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Enough already!!
Shantu
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Mark my words, the net effect of all this nerf damage madness will result in less fun for the vast majority of players. Sure there are a small handful of players/groups that can face roll HM vet content, but they garner far more game design attention than they deserve. The average user with the dps they have right now cannot even complete the bulk of vet content. Their non-elitist abilities get lost in all this madness. The end result will only be a further division of average vs elite and further drive the majority of players AWAY from vet end game content. A good game design should seek to empower the majority of players...not further diminish their ability.
One player I know has been struggling for months to finish vMA. Yeah, she's not that "gud", but in terms of persistence, she should get a medal. She's basically lousy at LA weaving (no, not everyone can master it) and has a Templar build that uses all AOE's with Puncturing Sweeps. We've been encouraging her all this time to not give up, and she doesn't. Now you may hurl criticism to "git gud", but guess what? She is MUCH more representative of the vast majority of players than these 100K elitists ZOS seems so impressed with. And guess what these changes to AOE costs and damage nerfs will do to her? It will be a gut punch, that's for sure.
Personally, I would consider myself a good degree above average. I will, if I choose, be able to reluctantly adapt to these frustrating changes and continue my pursuit of end game content. But most people will not. They'll feel disheartened, with months, if not years, of effort negated, and will just say the hell with combat. I completed vMA a long time ago and have most of the vet trials notched on my belt...and I'm about ready to say the same thing.
Conceptually these changes feel like they're driven by a developmental fervor to have balanced mathematical calculations...while excluding the most important incalculable variable of all...enjoyment.
One player I know has been struggling for months to finish vMA. Yeah, she's not that "gud", but in terms of persistence, she should get a medal. She's basically lousy at LA weaving (no, not everyone can master it) and has a Templar build that uses all AOE's with Puncturing Sweeps. We've been encouraging her all this time to not give up, and she doesn't. Now you may hurl criticism to "git gud", but guess what? She is MUCH more representative of the vast majority of players than these 100K elitists ZOS seems so impressed with. And guess what these changes to AOE costs and damage nerfs will do to her? It will be a gut punch, that's for sure.
Personally, I would consider myself a good degree above average. I will, if I choose, be able to reluctantly adapt to these frustrating changes and continue my pursuit of end game content. But most people will not. They'll feel disheartened, with months, if not years, of effort negated, and will just say the hell with combat. I completed vMA a long time ago and have most of the vet trials notched on my belt...and I'm about ready to say the same thing.
Conceptually these changes feel like they're driven by a developmental fervor to have balanced mathematical calculations...while excluding the most important incalculable variable of all...enjoyment.
27
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DoonerSeraph✭✭✭✭Mark my words, the net effect of all this nerf damage madness will result in less fun for the vast majority of players. Sure there are a small handful of players/groups that can face roll HM vet content, but they garner far more game design attention than they deserve. The average user with the dps they have right now cannot even complete the bulk of vet content. Their non-elitist abilities get lost in all this madness. The end result will only be a further division of average vs elite and further drive the majority of players AWAY from vet end game content. A good game design should seek to empower the majority of players...not further diminish their ability.
One player I know has been struggling for months to finish vMA. Yeah, she's not that "gud", but in terms of persistence, she should get a medal. She's basically lousy at LA weaving (no, not everyone can master it) and has a Templar build that uses all AOE's with Puncturing Sweeps. We've been encouraging her all this time to not give up, and she doesn't. Now you may hurl criticism to "git gud", but guess what? She is MUCH more representative of the vast majority of players than these 100K elitists ZOS seems so impressed with. And guess what these changes to AOE costs and damage nerfs will do to her? It will be a gut punch, that's for sure.
Personally, I would consider myself a good degree above average. I will, if I choose, be able to reluctantly adapt to these frustrating changes and continue my pursuit of end game content. But most people will not. They'll feel disheartened, with months, if not years, of effort negated, and will just say the hell with combat. I completed vMA a long time ago and have most of the vet trials notched on my belt...and I'm about ready to say the same thing.
Conceptually these changes feel like they're driven by a developmental fervor to have balanced mathematical calculations...while excluding the most important incalculable variable of all...enjoyment.
Indeed. Its not a matter of getting "gud" or not, I can just drop a bunch of skills I always found fun, interesting and useful. But this just removes skills from peoples bars, not a definition of fun, its restraining options just because "its aoe".
Then people say "build more sustain", yeah, and deal no damage either in ST and AoE, neat!
Heavy attacks are a badly implemented mechanic, if you want us to use them, make them more fluid at least.
+1 to you, OP.8 -
kathandira✭✭✭✭✭
✭DoonerSeraph wrote: »Mark my words, the net effect of all this nerf damage madness will result in less fun for the vast majority of players. Sure there are a small handful of players/groups that can face roll HM vet content, but they garner far more game design attention than they deserve. The average user with the dps they have right now cannot even complete the bulk of vet content. Their non-elitist abilities get lost in all this madness. The end result will only be a further division of average vs elite and further drive the majority of players AWAY from vet end game content. A good game design should seek to empower the majority of players...not further diminish their ability.
One player I know has been struggling for months to finish vMA. Yeah, she's not that "gud", but in terms of persistence, she should get a medal. She's basically lousy at LA weaving (no, not everyone can master it) and has a Templar build that uses all AOE's with Puncturing Sweeps. We've been encouraging her all this time to not give up, and she doesn't. Now you may hurl criticism to "git gud", but guess what? She is MUCH more representative of the vast majority of players than these 100K elitists ZOS seems so impressed with. And guess what these changes to AOE costs and damage nerfs will do to her? It will be a gut punch, that's for sure.
Personally, I would consider myself a good degree above average. I will, if I choose, be able to reluctantly adapt to these frustrating changes and continue my pursuit of end game content. But most people will not. They'll feel disheartened, with months, if not years, of effort negated, and will just say the hell with combat. I completed vMA a long time ago and have most of the vet trials notched on my belt...and I'm about ready to say the same thing.
Conceptually these changes feel like they're driven by a developmental fervor to have balanced mathematical calculations...while excluding the most important incalculable variable of all...enjoyment.
Indeed. Its not a matter of getting "gud" or not, I can just drop a bunch of skills I always found fun, interesting and useful. But this just removes skills from peoples bars, not a definition of fun, its restraining options just because "its aoe".
Then people say "build more sustain", yeah, and deal no damage either in ST and AoE, neat!
Heavy attacks are a badly implemented mechanic, if you want us to use them, make them more fluid at least.
+1 to you, OP.
Additionally, False Gods is already BiS for most Magicka DPS since sustain on live is not very good. Now it's going to be worse.PS4-NA. Breton Templar Healer, Bosmer Stamplar, Breton Magplar, Orsimer StamDK, Dunmer MagDK, Khajiit StamNB, Dunmer MagNB, Argonian Warden Tank, Altmer Magsorc2 -
DoonerSeraph✭✭✭✭kathandira wrote: »DoonerSeraph wrote: »Mark my words, the net effect of all this nerf damage madness will result in less fun for the vast majority of players. Sure there are a small handful of players/groups that can face roll HM vet content, but they garner far more game design attention than they deserve. The average user with the dps they have right now cannot even complete the bulk of vet content. Their non-elitist abilities get lost in all this madness. The end result will only be a further division of average vs elite and further drive the majority of players AWAY from vet end game content. A good game design should seek to empower the majority of players...not further diminish their ability.
One player I know has been struggling for months to finish vMA. Yeah, she's not that "gud", but in terms of persistence, she should get a medal. She's basically lousy at LA weaving (no, not everyone can master it) and has a Templar build that uses all AOE's with Puncturing Sweeps. We've been encouraging her all this time to not give up, and she doesn't. Now you may hurl criticism to "git gud", but guess what? She is MUCH more representative of the vast majority of players than these 100K elitists ZOS seems so impressed with. And guess what these changes to AOE costs and damage nerfs will do to her? It will be a gut punch, that's for sure.
Personally, I would consider myself a good degree above average. I will, if I choose, be able to reluctantly adapt to these frustrating changes and continue my pursuit of end game content. But most people will not. They'll feel disheartened, with months, if not years, of effort negated, and will just say the hell with combat. I completed vMA a long time ago and have most of the vet trials notched on my belt...and I'm about ready to say the same thing.
Conceptually these changes feel like they're driven by a developmental fervor to have balanced mathematical calculations...while excluding the most important incalculable variable of all...enjoyment.
Indeed. Its not a matter of getting "gud" or not, I can just drop a bunch of skills I always found fun, interesting and useful. But this just removes skills from peoples bars, not a definition of fun, its restraining options just because "its aoe".
Then people say "build more sustain", yeah, and deal no damage either in ST and AoE, neat!
Heavy attacks are a badly implemented mechanic, if you want us to use them, make them more fluid at least.
+1 to you, OP.
Additionally, False Gods is already BiS for most Magicka DPS since sustain on live is not very good. Now it's going to be worse.
Yup, also breton and Redguard.2 -
kathandira✭✭✭✭✭
✭DoonerSeraph wrote: »kathandira wrote: »DoonerSeraph wrote: »Mark my words, the net effect of all this nerf damage madness will result in less fun for the vast majority of players. Sure there are a small handful of players/groups that can face roll HM vet content, but they garner far more game design attention than they deserve. The average user with the dps they have right now cannot even complete the bulk of vet content. Their non-elitist abilities get lost in all this madness. The end result will only be a further division of average vs elite and further drive the majority of players AWAY from vet end game content. A good game design should seek to empower the majority of players...not further diminish their ability.
One player I know has been struggling for months to finish vMA. Yeah, she's not that "gud", but in terms of persistence, she should get a medal. She's basically lousy at LA weaving (no, not everyone can master it) and has a Templar build that uses all AOE's with Puncturing Sweeps. We've been encouraging her all this time to not give up, and she doesn't. Now you may hurl criticism to "git gud", but guess what? She is MUCH more representative of the vast majority of players than these 100K elitists ZOS seems so impressed with. And guess what these changes to AOE costs and damage nerfs will do to her? It will be a gut punch, that's for sure.
Personally, I would consider myself a good degree above average. I will, if I choose, be able to reluctantly adapt to these frustrating changes and continue my pursuit of end game content. But most people will not. They'll feel disheartened, with months, if not years, of effort negated, and will just say the hell with combat. I completed vMA a long time ago and have most of the vet trials notched on my belt...and I'm about ready to say the same thing.
Conceptually these changes feel like they're driven by a developmental fervor to have balanced mathematical calculations...while excluding the most important incalculable variable of all...enjoyment.
Indeed. Its not a matter of getting "gud" or not, I can just drop a bunch of skills I always found fun, interesting and useful. But this just removes skills from peoples bars, not a definition of fun, its restraining options just because "its aoe".
Then people say "build more sustain", yeah, and deal no damage either in ST and AoE, neat!
Heavy attacks are a badly implemented mechanic, if you want us to use them, make them more fluid at least.
+1 to you, OP.
Additionally, False Gods is already BiS for most Magicka DPS since sustain on live is not very good. Now it's going to be worse.
Yup, also breton and Redguard.
Stam - Redguard - VO
Mag - Breton - FG
Great diversity we have here, lol.PS4-NA. Breton Templar Healer, Bosmer Stamplar, Breton Magplar, Orsimer StamDK, Dunmer MagDK, Khajiit StamNB, Dunmer MagNB, Argonian Warden Tank, Altmer Magsorc1 -
Jodynn✭✭✭✭✭
✭The AoE changes is a nerf to everyone, a hard nerf in happiness and isn't justified, it's cost is that it can't be moved, that is more than enough for a cost and doesn't justify the proposed 5k~6k cost.
Secondly, if she is having trouble light attack weaving try helping her learn going slow, I'm not trying to be elitist or say just git gud, I'm trying to help; slowly start then building up is the right way to do it, take your time to learn the mechanics and it's not so daunting later, practice does indeed make perfect start off with learning how light attack cast skill, then speed it up, more and more until it's 1 second on per weave with the skills, then add the rotation in. It's not going to be perfect at first but it'll help her loads trust me.
Also, sustain isn't fun to build for it's boring and lazy game design, no one wants to heavy attack, no one wants to wait, people want to use their skills and use in a fast combat design it's not fun having to get your resources back.
Decent post overall but you can't look at just one area, you have to look at the general player and the elite players, I am an elite but I remember what it was like to be the general who could barely do 10k DPS, now I do 100k.
There is just a bit to learn on how to do it, but once you do it kind of unlocks for the entire game.
On our side, it's so frustrating when people say we'll just adapt and change our build to the new "meta".
That's not fun, no one wants that, some of us like our build a lot, and we don't want to have to change it over and over, it's annoying to have to transmute things in PvP over and over, it's annoying to have to have a skill butchered that defined your class partially and you love ( Eruption on Live right now is unplayable in many contexts because of the AoE cost, I have insight on the increase cost the propose and let me tell you it sucks ).
We theorycraft, we put in the time, the effort, and the love for challenging ourselves and getting better, some people are toxic I will agree, but a lot of us aren't and we just want to help the game just like average players, and we are fine with sharing, we don't want our stuff butchered either and we are sick of it.
The latest v5.2.2 is a step in the right direction, keep stepping ZOS please, because we need some love from the catastrophic changes, and we want to love this game.Jodynn PC NA
PvE and PvP MagDK
The lack of communication from ZOS to player speaks volumes.3 -
SeaUnicorn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Agree, combat design should aim to reduce convoluted hidden mechanics and bridge the gap between floor and ceiling, not other way around. Things like inconsistent animation that each has its own hidden quirks (I'm looking at you, volley, solar barrage, spear shards, blastbones, necro siphon... ) have to be resolved. Nowhere in the game guides I see explanation of how and why LA animation canceling is done or that if you use oob bash key binding - you are hindering your stam regen, because it also involves block. There's no much hidden mechanics that drive new players away from end game because they just smash their heads against the wall and don't understand why their DPS is bad...5 -
ZonasArch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Mark my words, the net effect of all this nerf damage madness will result in less fun for the vast majority of players. Sure there are a small handful of players/groups that can face roll HM vet content, but they garner far more game design attention than they deserve. The average user with the dps they have right now cannot even complete the bulk of vet content. Their non-elitist abilities get lost in all this madness. The end result will only be a further division of average vs elite and further drive the majority of players AWAY from vet end game content. A good game design should seek to empower the majority of players...not further diminish their ability.
One player I know has been struggling for months to finish vMA. Yeah, she's not that "gud", but in terms of persistence, she should get a medal. She's basically lousy at LA weaving (no, not everyone can master it) and has a Templar build that uses all AOE's with Puncturing Sweeps. We've been encouraging her all this time to not give up, and she doesn't. Now you may hurl criticism to "git gud", but guess what? She is MUCH more representative of the vast majority of players than these 100K elitists ZOS seems so impressed with. And guess what these changes to AOE costs and damage nerfs will do to her? It will be a gut punch, that's for sure.
Personally, I would consider myself a good degree above average. I will, if I choose, be able to reluctantly adapt to these frustrating changes and continue my pursuit of end game content. But most people will not. They'll feel disheartened, with months, if not years, of effort negated, and will just say the hell with combat. I completed vMA a long time ago and have most of the vet trials notched on my belt...and I'm about ready to say the same thing.
Conceptually these changes feel like they're driven by a developmental fervor to have balanced mathematical calculations...while excluding the most important incalculable variable of all...enjoyment.
Stopped reading when you said vast majority would feel less fun.
I PROMISE you, vast majority won't ever even know what changed, it even if something changed. You're pregnant out of touch with a more wide player baee but I promise you... Most people don't know and don't care about any of this.
I'm not kidding... If you think otherwise, you're just loopy.
Mostly, ask those people will have fun either way. Good sustain or bad, good damage or bad, and you know why? Ironically enough, because all they care about is having fun! They forget or ignore numbers, and therefore are immune to changes like that. Functionality changes, not so much, but numbers only?
So yeah... Don't worry about that0 -
Wayshuba✭✭✭✭✭I PROMISE you, vast majority won't ever even know what changed, it even if something changed. You're pregnant out of touch with a more wide player baee but I promise you... Most people don't know and don't care about any of this.
I promise you that is not the case this time. I am in multiple guilds and all of them have had a drastic reduction in live logins since the 5.2 Patch Notes dropped - and I am talking drastic reductions. The lowest is 40% less players during prime hours, the worst is 80%. Based on comments I have seen since 5.2 patch notes dropped, it appears a lot of people are seeing this in their guild rosters as well. This is far beyond the normal drop off while people are waiting on new content.
It is not hard to notice in game when usually bustling hubs, like the crafting area in Vivec City, are noticeably less populated than they have been in the past. Furthermore, lots of guilds are now having trial runs fall apart because no one wants to put the effort in for gear farming and build rotation practice in just to have it all thrown in the trash the very next patch.
I would be willing to bet ZoS saw this drop off too which is why they are making the concessions with the 5.2.2 patch, and also why they felt the need to do a feature article on Class Identity. They wouldn't write an article about it if so many weren't paying attention. Even then, people aren't stupid to see ZoS is STILL going to have a lot of heavy nerfing in the coming patch. Was just on Discord last night and there was a lot of chatter about what a joke the 5.2.2 notes still are because people can see it is still a big nerf with a big cost increase coming. It might have convinced a few people they are listening, but I can assure you it did not convince the majority.
I am connected on Steam with a lot of my guild mates as well and I am seeing the pop ups coming up all the time that "so and so" is playing Final Fantasy XIV or Pillars or Eternity now (and several have defected to WoW Classic as well). One must remember that ESO is not the only strong MMO now.
Based on my discussions with guild mates, you are vastly underestimating how many people don't recognize their builds have changed. You would be surprised how many people keep up with people like Alcast (who recently claimed he gets 500k visits a month to his website, which is a crazy lot of players for a site that only covers one game). They see how he updates builds and how recently so many past builds have had to be archived on his site because of how badly ZoS is swinging the meta from patch to patch (and this coming patch, even with the proposed adjustments, is no different).
One has to remember that the core, fundamental gameplay aspect of MMOs that attracts most players is in the continued development of your characters and conquering newer challenges as your master that development. For the last year, people have not been able to do this because ZoS has dramatically changed things every three months so people feel like "what's the use" when all your effort is destroyed every three months.
It not just the constant over-the-top buffs and nerfs either. Many changes to the game make absolutely no sense to people. Altmer are known as a Magicka race but you give them a class passive that restores their lowest resource (which doesn't even make sense with how the game is played to being with). Last patch you wipe the floor with class uniqueness and have everyone running around with the same two or three generic DoT skills because of how it was overdone... then you had the asinine changes (and reasoning behind those changes) to Eclipse and it's morphs. Now you have this silly idea of having Stonefist become a ranged spammable that on a third hit will stun. Really? Someone is going to spend 10k Magicka to get a stun? In addition, the Stonefist doesn't even remotely fit to a DK playstyle. This is just a small list of examples of why so many have lost faith in the current combat team.
Lastly, you have the well known influencers of this game - people such as Alcast, Dottz, Fengrush and others - who have also all commented they are seeing people leave over the frustration. One of them even commented how he is trying to convince people to give ZoS until the next Chapter and he says even that isn't working, that people are fed up and leaving NOW.
So I have to disagree with your assessment here. There are signs all over the place that a very good portion of the player base has had it and many of them are leaving at this point. The vast majority of the player base is actually fed up with how this combat team seems to swing back and forth every single patch with little regard for the players in the game. They treat this like they are still in an alpha build of the game, rather than the mature title it is.
Edited by Wayshuba on October 2, 2019 8:33PM11 -
Bloodystab✭✭✭✭kathandira wrote: »DoonerSeraph wrote: »kathandira wrote: »DoonerSeraph wrote: »Mark my words, the net effect of all this nerf damage madness will result in less fun for the vast majority of players. Sure there are a small handful of players/groups that can face roll HM vet content, but they garner far more game design attention than they deserve. The average user with the dps they have right now cannot even complete the bulk of vet content. Their non-elitist abilities get lost in all this madness. The end result will only be a further division of average vs elite and further drive the majority of players AWAY from vet end game content. A good game design should seek to empower the majority of players...not further diminish their ability.
One player I know has been struggling for months to finish vMA. Yeah, she's not that "gud", but in terms of persistence, she should get a medal. She's basically lousy at LA weaving (no, not everyone can master it) and has a Templar build that uses all AOE's with Puncturing Sweeps. We've been encouraging her all this time to not give up, and she doesn't. Now you may hurl criticism to "git gud", but guess what? She is MUCH more representative of the vast majority of players than these 100K elitists ZOS seems so impressed with. And guess what these changes to AOE costs and damage nerfs will do to her? It will be a gut punch, that's for sure.
Personally, I would consider myself a good degree above average. I will, if I choose, be able to reluctantly adapt to these frustrating changes and continue my pursuit of end game content. But most people will not. They'll feel disheartened, with months, if not years, of effort negated, and will just say the hell with combat. I completed vMA a long time ago and have most of the vet trials notched on my belt...and I'm about ready to say the same thing.
Conceptually these changes feel like they're driven by a developmental fervor to have balanced mathematical calculations...while excluding the most important incalculable variable of all...enjoyment.
Indeed. Its not a matter of getting "gud" or not, I can just drop a bunch of skills I always found fun, interesting and useful. But this just removes skills from peoples bars, not a definition of fun, its restraining options just because "its aoe".
Then people say "build more sustain", yeah, and deal no damage either in ST and AoE, neat!
Heavy attacks are a badly implemented mechanic, if you want us to use them, make them more fluid at least.
+1 to you, OP.
Additionally, False Gods is already BiS for most Magicka DPS since sustain on live is not very good. Now it's going to be worse.
Yup, also breton and Redguard.
Stam - Redguard - VO
Mag - Breton - FG
Great diversity we have here, lol.
Stam Redguard?
Is this Update 21?
Orc is meta now, dps pew pew hur dur...
2 -
nk125x✭✭✭✭✭+1 to orig poster
Have just returned to game after 3 years and catching up on new vet dungeons and am struggling even now with sustain and this just not fun having to dodge some mechanic whilst trying to HA some add and seeng your dps drop ,,,,,,, then getting some ***** shouting "Your DPS sucks" - Kinda puts you off playing content you have payed for2 -
ZonasArch✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭+1 to orig poster
Have just returned to game after 3 years and catching up on new vet dungeons and am struggling even now with sustain and this just not fun having to dodge some mechanic whilst trying to HA some add and seeng your dps drop ,,,,,,, then getting some ***** shouting "Your DPS sucks" - Kinda puts you off playing content you have payed for
You just returned after 3 years. L2p again first, before you feel bad about yourself. The sustain is there, the damage is definitely there more then ever before, all it takes is giving it a try. Don't give up yet, just keep working on it for a bit.0 -
ThePhantomThorn✭✭✭✭Elsweyr was good
Stam Necro was a little bit op
Mag Necro and mag den were a little bit underwhelming
But builds had uniqueness, different classes having different feels
Scalebreaker was just same dots on same bars. same rotations same dps
Dragonhold will be elsweyr with no sustain.
I don’t want to have to change builds every 3 months grinding, Golding and transmuting an entire new setup and mastering a new rota just to have it nerfed next patch
Pretty Much the reason I’ve taken up tanking0
