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Where's the actual PvP in ESO's "PvP"?
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NeillMcAttack✭✭✭✭✭
✭Maybe you should describe a 'real' PvP game?PC EU - NoCP PvP, is real PvPTiidehunter Nord StamDK EP PvP MainLegion Commander Tresdin Stamplar DC PvE MainSephirith Altmer MagPlar EP Gondar the Bounty Hunter Khajiit StamBlade DCThe Dirge Redguard StamNecro EP Disruptor Stormcrafter Nord StamSorc ADLone Druid Bosmer Stam Warden EP Necro-Phos Argonian MagBlade AD@ McAttack in gamePlayed since beta, and then on console at release, until the game became unplayable on console.3 -
daedalusAI✭✭✭✭✭NeillMcAttack wrote: »Maybe you should describe a 'real' PvP game?
I did in the previous post, so maybe someone should start describing where the PvP in ESO is, preferably excluding the Alliance War and focusing on 1vs1 or battlegrounds.
Where does an actual PvPer differ from someone like me e.g. what are the decision he actually can make in ESO's PvP?Edited by daedalusAI on September 24, 2019 6:44PM1 -
Kel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭daedalusAI wrote: »daedalusAI wrote: »daedalusAI wrote: »I am not really what you are driving at OP, with these tragically oversimplified statements about ESO.
Not really sure what you're driving at with such a pointless comment when I clearly stated I want to understand where the actual PvP in ESO is.
From my limited experience its depth is shallow, mostly about spamming abilities in the hope someone dies, limited counter-plays, resources are mostly a non-factor except running out of stamina due to constant roll-dodging etc.
Where is the actual depth?
Tell me, I really want to know.
OP since you got so much salt in our system you should just find another “actual PVP” game. I’m guessing instead of trying to learn how to be good at PVP you’re simply losing to some low tier players spamming your aforementioned techniques to “defeat” you in a “not so PVP” fashion. “...defensive mechanism is dodge roll and stun” lmao, what are heals, shields, and kiting. What do you want for a better “defensive mechanism”? Do you want to play a card that makes you immune to damage for 2 seconds after the opponent activated your trap card? “Just spam dizzy onslaught” maybe that’s why dizzy is getting a nerf no? “If you’re out of stamina” no ***? Can you roll in dark souls when you have no stamina? Manage your damn resources.
TL;DR OP is frustrated at being bad at pvp and simplifies PvP to “his own realm” in order to complain about it instead of learning to pvp.
Do you always type like that when you're getting emotional?
So enlighten me how a "high tier" player plays ESO PvP, I'd really like to know.
I did mention shields, but I guess you're too emotional to even read properly. Additionally the kiting reminds me of WoW "PvP" in terms of pillar hugging.
How about actual counter-plays other than moving out of telegraphed ground spells, roll-dodging, spamming shields/absorbs or just swapping to 1h&shield and blocking?
The burden of proof is still on you to show me how my "ESO PvP simplification" is wrong by pointing towards the actual depth of PvP.
What is your idea of "real" PvP?
Maybe your simplified version of what PvP in this game is would be cleared up by your experience in other games or what you think PvP in this game "should" be.
And save the "it's on you" if that's going to be your response. You put this topic up for discussion. If you're not willing to clear up what you're getting at we can all assume this post was nothing more than argument bait.
Logic doesn't seem to be your forte.
I bet you're just a absolute joy to be around in real life, keyboard warrior...😖2 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭daedalusAI wrote: »I couldn't care less about PvP in a PvE game, but I want to understand where the actual PvP in ESO is.
As far as I can tell:- A majority of the defensive plays is either constant spamming of shield/absorb abilities, constant roll-dodging or just swapping to a 1h&shield back-bar
- The typical scenario is going from certain death within seconds up to both participants hitting each other for ages without no one dying at all
- Abilities with a 100% unavoidable CC seem to be rather weird in terms of PvP, as you're fixated in place just waiting to die
- I feel like 90%+ are either spamming bow attacks or 2H charging in, Dizzying Swing + Execute spam
- If you're of of stamina you can't roll-dodge as one of the primary defense mechanism which means you're dead meat
- The only avenues of initiation seems to be stun -> burst burst burst, DoT spamming, bow spamming or invisibility -> stun -> burst burst burst
Did I miss the actual PvP parts, because currently I can hardly see something which warrants the title PvP.
You’ve described ESO pvp pretty well. Unfortunately as soon as you have any builds that break this mould people on the forums cry until it turns back to what you describe.
It’s mostly macro vs build with reaction times.
Your point about it barely being pvp will be lost. Most players are too young to have seen what old school pvp MMOs was like.
In ESO burst and healing has been cranked up way higher than old school games. It makes combat fast paced and over quickly.Edited by Iskiab on September 24, 2019 6:47PMLooking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten1 -
Major_Lag✭✭✭✭✭
✭
You do realize that those players who "live for ages" are doing that exactly because they happen to be very good at managing their resources?daedalusAI wrote: »Resource management is a major thing in Dota2 <-> I can't see the need for a proper resource management in ESO: either you're dead within seconds, or everyone involved lives for ages
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TBois✭✭✭✭✭
✭Fun fact: PvP was the marketed and only endgame when eso launched. There were no trials at launch.daedalusAI wrote: »I couldn't care less about PvP in a PvE game, but I want to understand where the actual PvP in ESO is.
As far as I can tell:- A majority of the defensive plays is either constant spamming of shield/absorb abilities, constant roll-dodging or just swapping to a 1h&shield back-bar
- The typical scenario is going from certain death within seconds up to both participants hitting each other for ages without no one dying at all
- Abilities with a 100% unavoidable CC seem to be rather weird in terms of PvP, as you're fixated in place just waiting to die
- I feel like 90%+ are either spamming bow attacks or 2H charging in, Dizzying Swing + Execute spam
- If you're of of stamina you can't roll-dodge as one of the primary defense mechanism which means you're dead meat
- The only avenues of initiation seems to be stun -> burst burst burst, DoT spamming, bow spamming or invisibility -> stun -> burst burst burst
Did I miss the actual PvP parts, because currently I can hardly see something which warrants the title PvP.
You said resource management isnt necessary in eso yet you are having trouble managing your stamina, which is one of your main gripes, correct? So resource management is obviously a bit more difficult than you are making out.PC/NA
T-Bois (Stam Sorc since 1.4) - AD
An Unsettling Snowball (Templar) - AD
Bosquecito (Stam Sorc) - DC
Peti-T-Bois (Stamden) - AD6 -
daedalusAI✭✭✭✭✭daedalusAI wrote: »daedalusAI wrote: »daedalusAI wrote: »I am not really what you are driving at OP, with these tragically oversimplified statements about ESO.
Not really sure what you're driving at with such a pointless comment when I clearly stated I want to understand where the actual PvP in ESO is.
From my limited experience its depth is shallow, mostly about spamming abilities in the hope someone dies, limited counter-plays, resources are mostly a non-factor except running out of stamina due to constant roll-dodging etc.
Where is the actual depth?
Tell me, I really want to know.
OP since you got so much salt in our system you should just find another “actual PVP” game. I’m guessing instead of trying to learn how to be good at PVP you’re simply losing to some low tier players spamming your aforementioned techniques to “defeat” you in a “not so PVP” fashion. “...defensive mechanism is dodge roll and stun” lmao, what are heals, shields, and kiting. What do you want for a better “defensive mechanism”? Do you want to play a card that makes you immune to damage for 2 seconds after the opponent activated your trap card? “Just spam dizzy onslaught” maybe that’s why dizzy is getting a nerf no? “If you’re out of stamina” no ***? Can you roll in dark souls when you have no stamina? Manage your damn resources.
TL;DR OP is frustrated at being bad at pvp and simplifies PvP to “his own realm” in order to complain about it instead of learning to pvp.
Do you always type like that when you're getting emotional?
So enlighten me how a "high tier" player plays ESO PvP, I'd really like to know.
I did mention shields, but I guess you're too emotional to even read properly. Additionally the kiting reminds me of WoW "PvP" in terms of pillar hugging.
How about actual counter-plays other than moving out of telegraphed ground spells, roll-dodging, spamming shields/absorbs or just swapping to 1h&shield and blocking?
The burden of proof is still on you to show me how my "ESO PvP simplification" is wrong by pointing towards the actual depth of PvP.
What is your idea of "real" PvP?
Maybe your simplified version of what PvP in this game is would be cleared up by your experience in other games or what you think PvP in this game "should" be.
And save the "it's on you" if that's going to be your response. You put this topic up for discussion. If you're not willing to clear up what you're getting at we can all assume this post was nothing more than argument bait.
Logic doesn't seem to be your forte.
I bet you're just a absolute joy to be around in real life, keyboard warrior...😖
So excusing the other poster for his claim of my ESO PvP oversimplification without any evidence to back it up by requiring me to define what I underanddaedalusAI wrote: »daedalusAI wrote: »daedalusAI wrote: »I am not really what you are driving at OP, with these tragically oversimplified statements about ESO.
Not really sure what you're driving at with such a pointless comment when I clearly stated I want to understand where the actual PvP in ESO is.
From my limited experience its depth is shallow, mostly about spamming abilities in the hope someone dies, limited counter-plays, resources are mostly a non-factor except running out of stamina due to constant roll-dodging etc.
Where is the actual depth?
Tell me, I really want to know.
OP since you got so much salt in our system you should just find another “actual PVP” game. I’m guessing instead of trying to learn how to be good at PVP you’re simply losing to some low tier players spamming your aforementioned techniques to “defeat” you in a “not so PVP” fashion. “...defensive mechanism is dodge roll and stun” lmao, what are heals, shields, and kiting. What do you want for a better “defensive mechanism”? Do you want to play a card that makes you immune to damage for 2 seconds after the opponent activated your trap card? “Just spam dizzy onslaught” maybe that’s why dizzy is getting a nerf no? “If you’re out of stamina” no ***? Can you roll in dark souls when you have no stamina? Manage your damn resources.
TL;DR OP is frustrated at being bad at pvp and simplifies PvP to “his own realm” in order to complain about it instead of learning to pvp.
Do you always type like that when you're getting emotional?
So enlighten me how a "high tier" player plays ESO PvP, I'd really like to know.
I did mention shields, but I guess you're too emotional to even read properly. Additionally the kiting reminds me of WoW "PvP" in terms of pillar hugging.
How about actual counter-plays other than moving out of telegraphed ground spells, roll-dodging, spamming shields/absorbs or just swapping to 1h&shield and blocking?
The burden of proof is still on you to show me how my "ESO PvP simplification" is wrong by pointing towards the actual depth of PvP.
What is your idea of "real" PvP?
Maybe your simplified version of what PvP in this game is would be cleared up by your experience in other games or what you think PvP in this game "should" be.
And save the "it's on you" if that's going to be your response. You put this topic up for discussion. If you're not willing to clear up what you're getting at we can all assume this post was nothing more than argument bait.
Logic doesn't seem to be your forte.
I bet you're just a absolute joy to be around in real life, keyboard warrior...😖
Depends: if you want a logical person asking questions, not backing down from a proper discussion or keeping his cool when faced with a slur like "keyboard warrior" then I'm a blast; if you want to have a superficial person like yourself who excused the previous poster from his burden of proof of providing evidence for his claim of my simplification of ESO's PvP then you clearly have the wrong one.1 -
BigBragg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭PvP in ESO, just like many other games with PvP, boils down to choices.
Positioning. Timing. Builds. Resource management. This are universal in most games whether MOBA, MMOs, or shooters.
These things are important and very effective in ESO's PVP as well. Resource management, if you play to your build correctly because there are many ways to go about it, shouldn't so much be consciously about magicka and stamina sustain. Those should become second nature. It really should be more about what pot to use and when to use it. What ultimate to use and when to use is. How long until I can get the next one up. Am I trying to time it with teammates?
Line of sight, flanking, even angles you are taking objectives are important. Do you just push in, or do you juke the opposition to bait them into a waisted ulti dump? When you finally jump in are you unleashing you offensive fury to wipe the other team, or are you going to save that defensive/support ulti to bolster everyone's chance at survival and success.
Even with things like Dizzing coming at you. How you chose to counter it. Do you simply block? Roll dodge? Stun them first? Perhaps you push into them and past them so the wiff the windup.
There are hundreds of these nuances throughout fighting in this game, that for me provide a very rich and enjoyable experience when the game is functioning properly.
If you want to learn more, check out some of the PvP streamers that talk about the choices they make, or join an organized group that uses comms and will have you build in a way to fits in and supports the other members.
p.s. This isn't just a PvE game with PvP. Never has been, and was never intended to be. Matt Firor came from DAoC with his PvP knowledge for a reason. The game is build around the Three Banners War, and Cyrodiil was the intended end game. Trails weren't added until after launch. Also Cyrodiil has had more work done to it that any other zone in the game. Elder Scrolls online really does cater to and promote both. That is why they have consistently and consciously chosen not to balance skills separately, for better or worse.
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Raideen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭This is a PVP game with PVE in it. You think the bar swapping and limit of skills was intended to enrich PVE? Lmao
Incorrect. This is a PVE game with PVP in it. The reason for bar swapping is due to the nature that the game is designed around interfacing with consoles (controllers) and PC's (keyboards/mice). That is the reason for bar swapping, to increase the number of useable buttons on a controller.1 -
Vandril✭✭✭✭I hardly play ESO anymore nowadays, but I still visit the forums every so often. I like keeping up with MMOs I used to and might again one day play, so that I can decide what to play based on changes made. Anyway...
I have a fair amount of PvP experience across a variety of MMOs, so I'll see if I can answer your question here. I'll address your post point by point, though not necessarily in the order you posted them. I mean, I know you're trolling, but... Well, I enjoy thought puzzles.daedalusAI wrote: »- A majority of the defensive plays is either constant spamming of shield/absorb abilities, constant roll-dodging or just swapping to a 1h&shield back-bar
Yes. There are only a handful of defensive mechanics in ESO, and you've basically listed them all. Except defensive buffs and damage-lowering debuffs.daedalusAI wrote: »- The only avenues of initiation seems to be stun -> burst burst burst, DoT spamming, bow spamming or invisibility -> stun -> burst burst burst
Like your mention of defensive mechanics above, there are only a handful of damaging mechanics and you've basically listed them all: direct damage (from melee or ranged) and DoTs. Opening with a CC in PvP when going into attack range of an enemy is standard MMO fare, especially if done before a burst attempt. After all, you don't want to take damage you can avoid or let the opponent escape your burst. The only thing you're missing here is the usage and upkeep of buffs and debuffs that are often applied just before initiation.
Your above two points may have been made with some level of disdain or disappointment, but you really just described gameplay in MMORPGs in a nutshell. None of this is specific to ESO or, heck, even to PvP, but is the basis of MMO combat in just about any MMO out there in every type of content: use available defensive mechanics for defense as often as possible and initiate in the safest yet most aggressive manner possible to where it will most likely result in the opponent taking more damage than you.
So, no, you're not missing anything there, and if you don't like it then...well, you just don't like it. And that's fine.daedalusAI wrote: »- The typical scenario is going from certain death within seconds up to both participants hitting each other for ages without no one dying at all
This is less a mechanical issue than it is a balance one. Class balance, balance of offensive vs. defensive capabilities in builds, set balance, and player skill all play a huge part in what kind of PvP combat you'll experience. Generally, you'll only see fair contest between yourself and an opponent where both players keep up with one another and one barely ekes out the win if all four of those factors are balanced between both players. If even one of those doesn't line up between all participants, then you'll get exactly as you described: brief, bursty bouts or never-ending defensive battles.
You're not missing anything here. It's just very rare to experience a fight of middling length that doesn't end with complete domination by one side or with a drawn-out stalemate.daedalusAI wrote: »- Abilities with a 100% unavoidable CC seem to be rather weird in terms of PvP, as you're fixated in place just waiting to die
As others have stated, there is counter-play to those. CC Break (or Dodging, for Immobilizations).
I agree that giving some classes undodgeable abilities in a game with an action combat system is odd, though.daedalusAI wrote: »- If you're of of stamina you can't roll-dodge as one of the primary defense mechanism which means you're dead meat
Well, yes. That's kind of the point. And if you're NOT out of stamina, you CAN roll-dodge. Part of the player skill aspect of MMO combat is always resource management, and it's often resource management failure that leads to losing a fight. In ESO, managing your Stamina better than the other guy so you can appropriately use the available defensive mechanics such as dodging and blocking is indeed a key to victory. If you've run out of stamina, and yet your opponent has not, then you were worse at resource management than they were.
It's just like in PvE where, if you run out of Stamina and suddenly find yourself needing to dodge, you aren't able to and you'll just die. It's no different.daedalusAI wrote: »- I feel like 90%+ are either spamming bow attacks or 2H charging in, Dizzying Swing + Execute spam
It's just the path of least resistance. This is more an MMO player issue than a game issue, though you could argue that we wouldn't see this as often if weapon balance was tighter.
So ultimately, you're not missing anything. Most of what you described is how MMOs as a genre tend to work in a general sense. You'll find most of your observations apply just as well to PvE as they do PvP in most MMOs, and not just ESO.
Edit: Just to be clear, I guess I should reiterate. It is, for better or for worse, what PvP (and most of PvE) is comprised of. Though unfortunate, it's okay if you just happen not to like it or don't feel it has enough depth.Edited by Vandril on September 24, 2019 7:21PM0 -
daedalusAI✭✭✭✭✭Fun fact: PvP was the marketed and only endgame when eso launched. There were no trials at launch.daedalusAI wrote: »I couldn't care less about PvP in a PvE game, but I want to understand where the actual PvP in ESO is.
As far as I can tell:- A majority of the defensive plays is either constant spamming of shield/absorb abilities, constant roll-dodging or just swapping to a 1h&shield back-bar
- The typical scenario is going from certain death within seconds up to both participants hitting each other for ages without no one dying at all
- Abilities with a 100% unavoidable CC seem to be rather weird in terms of PvP, as you're fixated in place just waiting to die
- I feel like 90%+ are either spamming bow attacks or 2H charging in, Dizzying Swing + Execute spam
- If you're of of stamina you can't roll-dodge as one of the primary defense mechanism which means you're dead meat
- The only avenues of initiation seems to be stun -> burst burst burst, DoT spamming, bow spamming or invisibility -> stun -> burst burst burst
Did I miss the actual PvP parts, because currently I can hardly see something which warrants the title PvP.
You said resource management isnt necessary in eso yet you are having trouble managing your stamina, which is one of your main gripes, correct? So resource management is obviously a bit more difficult than you are making out.
Maybe I wasn't specific enough about roll-dodging and stamina:- I find it weird that a simple roll-dodge can dodge every ability/spell to begin and a few seconds after the roll-dodge
- As roll-dodging is one of the major defensive tools a stamina build has way more stamina to do it, which I find rather weird when I run around with a fully stacked magicka build
- Running out of stamina due to roll-dodging too much/getting it drained by poison you lose the ability to sprint, block, roll-dodge and break free, which seems like a rather hefty drawback, especially if you're a magicka build
- Roll-dodging/blocking/breaking-free is almost always reactive in nature, not active, e.g. you won't find someone blocking himself in position for a surprise strike or breaking-free to surprise you
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daedalusAI✭✭✭✭✭I hardly play ESO anymore nowadays, but I still visit the forums every so often. I like keeping up with MMOs I used to and might again one day play, so that I can decide what to play based on changes made. Anyway...
I have a fair amount of PvP experience across a variety of MMOs, so I'll see if I can answer your question here. I'll address your post point by point, though not necessarily in the order you posted them. I mean, I know you're trolling, but... Well, I enjoy thought puzzles.
Now you piqued my interest: what's your evidence for this astute slur of calling me trolling?1 -
blee88✭✭This is a PVP game with PVE in it. You think the bar swapping and limit of skills was intended to enrich PVE? Lmao
Incorrect. This is a PVE game with PVP in it. The reason for bar swapping is due to the nature that the game is designed around interfacing with consoles (controllers) and PC's (keyboards/mice). That is the reason for bar swapping, to increase the number of useable buttons on a controller.
The game was originally marketed as PVP. FF14 on consoles has no issue with having 20 or 30 keybinds for a class.0 -
TBois✭✭✭✭✭
✭daedalusAI wrote: »Fun fact: PvP was the marketed and only endgame when eso launched. There were no trials at launch.daedalusAI wrote: »I couldn't care less about PvP in a PvE game, but I want to understand where the actual PvP in ESO is.
As far as I can tell:- A majority of the defensive plays is either constant spamming of shield/absorb abilities, constant roll-dodging or just swapping to a 1h&shield back-bar
- The typical scenario is going from certain death within seconds up to both participants hitting each other for ages without no one dying at all
- Abilities with a 100% unavoidable CC seem to be rather weird in terms of PvP, as you're fixated in place just waiting to die
- I feel like 90%+ are either spamming bow attacks or 2H charging in, Dizzying Swing + Execute spam
- If you're of of stamina you can't roll-dodge as one of the primary defense mechanism which means you're dead meat
- The only avenues of initiation seems to be stun -> burst burst burst, DoT spamming, bow spamming or invisibility -> stun -> burst burst burst
Did I miss the actual PvP parts, because currently I can hardly see something which warrants the title PvP.
You said resource management isnt necessary in eso yet you are having trouble managing your stamina, which is one of your main gripes, correct? So resource management is obviously a bit more difficult than you are making out.
Maybe I wasn't specific enough about roll-dodging and stamina:- I find it weird that a simple roll-dodge can dodge every ability/spell to begin and a few seconds after the roll-dodge
- As roll-dodging is one of the major defensive tools a stamina build has way more stamina to do it, which I find rather weird when I run around with a fully stacked magicka build
- Running out of stamina due to roll-dodging too much/getting it drained by poison you lose the ability to sprint, block, roll-dodge and break free, which seems like a rather hefty drawback, especially if you're a magicka build
- Roll-dodging/blocking/breaking-free is almost always reactive in nature, not active, e.g. you won't find someone blocking himself in position for a surprise strike or breaking-free to surprise you
- Roll dodge does not avoid every skill, just single target direct damage skills.
- Your second and third point have to do with balancing of magicka and stamina builds and playstyles which gets into theorycrafting a build that fits you. There are a lot of choices here that effect pvp deeply. (Edit: Keep in mind magicka has access to it's own reactive defenses with wider access to shields and purge skills.)
- ZOS wants combat to be very reactive.Edited by TBois on September 24, 2019 7:07PMPC/NA
T-Bois (Stam Sorc since 1.4) - AD
An Unsettling Snowball (Templar) - AD
Bosquecito (Stam Sorc) - DC
Peti-T-Bois (Stamden) - AD0 -
hakan✭✭✭✭✭daedalusAI wrote: »
your op doesnt say anything about the stuff you dont like. example:
you said defensive options bla bla bla( im on mobile cant quote effectively enough). i mean there is block, dodge, shields, various amount of cc like stun, fear, teleporting away, invis, shade teleport, wings(rip), backlash, blind...
WHAT ELSE YOU POSSİBLY WANT? no game has more defense options then this.
you seem like you played another game and you cant find that one thing in this game amd you are upset about it.
your OP doesnt have any strong point.3 -
jircris11✭✭✭✭✭
✭This is a PVP game with PVE in it. You think the bar swapping and limit of skills was intended to enrich PVE? Lmao
That's due to consoles not pvp. If it WAS a pvp gane with pve added then why the hell is there more pve then pvp content.IGN: Ki'rah
Khajiit/Vampire
DC/AD faction/NA server.
RPer1 -
Major_Lag✭✭✭✭✭
✭
You don't run around with "fully stacked magicka builds" in PvP and expect to survive much.daedalusAI wrote: »As roll-dodging is one of the major defensive tools a stamina build has way more stamina to do it, which I find rather weird when I run around with a fully stacked magicka build
Any decent magicka build will invest into at least some extra stamina and/or stam regen for survivability.
It's not uncommon to be running ~16k stamina on magicka builds in CP PvP.
Magicka builds have additional defensive options that cost magicka (your primary resource).daedalusAI wrote: »Running out of stamina due to roll-dodging too much/getting it drained by poison you lose the ability to sprint, block, roll-dodge and break free, which seems like a rather hefty drawback, especially if you're a magicka build
Shields are one of such options, burst heals are another.
FWIW, stamina builds have poorer access to strong burst heals, and stamina shields tend to be weaker than their magicka counterparts.
Also, don't forget that stamina builds use stamina as their primary offensive resource (duh!) - if you waste all of it on dodging/blocking, good luck going on any kind of offensive from there.
ESO PvP is primarily reactive in nature, as you have correctly surmised.daedalusAI wrote: »Roll-dodging/blocking/breaking-free is almost always reactive in nature, not active, e.g. you won't find someone blocking himself in position for a surprise strike or breaking-free to surprise you
That's not to say there aren't "active" aspects of it, according to your definition.
Self buffs, healing over time, and damage shields, those are the first 3 that come to mind.
Then there are also special "proactive" defensive abilities, such as Sorc's Def Rune.1 -
Raideen✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭This is a PVP game with PVE in it. You think the bar swapping and limit of skills was intended to enrich PVE? Lmao
Incorrect. This is a PVE game with PVP in it. The reason for bar swapping is due to the nature that the game is designed around interfacing with consoles (controllers) and PC's (keyboards/mice). That is the reason for bar swapping, to increase the number of useable buttons on a controller.
The game was originally marketed as PVP. FF14 on consoles has no issue with having 20 or 30 keybinds for a class.
The game was marketed as PVE with a PVP zone (which is what we got).
Secondly, the design of FF14 has zero to do with the design of this game.2 -
Vandril✭✭✭✭daedalusAI wrote: »I hardly play ESO anymore nowadays, but I still visit the forums every so often. I like keeping up with MMOs I used to and might again one day play, so that I can decide what to play based on changes made. Anyway...
I have a fair amount of PvP experience across a variety of MMOs, so I'll see if I can answer your question here. I'll address your post point by point, though not necessarily in the order you posted them. I mean, I know you're trolling, but... Well, I enjoy thought puzzles.
Now you piqued my interest: what's your evidence for this astute slur of calling me trolling?
A few parts of the OP make me think that.daedalusAI wrote: »I couldn't care less about PvP in a PvE gamedaedalusAI wrote: »Did I miss the actual PvP parts, because currently I can hardly see something which warrants the title PvP.
Let's be honest; neither of these statements add anything to your query or its legitimacy, and both seem to exist solely to elicit a defensive response from people who enjoy ESO's PvP. If you're not trolling, then you might want to consider changing those particular statements to be less abrasive, because they really do make you seem like you're trolling.Edited by Vandril on September 24, 2019 7:17PM4 -
TBois✭✭✭✭✭
✭Also as far as pvpers in eso having "the burden of proof" to prove something to you about eso, there is no agreed upon system in forums for burden of proof like there is in judicial systems. It depends on the agreed upon system's definition of burden of proof as to who has it the accuser or accused.
So now that we all understand there is no burden of proof here, I think many would agree that we think the game would be better off without you. So the incentive we have is to chase you away not answer your questions.PC/NA
T-Bois (Stam Sorc since 1.4) - AD
An Unsettling Snowball (Templar) - AD
Bosquecito (Stam Sorc) - DC
Peti-T-Bois (Stamden) - AD1 -
daedalusAI✭✭✭✭✭daedalusAI wrote: »
your op doesnt say anything about the stuff you dont like. example:
you said defensive options bla bla bla( im on mobile cant quote effectively enough). i mean there is block, dodge, shields, various amount of cc like stun, fear, teleporting away, invis, shade teleport, wings(rip), backlash, blind...
WHAT ELSE YOU POSSİBLY WANT? no game has more defense options then this.
you seem like you played another game and you cant find that one thing in this game amd you are upset about it.
your OP doesnt have any strong point.
You evidently still didn't read my OP: I listed the things I see from my point of view to be everything there is what ESO's PvP can offer, and wanted to know if that is really everything there is.
Yet another person who magically can infer my presumable emotional state with 0 evidence to back it up.
I asked a question, so I have no clue how asking a questions after having listed my impression equals "being upset".
If my OP doesn't have any strong points how come you neither listed where the depth of ESO's PvP actually is nor did you falsify my impressions/observations?1 -
daedalusAI✭✭✭✭✭daedalusAI wrote: »I hardly play ESO anymore nowadays, but I still visit the forums every so often. I like keeping up with MMOs I used to and might again one day play, so that I can decide what to play based on changes made. Anyway...
I have a fair amount of PvP experience across a variety of MMOs, so I'll see if I can answer your question here. I'll address your post point by point, though not necessarily in the order you posted them. I mean, I know you're trolling, but... Well, I enjoy thought puzzles.
Now you piqued my interest: what's your evidence for this astute slur of calling me trolling?
A few parts of the OP make me think that.daedalusAI wrote: »I couldn't care less about PvP in a PvE gamedaedalusAI wrote: »Did I miss the actual PvP parts, because currently I can hardly see something which warrants the title PvP.
Let's be honest; neither of these statements add anything to your query or its legitimacy, and both seem to exist solely to elicit a defensive response from people who enjoy ESO's PvP. If you're not trolling, then you might want to consider changing those particular statements to be less abrasive, because they really do make you seem like you're trolling.
According do you not caring about a certain topic can't legitimately go hand-in-hand with having questions about said topic, e.g. not caring about botany but still having questions about a certain flower or tool?
Interesting, uh, world you live in.
Intriguing how you went from "I know you're trolling" to "you seem like you're trolling".
I guess you had to redact your blind shot into the dark?1 -
JumpmanLane✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭PvP is faster and more dynamic in this game than in other MMOs. Trying to reduce it to such simplistic levels will lead to your inability to win a fight.
^This...maybe. To me the op described not being able to counter much, dying a lot...you know, describing an “inability to win a fight.”2 -
daedalusAI✭✭✭✭✭Also as far as pvpers in eso having "the burden of proof" to prove something to you about eso, there is no agreed upon system in forums for burden of proof like there is in judicial systems. It depends on the agreed upon system's definition of burden of proof as to who has it the accuser or accused.
So now that we all understand there is no burden of proof here, I think many would agree that we think the game would be better off without you. So the incentive we have is to chase you away not answer your questions.
Pulling it out of context doesn't do your integrity any good: a previous poster claimed I simplified ESO's PvP in my OP without offering any evidence for that claim.
As long as he doesn't offer evidence for such a claim the burden of proof fall to him.1 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭daedalusAI wrote: »I couldn't care less about PvP in a PvE game, but I want to understand where the actual PvP in ESO is.
As far as I can tell:- A majority of the defensive plays is either constant spamming of shield/absorb abilities, constant roll-dodging or just swapping to a 1h&shield back-bar
- The typical scenario is going from certain death within seconds up to both participants hitting each other for ages without no one dying at all
- Abilities with a 100% unavoidable CC seem to be rather weird in terms of PvP, as you're fixated in place just waiting to die
- I feel like 90%+ are either spamming bow attacks or 2H charging in, Dizzying Swing + Execute spam
- If you're of of stamina you can't roll-dodge as one of the primary defense mechanism which means you're dead meat
- The only avenues of initiation seems to be stun -> burst burst burst, DoT spamming, bow spamming or invisibility -> stun -> burst burst burst
Did I miss the actual PvP parts, because currently I can hardly see something which warrants the title PvP.
I'm having trouble understanding your point.
Are you suggesting it's either too defensive or too offensive with no middle ground?
The problem with this game's PvP is it was foolishly balanced around 1v1 fights - which translated into a slaughterhouse since 1v1 fights actually rarely happen in PvP on this game. In short: it was a mess - with overly abrupt and boring fights which basically consisted of a race to see which side could get their stun/burst combos of doom off first on the other. It was incredibly lame with no real counter play or sense of back and forth. "Dynamic" is the last word I would use to describe it...
Luckily this new team seems to understand that and has been taking measures to reduce damage in PvP - which is always going to be cumulative due to multiple players being able to target a single player. That's why you can't really balance any worthwhile PvP system around a 1v1 scenario. Stalemates between skilled opponents are going to happen in any competent PvP system and are in fact very common in other games. So I'll never understand why so many PvPers on this game in particular seem to have some strange problem with others of comparable skill being able to draw them in combat as if that is a bad thing. It's not. In fact: it's a necessity if you want to have a PvP system that isn't a giant heap of steaming dung.
So I agree with you in the sense this game's offense has been out of control for some time. Though at least the problem is getting better now and you're not always just waiting to die which to be honest was a fairly accurate description of this game's PvP. But now it's finally starting to move in the right direction. There has always been this misnomer on here that slaughtering an opponent who can't move with some ridiculously overpowered combination of abilities = skill. It doesn't. It equals stupidity and more importantly - a total lack of fun.
As far as your critique on defensive tactics go... at least in none CP PvP no one is going to avoid death by just spamming shields. That player is going to die - and die terribly - if he or she attempts such an ineffective strategy as that. And I've yet to see a player who could survive against multiple skilled opponents without having to retreat.
Edited by Jeremy on September 24, 2019 7:35PM0
This discussion has been closed.