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Backlash Changes, your thoughts?
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HankTwo✭✭✭✭✭Austinseph1 wrote: »The thing is it was either this or removing the crit because the ability could already hit high numbers. Imagine in PvP being hit with a a delayed hit that took 80% of your hp bar that wasn’t even an ulti. A good change? Maybe. But a change of some sort was necessary, this allows you to shoot for good numbers without being able to rely on another person to do it for you.
imo, overall this is a good change. I have almost 7k wep damage to hit 7-8k when fully filled, so now it critting keeps it in line with say NB assassin's will which can crit up to 15k.
Bad argument, assassins will is dodgeable very easily with a loud audio cue. Where is my counterplay to getting hit by a 11k backlash I cant do anything about? Unblockable, undodgeable, uncloakable:)
The damage needed beforehand to load backlash is usually blockable, dodgeable, cloakable.Edited by HankTwo on October 1, 2019 4:57PMPC EU
Stam DK, Magden, Magplar, Stamcro, Hybrid Sorc, Magblade & Mag DK1 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Austinseph1 wrote: »The thing is it was either this or removing the crit because the ability could already hit high numbers. Imagine in PvP being hit with a a delayed hit that took 80% of your hp bar that wasn’t even an ulti. A good change? Maybe. But a change of some sort was necessary, this allows you to shoot for good numbers without being able to rely on another person to do it for you.
imo, overall this is a good change. I have almost 7k wep damage to hit 7-8k when fully filled, so now it critting keeps it in line with say NB assassin's will which can crit up to 15k.
Bad argument, assassins will is dodgeable very easily with a loud audio cue and a 1 second delay time even at point blank. Where is my counterplay to getting hit by a 12k crit backlash I cant do anything about? Unblockable, undodgeable, uncloakable:)
Dont eat 30k damage in 6 seconds?4 -
Zelos✭✭✭✭✭Austinseph1 wrote: »The thing is it was either this or removing the crit because the ability could already hit high numbers. Imagine in PvP being hit with a a delayed hit that took 80% of your hp bar that wasn’t even an ulti. A good change? Maybe. But a change of some sort was necessary, this allows you to shoot for good numbers without being able to rely on another person to do it for you.
imo, overall this is a good change. I have almost 7k wep damage to hit 7-8k when fully filled, so now it critting keeps it in line with say NB assassin's will which can crit up to 15k.
Bad argument, assassins will is dodgeable very easily with a loud audio cue. Where is my counterplay to getting hit by a 11k backlash I cant do anything about? Unblockable, undodgeable, uncloakable:)
The damage needed beforehand to load backlash is usually blockable, dodgeable, cloakable.
60% of the damage in this game is undodgeable, blocked damage with out a shield and sword still does a good hit and will carry over to the skill, and jabs will break cloak even when out of range most of the time. A majority if not all of a templars damage is overtime and most is undodgeable.Aeonhack - AD Stamina Nightblade - 5 Star General
CP1200
Creator and user of "Questionable" addons and game mechanics.0 -
Delparis✭✭✭✭✭It removes group play from the ability entirely, but as a solo player I don't care
As a stamplar backlash is one of our best skills mine in U23 hits 7-8k on PTS hits 10+k.
Tooltip is 18-25k
And no, you kinda gotta get better at stamplar if you're saying you can't fill it up...
20% of 25k maximum copied is 5k dmg under 6 sec. Pretty useless even if it crit to 7.5k.
They should have removed the dmg cap completely to do % of total dmg under x sec.0 -
Casterial✭✭✭✭✭
✭Austinseph1 wrote: »The thing is it was either this or removing the crit because the ability could already hit high numbers. Imagine in PvP being hit with a a delayed hit that took 80% of your hp bar that wasn’t even an ulti. A good change? Maybe. But a change of some sort was necessary, this allows you to shoot for good numbers without being able to rely on another person to do it for you.
imo, overall this is a good change. I have almost 7k wep damage to hit 7-8k when fully filled, so now it critting keeps it in line with say NB assassin's will which can crit up to 15k.
Bad argument, assassins will is dodgeable very easily with a loud audio cue and a 1 second delay time even at point blank. Where is my counterplay to getting hit by a 12k crit backlash I cant do anything about? Unblockable, undodgeable, uncloakable:)
It's called CC. The patch notes literally say counterplay, use a cc. One cc ruins the potential damage.Daggerfall Covenant:Casterial Stamplar || Casterial DK || Availed NB || Castyrial Sorc || Spooky Casterial Necro
Member since: August 2013
Kill Counter Developer
For the Daggerfall Covenant
The Last Chillrend Empress
Animation Cancelling0 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Austinseph1 wrote: »The thing is it was either this or removing the crit because the ability could already hit high numbers. Imagine in PvP being hit with a a delayed hit that took 80% of your hp bar that wasn’t even an ulti. A good change? Maybe. But a change of some sort was necessary, this allows you to shoot for good numbers without being able to rely on another person to do it for you.
imo, overall this is a good change. I have almost 7k wep damage to hit 7-8k when fully filled, so now it critting keeps it in line with say NB assassin's will which can crit up to 15k.
Bad argument, assassins will is dodgeable very easily with a loud audio cue and a 1 second delay time even at point blank. Where is my counterplay to getting hit by a 12k crit backlash I cant do anything about? Unblockable, undodgeable, uncloakable:)
Block, dodge, and cloak the damage needed to get a 12K crit blacklash? Or not be a target dummy and force the templar to heal/tank rather than do damage in the first place? This change has been asked for years and you're still whining when it hasn;t even hit Live.Edited by Joy_Division on October 1, 2019 5:04PMMake Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.4 -
kalunte✭✭✭✭✭templars will still have a group utility without this skills, and this might bring stamplar in average trial roadsters for the minor breach/fracture instead of having it slotted by a healer.
this will be a nerf for many who relied on others to fulfill it, not for the real dmg dealers.0 -
technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Austinseph1 wrote: »The thing is it was either this or removing the crit because the ability could already hit high numbers. Imagine in PvP being hit with a a delayed hit that took 80% of your hp bar that wasn’t even an ulti. A good change? Maybe. But a change of some sort was necessary, this allows you to shoot for good numbers without being able to rely on another person to do it for you.
imo, overall this is a good change. I have almost 7k wep damage to hit 7-8k when fully filled, so now it critting keeps it in line with say NB assassin's will which can crit up to 15k.
Bad argument, assassins will is dodgeable very easily with a loud audio cue. Where is my counterplay to getting hit by a 11k backlash I cant do anything about? Unblockable, undodgeable, uncloakable:)
The damage needed beforehand to load backlash is usually blockable, dodgeable, cloakable.
60% of the damage in this game is undodgeable, blocked damage with out a shield and sword still does a good hit and will carry over to the skill, and jabs will break cloak even when out of range most of the time. A majority if not all of a templars damage is overtime and most is undodgeable.
You will not get that much from 20% of dot damage in that time.0 -
Zelos✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »Austinseph1 wrote: »The thing is it was either this or removing the crit because the ability could already hit high numbers. Imagine in PvP being hit with a a delayed hit that took 80% of your hp bar that wasn’t even an ulti. A good change? Maybe. But a change of some sort was necessary, this allows you to shoot for good numbers without being able to rely on another person to do it for you.
imo, overall this is a good change. I have almost 7k wep damage to hit 7-8k when fully filled, so now it critting keeps it in line with say NB assassin's will which can crit up to 15k.
Bad argument, assassins will is dodgeable very easily with a loud audio cue and a 1 second delay time even at point blank. Where is my counterplay to getting hit by a 12k crit backlash I cant do anything about? Unblockable, undodgeable, uncloakable:)
Block, dodge, and cloak the damage needed to get a 12K crit blacklash? Or not be a target dummy and force the templar to heal/tank rather than do damage in the first place? This change has been asked for years and you're still whining when it hasn;t even hit Live.
No I am arguing becuase I am against skills that double crit, can you not put that together?:) goes against their own change to reverse slice. It frightens me that you were a class rep, not to mention that I guess I just have to dodge cloak and block for 6 seconds, then it gets reapplied so I'll go ahead and do that again... when do I get to hit? Oh and there is dots ticking on me for 4k total while it's on me, allowing the templar to hold block and be on defense while still doing a significant amount of damage...Edited by Zelos on October 1, 2019 5:09PMAeonhack - AD Stamina Nightblade - 5 Star General
CP1200
Creator and user of "Questionable" addons and game mechanics.0 -
susmitds✭✭✭✭✭
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@ArcirisTerrible change for PvE.
Awesome change for PvP,
A superb example on why we need PvP and PvE balance to be separate.
It is a buff for DPS builds in both PvE and PvP, thanks to the crit buff. It is a nerf to any magplar non-DPS build, why is exactly why it is a great change cause if you are not putting in the effort yourself, you should not have auto damage.
And you are part of the skill police to say what we should or should not do/have?
Support roles should contribute to group success (aka DPS in this game), why remove a tool that allows them to do just that?
(and, just saying, but any DoT damage is auto damage you pnly need to "put the effort" into by casting them Once every x seconds, just like... oh wait, just like PoTL)
Backlash has more than 2x the damage of any DoT in PTS and half the duration. Essentially 4x damage of a DoT in a single delayed burst.
Every primarily DPS skill for other classes with a utility side has been changed so only DD can use them optimally. For e.g. Engulfing Flames got a scaling factor to stop DK tanks/healers to provide the flame damage buff fully.
Backlash is a DPS skill primarily, so it shouldn't be an exception.0 -
Dojohoda✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭My first thought was that my PVP healer will not ever need to use it. It's not on my healer's bar right now, but I have used it occasionally in PVP for group utility. It was a good marker to focus down a player.Fan of playing magblade since 2015. (PC NA)
Might be joking in comments.
-->(((Cyrodiil)))<--0 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »Austinseph1 wrote: »The thing is it was either this or removing the crit because the ability could already hit high numbers. Imagine in PvP being hit with a a delayed hit that took 80% of your hp bar that wasn’t even an ulti. A good change? Maybe. But a change of some sort was necessary, this allows you to shoot for good numbers without being able to rely on another person to do it for you.
imo, overall this is a good change. I have almost 7k wep damage to hit 7-8k when fully filled, so now it critting keeps it in line with say NB assassin's will which can crit up to 15k.
Bad argument, assassins will is dodgeable very easily with a loud audio cue and a 1 second delay time even at point blank. Where is my counterplay to getting hit by a 12k crit backlash I cant do anything about? Unblockable, undodgeable, uncloakable:)
Block, dodge, and cloak the damage needed to get a 12K crit blacklash? Or not be a target dummy and force the templar to heal/tank rather than do damage in the first place? This change has been asked for years and you're still whining when it hasn;t even hit Live.
No I am arguing becuase I am against skills that double crit, can you not put that together?:) goes against their own change to reverse slice. It frightens me that you were a class rep, not to mention that I guess I just have to dodge cloak and block for 6 seconds, then it gets reapplied so I'll go ahead and do that again... when do I get to hit? Oh and there is dots ticking on me for 4k total while it's on me, allowing the templar to hold block and be on defense while still doing a significant amount of damage...
I'm not a mindreader. In this thread you said nothing about double crit. You just complained about how not having any counterplay, when there is as multiple posters in this thread have told you.
Can we at least try out the fix that the community has asked for years and believes will correct the many problems with this skill before hopping on the nerf train?
Edited by Joy_Division on October 1, 2019 5:24PMMake Rush of Agony "Monsters only." People should not be consecutively crowd controlled in a PvP setting. Period.2 -
Dagoth_Rac✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Backlash is a healer/tank skill in PvE used to buff group DPS. And buffing group DPS is a huge part of tanking and healing because of how insanely DPS-centric endgame PvE is. The result over the course of a fight with a 100M health boss is not much different than applying other support DPS buffs like armor reduction or minor vulnerability or off-balance. It seems like the main complaint in PvP is the burst potential. Having various buffs/debuffs going that allow other players to do a little more damage second-to-second is more survivable than taking all that damage at once.
I feel like they should make one morph be a burst explosion that only copies your own damage and other morph should copy everyone's damage but release bonus damage as a DoT. This could allow it to still do worthwhile support DPS over an extended PvE boss fight without also having ability to explode for massive zerg-fueled damage in PvP.2 -
Arciris✭✭✭✭✭
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@ArcirisTerrible change for PvE.
Awesome change for PvP,
A superb example on why we need PvP and PvE balance to be separate.
It is a buff for DPS builds in both PvE and PvP, thanks to the crit buff. It is a nerf to any magplar non-DPS build, why is exactly why it is a great change cause if you are not putting in the effort yourself, you should not have auto damage.
And you are part of the skill police to say what we should or should not do/have?
Support roles should contribute to group success (aka DPS in this game), why remove a tool that allows them to do just that?
(and, just saying, but any DoT damage is auto damage you pnly need to "put the effort" into by casting them Once every x seconds, just like... oh wait, just like PoTL)
Backlash has more than 2x the damage of any DoT in PTS and half the duration. Essentially 4x damage of a DoT in a single delayed burst.
Every primarily DPS skill for other classes with a utility side has been changed so only DD can use them optimally. For e.g. Engulfing Flames got a scaling factor to stop DK tanks/healers to provide the flame damage buff fully.
Backlash is a DPS skill primarily, so it shouldn't be an exception.
Sure, lets make all skills primarily used by support roles because of their utility only useful to DD's.
There's a huge shortage of DD's in this game and just way too much tanks and healers... oh...wait...
Then they wonder why this patch is so popular0 -
ZeroXFF✭✭✭✭✭
✭Joy_Division wrote: »Austinseph1 wrote: »The thing is it was either this or removing the crit because the ability could already hit high numbers. Imagine in PvP being hit with a a delayed hit that took 80% of your hp bar that wasn’t even an ulti. A good change? Maybe. But a change of some sort was necessary, this allows you to shoot for good numbers without being able to rely on another person to do it for you.
imo, overall this is a good change. I have almost 7k wep damage to hit 7-8k when fully filled, so now it critting keeps it in line with say NB assassin's will which can crit up to 15k.
Bad argument, assassins will is dodgeable very easily with a loud audio cue and a 1 second delay time even at point blank. Where is my counterplay to getting hit by a 12k crit backlash I cant do anything about? Unblockable, undodgeable, uncloakable:)
Block, dodge, and cloak the damage needed to get a 12K crit blacklash? Or not be a target dummy and force the templar to heal/tank rather than do damage in the first place? This change has been asked for years and you're still whining when it hasn;t even hit Live.
No I am arguing becuase I am against skills that double crit, can you not put that together?:) goes against their own change to reverse slice. It frightens me that you were a class rep, not to mention that I guess I just have to dodge cloak and block for 6 seconds, then it gets reapplied so I'll go ahead and do that again... when do I get to hit? Oh and there is dots ticking on me for 4k total while it's on me, allowing the templar to hold block and be on defense while still doing a significant amount of damage...
"Double crit" is a fallacy from players who ignore the fact that it has a cap, meaning your crits when you build up the damage are useless, because you will have reached the cap in just 3-4 seconds.
Besides, both the build-up damage and the final explosion are mitigated by everything: resistances, CPs, protection buffs. And on top of that, the build-up damage can be avoided by dodge and cloak.
With the 5.2.2 change this is literally the most difficult delayed burst skill to use effectively. In PvP, 100% of the time sorc curse will be better because it's just fire and forget, and so will grim focus, because you can build it up and sit on it until you actually need the burst, which is not the case with backlash.3 -
StarOfElyon✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭irstarkey57 wrote: »This is absolutely fair but MAGES WRATH needs the same treatment WAY MORE.
He's right, you know.0 -
Abyssmol✭✭✭✭✭This is a good change; however, ZOS what about the issue of double mitigation on this ability? Backlash copies 20% of the damage after the damage is mitigated by resistance, damage mitigation set, buff, debuff, etc... and the stored damage when released is again mitigated by all the resistances, bluffs, debuffs, etc... why the double mitigation? Now that this skill only applies to the caster, the double mitigation should be removed.2
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technohic✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Hmm yeah, so it double crits from absorbing crits, and then critting itself. So if we want it to obey the rule and be comparative to other burst abilities now that it only absorbs the templars damage; make it not crit but do 40% of the copied damage up from 20%
Sounds like it makes it more reliable damage for the templar at a rate closer to other burst abilities and then obeys the rules
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NoodleESO✭✭✭✭✭As a stamplar main I think its a fine change, as long as the skill works. I cant build around any broken skill.
This also follows ZOS's back loaded burst for classes.
Necro>blast bones, warden>Shalks, sorc>bound, nb> spectral, templar>pol dk>leap
while they all don't do the same damage, they are unique and have the same purpose.0 -
Abyssmol✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »Austinseph1 wrote: »The thing is it was either this or removing the crit because the ability could already hit high numbers. Imagine in PvP being hit with a a delayed hit that took 80% of your hp bar that wasn’t even an ulti. A good change? Maybe. But a change of some sort was necessary, this allows you to shoot for good numbers without being able to rely on another person to do it for you.
imo, overall this is a good change. I have almost 7k wep damage to hit 7-8k when fully filled, so now it critting keeps it in line with say NB assassin's will which can crit up to 15k.
Bad argument, assassins will is dodgeable very easily with a loud audio cue and a 1 second delay time even at point blank. Where is my counterplay to getting hit by a 12k crit backlash I cant do anything about? Unblockable, undodgeable, uncloakable:)
Block, dodge, and cloak the damage needed to get a 12K crit blacklash? Or not be a target dummy and force the templar to heal/tank rather than do damage in the first place? This change has been asked for years and you're still whining when it hasn;t even hit Live.
No I am arguing becuase I am against skills that double crit, can you not put that together?:) goes against their own change to reverse slice. It frightens me that you were a class rep, not to mention that I guess I just have to dodge cloak and block for 6 seconds, then it gets reapplied so I'll go ahead and do that again... when do I get to hit? Oh and there is dots ticking on me for 4k total while it's on me, allowing the templar to hold block and be on defense while still doing a significant amount of damage...
Are you also against skills that the damage output is mitigated twice? Backlash damage is mitigated on the initial hit, the damage copied is mitigated, and 6 seconds later the copied damage is mitigated again. The damage is mitigated as it is copied and again when it is released. I don't understand how people forget this ***!!!1 -
Emma_Overload✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭This is great for 1vXers, but meh for everyone else.
I still think this ability needs an overall damage nerf. It's way too strong on Live even 1v1.#CAREBEARMASTERRACE0 -
Arciris✭✭✭✭✭
✭Seems like combat related forums are filled with PvPers only nowadays.
If only we had the same population balance in game instead of the total ghost town Cyrodiil has become
edit typosEdited by Arciris on October 1, 2019 6:25PM0 -
Sanguinor2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Great PvE Change too, if only because they finally decided to do something About the bug where there could be only 1 Backlash on any boss (and that was the healers potl for pen debuffs).Politeness is respecting others.
Courage is doing what is fair.
Modesty is speaking of oneself without vanity.
Self control is keeping calm even when anger rises.
Sincerity is expressing oneself without concealing ones thoughts.
Honor is keeping ones word.0 -
Aurie✭✭✭✭✭
✭OK seeing as this thread has been taken over by our PvP brethren, I'll just say that from a PvE and also solo point of view this adjustment makes sense.
ZOS are right in that Backlash in groups was producing insane amounts of damage with no particularly necessary contribution from the caster apart from casting the ability in the first place. From the solo POV it now gets rid of the disadvantage of soloing.
Quite sure not many will agree with this. But as a Magplar solo player I'm pretty happy. Even more happy that ZOS have withheld the nerf bat from other Templar abilities.
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Arciris✭✭✭✭✭
✭Sanguinor2 wrote: »Great PvE Change too, if only because they finally decided to do something About the bug where there could be only 1 Backlash on any boss (and that was the healers potl for pen debuffs).
Can you please explain why this is such a great PvE change too?0 -
JinMori✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
It changes everything for healers and tanks in 4 men groups PvE.
Not only PoTJ applies a debuff that is not that common (Minor breach and fracture) which adds to the value of the support role for both tanks and healers, it also increased group DPS, which is the most important measure in this game.
Now tanks and pure healers (for the content where they are still needed) will have a big chunk of their DPS contribution removed.
The minor breach etc part wasn't removed, the 6 or 8k damage it does on a heal or tank is irrelevant in terms of damage contribution.
If you are talking about healers, they use power of the light anyway which scales from stamina, which healers don't have much of.
Same thing for tank.
And now it will actually be used in a rotation, because crit, making this skill actually useful for once in pve as a dps.Edited by JinMori on October 1, 2019 6:34PM2
