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Single-damager Backlash is now underpowered, or at least too expensive
FrancisCrawford
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If you're guaranteed to hit the damage cap, Backlash is a pretty dubious skill from a damage-per-resource standpoint. But hey, it has an ancillary benefit as well.
But if there's doubt about what will happen, due to things that may interrupt your damage output, it now looks pretty weak.
Also, Purifying Light is now useless for templar healer builds, and running Power of the Light on a templar healer makes sense only for well-regulated trial militias, if those.
Edited by FrancisCrawford on October 1, 2019 8:28PM But if there's doubt about what will happen, due to things that may interrupt your damage output, it now looks pretty weak.
Also, Purifying Light is now useless for templar healer builds, and running Power of the Light on a templar healer makes sense only for well-regulated trial militias, if those.
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TheYKcid✭✭✭✭✭
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Translation: my skill that deals more damage than a Dizzying Swing while costing only 83% as many resources... is too weak and too expensive.FrancisCrawford wrote: »If you're guaranteed to hit the damage cap, Backlash is a pretty dubious skill from a damage-per-resource standpoint. But hey, it has an ancillary benefit as well.
Translation: my Magicka Zergplar should be rewarded with tons of damage despite building for no damage while standing inside a zerg and pressing one button.FrancisCrawford wrote: »Also, Purifying Light is now useless for templar healer builds, and running Power of the Light on a templar healer makes sense only for well-regulated trial militias, if those.
Yeeeeeah that's gonna be a no from me.Edited by TheYKcid on October 1, 2019 8:49PMPC/NA — Daggerfall Covenant — BGs, Kaalgrontiid
Kalazar Chalhoub — Redguard Nord Stamplar
Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
Kalahad Cirith — Dunmer Magden41 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭How difficult is it to hit the cap solo? Does it require twice the damage output in PVP due to Battle Spirit?2 -
chris211✭✭✭✭the backlash change is fantastic its a huge nerf for xv1 trash cans GOD BLESSEdited by chris211 on October 1, 2019 8:43PM21 -
Darsaga✭✭✭This was so long in the making. There is no justification for this skills function over the years. Useless for healers? It’s a free HoT!2
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IronWooshu✭✭✭✭✭
✭With DOT's being nerfed and AOE's taking a hit, trying to hit that damage threshold to get max burst is going to be something that probably wont happen much especially in PVP while people just block incoming damage or roll dodge out of it.1 -
casparian✭✭✭✭✭
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Fantastic! Hopefully this helps clear the way for more non-Templar healers and more stamplar DDs.FrancisCrawford wrote: »Also, Purifying Light is now useless for templar healer builds, and running Power of the Light on a templar healer makes sense only for well-regulated trial militias, if those.7-day PVP campaign regular 2016-2019, Flawless Conqueror. MagDK/stamplar/stamwarden/mageblade. Requiem, Legend, Knights of Daggerfall. Currently retired from the wars; waiting on performance improvements.0 -
FrancisCrawford✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Could somebody who PvPs please translate those "translations" for me? I don't know what they mean.
Translation: my skill that deals more damage than a Dizzying Swing while costing only 83% as many resources... is too weak and too expensive.FrancisCrawford wrote: »If you're guaranteed to hit the damage cap, Backlash is a pretty dubious skill from a damage-per-resource standpoint. But hey, it has an ancillary benefit as well.
Translation: my Magicka Zergplar should be rewarded with tons of damage despite building for no damage while standing inside a zerg and pressing one button.FrancisCrawford wrote: »Also, Purifying Light is now useless for templar healer builds, and running Power of the Light on a templar healer makes sense only for well-regulated trial militias, if those.
Yeeeeeah that's gonna be a no from me.0 -
Heatnix90✭✭✭✭✭
✭Increase the amount of damage stored from attacks or have the explosion ignore Battle Spirit reductions since it's already being reduced initially.3 -
React✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This change was a long time coming. In pvp both morphs of the skill were way overpowered, causing solo or outnumbered players to be severely punished just for being outnumbered. In PVE, it was literally just giving healers free DPS. Doesn't make much sense either way you look at it.@ReactSlower - PC/NA - 2000+ CP
React Faster - XB/NA - 1500+ CP
ContentTwitch.tv/reactfaster
Youtube.com/@ReactFaster6 -
TheYKcid✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »Could somebody who PvPs please translate those "translations" for me? I don't know what they mean.
Translation: my skill that deals more damage than a Dizzying Swing while costing only 83% as many resources... is too weak and too expensive.FrancisCrawford wrote: »If you're guaranteed to hit the damage cap, Backlash is a pretty dubious skill from a damage-per-resource standpoint. But hey, it has an ancillary benefit as well.
Translation: my Magicka Zergplar should be rewarded with tons of damage despite building for no damage while standing inside a zerg and pressing one button.FrancisCrawford wrote: »Also, Purifying Light is now useless for templar healer builds, and running Power of the Light on a templar healer makes sense only for well-regulated trial militias, if those.
Yeeeeeah that's gonna be a no from me.
Heh, apologies if you intended the thread to be PvE-centric; it wasn't readily apparent.
That said, all my points still stand, even if I conveyed them... indirectly. The Backlash changes remedy a lot of the unhealthy aspects of the skill in PvP—it being particularly effective in mowing down players who are outnumbered, and dishing-out tons of damage on builds which have not made the necessary investments and have no business doing so.
It's by no means inefficient from a damage:resource standpoint either. Unilateral stat scaling makes it much easier to hit high tooltips vs. conventional abilities. Take this example:
A measly 25k max mag, easily achievable on ANY build, nets you a 15k Purifying Light base tooltip (prior to modifiers). To get that with Dizzying Swing under the same conditions next patch would require 50k stam AND 7k weapon damage. It's pretty crazy when taken into perspective.
And the cost is straight-up dirt cheap. 2k at base, not yet accounting for Templar cost reduction, among other sources such as light armor.Edited by TheYKcid on October 1, 2019 9:20PMPC/NA — Daggerfall Covenant — BGs, Kaalgrontiid
Kalazar Chalhoub — Redguard Nord Stamplar
Kalaron Caemor — Altmer Magsorc
Kalahad Cirith — Dunmer Magden2 -
NBrookus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »Could somebody who PvPs please translate those "translations" for me? I don't know what they mean.
There are usually at least several magplars standing in the back with zero damage taking zero risk, using Backlash on players. It's low risk, high reward gameplay, like spamming knockback CCs from max range.
Now for Backlash to be effective, said players will also have to be spec'd for damage (and likely put themselves at risk) to get a payoff.4 -
Gnortranermara✭✭✭✭✭
✭I've mained Templar from the start, and this change is fine. It's only a "nerf" if you're incapable of maxing out the bonus by yourself. Doing so is easy if you have half-decent DPS. And remember that PTS 5.2.0 allowed Backlash to crit. The two changes together are a net buff for PvE Templar. And it removes a major legitimate gripe point against Templars in PvP. This is the kind of conditional "nerf" that Templars should happily accept.Edited by Gnortranermara on October 1, 2019 9:22PM9 -
tsaescishoeshiner✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Can Backlashes from multiple templars now stack? I thought you used to only be able to have 1 active at a time per targetPC-NA
in-game: @tsaescishoeshiner1 -
Darsaga✭✭✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »
I guess that was looking at it from a DD perspective. From a healer perspective yes it has a cost but no longer deals free damage then I guess. Bottom line it is how it should of been for years.
Edited by Darsaga on October 1, 2019 9:48PM1 -
Nemesis7884✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭lets face it - there is 0 reason to slot this skill in pve now in terms of bar space...
again - a pvp vs pve decision - the devs seem to actively seek out skills now and see how they can change them to make them more attractive for pvp (see northern storm)
so if anyone was wondering what the direction of the devs for this game was... pvp or bust...4 -
Arciris✭✭✭✭✭
✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »
I guess that was looking at it from a DD perspective. From a healer perspective yes it has a cost but no longer deals free damage then I guess. Bottom line it is how it should of been for years.
Note: I like the change in a PvP point of view, dislike the change from a Tank and Healerr PvE pov.
Now for the quote: lol, if it has a cost, it's not exactly free damage, is it now? Effortless, maybe, but so is any DoT (pay the cast cost, let it do auto damage)
Also lol at those comparing Backçash tooçtip to Dizzy Swing tooltip: you can cast 6 Dizzy by the time one PoTL goes off and with no condition attached.
Anyway, imo, this is one of those cases when a skill could behave differently in PvP and PvE.3 -
DaNnYtHePcFrEaK✭✭✭
Translation: my skill that deals more damage than a Dizzying Swing while costing only 83% as many resources... is too weak and too expensive.FrancisCrawford wrote: »If you're guaranteed to hit the damage cap, Backlash is a pretty dubious skill from a damage-per-resource standpoint. But hey, it has an ancillary benefit as well.
Translation: my Magicka Zergplar should be rewarded with tons of damage despite building for no damage while standing inside a zerg and pressing one button.FrancisCrawford wrote: »Also, Purifying Light is now useless for templar healer builds, and running Power of the Light on a templar healer makes sense only for well-regulated trial militias, if those.
Yeeeeeah that's gonna be a no from me.
Nobody mentioned pvp here, no one cares to be honest5 -
Arciris✭✭✭✭✭
✭Nemesis7884 wrote: »lets face it - there is 0 reason to slot this skill in pve now in terms of bar space...
again - a pvp vs pve decision - the devs seem to actively seek out skills now and see how they can change them to make them more attractive for pvp (see northern storm)
so if anyone was wondering what the direction of the devs for this game was... pvp or bust...
They know they already have the loyalty of the PvErs (or at least they think so) and since PvP is a complete ghost town, they want to see if they can necro it.
But unless the performance improvements are really amazing, and unless they get rid of everything that could look like a cheat or exploit to new players, PvP will continue dead as a dead beaten horse.
I just hope they don't drag the whole game down trying to lure in new PvP players4 -
Epicasballs✭✭✭✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »If you're guaranteed to hit the damage cap, Backlash is a pretty dubious skill from a damage-per-resource standpoint. But hey, it has an ancillary benefit as well.
But if there's doubt about what will happen, due to things that may interrupt your damage output, it now looks pretty weak.
Also, Purifying Light is now useless for templar healer builds, and running Power of the Light on a templar healer makes sense only for well-regulated trial militias, if those.
The same is true for ground dots on moving bosses... should ground dots follow a boss around? No. Of course when mechanics happen that require your focus over dealing damage your damage will suffer. I don't see any issue here.0 -
Darsaga✭✭✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »
I guess that was looking at it from a DD perspective. From a healer perspective yes it has a cost but no longer deals free damage then I guess. Bottom line it is how it should of been for years.
Note: I like the change in a PvP point of view, dislike the change from a Tank and Healerr PvE pov.
Now for the quote: lol, if it has a cost, it's not exactly free damage, is it now? Effortless, maybe, but so is any DoT (pay the cast cost, let it do auto damage)
Also lol at those comparing Backçash tooçtip to Dizzy Swing tooltip: you can cast 6 Dizzy by the time one PoTL goes off and with no condition attached.
Anyway, imo, this is one of those cases when a skill could behave differently in PvP and PvE.
I say free because a large percentage of every skill we use in this game has “free” effects. Most of the time we are picking the skills based on one function so to me all the other effects are bonuses or “free”. That is how we get a nice casual 2 bar setup VS a traditional 45 button setup of other MMOs. Don’t take the word free so literal.
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FrancisCrawford✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Epicasballs wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »If you're guaranteed to hit the damage cap, Backlash is a pretty dubious skill from a damage-per-resource standpoint. But hey, it has an ancillary benefit as well.
But if there's doubt about what will happen, due to things that may interrupt your damage output, it now looks pretty weak.
Also, Purifying Light is now useless for templar healer builds, and running Power of the Light on a templar healer makes sense only for well-regulated trial militias, if those.
The same is true for ground dots on moving bosses... should ground dots follow a boss around? No. Of course when mechanics happen that require your focus over dealing damage your damage will suffer. I don't see any issue here.
LIke Backlash, ground DoTs have been nerfed to the point that they're not very attractive in boss-only fights. But at least they still have value against trash or adds. Backlash, however, doesn't cleave.0 -
Abyssmol✭✭✭✭✭Increase the amount of damage stored from attacks or have the explosion ignore Battle Spirit reductions since it's already being reduced initially.
Lol this skill has a double mitigation component - damage is mitigated when it is stored and again after 6 seconds when damage is released (explosion). Wait, is the explosion also affected by battle spirit? Do you mean battle spirit applies again to the explosion? Double mitigation and double battle spirit?1 -
Epicasballs✭✭✭✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »Epicasballs wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »If you're guaranteed to hit the damage cap, Backlash is a pretty dubious skill from a damage-per-resource standpoint. But hey, it has an ancillary benefit as well.
But if there's doubt about what will happen, due to things that may interrupt your damage output, it now looks pretty weak.
Also, Purifying Light is now useless for templar healer builds, and running Power of the Light on a templar healer makes sense only for well-regulated trial militias, if those.
The same is true for ground dots on moving bosses... should ground dots follow a boss around? No. Of course when mechanics happen that require your focus over dealing damage your damage will suffer. I don't see any issue here.
LIke Backlash, ground DoTs have been nerfed to the point that they're not very attractive in boss-only fights. But at least they still have value against trash or adds. Backlash, however, doesn't cleave.
So don't use it trash fights. You have no issue. All damage suffers while you focus your attention away from doing damage. Of course it should. DoTs fall off, bosses move out of aoes, and you fail to fully charge backlash.0 -
RandomKodiak✭✭✭✭✭They have already stated they will be looking at boosting damage sometime before live for all dots. First week of pts against 21mil dummy this ability was doing a good 8-10% of my damage with stamplar now that the explosion can crit. So PvE quite worth slotting (for dps), and have to agree that the change will be nice in PvP as well as the ability did seem way over powered when you had 10-20 Templar healers in a zerg.
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FrancisCrawford✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Epicasballs wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »Epicasballs wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »If you're guaranteed to hit the damage cap, Backlash is a pretty dubious skill from a damage-per-resource standpoint. But hey, it has an ancillary benefit as well.
But if there's doubt about what will happen, due to things that may interrupt your damage output, it now looks pretty weak.
Also, Purifying Light is now useless for templar healer builds, and running Power of the Light on a templar healer makes sense only for well-regulated trial militias, if those.
The same is true for ground dots on moving bosses... should ground dots follow a boss around? No. Of course when mechanics happen that require your focus over dealing damage your damage will suffer. I don't see any issue here.
LIke Backlash, ground DoTs have been nerfed to the point that they're not very attractive in boss-only fights. But at least they still have value against trash or adds. Backlash, however, doesn't cleave.
So don't use it trash fights. You have no issue. All damage suffers while you focus your attention away from doing damage. Of course it should. DoTs fall off, bosses move out of aoes, and you fail to fully charge backlash.
Purifying Light is now weak in single-target fights with mechanics, and in all multi-target fights. Outside of that it's so-so.RandomKodiak wrote: »They have already stated they will be looking at boosting damage sometime before live for all dots. First week of pts against 21mil dummy this ability was doing a good 8-10% of my damage with stamplar now that the explosion can crit. So PvE quite worth slotting (for dps), and have to agree that the change will be nice in PvP as well as the ability did seem way over powered when you had 10-20 Templar healers in a zerg.
8-10% of your damage is good for a skill that needs to be recast every 6 seconds?
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SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »Epicasballs wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »Epicasballs wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »If you're guaranteed to hit the damage cap, Backlash is a pretty dubious skill from a damage-per-resource standpoint. But hey, it has an ancillary benefit as well.
But if there's doubt about what will happen, due to things that may interrupt your damage output, it now looks pretty weak.
Also, Purifying Light is now useless for templar healer builds, and running Power of the Light on a templar healer makes sense only for well-regulated trial militias, if those.
The same is true for ground dots on moving bosses... should ground dots follow a boss around? No. Of course when mechanics happen that require your focus over dealing damage your damage will suffer. I don't see any issue here.
LIke Backlash, ground DoTs have been nerfed to the point that they're not very attractive in boss-only fights. But at least they still have value against trash or adds. Backlash, however, doesn't cleave.
So don't use it trash fights. You have no issue. All damage suffers while you focus your attention away from doing damage. Of course it should. DoTs fall off, bosses move out of aoes, and you fail to fully charge backlash.
Purifying Light is now weak in single-target fights with mechanics, and in all multi-target fights. Outside of that it's so-so.RandomKodiak wrote: »They have already stated they will be looking at boosting damage sometime before live for all dots. First week of pts against 21mil dummy this ability was doing a good 8-10% of my damage with stamplar now that the explosion can crit. So PvE quite worth slotting (for dps), and have to agree that the change will be nice in PvP as well as the ability did seem way over powered when you had 10-20 Templar healers in a zerg.
8-10% of your damage is good for a skill that needs to be recast every 6 seconds?
Yes? Sub assault on wardens is recast every 3s and is less than 20% of damage. PoTl is your own version of sub assault/grim focus. If you can manage to make it deal full damage its best ability in your arsenal2 -
FrancisCrawford✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭FrancisCrawford wrote: »Epicasballs wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »Epicasballs wrote: »FrancisCrawford wrote: »If you're guaranteed to hit the damage cap, Backlash is a pretty dubious skill from a damage-per-resource standpoint. But hey, it has an ancillary benefit as well.
But if there's doubt about what will happen, due to things that may interrupt your damage output, it now looks pretty weak.
Also, Purifying Light is now useless for templar healer builds, and running Power of the Light on a templar healer makes sense only for well-regulated trial militias, if those.
The same is true for ground dots on moving bosses... should ground dots follow a boss around? No. Of course when mechanics happen that require your focus over dealing damage your damage will suffer. I don't see any issue here.
LIke Backlash, ground DoTs have been nerfed to the point that they're not very attractive in boss-only fights. But at least they still have value against trash or adds. Backlash, however, doesn't cleave.
So don't use it trash fights. You have no issue. All damage suffers while you focus your attention away from doing damage. Of course it should. DoTs fall off, bosses move out of aoes, and you fail to fully charge backlash.
Purifying Light is now weak in single-target fights with mechanics, and in all multi-target fights. Outside of that it's so-so.RandomKodiak wrote: »They have already stated they will be looking at boosting damage sometime before live for all dots. First week of pts against 21mil dummy this ability was doing a good 8-10% of my damage with stamplar now that the explosion can crit. So PvE quite worth slotting (for dps), and have to agree that the change will be nice in PvP as well as the ability did seem way over powered when you had 10-20 Templar healers in a zerg.
8-10% of your damage is good for a skill that needs to be recast every 6 seconds?
Yes? Sub assault on wardens is recast every 3s and is less than 20% of damage. PoTl is your own version of sub assault/grim focus. If you can manage to make it deal full damage its best ability in your arsenal
I'll have to take your word for it. I've never used wardens as any kind of standard for DPS.
Perhaps more to the point, I don't have detailed knowledge of stamina DPS at all.0