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Remove cap on Engulfing Flames
Olupajmibanan
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The idea of Engulfing Flames debuff scaling with Spell Damage is good. But, currently tanks can just switch to Nirnhoned one-hander and with Minor and Major Courage amplified by Sorcery buffs, they can achieve 7% Engulfing Flames debuff. Most groups will accept 3% fire damage loss rather than taking magDK. Unlike other classes, magDK was reliant on dots and with their removal magDK is really at the bottom end of the dps spectre.
While the ideal solution is to buff magDK to a state where it is competitive with other melee DDs, ZoS stubbornly refuse any significant buffs to even PvE magDK after 1.6. PvP magDK godmode.
So we must stick with the idea of magDK bringing unique group utility. The idea nice, but the problem is the 10% cap on Engulfing Flames. If we remove the cap, tanks can still provide basic version of the debuff when magDK is not present. But, if we decide to take magDK to our trial groups, it would be much more of a benefit, because magDK with right setup could push great numbers on the debuff.
Please remove the 10% cap on Engulfing Flames, you would help magDKs to find a trial spot.
Edited by Olupajmibanan on September 25, 2019 6:11AM While the ideal solution is to buff magDK to a state where it is competitive with other melee DDs, ZoS stubbornly refuse any significant buffs to even PvE magDK after 1.6. PvP magDK godmode.
So we must stick with the idea of magDK bringing unique group utility. The idea nice, but the problem is the 10% cap on Engulfing Flames. If we remove the cap, tanks can still provide basic version of the debuff when magDK is not present. But, if we decide to take magDK to our trial groups, it would be much more of a benefit, because magDK with right setup could push great numbers on the debuff.
Please remove the 10% cap on Engulfing Flames, you would help magDKs to find a trial spot.
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satanio✭✭✭✭Have you calculated any estimated % value that could be hit without a 10% cap?Edited by satanio on September 25, 2019 5:47PM0
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Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Have you calculated any estimated % value that could be hit without a 10% cap?
Without building specifically for max spell damage using just my standard trial setup (Zaan, False God, Zens Redress, Maelstrom Inferno) I would do 12% debuff. Switching Zen's Redress to Burning Spellweave would bring me to 14%.0 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »Have you calculated any estimated % value that could be hit without a 10% cap?
Without building specifically for max spell damage using just my standard trial setup (Zaan, False God, Zens Redress, Maelstrom Inferno) I would do 12% debuff. Switching Zen's Redress to Burning Spellweave would bring me to 14%.
Seems like the max you could reasonably hit would be Perf Siroria + Spell Strat + 1 Kena + 1 Balorgh with Nirnhoned front bar, infused Berserker back, Major and Minor Courage and Sorcery, and 7 divines Apprentice Stone. Total is 6.5k Spell Damage for 19%. That build would be pretty terrible though, lacking crit chance, crit damage, sustain, damage procs, and Max Magicka. Could maybe hit 20% if you give up Bloodthirsty for 3 Infused Spell Damage jewelry.
I think this could be a cool idea. Even if the Engulfing buff ended up more powerful than in Scalebreaker, there is going to be less flame damage in general, so it evens out. Most builds will by dropping Scalding Rune and Flame Reach, so really only Wall (which is weak now), Light Attacks, and maybe a Flame glyph (If Absorb Mag is not required for sustain) will get buffed. Even class skills like Vamp Bane and Burning Embers are hard to justify slotting in their PTS state.
Basically in Scalebreaker Engulfing was 10% on 40-50% of most builds’ damage, so 4-5% overall. In Dragonhold it could be up to 20% on 25-30% of most builds’ damage or 5-6% overall on a MagDK buff build (taking a personal loss), or 7% on that same 25-30% if used on a tank for about 2% DPS increase (similar to pre-Scalebreaker).Edited by WrathOfInnos on September 25, 2019 7:35PM0 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »Have you calculated any estimated % value that could be hit without a 10% cap?
Without building specifically for max spell damage using just my standard trial setup (Zaan, False God, Zens Redress, Maelstrom Inferno) I would do 12% debuff. Switching Zen's Redress to Burning Spellweave would bring me to 14%.
Seems like the max you could reasonably hit would be Perf Siroria + Spell Strat + 1 Kena + 1 Balorgh with Nirnhoned front bar, infused Berserker back, Major and Minor Courage and Sorcery, and 7 divines Apprentice Stone. Total is 6.5k Spell Damage for 19%. That build would be pretty terrible though, lacking crit chance, crit damage, sustain, damage procs, and Max Magicka. Could maybe hit 20% if you give up Bloodthirsty for 3 Infused Spell Damage jewelry.
I think this could be a cool idea. Even if the Engulfing buff ended up more powerful than in Scalebreaker, there is going to be less flame damage in general, so it evens out. Most builds will by dropping Scalding Rune and Flame Reach, so really only Wall (which is weak now), Light Attacks, and maybe a Flame glyph (If Absorb Mag is not required for sustain) will get buffed. Even class skills like Vamp Bane and Burning Embers are hard to justify slotting in their PTS state.
Basically in Scalebreaker Engulfing was 10% on 40-50% of most builds’ damage, so 4-5% overall. In Dragonhold it could be up to 20% on 25-30% of most builds’ damage or 5-6% overall on a MagDK buff build (taking a personal loss), or 7% on that same 25-30% if used on a tank for about 2% DPS increase (similar to pre-Scalebreaker).
Not sure if Spell Strategist works with new Engulfing Flames. For example, Elemental Succession doesn't work.
Cap removal is bringing Zenimax's idea to give magDK group utility unsubstitutable by tanks to final state.Edited by Olupajmibanan on September 25, 2019 7:48PM0 -
T3hasiangod✭✭✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »Have you calculated any estimated % value that could be hit without a 10% cap?
Without building specifically for max spell damage using just my standard trial setup (Zaan, False God, Zens Redress, Maelstrom Inferno) I would do 12% debuff. Switching Zen's Redress to Burning Spellweave would bring me to 14%.
Seems like the max you could reasonably hit would be Perf Siroria + Spell Strat + 1 Kena + 1 Balorgh with Nirnhoned front bar, infused Berserker back, Major and Minor Courage and Sorcery, and 7 divines Apprentice Stone. Total is 6.5k Spell Damage for 19%. That build would be pretty terrible though, lacking crit chance, crit damage, sustain, damage procs, and Max Magicka. Could maybe hit 20% if you give up Bloodthirsty for 3 Infused Spell Damage jewelry.
I think this could be a cool idea. Even if the Engulfing buff ended up more powerful than in Scalebreaker, there is going to be less flame damage in general, so it evens out. Most builds will by dropping Scalding Rune and Flame Reach, so really only Wall (which is weak now), Light Attacks, and maybe a Flame glyph (If Absorb Mag is not required for sustain) will get buffed. Even class skills like Vamp Bane and Burning Embers are hard to justify slotting in their PTS state.
Basically in Scalebreaker Engulfing was 10% on 40-50% of most builds’ damage, so 4-5% overall. In Dragonhold it could be up to 20% on 25-30% of most builds’ damage or 5-6% overall on a MagDK buff build (taking a personal loss), or 7% on that same 25-30% if used on a tank for about 2% DPS increase (similar to pre-Scalebreaker).
Not sure if Spell Strategist works with new Engulfing Flames. For example, Elemental Succession doesn't work.
Cap removal is bringing Zenimax's idea to give magDK group utility unsubstitutable by tanks to final state.
Spell Strategist and other "increase Spell Damage by x when y is happening" will not scale. From what I've been able to gather, Engulfing Flames takes your character sheet Spell Damage.1 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭T3hasiangod wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »Have you calculated any estimated % value that could be hit without a 10% cap?
Without building specifically for max spell damage using just my standard trial setup (Zaan, False God, Zens Redress, Maelstrom Inferno) I would do 12% debuff. Switching Zen's Redress to Burning Spellweave would bring me to 14%.
Seems like the max you could reasonably hit would be Perf Siroria + Spell Strat + 1 Kena + 1 Balorgh with Nirnhoned front bar, infused Berserker back, Major and Minor Courage and Sorcery, and 7 divines Apprentice Stone. Total is 6.5k Spell Damage for 19%. That build would be pretty terrible though, lacking crit chance, crit damage, sustain, damage procs, and Max Magicka. Could maybe hit 20% if you give up Bloodthirsty for 3 Infused Spell Damage jewelry.
I think this could be a cool idea. Even if the Engulfing buff ended up more powerful than in Scalebreaker, there is going to be less flame damage in general, so it evens out. Most builds will by dropping Scalding Rune and Flame Reach, so really only Wall (which is weak now), Light Attacks, and maybe a Flame glyph (If Absorb Mag is not required for sustain) will get buffed. Even class skills like Vamp Bane and Burning Embers are hard to justify slotting in their PTS state.
Basically in Scalebreaker Engulfing was 10% on 40-50% of most builds’ damage, so 4-5% overall. In Dragonhold it could be up to 20% on 25-30% of most builds’ damage or 5-6% overall on a MagDK buff build (taking a personal loss), or 7% on that same 25-30% if used on a tank for about 2% DPS increase (similar to pre-Scalebreaker).
Not sure if Spell Strategist works with new Engulfing Flames. For example, Elemental Succession doesn't work.
Cap removal is bringing Zenimax's idea to give magDK group utility unsubstitutable by tanks to final state.
Spell Strategist and other "increase Spell Damage by x when y is happening" will not scale. From what I've been able to gather, Engulfing Flames takes your character sheet Spell Damage.
I'll add another observation. The debuff scales dynamicaly with your CURRENT spell damage. It is not fixed x% for entire duration of Engulfing Flames debuff. When your spell damage falls (e.g. due to Sorcery buffs wearing off), the debuff will automaticaly scale down as well.Edited by Olupajmibanan on September 25, 2019 8:01PM0 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »T3hasiangod wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »Have you calculated any estimated % value that could be hit without a 10% cap?
Without building specifically for max spell damage using just my standard trial setup (Zaan, False God, Zens Redress, Maelstrom Inferno) I would do 12% debuff. Switching Zen's Redress to Burning Spellweave would bring me to 14%.
Seems like the max you could reasonably hit would be Perf Siroria + Spell Strat + 1 Kena + 1 Balorgh with Nirnhoned front bar, infused Berserker back, Major and Minor Courage and Sorcery, and 7 divines Apprentice Stone. Total is 6.5k Spell Damage for 19%. That build would be pretty terrible though, lacking crit chance, crit damage, sustain, damage procs, and Max Magicka. Could maybe hit 20% if you give up Bloodthirsty for 3 Infused Spell Damage jewelry.
I think this could be a cool idea. Even if the Engulfing buff ended up more powerful than in Scalebreaker, there is going to be less flame damage in general, so it evens out. Most builds will by dropping Scalding Rune and Flame Reach, so really only Wall (which is weak now), Light Attacks, and maybe a Flame glyph (If Absorb Mag is not required for sustain) will get buffed. Even class skills like Vamp Bane and Burning Embers are hard to justify slotting in their PTS state.
Basically in Scalebreaker Engulfing was 10% on 40-50% of most builds’ damage, so 4-5% overall. In Dragonhold it could be up to 20% on 25-30% of most builds’ damage or 5-6% overall on a MagDK buff build (taking a personal loss), or 7% on that same 25-30% if used on a tank for about 2% DPS increase (similar to pre-Scalebreaker).
Not sure if Spell Strategist works with new Engulfing Flames. For example, Elemental Succession doesn't work.
Cap removal is bringing Zenimax's idea to give magDK group utility unsubstitutable by tanks to final state.
Spell Strategist and other "increase Spell Damage by x when y is happening" will not scale. From what I've been able to gather, Engulfing Flames takes your character sheet Spell Damage.
I'll add another observation. The debuff scales dynamicaly with your CURRENT spell damage. It is not fixed x% for entire duration of Engulfing Flames debuff. When your spell damage falls (e.g. due to Sorcery buffs wearing off), the debuff will automaticaly scale down as well.
Interesting, so forget Spell Strat. And if it dynamically scales then things like BSW or Scathing Mage would not work very well. Even a Nirnhoned front bar would not be great if it still scales down when you bar swap, and it would not be worth going double nirn and giving up the Infused Berserker.
The best option would probably be New Moon Acolyte then (RIP sustain, many heavy attacks required). Max would be 19% bonus in that case, and that’s with Infused jewelry and 100% uptime on 20 Siroria stacks. A more reasonable build would probably peak at around 15%.0 -
lucky_Sage✭✭✭✭✭why would you take the debuff anyhow when you just bring all stamcros to your trail group so flame dmg buff I uslessDC PC NA
Magdk - main
Stamcro - alt
AD PS4 NA -retired (PC runs way better to play on console)
magdk
magblade
stamplar
magden
magsorc1 -
RouDeR✭✭✭✭✭
✭the cap is dull i agree. I mean Who runs more than 3k-3.5k raw spell damage on a Mag DK in PvP or PvE0 -
Quasaur✭✭Engulfing Flames with a higher buff value would be interesting.
I still support bringing back Engulfing Flames as it was with a 10% buff from ANY DK who uses it along with having some damage.
ZOS, why do you think people play the classes they do? People will play MagDKs if they are strong. Changing Engulfing Flames to require very, very high spell damage for the buff on a very weak DoT is likely to result in no one bothering to slot it. No one will bring MagDKs to a trial, PVP group, or anything else if they bring less to the group in useful buffs or raw power than any other class.
Testing on the PTS, my current live set-up does far less damage than a modified version of Xynode's Easy Sorc. If every MagDK player uses a lightning heavy attack build, there will be very little flame damage for Engulfing to buff. I wonder if a MagDK can do nearly as much damage as a MagSorc using that build on the PTS?
OP, thank you for taking the time to post. Amongst all the guilds of which I am a part, there are almost no MagDK players. I hope our small numbers can be heard and ZOS will help.0 -
Olupajmibanan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭WrathOfInnos wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »T3hasiangod wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »Have you calculated any estimated % value that could be hit without a 10% cap?
Without building specifically for max spell damage using just my standard trial setup (Zaan, False God, Zens Redress, Maelstrom Inferno) I would do 12% debuff. Switching Zen's Redress to Burning Spellweave would bring me to 14%.
Seems like the max you could reasonably hit would be Perf Siroria + Spell Strat + 1 Kena + 1 Balorgh with Nirnhoned front bar, infused Berserker back, Major and Minor Courage and Sorcery, and 7 divines Apprentice Stone. Total is 6.5k Spell Damage for 19%. That build would be pretty terrible though, lacking crit chance, crit damage, sustain, damage procs, and Max Magicka. Could maybe hit 20% if you give up Bloodthirsty for 3 Infused Spell Damage jewelry.
I think this could be a cool idea. Even if the Engulfing buff ended up more powerful than in Scalebreaker, there is going to be less flame damage in general, so it evens out. Most builds will by dropping Scalding Rune and Flame Reach, so really only Wall (which is weak now), Light Attacks, and maybe a Flame glyph (If Absorb Mag is not required for sustain) will get buffed. Even class skills like Vamp Bane and Burning Embers are hard to justify slotting in their PTS state.
Basically in Scalebreaker Engulfing was 10% on 40-50% of most builds’ damage, so 4-5% overall. In Dragonhold it could be up to 20% on 25-30% of most builds’ damage or 5-6% overall on a MagDK buff build (taking a personal loss), or 7% on that same 25-30% if used on a tank for about 2% DPS increase (similar to pre-Scalebreaker).
Not sure if Spell Strategist works with new Engulfing Flames. For example, Elemental Succession doesn't work.
Cap removal is bringing Zenimax's idea to give magDK group utility unsubstitutable by tanks to final state.
Spell Strategist and other "increase Spell Damage by x when y is happening" will not scale. From what I've been able to gather, Engulfing Flames takes your character sheet Spell Damage.
I'll add another observation. The debuff scales dynamicaly with your CURRENT spell damage. It is not fixed x% for entire duration of Engulfing Flames debuff. When your spell damage falls (e.g. due to Sorcery buffs wearing off), the debuff will automaticaly scale down as well.
Interesting, so forget Spell Strat. And if it dynamically scales then things like BSW or Scathing Mage would not work very well. Even a Nirnhoned front bar would not be great if it still scales down when you bar swap, and it would not be worth going double nirn and giving up the Infused Berserker.
The best option would probably be New Moon Acolyte then (RIP sustain, many heavy attacks required). Max would be 19% bonus in that case, and that’s with Infused jewelry and 100% uptime on 20 Siroria stacks. A more reasonable build would probably peak at around 15%.
Exactly that is the best part of removing the cap on Engulfing Flames. You must do sacrifices in order to boost your group dps, and it is up to you to find the sweet spot between your individual dps and group dps.
With the cap existing, we have only too choices. Either we take magDK with 10% debuff (you reach 3333 spell damage basicaly on any build), or we take some stronger dps and accept 6-7% debuff from tank. Sad thing is, reasonable leaders will choose the second, but cap removal could shake things up.1 -
WrathOfInnos✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Olupajmibanan wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »T3hasiangod wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »WrathOfInnos wrote: »Olupajmibanan wrote: »Have you calculated any estimated % value that could be hit without a 10% cap?
Without building specifically for max spell damage using just my standard trial setup (Zaan, False God, Zens Redress, Maelstrom Inferno) I would do 12% debuff. Switching Zen's Redress to Burning Spellweave would bring me to 14%.
Seems like the max you could reasonably hit would be Perf Siroria + Spell Strat + 1 Kena + 1 Balorgh with Nirnhoned front bar, infused Berserker back, Major and Minor Courage and Sorcery, and 7 divines Apprentice Stone. Total is 6.5k Spell Damage for 19%. That build would be pretty terrible though, lacking crit chance, crit damage, sustain, damage procs, and Max Magicka. Could maybe hit 20% if you give up Bloodthirsty for 3 Infused Spell Damage jewelry.
I think this could be a cool idea. Even if the Engulfing buff ended up more powerful than in Scalebreaker, there is going to be less flame damage in general, so it evens out. Most builds will by dropping Scalding Rune and Flame Reach, so really only Wall (which is weak now), Light Attacks, and maybe a Flame glyph (If Absorb Mag is not required for sustain) will get buffed. Even class skills like Vamp Bane and Burning Embers are hard to justify slotting in their PTS state.
Basically in Scalebreaker Engulfing was 10% on 40-50% of most builds’ damage, so 4-5% overall. In Dragonhold it could be up to 20% on 25-30% of most builds’ damage or 5-6% overall on a MagDK buff build (taking a personal loss), or 7% on that same 25-30% if used on a tank for about 2% DPS increase (similar to pre-Scalebreaker).
Not sure if Spell Strategist works with new Engulfing Flames. For example, Elemental Succession doesn't work.
Cap removal is bringing Zenimax's idea to give magDK group utility unsubstitutable by tanks to final state.
Spell Strategist and other "increase Spell Damage by x when y is happening" will not scale. From what I've been able to gather, Engulfing Flames takes your character sheet Spell Damage.
I'll add another observation. The debuff scales dynamicaly with your CURRENT spell damage. It is not fixed x% for entire duration of Engulfing Flames debuff. When your spell damage falls (e.g. due to Sorcery buffs wearing off), the debuff will automaticaly scale down as well.
Interesting, so forget Spell Strat. And if it dynamically scales then things like BSW or Scathing Mage would not work very well. Even a Nirnhoned front bar would not be great if it still scales down when you bar swap, and it would not be worth going double nirn and giving up the Infused Berserker.
The best option would probably be New Moon Acolyte then (RIP sustain, many heavy attacks required). Max would be 19% bonus in that case, and that’s with Infused jewelry and 100% uptime on 20 Siroria stacks. A more reasonable build would probably peak at around 15%.
Exactly that is the best part of removing the cap on Engulfing Flames. You must do sacrifices in order to boost your group dps, and it is up to you to find the sweet spot between your individual dps and group dps.
With the cap existing, we have only too choices. Either we take magDK with 10% debuff (you reach 3333 spell damage basicaly on any build), or we take some stronger dps and accept 6-7% debuff from tank. Sad thing is, reasonable leaders will choose the second, but cap removal could shake things up.
Yeah, reminds me of the Z’en’s meta in that case. Currently a MagDK can use the set and get 100% uptime on the 5% group damage increase, but most groups have a healer wearing it and getting around 3% average so that they can bring another stamcro instead of a Magicka DPS. In theory a Magcro could use it, but they have no class ST DoTs and their DPS is so low it’s not worth trying (especially in a stam optimized group without Minor Prophecy, Engulfing Flames, or Worm).
IMO the original Z’en’s that gave 2% per DoT up to 10% would have justified using it on a DPS for higher uptimes, but the nerfed version makes sense on a healer, which will only be reinforced next patch when all ST DoTs will be weak on a DPS build.0