Class Identity - Developer Deep Dive

scorpius2k1 · September 2019

Seems we have their attention, which is a GOOD thing...so here's this from them:

https://elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/57025

Thoughts?

Cadbury · September 2019

Refreshingly honest, but still sad.

Enemy-of-Coldharbour · September 2019

Quote:
"To be clear, our goal is for every class to be viable, not necessarily optimal, in any role without heavily relying on non-class skill lines."

And that is the problem. IMO every class should not be viable at every role. You just end up watering-down the class. I believe each class should be better at certain roles than other classes. That's what what makes each class unique.

Cadbury · September 2019

This also could be seen as a gentle way of letting down those players who were hoping for some last minute combat changes or reversals on next week's PTS patch.

ZOS is gonna do what it wants. And there's nothing we can do about it.

Glurin · September 2019

Enemy-of-Coldharbour wrote: »

Quote:
"To be clear, our goal is for every class to be viable, not necessarily optimal, in any role without heavily relying on non-class skill lines."

And that is the problem. IMO every class should not be viable at every role. You just end up watering-down the class. I believe each class should be better at certain roles than other classes. That's what what makes each class unique.

Which is exactly what "viable, not necessarily optimal" means.

Saelent · September 2019

Enemy-of-Coldharbour wrote: »

Quote:
"To be clear, our goal is for every class to be viable, not necessarily optimal, in any role without heavily relying on non-class skill lines."

And that is the problem. IMO every class should not be viable at every role. You just end up watering-down the class. I believe each class should be better at certain roles than other classes. That's what what makes each class unique.

Except then you get the Magdens who can’t do damage, the Magplars relegated to healing duties only (again in the damage front) StamDKs who can only be tanks...etc

They’re trying to do what is virtually (pun not intended) impossible. They’re trying to please everyone, make sure everyone can get into that end game trial...or whatever else.

The point of this game has been from the beginning to ‘play your way’, the fact they have roles at all is going against that and so now they want everyone to be able to play their way in whatever role they want. Does that mean they will be watered down? Sure. Does that mean class identity will be out of the window? Looks like definitely.

In this game we have ‘classes’, ‘roles’ and to make matters worse...two resources for combat for people to focus skills on. There is no way to make everyone be able to compete against each other in a truly balanced way without removing something. Class identity seems to be what they’ve chosen.

I wish they’d chosen to remove the classes themselves and not just the watering down route. The chaos would be a lot more fun.

Glurin · September 2019

Saelent wrote: »

Enemy-of-Coldharbour wrote: »

Quote:
"To be clear, our goal is for every class to be viable, not necessarily optimal, in any role without heavily relying on non-class skill lines."

And that is the problem. IMO every class should not be viable at every role. You just end up watering-down the class. I believe each class should be better at certain roles than other classes. That's what what makes each class unique.

Except then you get the Magdens who can’t do damage, the Magplars relegated to healing duties only (again in the damage front) StamDKs who can only be tanks...etc

It appears that that is exactly what some people around here want. Something I've begun to realize is that somehow the concepts of class and role have become one and the same in the minds of many people, and that somehow class identity has everything to do with being a tank or a DPS or healer.

But what people need to understand is that class and role are not the same thing. Sure they play off each other a bit. One class may be better suited to a certain role than another class, but they don't define each other. Just because you're called a Dragon Knight doesn't mean you are doomed to forever more hit like a wet noodle and wear underwear made out of high grade steel.

Facefister · September 2019

scorpius2k1 wrote: »

Seems we have their attention, which is a GOOD thing...so here's this from them:

https://elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/57025

Thoughts?

All that text would matter if they had any idea what they're talking about. The devs don't know what to do with the game.

SpiderCultist · September 2019

this is weird, sounds fishy

they have never written something like this on the news section in spite of all previous (bad) changes

this has to be like they forsee a total population decline

Ratzkifal · September 2019

INB4L. We are supposed to discuss in the official discussion thread and not make new threads about this.

Facefister · September 2019

SpiderCultist wrote: »

this is weird, sounds fishy

they have never written something like this on the news section in spite of all previous (bad) changes

this has to be like they forsee a total population decline

The heavy investment on the crown store also hints that.

Kel · September 2019

Ratzkifal wrote: »

INB4L. We are supposed to discuss in the official discussion thread and not make new threads about this.

Right?

Heaven forbid we discuss things...on a forum...😖

Iccotak · September 2019

everyone seems to be missing the point.

it's to give players room to adapt to different situations

in overland PvE content DPS is the way to go

in dungeons you might be really good as a tank but in trials you might be better as a healer

ZOS is giving players room to adapt and change when necessary by adjusting skills and gear

MLGProPlayer · September 2019

Enemy-of-Coldharbour wrote: »

Quote:
"To be clear, our goal is for every class to be viable, not necessarily optimal, in any role without heavily relying on non-class skill lines."

And that is the problem. IMO every class should not be viable at every role. You just end up watering-down the class. I believe each class should be better at certain roles than other classes. That's what what makes each class unique.

The game was designed around every class being able to fill every role from day one. Going back on that design philosophy now would invalidate a large number of play styles and cause an enormous amount of people to leave the game. I would stop playing if my warden or templar could all of a sudden only heal. I want to play them as DDs because that's what I built them to play as.

karekiz · September 2019

There is one big confusing mess here. Why wasn't this post made two months ago when scale dropped and the biggest complaint was class identity was lost. I think out biggest question is what are the devs plan longterm as a roadmap. Right now it seems like they have a vision but either don't have the ability to implement it, or don't know how. Ending up with rash decisions and mass changes that felt very un-needed. They might as well rollback all skills and item changes <VMA daggers etc> to Elseywere launch and start from scratch with the ability audit.

Vapirko · September 2019

The whole thing is rambling and doesn’t mean anything. The bound armaments change isn’t unique it’s just grim focus repurposed. It used to be good. Then they ruined it. Then they made it like grim focus. That’s not vision.

MizoreReyes · September 2019

Does this confirm that DK is dead?

jcm2606 · September 2019

If they knew this patch wouldn't quite solve the class identity problem as well as we'd want, why market this patch as a class identity patch? That's what I can't work out.

A big problem with this patch is people went into it expecting some serious changes to the mentioned classes (DK, Sorc, Warden) to help our their identities, but all we got was a handful of changes (at most) that all go in entirely different directions. DK basically got handed nerfs and a rock, Sorc got handed mediocrity in its purest forms, and Warden got handed some generic buffs that don't actually give it an identity. Look at most of the feedback, and that's generally what people are complaining about.

People went into it expecting as much, because Zenimax themselves told us this.

In Update 24 we are giving Dragonknights, Wardens, and Sorcerers several updates to reinforce class identity, and in some cases, grant new gameplay options.

Again, 2 of DK's changes were straight up nerfs (Embers, Engulfing), 1 was basically pointless as nobody complained about what they buffed (Molten Weapons), 1 is just a sad joke (Stonefist). 1 of Sorc's changes destroyed one morph (Streak) and over-buffed the other to the point where it's basically asking to be nerfed (Ball of Lightning), 1 is a sad joke (stam pet), and 1 is good in concept but needs some numbers adjustments (Bound Armaments). Most of Warden's changes went in entirely different directions, with no actual synergy between the skill and the rest of the class kit, making them look like just ordinary buffs/adjustments, not identity adjustments.

If they said that they plan on making many steps towards improving class identity over the next few patches, starting now, I think the outrage would at least be a little quieter. But they didn't, so here we are.

Arandear · September 2019

Refreshing to see this post but still... Just looking forward to seeing the new PTS patch notes now.

GeorgeBlack · September 2019

2022 I suppose?

JumpmanLane · September 2019

How exactly does making MagDk’s drop embers, drop Engulfing, DROP DOTS, make theee unused skills promote “fantasy play patterns” whatever gobbledygook and thus give DK identity lol.

Come on. Revert Structured Entropy, revert Soul Trap back to before they were overtuned. Drop these silly standards and give us some skills we can actually use. Not cheese or trash.

Iskiab · September 2019

Yea. Good read... I fear a merciless mitigation nerf so pve NBs will be happy. Hope I’m wrong.

MisterBigglesworth · September 2019

I think it's time to get rid of the Major/Minor buffs system.
Make them class-specific buffs that don't have to be standardized.

Also, each class gets it's own unique Champion System tree
Cut out half of the weapon/guild/world skills and replace with and equal amount (or more) of additional class skills

FrancisCrawford · September 2019

That article makes no sense unless they envision class DPS skills being more powerful (not necessarily just doing more damage, but more worth slotting overall) than class-independent ones. So presumably they really mean it when they suggest that first they're making all skills equal, and then they'll make them unequal again.

This pace of change seems likely to continue for a while ...

Ingel_Riday · September 2019

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

That article makes no sense unless they envision class DPS skills being more powerful (not necessarily just doing more damage, but more worth slotting overall) than class-independent ones. So presumably they really mean it when they suggest that first they're making all skills equal, and then they'll make them unequal again.

This pace of change seems likely to continue for a while ...

I'm getting that impression, too. One person here mentioned slotting out burning embers and engulfing flames, but I don't have anything worthwhile to replace them with. They were my bread and butter.

Maybe I just suck during Update 24 until Update 25 comes along and they go, "hey... dragonknights damage dealers are meant to be dot-focused after all. We are going to revert damage nerfs to class-based dots and tweak a passive so that it reduces dot magicka costs by 15%. There. Almost like you were before. This is your niche, and you shouldn't be using entropy or soul trap. Blockade still sucks too, but class identity" and so on?

I don't know. It's a weird scenario, dude. *shrug* Odd times. Haha

Good to know that they are listening, though. It is appreciated. Again, I don't mind if I'm not supposed to be dot-based... but then my bread and butter ardent flame skills need to change away from dots. Let me know what play pattern and role a dragonknight dps is supposed to do and I'll do it. I have no idea right now. I thought I did, but this update makes it clear that I'm not on the same page with Zenimax Online Studios. :-D

jcm2606 · September 2019

MisterBigglesworth wrote: »

I think it's time to get rid of the Major/Minor buffs system.
Make them class-specific buffs that don't have to be standardized.

Also, each class gets it's own unique Champion System tree
Cut out half of the weapon/guild/world skills and replace with and equal amount (or more) of additional class skills

]I think it's time to get rid of the Major/Minor buffs system.
Make them class-specific buffs that don't have to be standardized.

I don't think this is a good idea. All classes should have access to certain baseline buffs (Major Sorcery/Brutality, Major Resolve, etc), with other buffs only having limited accessibility tied to specific classes (Minor Brutality to DK, Major Vuln to Necro, etc), as it currently is now.

Cut out half of the weapon/guild/world skills and replace with and equal amount (or more) of additional class skills

Nor this. At the least, weapon skills should offer a "complete" kit to fill the blanks within class kits, as Zenimax mentions in the article, but shouldn't offer much synergy with other kits, namely your class kit.

That's how it should be, IMO. Class skills should offer a very specific synergy with the rest of the kit, which pushes people into using generic skills to either fill in the blanks, or act as alternatives in cases where they don't enjoy the synergy.

The choice should always be there, and for the choice to be there, generic skills do need to offer a "complete" kit, the kit just shouldn't have that much depth to it.

Also, each class gets it's own unique Champion System tree

I think this is a good idea, though, for the long term. I'd like to see a replacement for CP that opens up more build opportunities specific to each class, with actual choices having to be made in how you use it. That's honestly where CP falters, IMO. It gives you so much power, without asking you to make choices. You can have damage, defense, and sustain, all at the same time, without consequence, without sacrifice.

You don't really see it that much in PvE, but you definitely see it in PvP where CP allows players to build almost entirely into damage, and still be able to sustain themselves throughout a fight thanks to CP carrying their defense and sustain. IMO, if you want something, you should have to build for it, and building for it means taking up spots in your build that could have been used on other things, it means you have to make sacrifices in what you choose to build for.

Mr_Walker · September 2019

They sure do talk pretty....

Mr_Walker · September 2019

karekiz wrote: »

They might as well rollback all skills and item changes <VMA daggers etc> to Elseywere launch and start from scratch with the ability audit.

I'm a little bemused that they are going hog-wild with changes before completing their "audit". Step 1 in any project - an analysis of what you have, v what you need/want.

Seems to me they're just flinging poo at a wall, and seeing what happens.

Nemesis7884 · September 2019

FrancisCrawford wrote: »

That article makes no sense unless they envision class DPS skills being more powerful (not necessarily just doing more damage, but more worth slotting overall) than class-independent ones. So presumably they really mean it when they suggest that first they're making all skills equal, and then they'll make them unequal again.

This pace of change seems likely to continue for a while ...

i dont necessarily think thats a bad approach to start with a standardized template for everyone and then see how you can tune skills towards the defined class identity while starting from the same base... i think this might be a very good approach actually...BUT

they should do all this iteration soley on the pts and release it to the official server once they have all figured out and not before...

Vhozek · September 2019

Normie problems call for normie solutions.
Let us change our class on the fly.
You might as well go there.

JumpmanLane · September 2019

They should fire some people. Start from scratch...