Bring Checkmath back

idk · September 2019

VaranisArano wrote: »

Victor_Blade wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

RebornRequiem wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

RebornRequiem wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Look, it sucks that people you like broke the rules and got banned for it as a consequence of their actions.

That's on them. If they wanted to keep playing the game and doing their good work, there was an obvious choice: don't flagrantly break the rules by abusing their position of Class Rep. Duh.

It sucks for you, but they made their choice and we all have to deal with the consequences of their choice: they don't get to be a member of the community anymore.

ZOS was entirely correct to enforce their TOS and the agreement they had with the Class Reps.

I do not think it is about what he has done, since many things can get you banned in a game. But OP and the people probably want him back, since he still is connected to the game and as a valued source of knowledge he could help out the community, being of value for ZOS too.

If continuing to help out the community was really important to Checkmath, they had an obvious choice: carry on with helping and don't break the NDA.

Checkmath chose differently, and rather definitively disqualified themself from the position from which they'd been helping the community.

Whether others in the community miss Checkmath or not, that really doesnt change the consequences of that decision.

So I guess you know Checkmath or the devs to state those things above? The leak did not necessarely happen by intention or by ill meaning, maybe it even happened by good will. But I guess you are the one to judge stuff about you do not know much but the surface.

Also it looks like everybody in here is very familiar with the exact wordings of the NDA, which was put on the class reps.

What I know is, that Checkmath did a whole year of free community work for ZOS, was very active in several discords and forums and was ready to help out with questions. He created a really big discord server, which is still active and full of experienced players helping out each other.

He somehow broke the NDA, I do not know how, with what intent and on what scale he broke it, just that he did.

When it comes to things like "Someone broke an NDA", intent doesnt really matter. Malice, incompetence, good intentions, whistleblowing, whatever. ZOS is entirely correct to enforce their terms and the consequences of breaking the NDA.

Your argument is essentially "Checkmath did wonderful things before they broke the NDA, so ZOS should pardon them from some of the consequences of breaking the NDA."

My thought is "Checkmath did wonderful things before they broke the NDA, but they broke the NDA. Checkmath ought to suffer the consequences of breaking the NDA."

Personally, I'm not thrilled that someone who was doing a good job as Class Rep wound up throwing that away by breaking the NDA. With great power comes great responsibility and all that. We all suffer for that choice, not merely by Checkmath's absence, but also the loss of respect between the Devs and the class reps. The release of the patch notes early was very disrespectful of the Devs, their effort, any feedback they wanted, and the extra management it took for them to release the official patch notes early before the PTS was ready to go.

Which is correct. Zos should enforce whatever rules and bs they want but I think a 1 month ban and loss of class rep position would've been okay. He did a mistake and suffered consequences for it. Trust and such stuff doesn't matter.

It's not like zos was paying him to keep quiet or maintain the nda. He was paying for the game tho and invested time in it and all of it went away once he broke a stupid nda. If he gets stays banned for so long after recieving no compensation for ever doing community services then he should get a refund for the game along with costs of all the eso+ and crown store purchase stuff.

A free service needs a small ban or something not perma ban losing all of your progress.

That's not how NDAs work. Pretty sure you don't get paid to keep your mouth shut.

Agreed.

VaranisArano · September 2019

Iskiab wrote: »

starkerealm wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Ragnaroek93 wrote: »

I'd support bringing him back. The notes got leaked only 2 days before it's official release, permabanning him for this looks unfair, considering how much he did for the community and the game.

2 days or two weeks. They still violated a contractual agreement. He proved he could not be trusted. Being banned is pretty small.

Yeah, you do not want to breach NDAs. Especially not for petty stuff like this.

Yea, basicly he’s screwed.

Every company will enforce their NDA. Typically because of liability they will also say nothing even if they pursue things.

The issue is the disconnect between the reality and perception of NDAs because no one talks about the repercussions of breaking one due to liability. Companies will pursue people criminally or civilly over an NDA, though unlikely here, but young people seem to think there’s little enforcement.

This is one of the many examples of why people who’re older believe millennials grew up too sheltered and unprepared for the real world. Young people tend to think repercussions are unfair or people are ‘just kidding’ about agreements.

As a millenial myself, I suppose it could be general inexperience. Or perhaps the natural inclination for everyone to be a lawyer on the internet.

Personally, I see a lot of people of all ages struggling with the idea that ZOS is a company who's going to act like a company, as opposed to some happy-go-lucky Devs who ought to just make a game to have fun. As a company, they have to take stuff like NDA breaches seriously, or at least, appear to take it seriously. Otherwise, they open themselves up to a lot of problems.

That doesn't make enforcement of the rules unfair. To the contrary, it means you make sure you know what you are agreeing to and the consequences for breaking an agreement.

BohnT2 · September 2019

I'm not saying he did nothing wrong but the things he did are what ZoS should have been doing already.
The results were that people knew what ZoS is on about, you can say Edward Snowden, Chelsea Manning or the one from the current leaks about DT, broke the rules but it benefit our society and punishing sounds wrong on so many levels.

Elsonso · September 2019

BohnT2 wrote: »

I'm not saying he did nothing wrong but the things he did are what ZoS should have been doing already.
The results were that people knew what ZoS is on about, you can say Edward Snowden, Chelsea Manning or the one from the current leaks about DT, broke the rules but it benefit our society and punishing sounds wrong on so many levels.

Yes, but that is for ZOS to decide, not him.

BohnT2 · September 2019

lordrichter wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

I'm not saying he did nothing wrong but the things he did are what ZoS should have been doing already.
The results were that people knew what ZoS is on about, you can say Edward Snowden, Chelsea Manning or the one from the current leaks about DT, broke the rules but it benefit our society and punishing sounds wrong on so many levels.

Yes, but that is for ZOS to decide, not him.

Did i ever say it's on him to decide whether he can come back or not?

Elsonso · September 2019

Victor_Blade wrote: »

Which is correct. Zos should enforce whatever rules and bs they want but I think a 1 month ban and loss of class rep position would've been okay. He did a mistake and suffered consequences for it. Trust and such stuff doesn't matter.

The NDA is a signed legal document. If all he got was a permanent ban, he got off easy. YOU may think he should get off easier, but from where I stand, he gets off easy when he does not have to hire a LAWYER to defend him in court.

ManwithBeard9 · September 2019

RebornRequiem wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

RebornRequiem wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

RebornRequiem wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Look, it sucks that people you like broke the rules and got banned for it as a consequence of their actions.

That's on them. If they wanted to keep playing the game and doing their good work, there was an obvious choice: don't flagrantly break the rules by abusing their position of Class Rep. Duh.

It sucks for you, but they made their choice and we all have to deal with the consequences of their choice: they don't get to be a member of the community anymore.

ZOS was entirely correct to enforce their TOS and the agreement they had with the Class Reps.

I do not think it is about what he has done, since many things can get you banned in a game. But OP and the people probably want him back, since he still is connected to the game and as a valued source of knowledge he could help out the community, being of value for ZOS too.

If continuing to help out the community was really important to Checkmath, they had an obvious choice: carry on with helping and don't break the NDA.

Checkmath chose differently, and rather definitively disqualified themself from the position from which they'd been helping the community.

Whether others in the community miss Checkmath or not, that really doesnt change the consequences of that decision.

So I guess you know Checkmath or the devs to state those things above? The leak did not necessarely happen by intention or by ill meaning, maybe it even happened by good will. But I guess you are the one to judge stuff about you do not know much but the surface.

Also it looks like everybody in here is very familiar with the exact wordings of the NDA, which was put on the class reps.

What I know is, that Checkmath did a whole year of free community work for ZOS, was very active in several discords and forums and was ready to help out with questions. He created a really big discord server, which is still active and full of experienced players helping out each other.

He somehow broke the NDA, I do not know how, with what intent and on what scale he broke it, just that he did.

When it comes to things like "Someone broke an NDA", intent doesnt really matter. Malice, incompetence, good intentions, whistleblowing, whatever. ZOS is entirely correct to enforce their terms and the consequences of breaking the NDA.

Your argument is essentially "Checkmath did wonderful things before they broke the NDA, so ZOS should pardon them from some of the consequences of breaking the NDA."

My thought is "Checkmath did wonderful things before they broke the NDA, but they broke the NDA. Checkmath ought to suffer the consequences of breaking the NDA."

Personally, I'm not thrilled that someone who was doing a good job as Class Rep wound up throwing that away by breaking the NDA. With great power comes great responsibility and all that. We all suffer for that choice, not merely by Checkmath's absence, but also the loss of respect between the Devs and the class reps. The release of the patch notes early was very disrespectful of the Devs, their effort, any feedback they wanted, and the extra management it took for them to release the official patch notes early before the PTS was ready to go.

I never said, that he should be just forgiven and his account restored or whatever. I said, that what he did needs also to be considered. As much as I know Checkmath is still active in his discord, giving advice and discussing the state.

About the responsability: Maybe he took the responsability of being a rep over the consequences of his doings.

As much as I know the program suffered already a few months before that incident from lack of communaction between reps and devs. Back then only a few reps were still in the program.

If you want to know what happened, I suggest ask Checkmath or the ones who opened up the thread.

valeriiya wrote: »

Did Joy get banned too?

Joy is still playing the game.

What he did was considered, that's how he got the Class Rep position. And then his new action was considered, breaking a legally binding signed document. Him breaking the NDA overran any goodwill he fostered previously with the devs and proved he could not keep agreement with what he signed.

kargen27 · September 2019

"Trust and such stuff doesn't matter."

Trust is what matters most.

Thogard · September 2019

Kadoin wrote: »

nsmurfer wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

StarOfElyon wrote: »

yeah, I don't think the punishment fits the "crime".

Why was he banned?

@MLGProPlayer He and Tasear were the ones who leaked the Scalebreaker notes.

Oi, the forum rules...

Tasear didn’t leak anything. That was a funny meme because she had already been kicked out of the class rep program and was the one person we knew for sure WASNT responsible for the leaks.

It was funny that so many people believed it though.

VaranisArano · September 2019

BohnT2 wrote: »

I'm not saying he did nothing wrong but the things he did are what ZoS should have been doing already.
The results were that people knew what ZoS is on about, you can say Edward Snowden, Chelsea Manning or the one from the current leaks about DT, broke the rules but it benefit our society and punishing sounds wrong on so many levels.

You can say Checkmath's action benefited the community, which is debatable in of itself.

But it sure didn't benefit the people who Checkmath signed an NDA with, the ones who actually own ESO, these forums, and moderate the community. They are the ones in charge of the consequences, and its up to them, not us in the community, to enforce the consequences of the NDA breach.

Personally, I don't think it benefitted the community. I think it cost us a good Class Rep who could have advocated for the community as intended by communicating our feedback once the patch notes went Live at the intended time, not to mention the frustration it caused between the Devs and the Community by forcing them to release the Patch Notes early. In a sense, you begging for Checkmath to come back is also an acknowledgment that Checkmath hurt the community by that decision.

Regardless, it was Checkmath's responsibility to abide by the NDA, and the consequences of that failure are also Checkmath's responsibility. I don't particularly see the argument for leniency here.

xeNNNNN · September 2019

VaranisArano wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

I'm not saying he did nothing wrong but the things he did are what ZoS should have been doing already.
The results were that people knew what ZoS is on about, you can say Edward Snowden, Chelsea Manning or the one from the current leaks about DT, broke the rules but it benefit our society and punishing sounds wrong on so many levels.

You can say Checkmath's action benefited the community, which is debatable in of itself.

But it sure didn't benefit the people who Checkmath signed an NDA with, the ones who actually own ESO, these forums, and moderate the community. They are the ones in charge of the consequences, and its up to them, not us in the community, to enforce the consequences of the NDA breach.

Personally, I don't think it benefitted the community. I think it cost us a good Class Rep who could have advocated for the community as intended by communicating our feedback once the patch notes went Live at the intended time, not to mention the frustration it caused between the Devs and the Community by forcing them to release the Patch Notes early. In a sense, you begging for Checkmath to come back is also an acknowledgment that Checkmath hurt the community by that decision.

Regardless, it was Checkmath's responsibility to abide by the NDA, and the consequences of that failure are also Checkmath's responsibility. I don't particularly see the argument for leniency here.

Lets be realistic here for a moment, we have class reps and they talk to the devs whom have ears to listen but dont. if that isn't clear from the last patch and the upcoming one then I have no idea.

zyk · September 2019

It's not a millennial thing. Generation bashing is something that happens to all upcoming generations by older people. There are examples that go back hundreds of years.

What we have in ESO is a kind of culture war. The enthusiast community of 'hardcore'-minded gamers doesn't like the direction the game has been moving in for years. These are passionate players, some of whom have deep-rooted social connections and over 10k hours played and are legitimately distraught about how the game has changed and continues to be changed.

Even if you like the direction of ESO development, you should be able to empathize with how awful it feels for something you really like and feel invested in to be changed to something completely different beyond your control. Naturally, people lash out and protest in different ways.

Iskiab · September 2019

Yea, from what I saw on the forums he contributed a lot and I like him.

NDAs are to protect intellectual property. In this instance there was little harm, but that’s not the point. The NDA was in place to protect the company and let them control delivery. His opinion was listened to because he was made a class rep, but that doesn’t mean he was in charge.

These kind of programs in video games are becoming weird. Before class reps were mostly kill asses trying to see if they could land a job in the industry. Now when I see comments like class reps feel they’re in charge of something.

Maybe the programs are just better IDK. When I did some there were some tools, if everyone agreed with the devs on things, or all the devs with each other, then you’re getting *** opinions. That’s why you need someone in charge.

Jhalin · September 2019

Checkmate didn’t do anything morally or ethically wrong.

Not that it’ll stop ZOS from being their usual selves

xeNNNNN · September 2019

Iskiab wrote: »

Yea, from what I saw on the forums he contributed a lot and I like him.

NDAs are to protect intellectual property. In this instance there was little harm, but that’s not the point. The NDA was in place to protect the company and let them control delivery. His opinion was listened to because he was made a class rep, but that doesn’t mean he was in charge.

These kind of programs in video games are becoming weird. Before class reps were mostly kill asses trying to see if they could land a job in the industry. Now when I see comments like class reps feel they’re in charge of something.

Maybe the programs are just better IDK. When I did some there were some tools, if everyone agreed with the devs on things, or all the devs with each other, then you’re getting *** opinions. That’s why you need someone in charge.

Responsibility is a tricky thing for some. They have a responsibility to the community which can make them feel like they are in charge but that doesn't mean they are and that can be lost on some.

Elsonso · September 2019

VaranisArano wrote: »

Personally, I don't think it benefitted the community. I think it cost us a good Class Rep who could have advocated for the community as intended by communicating our feedback once the patch notes went Live at the intended time, not to mention the frustration it caused between the Devs and the Community by forcing them to release the Patch Notes early. In a sense, you begging for Checkmath to come back is also an acknowledgment that Checkmath hurt the community by that decision.

I think it hurt the community in other ways. Next Chapter, what might have been an easy decision to let the Class Reps in early under NDA, is going to probably have some discussion, first.

mikemacon · September 2019

Nope.

The boy broke NDA.

Buh bye.

susmitds · September 2019

I find ZOS's use of the class rep program as very bad management and free PR.

Look at what happened to Joy Division for example. ZOS made a major mistake by releasing the Necro class in it's launch state and had to hotfix things like the bash builds. Joy tried to defend ZOS by explaining their intent but apparently any statement of ZOS's internal thinking is against the NDA resulting in Joy being kicked, even though imo, he was a great rep.

[Deleted User] · September 2019

Hello everyone,

With this thread mainly being a discussion on disciplinary actions and even including a little bit of politics at one point, we're going to go ahead and close it down. For further posts please be sure to stay constructive with the Forum Rules in mind to avoid threads that derail quickly.

Thank you for understanding.