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Remove the stun on every weapon to balance with Dizzy Swing
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teladoy✭✭✭✭✭StrandedMonkey wrote: »It's been made CLEAR that the devs want to push a combat system in which any player can use whatever weapon they want. As someone who uses 2H and wants to keep using it next patch, it is to my disadvantage that this is the only weapon without a CC. So I'll just name the skills that need to be modified.
Dual Wield - Hidden Blade
One-Handed and Shield - Shield Charge and Power Slam
Bow - Magnum shot
Destruction Staff - Force Shot and Destructive Touch
Thanks!!!!
I think you are wrong.
Hidden blade only stuns if you interrupt the casting. Almost all the skills in eso are Instant. A very casual stun.
Power slam belongs to a tanking skill line, that means no damage.
Magnum shot, this is a self defense ability for a ranged skill line. The same goes for the destructive touch. Without count it damage has been nerfed.
What makes all this special and different from Dizzy Swing?
This skill is a spameable high DD skill that stuns effectively every 6 seconds if you manage to stay close to your enemy. All the other skills are NOT DD spameable skills!!!
Some people likes to send people to the air smash dizzy swing without stop and use the nice execute skill without stop sending enemies without a chance to the grave.
That is the reason why they took the stun away as the same they did with sorcerer and Crystal fragments many patches ago. So you should be happy that at least you were able to abuse of this skill till now.1 -
Bashev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »Pretty sure they took it off for the same reason they took it off frags etc... high dmg and a stun on a spamable.
Mostly the fact it's a spamable and a stun combined.
Pretty sure they took it off frags because it has +33% proc damage, can be instant and cut half the cost off.
But how do you justify taking the stun off dizzy when there's Crystal Blast?
No spamable should have a stun. Otherwise it is not balanced.
I am glad that ZoS did the change.Plus ZoS gave off balance which is actually great move as you can charge your heavy attack with the dyzzi and then stun the target. Of course you will need skills to land it but that is how it should be in PvP.Because I can!3 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »Pretty sure they took it off for the same reason they took it off frags etc... high dmg and a stun on a spamable.
Mostly the fact it's a spamable and a stun combined.
Pretty sure they took it off frags because it has +33% proc damage, can be instant and cut half the cost off.
But how do you justify taking the stun off dizzy when there's Crystal Blast?
No spamable should have a stun. Otherwise it is not balanced.
I am glad that ZoS did the change.Plus ZoS gave off balance which is actually great move as you can charge your heavy attack with the dyzzi and then stun the target. Of course you will need skills to land it but that is how it should be in PvP.
Emphasis is on "should have", right? Too bad there are still some left.0 -
Bashev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »Pretty sure they took it off for the same reason they took it off frags etc... high dmg and a stun on a spamable.
Mostly the fact it's a spamable and a stun combined.
Pretty sure they took it off frags because it has +33% proc damage, can be instant and cut half the cost off.
But how do you justify taking the stun off dizzy when there's Crystal Blast?
No spamable should have a stun. Otherwise it is not balanced.
I am glad that ZoS did the change.Plus ZoS gave off balance which is actually great move as you can charge your heavy attack with the dyzzi and then stun the target. Of course you will need skills to land it but that is how it should be in PvP.
Emphasis is on "should have", right? Too bad there are still some left.
Which ones? Bow and Staff stuns are on skills with low damage which are not spamables.Because I can!1 -
MajBludd✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Nerf everything that kills me because im too stupid to move out of the way.
Its definitely not the lined up burst that killed you it's just the dizzy you see and whine about.Edited by MajBludd on September 28, 2019 12:09PM3 -
JobooAGS✭✭✭✭✭
✭holden_caulfield wrote: »My death recaps always are a list of Dizzy swing.
That proves to me that this skill is surely balanced. I strongly belive most pvp players like to play fair and would NEVER EVER spam an imba skil
Realistically, what other actually good spammables are there for anything stam that isn't stamblade or stamplar?
Reverse Slice? It's an execute, you need some other damage behind it to make it scale well, and they keep nerfing that damage.
Flurry? More unreliable than old Dizzy with long cast time, if you ask me.
Spin2win? See Reverse Slice.
Heroic, Puncture? Nerfed.
Power Bash? Sure, but it's on a weapon that Zenimax openly wants to not be for damage, so the passives don't really support it as a proper damage weapon, and we saw how high damage on sword and board got treated (it got 2 spammable options nerfed for sword and board).
Crushing Weapon (Psijic spammable)? Heh, good luck getting this to successively land in an actual fight.
Fighters Guild crossbow? Stupidly expensive, and clunky.
The truth is, there isn't any actually good spammable for 4/6 stam classes in the game. Everything else either needs some other high damage behind it (which keeps getting nerfed), is clunky to use, or is on a weapon that people don't want to be used for damage.
It's like saying that everybody uses Vigor, so it must be OP. Maybe if Zenimax gave us more options, we'd use other things, but they don't, so we're stuck with Vigor. Same thing here. If Zenimax allowed sword and board to be competitive as a front bar damage weapon in PvP, or gave dual wield a spammable that wasn't clunky to use, you'd see more people run them over Dizzy.
fighter' guilds crossbow got a dmg buff and a cost decrease1 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »Pretty sure they took it off for the same reason they took it off frags etc... high dmg and a stun on a spamable.
Mostly the fact it's a spamable and a stun combined.
Pretty sure they took it off frags because it has +33% proc damage, can be instant and cut half the cost off.
But how do you justify taking the stun off dizzy when there's Crystal Blast?
No spamable should have a stun. Otherwise it is not balanced.
I am glad that ZoS did the change.Plus ZoS gave off balance which is actually great move as you can charge your heavy attack with the dyzzi and then stun the target. Of course you will need skills to land it but that is how it should be in PvP.
Emphasis is on "should have", right? Too bad there are still some left.
Which ones? Bow and Staff stuns are on skills with low damage which are not spamables.
Ah, and stupid me used destructive touch as spam on my magsorc.
But shouldn't it be obvious that ranged, instant cast (travel time, I know) stuns should do lower dmg than anything melee with a cast time? Risk/ reward etc?Edited by Chilly-McFreeze on September 28, 2019 2:12PM2 -
Epicasballs✭✭✭✭I vote we pitch the idea to disable all active abilities in pvp. Disable all gear and use character templates so we all have the same stats. PvP will be all about the fastest light attack spammer. An option to recieve an 50% damage reduction from light attacks will appear upon entering pvp for those that like to play wih their feet... gotta keep it fair. Thumbs are great.1
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Bashev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »Pretty sure they took it off for the same reason they took it off frags etc... high dmg and a stun on a spamable.
Mostly the fact it's a spamable and a stun combined.
Pretty sure they took it off frags because it has +33% proc damage, can be instant and cut half the cost off.
But how do you justify taking the stun off dizzy when there's Crystal Blast?
No spamable should have a stun. Otherwise it is not balanced.
I am glad that ZoS did the change.Plus ZoS gave off balance which is actually great move as you can charge your heavy attack with the dyzzi and then stun the target. Of course you will need skills to land it but that is how it should be in PvP.
Emphasis is on "should have", right? Too bad there are still some left.
Which ones? Bow and Staff stuns are on skills with low damage which are not spamables.
Ah, and stupid me used destructive touch as spam on my magsorc.
But shouldn't it be obvious that ranged, instant cast (travel time, I know) stuns should do lower dmg than anything melee with a cast time? Risk/ reward etc?
In ESO PvP mele should not be treated exactly as risk vs reward as there is not CD on gap closers. It is not as other MMOs. Slightly better damage or cheaper skills could be tolerated but hard CC on a spamable DPS skill makes PvP dump.
Destructive touch worked only with the master staff. Luckily that was fixed too.Because I can!3 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »Pretty sure they took it off for the same reason they took it off frags etc... high dmg and a stun on a spamable.
Mostly the fact it's a spamable and a stun combined.
Pretty sure they took it off frags because it has +33% proc damage, can be instant and cut half the cost off.
But how do you justify taking the stun off dizzy when there's Crystal Blast?
No spamable should have a stun. Otherwise it is not balanced.
I am glad that ZoS did the change.Plus ZoS gave off balance which is actually great move as you can charge your heavy attack with the dyzzi and then stun the target. Of course you will need skills to land it but that is how it should be in PvP.
Emphasis is on "should have", right? Too bad there are still some left.
Which ones? Bow and Staff stuns are on skills with low damage which are not spamables.
Ah, and stupid me used destructive touch as spam on my magsorc.
But shouldn't it be obvious that ranged, instant cast (travel time, I know) stuns should do lower dmg than anything melee with a cast time? Risk/ reward etc?
In ESO PvP mele should not be treated exactly as risk vs reward as there is not CD on gap closers. It is not as other MMOs. Slightly better damage or cheaper skills could be tolerated but hard CC on a spamable DPS skill makes PvP dump.
Destructive touch worked only with the master staff. Luckily that was fixed too.
Yep, was about time for clench to be viable without grinding pve.
Anyway, I'd like to hear what you think about how cast times should be rewarded and if, at which length you'd put dizzy without the current dmg nerf and stun removal. Back to 1s or would you still think it's overloaded then? Assuming they solve the knockback issue.
Or in other words: how would you design dizzy to be balanced with the dmg and utility of the current live version? Longer cast time ? Higher cost? Interruptable?Edited by Chilly-McFreeze on September 28, 2019 5:20PM1 -
StaticWave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭holden_caulfield wrote: »My death recaps always are a list of Dizzy swing.
That proves to me that this skill is surely balanced. I strongly belive most pvp players like to play fair and would NEVER EVER spam an imba skil
Name one GOOD spammable that stamsorc and stamdk can use. Actually, I'll just tell you right now. THERE IS NONE. Both classes rely heavily on weapon skills, but zos nerfed 2 of them. So now they are left with the only good skill line which is 2h. Before SnB and Dw got nerfed, nobody complained about dizzy being "imba" because out of 10 players you'll see 1-2 using it. Why do you complain now?Edited by StaticWave on September 28, 2019 6:31PM5 -
Bashev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »Pretty sure they took it off for the same reason they took it off frags etc... high dmg and a stun on a spamable.
Mostly the fact it's a spamable and a stun combined.
Pretty sure they took it off frags because it has +33% proc damage, can be instant and cut half the cost off.
But how do you justify taking the stun off dizzy when there's Crystal Blast?
No spamable should have a stun. Otherwise it is not balanced.
I am glad that ZoS did the change.Plus ZoS gave off balance which is actually great move as you can charge your heavy attack with the dyzzi and then stun the target. Of course you will need skills to land it but that is how it should be in PvP.
Emphasis is on "should have", right? Too bad there are still some left.
Which ones? Bow and Staff stuns are on skills with low damage which are not spamables.
Ah, and stupid me used destructive touch as spam on my magsorc.
But shouldn't it be obvious that ranged, instant cast (travel time, I know) stuns should do lower dmg than anything melee with a cast time? Risk/ reward etc?
In ESO PvP mele should not be treated exactly as risk vs reward as there is not CD on gap closers. It is not as other MMOs. Slightly better damage or cheaper skills could be tolerated but hard CC on a spamable DPS skill makes PvP dump.
Destructive touch worked only with the master staff. Luckily that was fixed too.
Yep, was about time for clench to be viable without grinding pve.
Anyway, I'd like to hear what you think about how cast times should be rewarded and if, at which length you'd put dizzy without the current dmg nerf and stun removal. Back to 1s or would you still think it's overloaded then? Assuming they solve the knockback issue.
Or in other words: how would you design dizzy to be balanced with the dmg and utility of the current live version? Longer cast time ? Higher cost? Interruptable?
If you want dizzy to keep the stun it should be interruptible. Crystal blast is similar even that it is ranged it is not OP.Because I can!3 -
evoniee✭✭✭✭it is funny if dizzy have stun when incap stun removed at 120 ULT cost, and now incap have 0.4s cast time on it LMAO
dizzy literally have 4/5 damage of incap, buggy stun = ez combo, legit spamable (lowcost, high range, 0.8s now)
any word?1 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »Pretty sure they took it off for the same reason they took it off frags etc... high dmg and a stun on a spamable.
Mostly the fact it's a spamable and a stun combined.
Pretty sure they took it off frags because it has +33% proc damage, can be instant and cut half the cost off.
But how do you justify taking the stun off dizzy when there's Crystal Blast?
No spamable should have a stun. Otherwise it is not balanced.
I am glad that ZoS did the change.Plus ZoS gave off balance which is actually great move as you can charge your heavy attack with the dyzzi and then stun the target. Of course you will need skills to land it but that is how it should be in PvP.
Emphasis is on "should have", right? Too bad there are still some left.
Which ones? Bow and Staff stuns are on skills with low damage which are not spamables.
Ah, and stupid me used destructive touch as spam on my magsorc.
But shouldn't it be obvious that ranged, instant cast (travel time, I know) stuns should do lower dmg than anything melee with a cast time? Risk/ reward etc?
In ESO PvP mele should not be treated exactly as risk vs reward as there is not CD on gap closers. It is not as other MMOs. Slightly better damage or cheaper skills could be tolerated but hard CC on a spamable DPS skill makes PvP dump.
Destructive touch worked only with the master staff. Luckily that was fixed too.
Yep, was about time for clench to be viable without grinding pve.
Anyway, I'd like to hear what you think about how cast times should be rewarded and if, at which length you'd put dizzy without the current dmg nerf and stun removal. Back to 1s or would you still think it's overloaded then? Assuming they solve the knockback issue.
Or in other words: how would you design dizzy to be balanced with the dmg and utility of the current live version? Longer cast time ? Higher cost? Interruptable?
If you want dizzy to keep the stun it should be interruptible. Crystal blast is similar even that it is ranged it is not OP.
Interesting. Even tho I doubt anyone would use it then anymore. See crystal blast. Even tho I don't like the change I'm curious to see how it will play out in combo with med attacks into onslaught. But I can imagine what lag will do to it.Edited by Chilly-McFreeze on September 28, 2019 7:56PM0 -
Bashev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »Pretty sure they took it off for the same reason they took it off frags etc... high dmg and a stun on a spamable.
Mostly the fact it's a spamable and a stun combined.
Pretty sure they took it off frags because it has +33% proc damage, can be instant and cut half the cost off.
But how do you justify taking the stun off dizzy when there's Crystal Blast?
No spamable should have a stun. Otherwise it is not balanced.
I am glad that ZoS did the change.Plus ZoS gave off balance which is actually great move as you can charge your heavy attack with the dyzzi and then stun the target. Of course you will need skills to land it but that is how it should be in PvP.
Emphasis is on "should have", right? Too bad there are still some left.
Which ones? Bow and Staff stuns are on skills with low damage which are not spamables.
Ah, and stupid me used destructive touch as spam on my magsorc.
But shouldn't it be obvious that ranged, instant cast (travel time, I know) stuns should do lower dmg than anything melee with a cast time? Risk/ reward etc?
In ESO PvP mele should not be treated exactly as risk vs reward as there is not CD on gap closers. It is not as other MMOs. Slightly better damage or cheaper skills could be tolerated but hard CC on a spamable DPS skill makes PvP dump.
Destructive touch worked only with the master staff. Luckily that was fixed too.
Yep, was about time for clench to be viable without grinding pve.
Anyway, I'd like to hear what you think about how cast times should be rewarded and if, at which length you'd put dizzy without the current dmg nerf and stun removal. Back to 1s or would you still think it's overloaded then? Assuming they solve the knockback issue.
Or in other words: how would you design dizzy to be balanced with the dmg and utility of the current live version? Longer cast time ? Higher cost? Interruptable?
If you want dizzy to keep the stun it should be interruptible. Crystal blast is similar even that it is ranged it is not OP.
Interesting. Even tho I doubt anyone would use it then anymore. See crystal blast. Even tho I don't like the change I'm curious to see how it will play out in combo with med attacks into onslaught. But I can imagine what lag will do to it.
That is why I said, that the curent implementation is really good. The off balance gives you a chance to combo it with heavy attack for the stun, resource return and more damage on next attack.Because I can!1 -
StrandedMonkey✭✭✭✭That is why I said, that the curent implementation is really good. The off balance gives you a chance to combo it with heavy attack for the stun, resource return and more damage on next attack.
except there are so many factors that can prevent that from happening, major evasion, major/minor expedition, meridia's set, etc1 -
Fawn4287✭✭✭✭✭
✭D swing is ridiculous, it hits harder than most ults and its abuse is rampant in battlegrounds, they should just remove the cast time and lower the damage and just make it a cut and paste spammable2 -
Diarf✭✭✭StaticWave wrote: »holden_caulfield wrote: »My death recaps always are a list of Dizzy swing.
That proves to me that this skill is surely balanced. I strongly belive most pvp players like to play fair and would NEVER EVER spam an imba skil
Name one GOOD spammable that stamsorc and stamdk can use. Actually, I'll just tell you right now. THERE IS NONE. Both classes rely heavily on weapon skills, but zos nerfed 2 of them. So now they are left with the only good skill line which is 2h. Before SnB and Dw got nerfed, nobody complained about dizzy being "imba" because out of 10 players you'll see 1-2 using it. Why do you complain now?
Ok!
2h : Stamsorc WB, StamDK Dizzy
Brawler with master 2h.
SB:
Deep Slash
Power Bash
FG:
Crossbow.
Bow:
Snipe ofc.
PG:
Crushing Weapons.
DW:
Flurry.
1 -
Fawn4287✭✭✭✭✭
✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »
By making it stamina and single target you leave 2 ultimates to pick from and with brp 2h uppercut can be an aoe, however thats not the point the basic fact is that wrecking blow hit harder than Meteor, dawnbreaker, soul harvest and empowering sweep, if the ability was working as intended it wouldn’t be getting such a heavy blow dealt to it would it?1 -
StrandedMonkey✭✭✭✭when will zos gina hear our cries
is it next week next month or next year
i am left with no desire to play eso :'(0 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »
By making it stamina and single target you leave 2 ultimates to pick from and with brp 2h uppercut can be an aoe, however thats not the point the basic fact is that wrecking blow hit harder than Meteor, dawnbreaker, soul harvest and empowering sweep, if the ability was working as intended it wouldn’t be getting such a heavy blow dealt to it would it?
It doesn't.
Let's take a look at the UESP build editor for current live patch. That means before the nerf.
Without anything spend or slotted, just tooltips on a naked new char.- Dizzy 1.159 (-16% should be 973 on pts)
- Onslaught 1.438
- DBoS 1.273 +1.525 DoT (over 6s)
- Meteor 1.438 (SS) + 410 DoT (11s, every sec) or 1.633 (IC) + 466 DoT (11s, every sec)
- Leap 1.495 (FL) or 1.725 (TF)
- Death Stroke 1.314
- Radial Sweep 848 + 410 DoT (6s, 2s intervall)
For scaling you have to do your own homework. Or maybe, if I find the time, I'll hop on the PTS and do a standard darkelf build with Shackle and Julianos/ Hundings etc. No promises on that.
Anyway, your line of reasoning is a bit off. First off, the official explanation why nerfed it is because it doesn't fit the DoT standard anymore. DoTs will get unnerfed by 20%, that should mean it the excuse for 16% less dmg on Uppercut won't cut it anymore.
They never lost a word on why it doesn't stun. We could guess that it's because they don't want stuns on high damage abilites. Someone can surely dig up the patch notes in which they statet that. Fair game then, but that doesn't warrant the double nerf.Uppercut: Reduced the damage dealt by this ability and its morphs by approximately 16% to ensure it does not eclipse other damage abilities such as DoTs.
So if you ask me personally why they went for a "heavy blow to it", then I'd say it's not because it isn't working as intended. People cried too loud, that's all. But why is that so? I think we have to take a look on the recent updates.Update 22:
Update 23:Uppercut: Reduced the damage dealt from this ability and its morphs by 14% to make up for the removal of the post global noted above. Note this will result in a 6% overall DPS increase when used in quick succession.Uppercut:
Reduced the cast time of this ability and its morphs to 0.8 seconds from 1 second to help its reliability when being used in fast combat in melee range.
Reduced the base cost to 2700 from 3240.
Increased the damage from this ability by approximately 9%.Puncture:
Reduced the damage dealt by this ability and its morphs by approximately 37%, but reduced the cost to 1350 from 1701.Low Slash: Reduced the damage dealt from this ability and the Heroic Slash morph by approximately 31%. These two abilities will also no longer snare targets.Hidden Blade: Reworked this ability from a ranged spammable into a utility skill.
Increased the cost to 3780 from 2970.
Reduced their range to 22 meters from 28 meters.
Reduced the damage dealt by approximately 25%.
See what happened? They nerfed 3 alternatives while they cut down the cast time by 20% and increased the damage back up a bit (but mind you, it's still below it's tooltip from U21, even tho only by around 8%).
So of course people hopped on it. It became kinda omnipresent because what else would you use on certain classes? People saw it more often on their death recaps. So there's reason number one.
Number two is peoples PoV and the lag. They come to the forums claiming that they got hit by a dizzy while being out of range. *** like this happens in heavy lag. It also happens with other skills. But lag also exists for the swinger. Have you tried landing dizzy in a bigger battle? Then you'd see it goes both ways. Can't count how often my char held off that swing for far too long. But Zeni promised better performance soon... again.
Thirdly the knockbar issue. It's an annoying and sometimes game changing bug. ZoS finally decided to work on it by making the animation faster. But instead of going to test how it does play out they straight went overboard again and took it off.
Tl;dR
Nerfed alternatives, bad server performance and bugs led to all the outrage over dizzy, which in turn caused the far to heavy nerfs. Wouldn't be the first time that Zeni bend over to the loudest group.
Or do you dare to say that every nerf was made for the right reasons with all the right magnitudes?Edited by Chilly-McFreeze on October 1, 2019 4:44PM0 -
Fawn4287✭✭✭✭✭
✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »
By making it stamina and single target you leave 2 ultimates to pick from and with brp 2h uppercut can be an aoe, however thats not the point the basic fact is that wrecking blow hit harder than Meteor, dawnbreaker, soul harvest and empowering sweep, if the ability was working as intended it wouldn’t be getting such a heavy blow dealt to it would it?
It doesn't.
Let's take a look at the UESP build editor for current live patch. That means before the nerf.
Without anything spend or slotted, just tooltips on a naked new char.- Dizzy 1.159 (-16% should be 973 on pts)
- Onslaught 1.438
- DBoS 1.273 +1.525 DoT (over 6s)
- Meteor 1.438 (SS) + 410 DoT (11s, every sec) or 1.633 (IC) + 466 DoT (11s, every sec)
- Leap 1.495 (FL) or 1.725 (TF)
- Death Stroke 1.314
- Radial Sweep 848 + 410 DoT (6s, 2s intervall)
For scaling you have to do your own homework. Or maybe, if I find the time, I'll hop on the PTS and do a standard darkelf build with Shackle and Julianos/ Hundings etc. No promises on that.
Anyway, your line of reasoning is a bit off. First off, the official explanation why nerfed it is because it doesn't fit the DoT standard anymore. DoTs will get unnerfed by 20%, that should mean it the excuse for 16% less dmg on Uppercut won't cut it anymore.
They never lost a word on why it doesn't stun. We could guess that it's because they don't want stuns on high damage abilites. Someone can surely dig up the patch notes in which they statet that. Fair game then, but that doesn't warrant the double nerf.Uppercut: Reduced the damage dealt by this ability and its morphs by approximately 16% to ensure it does not eclipse other damage abilities such as DoTs.
So if you ask me personally why they went for a "heavy blow to it", then I'd say it's not because it isn't working as intended. People cried too loud, that's all. But why is that so? I think we have to take a look on the recent updates.Update 22:
Update 23:Uppercut: Reduced the damage dealt from this ability and its morphs by 14% to make up for the removal of the post global noted above. Note this will result in a 6% overall DPS increase when used in quick succession.Uppercut:
Reduced the cast time of this ability and its morphs to 0.8 seconds from 1 second to help its reliability when being used in fast combat in melee range.
Reduced the base cost to 2700 from 3240.
Increased the damage from this ability by approximately 9%.Puncture:
Reduced the damage dealt by this ability and its morphs by approximately 37%, but reduced the cost to 1350 from 1701.Low Slash: Reduced the damage dealt from this ability and the Heroic Slash morph by approximately 31%. These two abilities will also no longer snare targets.Hidden Blade: Reworked this ability from a ranged spammable into a utility skill.
Increased the cost to 3780 from 2970.
Reduced their range to 22 meters from 28 meters.
Reduced the damage dealt by approximately 25%.
See what happened? They nerfed 3 alternatives while they cut down the cast time by 20% and increased the damage back up a bit (but mind you, it's still below it's tooltip from U21, even tho only by around 8%).
So of course people hopped on it. It became kinda omnipresent because what else would you use on certain classes? People saw it more often on their death recaps. So there's reason number one.
Number two is peoples PoV and the lag. They come to the forums claiming that they got hit by a dizzy while being out of range. *** like this happens in heavy lag. It also happens with other skills. But lag also exists for the swinger. Have you tried landing dizzy in a bigger battle? Then you'd see it goes both ways. Can't count how often my char held off that swing for far too long. But Zeni promised better performance soon... again.
Thirdly the knockbar issue. It's an annoying and sometimes game changing bug. ZoS finally decided to work on it by making the animation faster. But instead of going to test how it does play out they straight went overboard again and took it off.
Tl;dR
Nerfed alternatives, bad server performance and bugs led to all the outrage over dizzy, which in turn caused the far to heavy nerfs. Wouldn't be the first time that Zeni bend over to the loudest group.
Or do you dare to say that every nerf was made for the right reasons with all the right magnitudes?
No dizzying swing is the same as when cfrag had a cc on it and surprise attack had major fracture on it, no ability that hits that hard should have such secondary utility, I play with ~300-500ms of lag from OCE on NA servers and even with my unbearable level of lag and barely being able to hit it I still take wblow on a dot build stamplar over javelin, turn evil and silver leash purely because it hits at least twice as hard as these, a lot of the time I use it over jabs because of glyph proc and i can get 2-3 wrecking blows off in the same time as one jabs takes.1 -
Reverb✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Emma_Overload wrote: »Yeah, take away all the stuns you want, as long as we get Dizzy level damage on a Destro spell.
Imagine force pulse with 5m range and cast time. Is it what you want?
If the damage output matched dswing I would happily take that trade. Many mag DKs would.Battle not with monsters, lest ye become a monster, and if you gaze into the abyss, the abyss gazes also into you. ~Friedrich Nietzsche1 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »
By making it stamina and single target you leave 2 ultimates to pick from and with brp 2h uppercut can be an aoe, however thats not the point the basic fact is that wrecking blow hit harder than Meteor, dawnbreaker, soul harvest and empowering sweep, if the ability was working as intended it wouldn’t be getting such a heavy blow dealt to it would it?
It doesn't.
Let's take a look at the UESP build editor for current live patch. That means before the nerf.
Without anything spend or slotted, just tooltips on a naked new char.- Dizzy 1.159 (-16% should be 973 on pts)
- Onslaught 1.438
- DBoS 1.273 +1.525 DoT (over 6s)
- Meteor 1.438 (SS) + 410 DoT (11s, every sec) or 1.633 (IC) + 466 DoT (11s, every sec)
- Leap 1.495 (FL) or 1.725 (TF)
- Death Stroke 1.314
- Radial Sweep 848 + 410 DoT (6s, 2s intervall)
For scaling you have to do your own homework. Or maybe, if I find the time, I'll hop on the PTS and do a standard darkelf build with Shackle and Julianos/ Hundings etc. No promises on that.
Anyway, your line of reasoning is a bit off. First off, the official explanation why nerfed it is because it doesn't fit the DoT standard anymore. DoTs will get unnerfed by 20%, that should mean it the excuse for 16% less dmg on Uppercut won't cut it anymore.
They never lost a word on why it doesn't stun. We could guess that it's because they don't want stuns on high damage abilites. Someone can surely dig up the patch notes in which they statet that. Fair game then, but that doesn't warrant the double nerf.Uppercut: Reduced the damage dealt by this ability and its morphs by approximately 16% to ensure it does not eclipse other damage abilities such as DoTs.
So if you ask me personally why they went for a "heavy blow to it", then I'd say it's not because it isn't working as intended. People cried too loud, that's all. But why is that so? I think we have to take a look on the recent updates.Update 22:
Update 23:Uppercut: Reduced the damage dealt from this ability and its morphs by 14% to make up for the removal of the post global noted above. Note this will result in a 6% overall DPS increase when used in quick succession.Uppercut:
Reduced the cast time of this ability and its morphs to 0.8 seconds from 1 second to help its reliability when being used in fast combat in melee range.
Reduced the base cost to 2700 from 3240.
Increased the damage from this ability by approximately 9%.Puncture:
Reduced the damage dealt by this ability and its morphs by approximately 37%, but reduced the cost to 1350 from 1701.Low Slash: Reduced the damage dealt from this ability and the Heroic Slash morph by approximately 31%. These two abilities will also no longer snare targets.Hidden Blade: Reworked this ability from a ranged spammable into a utility skill.
Increased the cost to 3780 from 2970.
Reduced their range to 22 meters from 28 meters.
Reduced the damage dealt by approximately 25%.
See what happened? They nerfed 3 alternatives while they cut down the cast time by 20% and increased the damage back up a bit (but mind you, it's still below it's tooltip from U21, even tho only by around 8%).
So of course people hopped on it. It became kinda omnipresent because what else would you use on certain classes? People saw it more often on their death recaps. So there's reason number one.
Number two is peoples PoV and the lag. They come to the forums claiming that they got hit by a dizzy while being out of range. *** like this happens in heavy lag. It also happens with other skills. But lag also exists for the swinger. Have you tried landing dizzy in a bigger battle? Then you'd see it goes both ways. Can't count how often my char held off that swing for far too long. But Zeni promised better performance soon... again.
Thirdly the knockbar issue. It's an annoying and sometimes game changing bug. ZoS finally decided to work on it by making the animation faster. But instead of going to test how it does play out they straight went overboard again and took it off.
Tl;dR
Nerfed alternatives, bad server performance and bugs led to all the outrage over dizzy, which in turn caused the far to heavy nerfs. Wouldn't be the first time that Zeni bend over to the loudest group.
Or do you dare to say that every nerf was made for the right reasons with all the right magnitudes?
No dizzying swing is the same as when cfrag had a cc on it and surprise attack had major fracture on it, no ability that hits that hard should have such secondary utility, I play with ~300-500ms of lag from OCE on NA servers and even with my unbearable level of lag and barely being able to hit it I still take wblow on a dot build stamplar over javelin, turn evil and silver leash purely because it hits at least twice as hard as these, a lot of the time I use it over jabs because of glyph proc and i can get 2-3 wrecking blows off in the same time as one jabs takes.
Maybe it hits harder because these are instant, ranged, AoE, pulls and not bound to a weapon line? Hyberpoble and changing goal posts won't serve you well. First you claimed it hits harder than Ultimates. Now you get 3 Dizzys off before you finish a 1s channel. If you're able to weave light attacks between your jabs you will proc glyphs regardless. I'm sorry about your lag issue but that should never be the basis to build nerfs upon.Edited by Chilly-McFreeze on October 2, 2019 5:27PM0 -
Bashev✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭BTW with the new change to Off balance, The Armor of Truth set will be extremely good. 450 weapon damage without a CD whenever you land a dizzy could be a nice buff.Because I can!1 -
NyassaV✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭StrandedMonkey wrote: »It's been made CLEAR that the devs want to push a combat system in which any player can use whatever weapon they want. As someone who uses 2H and wants to keep using it next patch, it is to my disadvantage that this is the only weapon without a CC. So I'll just name the skills that need to be modified.
Dual Wield - Hidden Blade
One-Handed and Shield - Shield Charge and Power Slam
Bow - Magnum shot
Destruction Staff - Force Shot and Destructive Touch
Thanks!!!!
The point of the d-swing nerf was that it did too much damage to justify it having a stun. Incap got nerfed for the same reason.Flawless Conqueror ~ Grand OverlordShe/Her ~ PC/NA | I record things for fun and for info1 -
Mayrael✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »
By making it stamina and single target you leave 2 ultimates to pick from and with brp 2h uppercut can be an aoe, however thats not the point the basic fact is that wrecking blow hit harder than Meteor, dawnbreaker, soul harvest and empowering sweep, if the ability was working as intended it wouldn’t be getting such a heavy blow dealt to it would it?
It doesn't.
Let's take a look at the UESP build editor for current live patch. That means before the nerf.
Without anything spend or slotted, just tooltips on a naked new char.- Dizzy 1.159 (-16% should be 973 on pts)
- Onslaught 1.438
- DBoS 1.273 +1.525 DoT (over 6s)
- Meteor 1.438 (SS) + 410 DoT (11s, every sec) or 1.633 (IC) + 466 DoT (11s, every sec)
- Leap 1.495 (FL) or 1.725 (TF)
- Death Stroke 1.314
- Radial Sweep 848 + 410 DoT (6s, 2s intervall)
For scaling you have to do your own homework. Or maybe, if I find the time, I'll hop on the PTS and do a standard darkelf build with Shackle and Julianos/ Hundings etc. No promises on that.
Anyway, your line of reasoning is a bit off. First off, the official explanation why nerfed it is because it doesn't fit the DoT standard anymore. DoTs will get unnerfed by 20%, that should mean it the excuse for 16% less dmg on Uppercut won't cut it anymore.
They never lost a word on why it doesn't stun. We could guess that it's because they don't want stuns on high damage abilites. Someone can surely dig up the patch notes in which they statet that. Fair game then, but that doesn't warrant the double nerf.Uppercut: Reduced the damage dealt by this ability and its morphs by approximately 16% to ensure it does not eclipse other damage abilities such as DoTs.
So if you ask me personally why they went for a "heavy blow to it", then I'd say it's not because it isn't working as intended. People cried too loud, that's all. But why is that so? I think we have to take a look on the recent updates.Update 22:
Update 23:Uppercut: Reduced the damage dealt from this ability and its morphs by 14% to make up for the removal of the post global noted above. Note this will result in a 6% overall DPS increase when used in quick succession.Uppercut:
Reduced the cast time of this ability and its morphs to 0.8 seconds from 1 second to help its reliability when being used in fast combat in melee range.
Reduced the base cost to 2700 from 3240.
Increased the damage from this ability by approximately 9%.Puncture:
Reduced the damage dealt by this ability and its morphs by approximately 37%, but reduced the cost to 1350 from 1701.Low Slash: Reduced the damage dealt from this ability and the Heroic Slash morph by approximately 31%. These two abilities will also no longer snare targets.Hidden Blade: Reworked this ability from a ranged spammable into a utility skill.
Increased the cost to 3780 from 2970.
Reduced their range to 22 meters from 28 meters.
Reduced the damage dealt by approximately 25%.
See what happened? They nerfed 3 alternatives while they cut down the cast time by 20% and increased the damage back up a bit (but mind you, it's still below it's tooltip from U21, even tho only by around 8%).
So of course people hopped on it. It became kinda omnipresent because what else would you use on certain classes? People saw it more often on their death recaps. So there's reason number one.
Number two is peoples PoV and the lag. They come to the forums claiming that they got hit by a dizzy while being out of range. *** like this happens in heavy lag. It also happens with other skills. But lag also exists for the swinger. Have you tried landing dizzy in a bigger battle? Then you'd see it goes both ways. Can't count how often my char held off that swing for far too long. But Zeni promised better performance soon... again.
Thirdly the knockbar issue. It's an annoying and sometimes game changing bug. ZoS finally decided to work on it by making the animation faster. But instead of going to test how it does play out they straight went overboard again and took it off.
Tl;dR
Nerfed alternatives, bad server performance and bugs led to all the outrage over dizzy, which in turn caused the far to heavy nerfs. Wouldn't be the first time that Zeni bend over to the loudest group.
Or do you dare to say that every nerf was made for the right reasons with all the right magnitudes?
No dizzying swing is the same as when cfrag had a cc on it and surprise attack had major fracture on it, no ability that hits that hard should have such secondary utility, I play with ~300-500ms of lag from OCE on NA servers and even with my unbearable level of lag and barely being able to hit it I still take wblow on a dot build stamplar over javelin, turn evil and silver leash purely because it hits at least twice as hard as these, a lot of the time I use it over jabs because of glyph proc and i can get 2-3 wrecking blows off in the same time as one jabs takes.
Maybe it hits harder because these are instant, ranged, AoE, pulls and not bound to a weapon line? Hyberpoble and changing goal posts won't serve you well. First you claimed it hits harder than Ultimates. Now you get 3 Dizzys off before you finish a 1s channel. If you're able to weave light attacks between your jabs you will proc glyphs regardless. I'm sorry about your lag issue but that should never be the basis to build nerfs upon.
Do you really try to compare ULTIMATES and a COMMON spamable skill in terms of damage? LOL. Dizzy is nobrainer skill right now, there is nothing skillfull or challenging in using it, you just mash that button untill your target jumps in the air, you use onslaught that can't be blocked or dodged because of KB bug, you recieve unmitigated executioner spam 7-10k.
What can someone do vs Dizzy when playing magicka? You can't hold block longer than few seconds, you can't roll it more than twice. It's a death sentence unless you know how to use shade and cloak or you are sorc and you can streak through guy. NO HARD HITTING SPAMABLE SKILL SHOULD HAVE CC. PERIOD. It doesn't matter would it be magicka or stamina skill.I'm done with this game because of ZOS pushing us into Vengeance, because they don't know how to fix Cyrodiil.3 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »
By making it stamina and single target you leave 2 ultimates to pick from and with brp 2h uppercut can be an aoe, however thats not the point the basic fact is that wrecking blow hit harder than Meteor, dawnbreaker, soul harvest and empowering sweep, if the ability was working as intended it wouldn’t be getting such a heavy blow dealt to it would it?
It doesn't.
Let's take a look at the UESP build editor for current live patch. That means before the nerf.
Without anything spend or slotted, just tooltips on a naked new char.- Dizzy 1.159 (-16% should be 973 on pts)
- Onslaught 1.438
- DBoS 1.273 +1.525 DoT (over 6s)
- Meteor 1.438 (SS) + 410 DoT (11s, every sec) or 1.633 (IC) + 466 DoT (11s, every sec)
- Leap 1.495 (FL) or 1.725 (TF)
- Death Stroke 1.314
- Radial Sweep 848 + 410 DoT (6s, 2s intervall)
For scaling you have to do your own homework. Or maybe, if I find the time, I'll hop on the PTS and do a standard darkelf build with Shackle and Julianos/ Hundings etc. No promises on that.
Anyway, your line of reasoning is a bit off. First off, the official explanation why nerfed it is because it doesn't fit the DoT standard anymore. DoTs will get unnerfed by 20%, that should mean it the excuse for 16% less dmg on Uppercut won't cut it anymore.
They never lost a word on why it doesn't stun. We could guess that it's because they don't want stuns on high damage abilites. Someone can surely dig up the patch notes in which they statet that. Fair game then, but that doesn't warrant the double nerf.Uppercut: Reduced the damage dealt by this ability and its morphs by approximately 16% to ensure it does not eclipse other damage abilities such as DoTs.
So if you ask me personally why they went for a "heavy blow to it", then I'd say it's not because it isn't working as intended. People cried too loud, that's all. But why is that so? I think we have to take a look on the recent updates.Update 22:
Update 23:Uppercut: Reduced the damage dealt from this ability and its morphs by 14% to make up for the removal of the post global noted above. Note this will result in a 6% overall DPS increase when used in quick succession.Uppercut:
Reduced the cast time of this ability and its morphs to 0.8 seconds from 1 second to help its reliability when being used in fast combat in melee range.
Reduced the base cost to 2700 from 3240.
Increased the damage from this ability by approximately 9%.Puncture:
Reduced the damage dealt by this ability and its morphs by approximately 37%, but reduced the cost to 1350 from 1701.Low Slash: Reduced the damage dealt from this ability and the Heroic Slash morph by approximately 31%. These two abilities will also no longer snare targets.Hidden Blade: Reworked this ability from a ranged spammable into a utility skill.
Increased the cost to 3780 from 2970.
Reduced their range to 22 meters from 28 meters.
Reduced the damage dealt by approximately 25%.
See what happened? They nerfed 3 alternatives while they cut down the cast time by 20% and increased the damage back up a bit (but mind you, it's still below it's tooltip from U21, even tho only by around 8%).
So of course people hopped on it. It became kinda omnipresent because what else would you use on certain classes? People saw it more often on their death recaps. So there's reason number one.
Number two is peoples PoV and the lag. They come to the forums claiming that they got hit by a dizzy while being out of range. *** like this happens in heavy lag. It also happens with other skills. But lag also exists for the swinger. Have you tried landing dizzy in a bigger battle? Then you'd see it goes both ways. Can't count how often my char held off that swing for far too long. But Zeni promised better performance soon... again.
Thirdly the knockbar issue. It's an annoying and sometimes game changing bug. ZoS finally decided to work on it by making the animation faster. But instead of going to test how it does play out they straight went overboard again and took it off.
Tl;dR
Nerfed alternatives, bad server performance and bugs led to all the outrage over dizzy, which in turn caused the far to heavy nerfs. Wouldn't be the first time that Zeni bend over to the loudest group.
Or do you dare to say that every nerf was made for the right reasons with all the right magnitudes?
No dizzying swing is the same as when cfrag had a cc on it and surprise attack had major fracture on it, no ability that hits that hard should have such secondary utility, I play with ~300-500ms of lag from OCE on NA servers and even with my unbearable level of lag and barely being able to hit it I still take wblow on a dot build stamplar over javelin, turn evil and silver leash purely because it hits at least twice as hard as these, a lot of the time I use it over jabs because of glyph proc and i can get 2-3 wrecking blows off in the same time as one jabs takes.
Maybe it hits harder because these are instant, ranged, AoE, pulls and not bound to a weapon line? Hyberpoble and changing goal posts won't serve you well. First you claimed it hits harder than Ultimates. Now you get 3 Dizzys off before you finish a 1s channel. If you're able to weave light attacks between your jabs you will proc glyphs regardless. I'm sorry about your lag issue but that should never be the basis to build nerfs upon.
Do you really try to compare ULTIMATES and a COMMON spamable skill in terms of damage? LOL. Dizzy is nobrainer skill right now, there is nothing skillfull or challenging in using it, you just mash that button untill your target jumps in the air, you use onslaught that can't be blocked or dodged because of KB bug, you recieve unmitigated executioner spam 7-10k.
What can someone do vs Dizzy when playing magicka? You can't hold block longer than few seconds, you can't roll it more than twice. It's a death sentence unless you know how to use shade and cloak or you are sorc and you can streak through guy. NO HARD HITTING SPAMABLE SKILL SHOULD HAVE CC. PERIOD. It doesn't matter would it be magicka or stamina skill.
Do you intentionally read this wrong to farm some agrees? That dude said several times that dizzy hits harder than Ultimates. Which it doesnt. After that he claimed he can get off 3 times an 0.8s ct skill before he finishes off an 1s channel. That is nothing more of less than what I said: overexaggeration and goal post moving. If you want a serious discussion, than thats not the way to go
Curently i am somewhat fine with off balance instead of a kb (even tho they should have given us time to test how it works out on the new cc behavior). But I am certainly not fine with the double nerf, the-16% on dmg (especially with the excuse about dot power that gets revertet).
Fyi some classes cant fall back on class Spams. Dots are nerfed too. That means less pressure and less burst. But i guess that is totally fine to you.0