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dots will be 33% weaker than Live? How does the math work?
LeoSzilard
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I don't understand how the 5.2.2 patch notes can state that dots will be buffed by about 20% which will result in them being about 33% weaker than they are on Live.
First, 5.2.0 patch notes state, "Adjusted the standards from Damage over Time abilities to no longer deal approximately 2.5x the damage of a traditional “spammable” attack...and now deal approximately 1.25x the damage over their duration."
So in 5.2.0 thru 5.2.2, dots are supposed to deal about 1.25x damage of a "spammable". If ZOS buffs that by 20%, then you can get either 1.45x or 1.5x (depending on whether you add or multiply). Neither 1.45 or 1.5 are 33% less than 2.5. Now I grant you that these calculations relate to the total damage that a dot does, including initial damage. So let's focus on just the damage over time portion alone.
Let's take the example of Twin Slashes. In 5.2.0, Twin Slashes got a dot damage reduction of 63%.
Let:
Dpts = PTS damage as of 5.2.0
Dlive = Live damage
Then,
1) Dpts = Dlive - Dlive(.63) = (1-.63)*Dlive = 0.37*Dlive
Correct?
Now, if the dot damage gets this supposed 20% buff, is that multiplicative or additive?
2) Dpts = (1-.63+.2)*DI = 0.57*Dlive
Or
3) Dpts = 1.2*(1-.63)*DIive = 0.444*Dlive
Either way, I'm not sure how either of those calculations get you to 33% less damage compared to Live.
In summary, I don't see any way to cut this to make the numbers come out to 33% less damage compared to Live. Does anyone else see the discrepancy here? I'd love if the devs could comment on this, because it seems like either black magic or false/erroneous information.
Edited by LeoSzilard on October 2, 2019 1:47AM First, 5.2.0 patch notes state, "Adjusted the standards from Damage over Time abilities to no longer deal approximately 2.5x the damage of a traditional “spammable” attack...and now deal approximately 1.25x the damage over their duration."
So in 5.2.0 thru 5.2.2, dots are supposed to deal about 1.25x damage of a "spammable". If ZOS buffs that by 20%, then you can get either 1.45x or 1.5x (depending on whether you add or multiply). Neither 1.45 or 1.5 are 33% less than 2.5. Now I grant you that these calculations relate to the total damage that a dot does, including initial damage. So let's focus on just the damage over time portion alone.
Let's take the example of Twin Slashes. In 5.2.0, Twin Slashes got a dot damage reduction of 63%.
Let:
Dpts = PTS damage as of 5.2.0
Dlive = Live damage
Then,
1) Dpts = Dlive - Dlive(.63) = (1-.63)*Dlive = 0.37*Dlive
Correct?
Now, if the dot damage gets this supposed 20% buff, is that multiplicative or additive?
2) Dpts = (1-.63+.2)*DI = 0.57*Dlive
Or
3) Dpts = 1.2*(1-.63)*DIive = 0.444*Dlive
Either way, I'm not sure how either of those calculations get you to 33% less damage compared to Live.
In summary, I don't see any way to cut this to make the numbers come out to 33% less damage compared to Live. Does anyone else see the discrepancy here? I'd love if the devs could comment on this, because it seems like either black magic or false/erroneous information.
5
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KingZeldaMaster✭✭✭It's a 20% buff to the ~50% nerf that DoTs received with the first iteration of the PTS. So if prior to the PTS, DoTs did 1.00 damage, in the first PTS cycle, that damage was reduced to approximately 0.50. In the newest iteration of the PTS, the 0.50 value received a buff of about 20%, and 20% of 0.50 is 0.10. So with my chosen sample values, the new DoT damage comes out to be 0.60, which is 40% weaker than the current Live values.
Of course, the actual numbers are likely anywhere in the 30-40% range when they talk about how much weaker DoTs will be compared with current Live values, but that's the general idea.1 -
LeoSzilard✭✭✭KingZeldaMaster wrote: »It's a 20% buff to the ~50% nerf that DoTs received with the first iteration of the PTS. So if prior to the PTS, DoTs did 1.00 damage, in the first PTS cycle, that damage was reduced to approximately 0.50. In the newest iteration of the PTS, the 0.50 value received a buff of about 20%, and 20% of 0.50 is 0.10. So with my chosen sample values, the new DoT damage comes out to be 0.60, which is 40% weaker than the current Live values.
Of course, the actual numbers are likely anywhere in the 30-40% range when they talk about how much weaker DoTs will be compared with current Live values, but that's the general idea.
So you're saying that my choice of Twin Slashes as an example wasn't good. But why did so many skills get the axe for 60% or more? Wasn't the point of the ability audit to standardize? It doesn't seem to necessarily relate to skills that deal upfront damage. Some skills that deal upfront damage like Twin Slashes or Searing Strike got hit for about 60% while others such as Fiery Breath, Crippling Grasp, and Infectious Claws only got hit for around 50%.1 -
Blackbird_V✭✭✭✭✭
✭I'm sorry but 20% is *** laughable. In my opinion standardisation is not the way to go; It'll bring stale gameplay later in the future.Difficulty scaling is desperately needed. 9 years. 6 paid expansions. 25 DLCs. 41 game changing updates including A Realm Reborn-tier overhaul of the game including a permanent CP160 gear cap and ridiculous power creep thereafter. I'm sick and tired of hearing about Cadwell Silver&Gold as a "you think you do but you don't"-tier deflection to any criticism regarding the lack of overland difficulty in the game.5 -
LeoSzilard✭✭✭Dark_Lord_Kuro wrote: »Its easy the -50%nerf were nerfed by 20% to 30%
Nerfception2 -
FrancisCrawford✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭As others have noted above:- It's clearest and hence best to consider pure DoTs only.
- It is generally agreed that they were nerfed to 50% of their previous numbers.
- A 20% buff would take that to 60% in the most obvious calculation.
- In a more dubious way of calcuating, a 20% buff would lead to a net buff of 30%, which would take them to 70% of their previous numbers.
- There's no obvious way for them to get to 67% of their previous numbers. Something in the patch notes was inaccurate.
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OG_Kaveman✭✭✭✭✭. But why did so many skills get the axe for 60% or more?
Because some of them have initial hit direct damage, like engulfing flames or twin Slashs. That has to be taken into the power budget of the skill.
Take a skill that does have not have an initial hit, like soul trap. Say it does 4 damage over 10 seconds. Now take twin Slashs, it does two hits of .5 damage upfront and 3 damage over ten seconds, lead to a total of 4, see how both skills have the same total damage? Now let's nerf them, take soul trap to 2 damage over 10 seconds and twin Slash to two hits of .5 damage followed by 1 damage over 10 seconds, leading to 2 total damage, again, they both have the same damage, 2, but the dot from soul trap was lowered by 50% and the dot of twin Slashs was lowered by ~66%. Do you understand now?Edited by OG_Kaveman on October 2, 2019 4:12AM1 -
Taloros✭✭✭✭Pessimistic explanation: The dev team isn't good with numbers. They think that multipliers of x0.5 and x1.2 add to x0.66 for whatever reason.
Optimistic explanation: The dev team isn't good with words. They actually changed the nerf to x0.66, but failed to convey to us what they did.
Personally, the first explanation seems more likely to me. If they'd be good with numbers, they'd probably never done a x0.5 nerf.
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Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭They said about a 33% nerf over live.Edited by Vapirko on October 2, 2019 5:47AM2 -
RouDeR✭✭✭✭✭
✭1000 dmg nerfed by 60% is 400 dmg 》 buffed by 20% is 480 dmg 》 it is still 52% NERF so FU bullcraps1 -
Taleof2Cities✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Pessimistic explanation: The dev team isn't good with numbers. They think that multipliers of x0.5 and x1.2 add to x0.66 for whatever reason.
Optimistic explanation: The dev team isn't good with words. They actually changed the nerf to x0.66, but failed to convey to us what they did.
Personally, the first explanation seems more likely to me. If they'd be good with numbers, they'd probably never done a x0.5 nerf.
Or, instead of this long-winded answer, you can do some PTS testing to compare 5.2.2 to Live.
That way, you’d have both words and numbers to support any armchair developer lectures.
Edited by Taleof2Cities on October 2, 2019 6:27AM0 -
jaklang✭The DOTs changes should revert back to pre-Scalebreaker patch. There was nothing wrong with the DOTs back then. Only for Scalebreaker patch they allowed for Soul Magic + Mages Guild skill lines to have higher DOTs. Everything was fine before Scalebreaker and now with Scalebreaker all the DOTs damage went crazy. DOTs can't kill people in PVP1
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LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Taleof2Cities wrote: »Pessimistic explanation: The dev team isn't good with numbers. They think that multipliers of x0.5 and x1.2 add to x0.66 for whatever reason.
Optimistic explanation: The dev team isn't good with words. They actually changed the nerf to x0.66, but failed to convey to us what they did.
Personally, the first explanation seems more likely to me. If they'd be good with numbers, they'd probably never done a x0.5 nerf.
Or, instead of this long-winded answer, you can do some PTS testing to compare 5.2.2 to Live.
That way, you’d have both words and numbers to support any armchair developer lectures.
@Taleof2Cities
Cute winky-face but you might want to check to see if the DoT damage changes are actually in 5.2.2 before you get all condescending about it.5 -
Wayshuba✭✭✭✭✭I think the confusion comes from how it was worded. ZoS was looking for the best positioning statement (i.e., PR speak) to make it seem like something good - so they mention buffing current PTS by 20%. Sounds like they are giving you something good and detracts from the fact that you are STILL getting a 33%-50% decrease in damage over live today and, in many cases, at a drastically increased cost.
What made it confusing is the two statements in the 5.2.2 Patch Notes regarding this change contradict one another. They mentioning buffing current PTS by 20%, yet also mention this will result in an average of 33% reduction from live today. Which make little sense.
Whatever the first pass at the reductions were, this is the 100% of target. So general DoTs got a 50% reduction while Twin Slashes got a 63% reduction. Either way, that is 100% of the first reduction. Now they are buffing that by 20% which still gives you 80% reduction of the original target number. If ZoS is changing a 50% reduction to 33% over live, then they are buffing the live number by a lot more than 20% to get to that.
However, if they do the former (buff current numbers by 20% on PTS) you are not getting a 33% reduction. If you take a standard DoT that got a reduction from 1,000 damage to 500 damage and now gets buffed to 600 damage, it is still a 40% reduction.
As for the math, someone should take a screenshot of a few skills on live, those same skills on PTS today and then, when ZoS implements the adjustment, see what it is.0 -
Taleof2Cities✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »
@Taleof2Cities
Cute winky-face but you might want to check to see if the DoT damage changes are actually in 5.2.2 before you get all condescending about it.
I did suggest for the player to do some testing ... before belittling the devs using their appraisal of the patch notes.
I did not suggest that testing had to be done this week.
Of all forum-goers, I would hope that you, @LiquidPony, have an appreciation of PTS combat testing ... versus another forum-goer blindly posting a forums viewpoint on the mathematics of a combat mechanics change without any testing.
Edited by Taleof2Cities on October 2, 2019 4:27PM0
