extract profit first, at the expense of fun. Making guild skill lines (that are required for most builds to do trials or even some vets) grindy is proof of this. As I said before, why not make mundane tasks like that unlock as an account wide achievement? We all ready know the answer and its not about "player fun".
Secondly, you snarkingly suggested on more than one occasion to play how YOU play, suggesting that people who play differently are doing it wrong.
Remember when you said to get the mage books and sky shards while you were leveling? Well ya, that does not actually work out. You can level to 50 in just a couple zones if you do everything in the zone (as you suggested). But then again, we both know it was a BS excuse in order to deflect the attention off the greedy design of the game and onto the "lazy player".
Incorrect. The goal is to make the grinds so mind-numbingly boring that people just take the beating and spend the money unwillingly. Again, they could have just as easily made it an account wide unlock. Why not? Ohh because its much more lucrative for them to gouge their customers on a damn near daily basis.VaranisArano wrote: »3. "Some players are willing to pay $30 for skill lines" is accurate. Unlike the govt with taxes or parental authority at the dinner table no one is forcing players to buy skill lines. Players don't have to buy anything if they aren't willing. At most, ZOS incentivizes players to buy from the crown store or subscribe, but no one forces unwilling players to buy anything. Players who purchase skill lines may not be happy about the price, but that's not the same as being unwilling to do so. I should hope that's an obvious distinction.VaranisArano wrote: »Beyond those two points of apparent confusion, I'd rather not get into an endless debate between Idealism and Cynicism, or about our respective approaches to evaluating game design. We've already stated our opinions to each other before, argued, and didn't convince each other. I respect your idealism, but I don't see how Round2 is going to accomplish anything but wasting our time repeating ourselves.
So I hope you have a great day!
As I previously stated, there was no confusion on my behalf at all, but nice sly attempt at trying to get the reader to be convinced otherwise.
You are correct on one thing though, I will never agree with your approach to this game, because I approach it from a consumer first viewpoint and you approach it from a company first viewpoint. In simpler terms, I am taking the ethical high ground, you are not.
Have a nice day. I wish you the best.Edited by Raideen on October 9, 2019 9:32PM1
