Where's the actual PvP in ESO's "PvP"?
daedalusAI
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I couldn't care less about PvP in a PvE game, but I want to understand where the actual PvP in ESO is.
As far as I can tell:
Did I miss the actual PvP parts, because currently I can hardly see something which warrants the title PvP.
Edited by daedalusAI on September 24, 2019 5:16PM As far as I can tell:
- A majority of the defensive plays is either constant spamming of shield/absorb abilities, constant roll-dodging or just swapping to a 1h&shield back-bar
- The typical scenario is going from certain death within seconds up to both participants hitting each other for ages without no one dying at all
- Abilities with a 100% unavoidable CC seem to be rather weird in terms of PvP, as you're fixated in place just waiting to die
- I feel like 90%+ are either spamming bow attacks or 2H charging in, Dizzying Swing + Execute spam
- If you're of of stamina you can't roll-dodge as one of the primary defense mechanism which means you're dead meat
- The only avenues of initiation seems to be stun -> burst burst burst, DoT spamming, bow spamming or invisibility -> stun -> burst burst burst
Did I miss the actual PvP parts, because currently I can hardly see something which warrants the title PvP.
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VaranisArano✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Outside of Dueling, ESO's PVP is Army v Army v Army, or in Battlegrounds, group v group v group.
But most people understand PVP to mean "player vs player". So by that definition, sure, those are all PVP-enabled zones.
Or were you trying to make a snide comment about the quality of PVP in ESO?11 -
blee88✭✭This is a PVP game with PVE in it. You think the bar swapping and limit of skills was intended to enrich PVE? Lmao4
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Thogard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭PvP is faster and more dynamic in this game than in other MMOs. Trying to reduce it to such simplistic levels will lead to your inability to win a fight.PC NA - @dazkt - Dazk Ardoonkt / Sir Thogalot / Dask Dragoh’t / Dazk Dragoh’t / El Thogardo
Stream: twitch.tv/THOGARDvsThePeasants
YouTube: http://youtube.com/c/thogardpvp9 -
Crixus8000✭✭✭✭✭
✭Everythig you mention is pvp. Pvp means player vs player, so even if someone runs up and just spams dizzy against another player he is still pvping. So I'm not really sure what your asking.5 -
BigBragg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭I am not really what you are driving at OP, with these tragically oversimplified statements about ESO.0 -
Major_Lag✭✭✭✭✭
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If your idea of a "defensive play" is to "constantly spam" very expensive shields (which have been repeatedly nerfed to Oblivion, no less!), then you won't be surviving for very long in PvPdaedalusAI wrote: »A majority of the defensive plays is either constant spamming of shield/absorb abilities, constant roll-dodging or just swapping to a 1h&shield back-bar
This part is sadly true. The range of TTKs in ESO is stupidly wide, as you have yourself observed.daedalusAI wrote: »The typical scenario is going from certain death within seconds up to both participants hitting each other for ages without no one dying at all
There's plenty of counterplay for that "100% unavoidable CC".daedalusAI wrote: »Abilities with a 100% unavoidable CC seem to be rather weird in terms of PvP, as you're fixated in place just waiting to die
It won't affect you at all if you're already CC immune, for a start.
Also, CC break is a thing. Use it.
Welcome to the ESO PvP stamina meta, please leave your staves by the doordaedalusAI wrote: »I feel like 90%+ are either spamming bow attacks or 2H charging in, Dizzying Swing + Execute spam
If you're regularly running out of stamina in PvP, that's a L2P issue (and potentially also a build issue). Resource management is one of the basic pillars of successful PvPing.daedalusAI wrote: »If you're of of stamina you can't roll-dodge as one of the primary defense mechanism which means you're dead meat
You are not going to be killing any competent PvPers without some form of limiting their mobility and/or preventing them from healing.daedalusAI wrote: »The only avenues of initiation seems to be stun -> burst burst burst, DoT spamming, bow spamming or invisibility -> stun -> burst burst burst
Snares, stuns and immobilizations are your ticket here.3 -
daedalusAI✭✭✭✭✭I am not really what you are driving at OP, with these tragically oversimplified statements about ESO.
Not really sure what you're driving at with such a pointless comment when I clearly stated I want to understand where the actual PvP in ESO is.
From my limited experience its depth is shallow, mostly about spamming abilities in the hope someone dies, limited counter-plays, resources are mostly a non-factor except running out of stamina due to constant roll-dodging etc.
Where is the actual depth?
Tell me, I really want to know.2 -
jadarock✭✭✭✭✭Bro you missed one hell of a fight at roe last night xbox na
AD defending two breeches vs both of the other factions and ending up an hour later with a 74k tic lol It was magical and reminded me why I still play this game!
You have to learn to enjoy the ebbs and flows it's a challenge to stay focused versus opponents that dont run a set pattern but that's what makes it super gratifying when your team is the last one standing!!
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Aerenel✭✭✭@daedalusAI : The depth is approaching pvp yourself from a more involved standpoint. You said yourself you see spamming abilities for offense, spamming shields/heals for defense, and spamming break free/ waiting helpless when CC locked.
You get out of pvp what you put into it, and what you described putting into it is very shallow gameplay.Edited by Aerenel on September 24, 2019 5:38PM3 -
daedalusAI✭✭✭✭✭
Did I miss any defensive play other than roll-dodging, shield spamming, or blocking using 1h&shield?If your idea of a "defensive play" is to "constantly spam" very expensive shields (which have been repeatedly nerfed to Oblivion, no less!), then you won't be surviving for very long in PvP
As far as I can tell there's hardly counter-play like e.g. dodging a skillshot.
I try to, but in quite a lot of cases I can't break free, can't roll-dodge out of it, which means I just stand there to watch me die.There's plenty of counterplay for that "100% unavoidable CC".
It won't affect you at all if you're already CC immune, for a start.
Also, CC break is a thing. Use it.
No doubt it's mainly a L2P issue, but that doesn't take away the fact that roll-dodging is one, if not the major defensive play you can do.If you're regularly running out of stamina in PvP, that's a L2P issue (and potentially also a build issue). Resource management is one of the basic pillars of successful PvPing.
Edited by daedalusAI on September 24, 2019 5:40PM1 -
SirAndy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭daedalusAI wrote: »Did I miss the actual PvP parts, because currently I can hardly see something which warrants the title PvP.
You missed the part where Cyrodiil was heavily marketed as AvAvA (where A stands for Alliance).
And back in the day before the pretty lights killed performance we had some of the most epic battles with hundreds of players fighting for hours at a time.
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daedalusAI✭✭✭✭✭@daedalusAI : The depth is approaching pvp yourself from a more involved standpoint. You said yourself you see spamming abilities for offense, spamming shields/heals for defense, and spamming break free/ waiting helpless when CC locked.
You get out of pvp what you put into it, and what you described putting into it is very shallow gameplay.
A rather abstract description.
Tell me about a non-shallow PvP gameplay, preferably in a 1vs1 or battleground settings to exclude everything Alliance war/siege weapon related.1 -
chrightt✭✭✭✭daedalusAI wrote: »I am not really what you are driving at OP, with these tragically oversimplified statements about ESO.
Not really sure what you're driving at with such a pointless comment when I clearly stated I want to understand where the actual PvP in ESO is.
From my limited experience its depth is shallow, mostly about spamming abilities in the hope someone dies, limited counter-plays, resources are mostly a non-factor except running out of stamina due to constant roll-dodging etc.
Where is the actual depth?
Tell me, I really want to know.
OP since you got so much salt in our system you should just find another “actual PVP” game. I’m guessing instead of trying to learn how to be good at PVP you’re simply losing to some low tier players spamming your aforementioned techniques to “defeat” you in a “not so PVP” fashion. “...defensive mechanism is dodge roll and stun” lmao, what are heals, shields, and kiting. What do you want for a better “defensive mechanism”? Do you want to play a card that makes you immune to damage for 2 seconds after the opponent activated your trap card? “Just spam dizzy onslaught” maybe that’s why dizzy is getting a nerf no? “If you’re out of stamina” no ***? Can you roll in dark souls when you have no stamina? Manage your damn resources.
TL;DR OP is frustrated at being bad at pvp and simplifies PvP to “his own realm” in order to complain about it instead of learning to pvp.4 -
AhPook_Is_Here✭✭✭✭✭
✭daedalusAI wrote: »I couldn't care less about PvP in a PvE game, but I want to understand where the actual PvP in ESO is.
As far as I can tell:- A majority of the defensive plays is either constant spamming of shield/absorb abilities, constant roll-dodging or just swapping to a 1h&shield back-bar
- The typical scenario is going from certain death within seconds up to both participants hitting each other for ages without no one dying at all
- Abilities with a 100% unavoidable CC seem to be rather weird in terms of PvP, as you're fixated in place just waiting to die
- I feel like 90%+ are either spamming bow attacks or 2H charging in, Dizzying Swing + Execute spam
- If you're of of stamina you can't roll-dodge as one of the primary defense mechanism which means you're dead meat
- The only avenues of initiation seems to be stun -> burst burst burst, DoT spamming, bow spamming or invisibility -> stun -> burst burst burst
Did I miss the actual PvP parts, because currently I can hardly see something which warrants the title PvP.
Find a tree or a boulder, then the real PVP begins.“Whatever.”
-Unknown American5 -
NordSwordnBoard✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭daedalusAI wrote: »I am not really what you are driving at OP, with these tragically oversimplified statements about ESO.
Not really sure what you're driving at with such a pointless comment when I clearly stated I want to understand where the actual PvP in ESO is.
From my limited experience its depth is shallow, mostly about spamming abilities in the hope someone dies, limited counter-plays, resources are mostly a non-factor except running out of stamina due to constant roll-dodging etc.
Where is the actual depth?
Tell me, I really want to know.
PvP builds are much more varied and the META is not as essential. Sure, impen is very important just like divines or infused in PvE. The major difference and depth comes from opponents who can think vs completely predictable mechanics.
Sure there's a guides out there on how to kill a NB or a Sorc, but there's no guarantee the player you face is going to use the current META, as well as the fact they may be very effective with something you're not prepared for.
TLDR: Dynamic (PvP) vs Repetition (PvE)
Fear is the Mindkiller3 -
Kadoin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭daedalusAI wrote: »I am not really what you are driving at OP, with these tragically oversimplified statements about ESO.
Not really sure what you're driving at with such a pointless comment when I clearly stated I want to understand where the actual PvP in ESO is.
From my limited experience its depth is shallow, mostly about spamming abilities in the hope someone dies, limited counter-plays, resources are mostly a non-factor except running out of stamina due to constant roll-dodging etc.
Where is the actual depth?
Tell me, I really want to know.
It only comes when you are evenly matched. Then it depends on skills and one mistake can cause you to die instantly or your opponent. It's when there ain't no winning rotation that PvP really shines.
That's actually the only time I enjoy PvP. Well that and destroying someone with a "superior" build...
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ZarkingFrued✭✭✭✭✭
✭daedalusAI wrote: »I couldn't care less about PvP in a PvE game, but I want to understand where the actual PvP in ESO is.
As far as I can tell:- A majority of the defensive plays is either constant spamming of shield/absorb abilities, constant roll-dodging or just swapping to a 1h&shield back-bar
- The typical scenario is going from certain death within seconds up to both participants hitting each other for ages without no one dying at all
- Abilities with a 100% unavoidable CC seem to be rather weird in terms of PvP, as you're fixated in place just waiting to die
- I feel like 90%+ are either spamming bow attacks or 2H charging in, Dizzying Swing + Execute spam
- If you're of of stamina you can't roll-dodge as one of the primary defense mechanism which means you're dead meat
- The only avenues of initiation seems to be stun -> burst burst burst, DoT spamming, bow spamming or invisibility -> stun -> burst burst burst
Did I miss the actual PvP parts, because currently I can hardly see something which warrants the title PvP.
Describes PVP then claims it's not PVP. Angry that he lost. Next.6 -
daedalusAI✭✭✭✭✭daedalusAI wrote: »I am not really what you are driving at OP, with these tragically oversimplified statements about ESO.
Not really sure what you're driving at with such a pointless comment when I clearly stated I want to understand where the actual PvP in ESO is.
From my limited experience its depth is shallow, mostly about spamming abilities in the hope someone dies, limited counter-plays, resources are mostly a non-factor except running out of stamina due to constant roll-dodging etc.
Where is the actual depth?
Tell me, I really want to know.
OP since you got so much salt in our system you should just find another “actual PVP” game. I’m guessing instead of trying to learn how to be good at PVP you’re simply losing to some low tier players spamming your aforementioned techniques to “defeat” you in a “not so PVP” fashion. “...defensive mechanism is dodge roll and stun” lmao, what are heals, shields, and kiting. What do you want for a better “defensive mechanism”? Do you want to play a card that makes you immune to damage for 2 seconds after the opponent activated your trap card? “Just spam dizzy onslaught” maybe that’s why dizzy is getting a nerf no? “If you’re out of stamina” no ***? Can you roll in dark souls when you have no stamina? Manage your damn resources.
TL;DR OP is frustrated at being bad at pvp and simplifies PvP to “his own realm” in order to complain about it instead of learning to pvp.
Do you always type like that when you're getting emotional?
So enlighten me how a "high tier" player plays ESO PvP, I'd really like to know.
I did mention shields, but I guess you're too emotional to even read properly. Additionally the kiting reminds me of WoW "PvP" in terms of pillar hugging.
How about actual counter-plays other than moving out of telegraphed ground spells, roll-dodging, spamming shields/absorbs or just swapping to 1h&shield and blocking?
The burden of proof is still on you to show me how my "ESO PvP simplification" is wrong by pointing towards the actual depth of PvP.
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daedalusAI✭✭✭✭✭ZarkingFrued wrote: »daedalusAI wrote: »I couldn't care less about PvP in a PvE game, but I want to understand where the actual PvP in ESO is.
As far as I can tell:- A majority of the defensive plays is either constant spamming of shield/absorb abilities, constant roll-dodging or just swapping to a 1h&shield back-bar
- The typical scenario is going from certain death within seconds up to both participants hitting each other for ages without no one dying at all
- Abilities with a 100% unavoidable CC seem to be rather weird in terms of PvP, as you're fixated in place just waiting to die
- I feel like 90%+ are either spamming bow attacks or 2H charging in, Dizzying Swing + Execute spam
- If you're of of stamina you can't roll-dodge as one of the primary defense mechanism which means you're dead meat
- The only avenues of initiation seems to be stun -> burst burst burst, DoT spamming, bow spamming or invisibility -> stun -> burst burst burst
Did I miss the actual PvP parts, because currently I can hardly see something which warrants the title PvP.
Describes PVP then claims it's not PVP. Angry that he lost. Next.
Point me towards the "angry that he lost" part, or is that comment nothing but hot air?
I want to understand if there's actually more to PvP than I listed there, but your biting-reflex seems to have overtaken your logical thinking.3 -
Malyck✭✭✭Every time someone dies in PvP, a new post is created in the forums. THEN you get some real PvP!!
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Kuramas9tails✭✭✭✭✭
✭The real PVP is in the forums.Your friendly neighborhood crazy cat lady of ESO
New PSN name: SundariTheLast. Proud seller in RedEye Empire, PURPLE GANG and Backalley Trading.
AD High Elf Mageblade DPS (General)(Former Empress) -- Stormproof/VMOL, VHOF, VDSA completion
AD Khajiit Mageblade DPS -- Flawless Conquerer
FOR THE QUEEN!
PS4/NA1 -
Kel✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭daedalusAI wrote: »daedalusAI wrote: »I am not really what you are driving at OP, with these tragically oversimplified statements about ESO.
Not really sure what you're driving at with such a pointless comment when I clearly stated I want to understand where the actual PvP in ESO is.
From my limited experience its depth is shallow, mostly about spamming abilities in the hope someone dies, limited counter-plays, resources are mostly a non-factor except running out of stamina due to constant roll-dodging etc.
Where is the actual depth?
Tell me, I really want to know.
OP since you got so much salt in our system you should just find another “actual PVP” game. I’m guessing instead of trying to learn how to be good at PVP you’re simply losing to some low tier players spamming your aforementioned techniques to “defeat” you in a “not so PVP” fashion. “...defensive mechanism is dodge roll and stun” lmao, what are heals, shields, and kiting. What do you want for a better “defensive mechanism”? Do you want to play a card that makes you immune to damage for 2 seconds after the opponent activated your trap card? “Just spam dizzy onslaught” maybe that’s why dizzy is getting a nerf no? “If you’re out of stamina” no ***? Can you roll in dark souls when you have no stamina? Manage your damn resources.
TL;DR OP is frustrated at being bad at pvp and simplifies PvP to “his own realm” in order to complain about it instead of learning to pvp.
Do you always type like that when you're getting emotional?
So enlighten me how a "high tier" player plays ESO PvP, I'd really like to know.
I did mention shields, but I guess you're too emotional to even read properly. Additionally the kiting reminds me of WoW "PvP" in terms of pillar hugging.
How about actual counter-plays other than moving out of telegraphed ground spells, roll-dodging, spamming shields/absorbs or just swapping to 1h&shield and blocking?
The burden of proof is still on you to show me how my "ESO PvP simplification" is wrong by pointing towards the actual depth of PvP.
What is your idea of "real" PvP?
Maybe your simplified version of what PvP in this game is would be cleared up by your experience in other games or what you think PvP in this game "should" be.
And save the "it's on you" if that's going to be your response. You put this topic up for discussion. If you're not willing to clear up what you're getting at we can all assume this post was nothing more than argument bait.3 -
Major_Lag✭✭✭✭✭
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Line of sight is still very much a thing.daedalusAI wrote: »
Did I miss any defensive play other than roll-dodging, shield spamming, or blocking using 1h&shield?If your idea of a "defensive play" is to "constantly spam" very expensive shields (which have been repeatedly nerfed to Oblivion, no less!), then you won't be surviving for very long in PvP
As far as I can tell there's hardly counter-play like e.g. dodging a skillshot.
Just look at all the tower runners, tree huggers and rock humpers in Cyrodiil.
Sorcs get some "free" portable sources of LoS, because their pets interfere with targeting - effectively they serve as meatshields.
If that's not your thing, there are various "escape abilities" / "gap creators" (such as Streak, Cloak, Shade, Warden vine, for example) which have additional defensive properties, and can also be used offensively in many situations.
That's usually caused by certain bugged abilities, and lag makes CC breaking even more unresponsive.daedalusAI wrote: »
I try to, but in quite a lot of cases I can't break free, can't roll-dodge out of it, which means I just stand there to watch me die.There's plenty of counterplay for that "100% unavoidable CC".
It won't affect you at all if you're already CC immune, for a start.
Also, CC break is a thing. Use it.
Anything that causes knockback is a prime culprit here.
Roots require roll dodging instead of break free, that's an important distinction as well.
Rolling is a powerful defensive tool, yes - but it also has to be used wisely, because of the stacking cost increase.daedalusAI wrote: »
No doubt it's mainly a L2P issue, but that doesn't take away the fact that roll-dodging is one, if not the major defensive play you can do.If you're regularly running out of stamina in PvP, that's a L2P issue (and potentially also a build issue). Resource management is one of the basic pillars of successful PvPing.
Unless you build specifically for it, spamming roll dodge is even worse of a "defensive play" than spamming shields. Bye bye all the stamina
(edit: major formatting fail)Edited by Major_Lag on September 24, 2019 6:31PM1 -
daedalusAI✭✭✭✭✭daedalusAI wrote: »daedalusAI wrote: »I am not really what you are driving at OP, with these tragically oversimplified statements about ESO.
Not really sure what you're driving at with such a pointless comment when I clearly stated I want to understand where the actual PvP in ESO is.
From my limited experience its depth is shallow, mostly about spamming abilities in the hope someone dies, limited counter-plays, resources are mostly a non-factor except running out of stamina due to constant roll-dodging etc.
Where is the actual depth?
Tell me, I really want to know.
OP since you got so much salt in our system you should just find another “actual PVP” game. I’m guessing instead of trying to learn how to be good at PVP you’re simply losing to some low tier players spamming your aforementioned techniques to “defeat” you in a “not so PVP” fashion. “...defensive mechanism is dodge roll and stun” lmao, what are heals, shields, and kiting. What do you want for a better “defensive mechanism”? Do you want to play a card that makes you immune to damage for 2 seconds after the opponent activated your trap card? “Just spam dizzy onslaught” maybe that’s why dizzy is getting a nerf no? “If you’re out of stamina” no ***? Can you roll in dark souls when you have no stamina? Manage your damn resources.
TL;DR OP is frustrated at being bad at pvp and simplifies PvP to “his own realm” in order to complain about it instead of learning to pvp.
Do you always type like that when you're getting emotional?
So enlighten me how a "high tier" player plays ESO PvP, I'd really like to know.
I did mention shields, but I guess you're too emotional to even read properly. Additionally the kiting reminds me of WoW "PvP" in terms of pillar hugging.
How about actual counter-plays other than moving out of telegraphed ground spells, roll-dodging, spamming shields/absorbs or just swapping to 1h&shield and blocking?
The burden of proof is still on you to show me how my "ESO PvP simplification" is wrong by pointing towards the actual depth of PvP.
What is your idea of "real" PvP?
Maybe your simplified version of what PvP in this game is would be cleared up by your experience in other games or what you think PvP in this game "should" be.
And save the "it's on you" if that's going to be your response. You put this topic up for discussion. If you're not willing to clear up what you're getting at we can all assume this post was nothing more than argument bait.
I'd say pure PvP titles like HoTS or Dota2:- Hitting skillshots, dodging skillshots, canceling casts, decision making when to push/flank/set a trap etc. <-> except ground effects everything in ESO always hits you, there's no aiming involved, and the only thing you can do to not being it is roll-dodging/going invisible
- Resource management is a major thing in Dota2 <-> I can't see the need for a proper resource management in ESO: either you're dead within seconds, or everyone involved lives for ages
- In Dota2 you can have everything from an early push comp, to a mid-game carry reach all the way up to putting your eggs in the basked with 1 hard-carry <-> in ESO it's all about full burst damage, DoT builds, a bow sniper 28m away or the melee 2H rushing at you; all in all it seems like a lot of diversity in terms of skills and playstyle, but at the end they seem to be rather similar in their approach
Clearly: the burden of proof doesn't fall to someone claiming I oversimplified without offering evidence/falsifying my point, but it falls to me.
Logic doesn't seem to be your forte.Edited by daedalusAI on September 24, 2019 6:39PM1
This discussion has been closed.