The bashfest is real, hilariously pointless and in 2 months everything will be business as usual...

MojaveHeld · September 2019

Halcyon_blue wrote: »

One serves an actual purpose even if it gets tiresome to see, and the other...the other is just posts made by people looking to stir the pot.

At least the players expressing anger over the changes are providing ZOS feedback and driving discussion. If you dont like it, just dont go into those threads. Plenty of conversations going on that dont revolve around the patch notes. [/quote]

DPS has increased to over the top levels in the last year. That's not up for debate.

[/quote]
You couldn't be more hilariously wrong if you tried. Current dps is where it needs to be for the vet dlc trials ZOS has been putting out. You're correct that this isn't debatable, but what isn't up for debate is the fact that dps isn't too high, and that anyone claiming otherwise is either delusional, a liar, or both.

SydneyGrey · September 2019

Developers need to understand how players feel about the ridiculously frequent changes.
People are just sick of the ADHD. The changes are just too frequent and too severe.

Halcyon_blue · September 2019

@MojaveHeld you can clear nearly all vetdlc hm, Vmol hm and vcr+3 using BURN strategies... that is my evidence for dps being too high. A burn strategy means you have essentially used your dps to skip mechanics that the fights were designed with.

Whether the majority of the current player base has this level of dps is not my argument.

Where is your evidence for your claims that DPS of 80k+ is necessary to clear vet content?

Or are you implying that *you* need people with 80k+ dps in order to clear content?

furiouslog · September 2019

The real question is whether or not the realities of the nerfs, once optimized and settled, will result in appropriate adjustments to the ubiquitous thresholds established for vet trial runs. I just broke 35K, so I am concerned about what will happen with a 30% overall reduction. To get in most vet trial groups, they want 45-50K dps. I know people who got kicked out of vSS groups for doing sub-40K during the trial. Will these requirements be mathematically possible post-nerf? I hope someone can answer that.

Having gotten back into this game in the past year, the number of changes to my characters and their abilities during that time alone have been making my head swim, and it forces me to go farm, grind, and farm again if I want to optimize to meet these requirements. Then I have to learn a new rotation, and then practice that rotation, and figure out how to pull it off with disconnects and lag and fps stutter all of the rest of it (even with a high end PC and gigabit fios). I can't settle in and learn how to play my way, find a style that optimizes my available skills, and then explore the nuances of that. I keep resetting and starting over again. It's frustrating, and it engenders a lack of trust in the game. If ZOS was managing online chess they'd probably find a reason to nerf the queen.

MojaveHeld · September 2019

Halcyon_blue wrote: »

@MojaveHeld you can clear nearly all vetdlc hm, Vmol hm and vcr+3 using BURN strategies... that is my evidence for dps being too high. A burn strategy means you have essentially used your dps to skip mechanics that the fights were designed with.

Whether the majority of the current player base has this level of dps is not my argument.

Where is your evidence for your claims that DPS of 80k+ is necessary to clear vet content?

Or are you implying that *you* need people with 80k+ dps in order to clear content?

I'm correctly pointing out that having dps on bosses of 80k plus is necessary for all but a very small handful of raid guilds to complete much of this content. So if you're not in one of those 4 or 5 guilds in the world, yes, that is the range dps needs to be in for you to have any shot at completing it. and these aren't scrubs we're talking about, they're teams who are full of people with all the vet DLC trial clears who often spend months working towards this. So to claim that dps is too high is such a blatant and ignorant lie that amounts to a slap in the face to pretty much all vet trials players who aren't in the top couple guilds in the world.

Uryel · September 2019

Bosmers lost their stealth because PvP whiners complained about sniping build, but hey, 25 years of lore don't matter, everything is fine.

Argonians keep saying in every quest they eat poison for breakfast, even though they no longer resist poison, but hey, everything is fine.

Nightblade's top assassination skill is now a tanking skill, and a pretty lame one at that, but everything is fine.

Generaly speaking, adjustments and balance changes are fine, but completely changing the philosophy of a class, skill or race YEARS after the game came out is a [snip] move. There is a huge difference between adjusting the relative power of things and making things work entirely differently. The former makes sense and make gameplay more fair and square, the latter may entirely remove the reasons why a character even exists.

So, I'm personnaly not too worried about the upcoming changes, because they simply can't be worse than what already happened to my 2 favourite characters, who happen to both be Nightblades, and one of them being a Bosmer thief. They can't [snip] my character up more than they already did, and if they do by some extraordinary feat, I'm out for good. I do however understand why some people might not like some changes.

[edited for circumventing profanity filter]

Halcyon_blue · September 2019

Hmm I'm not sure I follow your argument Mojave. You're saying that 80k is necessary for all but the best guilds in the world?

The average dps in an end game guild is not 80k+.

I've been in clears where the average dps was 45k or less. If you are doing mechanics, in many cases that puts your dps around that rate using today's game rules. You can do vmol hm, vas+2, vcr+x, vhof hm, etc with an average dps of 45k. Anything on top makes it faster and facilitates a burn strategy.

If you cannot clear a vet trial without an 80k burn, the problem is not dps ... the problem is that you are failing mechanics.

And mechanics is not what is being argued here.

Also, you still have provided no evidence or statement for your "facts".

Tomokata · September 2019

Halycon Blue likes to evades discussion of the real issue here(one of value ) by passing it off as a matter of 'fact' for 'empiricists' to solve. It's quite condescending actually; while I do not doubt he can answer questions of facts and their causes, he is not competent to answer question of value - which is what the argument on ESO is about. Don't bring a knife to a gun-fight.

MojaveHeld · September 2019

Halcyon_blue wrote: »

Hmm I'm not sure I follow your argument Mojave. You're saying that 80k is necessary for all but the best guilds in the world?

The average dps in an end game guild is not 80k+.

I've been in clears where the average dps was 45k or less. If you are doing mechanics, in many cases that puts your dps around that rate using today's game rules. You can do vmol hm, vas+2, vcr+x, vhof hm, etc with an average dps of 45k. Anything on top makes it faster and facilitates a burn strategy.

If you cannot clear a vet trial without an 80k burn, the problem is not dps ... the problem is that you are failing mechanics.

And mechanics is not what is being argued here.

Also, you still have provided no evidence or statement for your "facts".

Sure, you can do a vHoF HM clear with a 45k average. If everything goes perfectly for you and nobody makes even a tiny mistake. Vet dlc trials are poorly designed, in that they ratchet up what players are forced to deal with high above what the players have available to counteract it. So, if you want a more reasonable clear in vHoF hardmode that still requires following all the mechanics but isn't a pretty much automatic wipe if even one person has a tiny error, 75-80k is about what would do it there. If you're in a TTT group there, you absolutely need that sort of dps, if not higher, to have a reasonable chance at getting the achievement. 3 years of vet trials experience is the source of my facts, but I do notice that you have provided no evidence for your claims. Must have just slipped your mind, because otherwise that would make you quite the hypocrite here.

Uryel · September 2019

MojaveHeld wrote: »

You couldn't be more hilariously wrong if you tried. Current dps is where it needs to be for the vet dlc trials ZOS has been putting out. You're correct that this isn't debatable, but what isn't up for debate is the fact that dps isn't too high, and that anyone claiming otherwise is either delusional, a liar, or both.

YOU couldn't be more hilariously wrong. No one needs a 80k DPS. No one ever needed that. That e-peen contest about DPS is meaningless.

Now who's right ? You, or me ? Aww shucks, neither of us provided any fact. You can say "you're delusional and wrong", but you bring nothing to support the fact that you need that high a DPS. And when I say "no you don't, you're wrong", neither do I.

I don't do raids and vet content, I just don't care about that, so truth be told, I have nothing to say on that matter. I have a *** DPS on any of my characters, but there hasn't been any content I couldn't clear outside of "elitist area". Now maybe you're right. Maybe you need that ludicrous DPS. But nothing you say serves as even a slight hint of supporting evidence. When you claim "X is needed and anyone saying otherwise is a fool", you kinda need to demonstrate it, else it's just opinions and name calling.

Also, 2 years ago 40K DPS was considered really high, and people could clear vet things nonetheless, so I'm inclinded to belive that no one needs double that. Feel free to change my mind. [snip]

[edited for non-constructive/baiting comment]

Halcyon_blue · September 2019

Tomo is a disgruntled former guild member from a pvp guild, so I'm going to ignore him for this thread much like I did in-game as his personal drama and vendetta is of no value to this discussion and nor am I going to be baited by ad hominems. Tomo hasn't been in any vet trials at all since at least a week ago, let alone a clear so if you wish to involve yourself be decent and focus on the information at hand thank you

Let's check some eso logs for clears that have been made publicly available - the top 200 dps from clears of vhof hm:-

https://www.esologs.com/zone/rankings/6#boss=20&page=2

The max was low 70's while the average is far below that... in fact the second 100 average is around the 30k zone.

There's your empirical evidence. And no, anecdotal evidence from your years of experience is not something I could regard as factual - please link us your eso logs or describe a particular issue in detail.

As I stated earlier, your problem is not dps, it's mechanics. Your post above confirms that. In which case, make a thread and points about that, but this has nothing to do with proposed dps changes on the PTS right now.

MojaveHeld · September 2019

Halcyon_blue wrote: »

Tomo is a disgruntled former guild member from a pvp guild, so I'm going to ignore him for this thread much like I did in-game as his personal drama and vendetta is of no value to this discussion and nor am I going to be baited by ad hominems. Tomo hasn't been in any vet trials at all since at least a week ago, let alone a clear so if you wish to involve yourself be decent and focus on the information at hand thank you

Let's check some eso logs for clears that have been made publicly available - the top 200 dps from clears of vhof hm:-

https://www.esologs.com/zone/rankings/6#boss=20&page=2

The max was low 70's while the average is far below that... in fact the second 100 average is around the 30k zone.

There's your empirical evidence. And no, anecdotal evidence from your years of experience is not something I could regard as factual - please link us your eso logs or describe a particular issue in detail.

As I stated earlier, your problem is not dps, it's mechanics. Your post above confirms that. In which case, make a thread and points about that, but this has nothing to do with proposed dps changes on the PTS right now.

Without knowing the group history and composition of what you pulled from ESO logs, there's no way of knowing whether their runs were reasonable or not. No empirical evidence there for you. My actual experience as part of a team doing it earlier this year, is however, factual.

As to your pointless focus on dps vs mechanics, those are actually interwoven. The more unreasonable the mechanic, the higher the dps needed to consistently deal with it. Nearly all of ZOS dlc vet trials have massively overpowered mechanics. Before dps rose sufficiently, clears of those were much lower all around. It would take 6 months for a core team to beat plain ol' vMoL , no HM. So, higher dps was the solution to that problem. You still have to follow all the mechanics on the twins fight in vMoL. The difference is that know you can burn them down after just a few swaps, instead of making your tanks each attempt to wrangle 5 adds while simultaneously tanking the boss. OP later ad waves were the design flaw, having enough dps to burn the bosses before you can get to the heavy adds phases is the solution.

alainjbrennanb16_ESO · September 2019

ZonasArch wrote: »

Halcyon_blue wrote: »

One serves an actual purpose even if it gets tiresome to see, and the other...the other is just posts made by people looking to stir the pot.

At least the players expressing anger over the changes are providing ZOS feedback and driving discussion. If you dont like it, just dont go into those threads. Plenty of conversations going on that dont revolve around the patch notes.

Hang on, there is a significant distinction between quantitative, fact- and empirical-based feedback that provides insights that can be used for decision making and action....

And feedback that is just in essence an emotional outburst and desire to be validated along the lines of an echo chamber.

DPS has increased to over the top levels in the last year. That's not up for debate.

DPS overall *may* be reduced based on the PTS patch notes iteration 1.0 . That hasn't been tested sufficiently, current posts are using like for like builds... essentially being unable to factor a new meta alternative.

Raw DPS, other than for egoic purposes, serves no purpose though - it's counter-play (pvp) and trial clears/ achievement hurdles (pve) that does matter. And no one had yet given any compelling evidence on this.

So no, imho there's been no feedback that's been remotely helpful to this discussion yet. Ergo, stop with the histrionics please.

[/quote]

I had trouble choosing between agree, insightful and awesome.[/quote]

yep i agree dps has got out of hand, but that wont stop guild still wanting 900k - 1 million group dps on test dummy i know of guilds wanting 90k min from dd's and 20k from tanks and healers, but the issue is not just with skills, it has to do with light attacks being peeps highest attack up to 60k

Recent · September 2019

ZonasArch wrote: »

Just like literally every single update ever, even sustain nerf fest that came with Morrowind(I may be wrong in this one, but we all know the one I'm talking about).

I get you're sad and upset, but you're just making yourself look silly... A month after this hits live, everyone of you Meta chasers will be super happy again with your new builds, doing probably the same damage or close to what you have today.

Again, this has always been true, patch after patch, nerf after nerf, and still, power creep is a thing. It's not CP anymore, that's been frozen for a while, and yet, dos is going up, and up, and up... And I'm certain it'll be fine after this patch too.

Cry all you need to cry, it's good to let it out, it may even soften the changes on next pts cycles, but still... Changes will come, and we will eventually work around them. It's the nature of the beast... Not just ESO, any MMO ever. This isn't new, just weird and aggressive, but definitely nothing all that bad.

Have a good day and try to have some fun.

I disagree. Who are you to call the shots? This patch stinks and no amount of deodorizer is capable of masking its stench.
Stinkiest most ridiculous patch ever in the history of bad nerfs in the whole of the gaming industry this one takes the cake.

This is the reason why you don't make big decisions during 'happy hour' 🍸🍺🍹🍷

zaria · September 2019

redspecter23 wrote: »

ZonasArch wrote: »

redspecter23 wrote: »

The people that left the game during changes that they disliked in the past are not here to tell you that they left. People will leave for a variety of reasons every patch. Don't go thinking that it's all just crying and no action. A great many left with Morrowind. I'm sure more than a few will leave with this patch. Will the game go on? Of course it will. People complain because they want to stay and enjoy the game, not leave to try and find something better.

The players that stay will move on and play whatever the meta shifts to or continue playing what they did before. It's the players that leave that have no voice after the fact.

I agree with you, but my point is that those that stayed and adapted are now even better than before. You know why? Because they stayed, learned and improved.

If anything, going back to my title, in a couple months it'll be all fine again, as long as you stay.

I'm not denying the frustrating aspect of this whole thing, just the fact that people make it feel like the world has ended, and it's not. Just a bit of chaos and uncertainty, but it'll not last long. Never does, never will.

For those that choose to stay, it will be fine. My point was that each person has a breaking point. For some it will be when the servers finally go down. I've seen some people quit because they said sorcs didn't have a large enough army of pets for their liking. 20 minutes into the game they were on to something else. Most other people fall in the middle somewhere. Each and every update has made sacrifices in player count, some more than others. I'm not sure it's a good idea to throw long term players away to attrition unless it's absolutely necessary. The dev team has run the numbers and are ok with the calculated losses. That's their prerogative. From my point of view, I don't want to see friends and guildmates leave over such drastic changes and I'd hate to be leaving myself when I hit my break point eventually.

I guess I'm saying that I don't personally feel these current proposed changes are worth the loss in players, even if the game continues. I'd like to think they could accomplish some sort of similar goal without aggravating the playerbase. They knew what they were doing was going to be controversial. I'd hate to think about what ideas they threw away before settling on these proposed changes.

This, its also depend a lot on that you are doing in the game. New players doing the quests the first time stays.
People who is here for the social stays.
The ones who will feel this most is the one into an progression track.

And no I don't think they have an long term strategy, I also belie that combat balance is not done with much thought of the bottom line, nor should it be.
Yes previous patch felt it had an sort of direction, current patch is reversing half of it and add in an lots of nerfs on top wile not reverting the nerfs in previous patch.

Halcyon_blue · September 2019

Mojave, you just literally discounted esologs in favour of your unsubstantiated anecdotal claims.

Not sure there's anywhere we need to go further on that.

And while yes, dps and mechs are interwoven in a fight, the root cause and solution are different - is there a specific mechanic, say in vhof hm, such as execute missiles, that is causing say over 50% (or other desired hurdle) of trial groups to wipe at?

And if so, would addressing that specific mechanic be much more useful than justifying across the board dps increases to bypass said mechanic?

We're going on a tangent to the OP's point so in respect to that I'll leave it there.

MojaveHeld · September 2019

Halcyon_blue wrote: »

Mojave, you just literally discounted esologs in favour of your unsubstantiated anecdotal claims.

Not sure there's anywhere we need to go further on that.

And while yes, dps and mechs are interwoven in a fight, the root cause and solution are different - is there a specific mechanic, say in vhof hm, such as execute missiles, that is causing say over 50% (or other desired hurdle) of trial groups to wipe at?

And if so, would addressing that specific mechanic be much more useful than justifying across the board dps increases to bypass said mechanic?

We're going on a tangent to the OP's point so in respect to that I'll leave it there.

ESOlogs are only useful to those that were in that particular group and know the circumstances in which that data was obtained. So yes, actual personal experience with it gives us much more valuable insight than an outsider looking at a bunch of logs for which they know nothing about the circumstances that produced them. 45k was the minimum for the group we had in vHoF HM. And if anything happened to the players who did pull 60k+ in there, we were screwed. I was one of those 45k dpsers, and I fully realized that if the whole group was like me, we never would have cleared it.

As far as mechanics vs dps, ZOS has shown that they are unwilling to make the changes you suggested in this area. They still have no plans to do so. So having the dps at where it currently is is our only currently feasible solution. If it had been announced in the patch notes alongside the nerfs that "All trials bosses have had their health reduced by 33% and all incoming damage to players is reduced by 50-66%," then yes, you could argue that dps nerfs might be a valid route to take. But they didn't announce that, and have no history of ever making a change like that. So, the only currently viable solution is for dps to stay where it is, no overall nerf to it.

sionIV · September 2019

These updates aren't going to bring in more players. If anything, they're going to alienate the playerbase.

I saw this in WoW and Blizzard before I chose to leave that game during the start of Battle for Azeroth. The developers have a vision, and it's more important for them to follow this vision than it is for the playerbase to enjoy the game. The focus is more on what the developers want, than what the playerbase wants. Blizzard started bleeding players, but they still kept to their vision and ignored the feedback from the playerbase. For many years Blizzard stated that they did not want to release vanilla realms, because it went against what they believed in, the game should progress forward instead of going backwards. It didn't matter that the playerbase wanted these realms, it went against what the developers wanted. Eventually, the loss of players was too much to ignore, and Blizzard introduced vanilla realms. What happened next? There weren't enough vanilla realms, and there were queues in the thousands to enter the few realms that were. It was a financial success for Blizzard, and they didn't just please the playerbase, they brought back many players that had left the game. It was more popular on twitch than the normal game.

What do we learn from this? It's important for the developers to have a vision, but it's just as important if not more important to take into consideration what the playerbase wants. Some people will come forward with the argument: the people on the forum are a minority of the playerbase, and ZOS shouldn't listen to them. The same thing was said on the WoW forum, and you know what? That game kept bleeding millions of players, and it had never been at a worse shape than before the release of vanilla realms.

Hallothiel · September 2019

I have played for more than 5 years and gone through many patches, most of which were greeted with similar warnings of doom and histrionics; so I treat all reactions to patch notes with scepticism until it’s live and see how I can adapt, if necessary.

But then I don’t chase the meta - in fact I heartily dislike that part of the game, where you apparently have to follow one set up (usually Alcast - no disrespect to him) and have the same skills & bloody rotation - it’s dull tedious and boring. So like using different skills - and those complaining about having to level them up - its not hard!

I do have a trials training group, and we work towards clearing vet trials. Not doing too badly (more complicated getting 12 people from all over the globe in 1 place at the same time. Especially when is football season 😆). But we don’t demand ridiculously high dps - we work together, learn the mechs and persevere. And shall continue to do so regardless.

I agree with the OP. And think good constructive feedback is brilliant; pathetic incoherent rants that insult and threaten are unnecessary. And boring.

There is the question though about vet trials and the dps requirement. As pointed out, vMoL used to need 45k - ish. Do the newer ones really need 90k or is that just to avoid the mechs? And what is the skill or fun in that? No need for pesky mechs, we can all just stand in a group whilst the tank taunts the boss away, healers at the back and go through our rotations to burn them down like on a test dummy? Bah - tedious and ridiculous. No thanks.

Deathlord92 · September 2019

I’m annoyed that stamblade sucks since they nerf it there’s certain builds I can’t kill anymore.

ZonasArch · September 2019

sionIV wrote: »

There are two social experiments that you can look at on the ESO forum.

1. There will always people complaining.

2. There will always be people who defend just about anything.

The irony is that the second group somehow feel that their opinion is more just/correct than the first group.

I'm assuming you're in group 1 then? 😋

ZonasArch · September 2019

SydneyGrey wrote: »

Developers need to understand how players feel about the ridiculously frequent changes.
People are just sick of the ADHD. The changes are just too frequent and too severe.

THIS. this I can get behind. It isn't about the nerf for me, it's about the annoyance. Game is fine, game will remain fine, the rollercoaster isn't fun though.

Recent · September 2019

ZonasArch wrote: »

SydneyGrey wrote: »

Developers need to understand how players feel about the ridiculously frequent changes.
People are just sick of the ADHD. The changes are just too frequent and too severe.

THIS. this I can get behind. It isn't about the nerf for me, it's about the annoyance. Game is fine, game will remain fine, the rollercoaster isn't fun though.

I agree 100%. The roller coaster sets off my vertigo...enough already zos

barney2525 · September 2019

Jeremy wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

ZonasArch wrote: »

Just like literally every single update ever, even sustain nerf fest that came with Morrowind(I may be wrong in this one, but we all know the one I'm talking about).

I get you're sad and upset, but you're just making yourself look silly... A month after this hits live, everyone of you Meta chasers will be super happy again with your new builds, doing probably the same damage or close to what you have today.

Again, this has always been true, patch after patch, nerf after nerf, and still, power creep is a thing. It's not CP anymore, that's been frozen for a while, and yet, dos is going up, and up, and up... And I'm certain it'll be fine after this patch too.

Cry all you need to cry, it's good to let it out, it may even soften the changes on next pts cycles, but still... Changes will come, and we will eventually work around them. It's the nature of the beast... Not just ESO, any MMO ever. This isn't new, just weird and aggressive, but definitely nothing all that bad.

Have a good day and try to have some fun.

So your logic is that because people reacted badly to patches before, and it turned out OK, that it must be true again this patch?

That's ... irrational. You're just being contrary and not actually paying attention to what changed.

Wouldn't it be more irrational to assume it wouldn't? If it's worked out in the previous patches and turned out OK - why wouldn't it be rational to assume it would this time as well? It seems to me that is the very definition of rational behavior.

In any case: even if this patch is somehow disastrous for the game (which I severely doubt) the boy who cries wolf parable would aptly apply here. So you can't really blame anyone for taking the approach the OP has considering every previous update in memory has had exactly this kind of apocalyptic reaction. There is only so many times someone can cry wolf before people stop taking it seriously. And I believe we are well passed that point.

But as the author of this thread suggested - power creep is a real thing and it's not the end of the world for developers to take steps to address it. If they over step it they'll likely take steps to correct it - as they did with the recent DoT damage changes.

To answer your question - No. It would Not be more irrational.

Every situation has it's own set of parameters, which makes every situation Unique. Therefore, simply assuming 'everything will be fine ' based on the past, is foolish.

You address the issues about less damage being inflicted by the characters, but you ignore the issue that the 'bad guys' in trials and dungeons are still just as potent as ever. I have seen the 'ads' that people put out to form groups, requiring high levels of offense or don't bother to apply. They need that level of offense in order to be successful. How many characters, with this patch, wiil no longer be able to be successful in those environs?

It is, IMHO, irrational to believe that every change is completely irrelevant and life will go on as normal no matter what changes are applied.

IMHO

EmEm_Oh · September 2019

starkerealm wrote: »

max_only wrote: »

Goat fight
Goat fight!
GOAT FIGHT!
https://youtu.be/xifbHiqhyqo

That's me as a magsorc, dipping into my stam pool...

LiquidPony · September 2019

Jeremy wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

ZonasArch wrote: »

Just like literally every single update ever, even sustain nerf fest that came with Morrowind(I may be wrong in this one, but we all know the one I'm talking about).

I get you're sad and upset, but you're just making yourself look silly... A month after this hits live, everyone of you Meta chasers will be super happy again with your new builds, doing probably the same damage or close to what you have today.

Again, this has always been true, patch after patch, nerf after nerf, and still, power creep is a thing. It's not CP anymore, that's been frozen for a while, and yet, dos is going up, and up, and up... And I'm certain it'll be fine after this patch too.

Cry all you need to cry, it's good to let it out, it may even soften the changes on next pts cycles, but still... Changes will come, and we will eventually work around them. It's the nature of the beast... Not just ESO, any MMO ever. This isn't new, just weird and aggressive, but definitely nothing all that bad.

Have a good day and try to have some fun.

So your logic is that because people reacted badly to patches before, and it turned out OK, that it must be true again this patch?

That's ... irrational. You're just being contrary and not actually paying attention to what changed.

Wouldn't it be more irrational to assume it wouldn't? If it's worked out in the previous patches and turned out OK - why wouldn't it be rational to assume it would this time as well? It seems to me that is the very definition of rational behavior.

In any case: even if this patch is somehow disastrous for the game (which I severely doubt) the boy who cries wolf parable would aptly apply here. So you can't really blame anyone for taking the approach the OP has considering every previous update in memory has had exactly this kind of apocalyptic reaction. There is only so many times someone can cry wolf before people stop taking it seriously. And I believe we are well passed that point.

But as the author of this thread suggested - power creep is a real thing and it's not the end of the world for developers to take steps to address it. If they over step it they'll likely take steps to correct it - as they did with the recent DoT damage changes.

The rational approach is to analyze the changes, do tests, and make a determination as to where DPS is likely to land.

Assuming that "everything's gonna be OK" because that's what happened before isn't rational at all. That's called faith. Faith isn't rational.

There are always two totally useless and opposite forum warrior forces in ESO PTS cycles. The "sky is falling" crowd and the "you guys are overreacting crowd", and the one thing they have in common is that they're not actually on the PTS testing anything; they're just arguing based on some philosophical position they have on the state of the game.

Usually you've got a compensating force in the middle ... the people who are actually testing stuff. However, this time, I think those people are going to be over on the "sky is falling" side of the line more often than not. And I say that because across many hours of testing on PTS on multiple classes, I'm seeing a very large DPS loss no matter how I adjust. In most cases (on stam) about 25%. I'm sure that will creep up a bit more but I don't see much room to close the gap between the 100k+ DPS most builds were doing in U22/U23 and the ~80k DPS I'm seeing a lot of people hit right now.

Whether or people are ignoring the boy who cried wolf, I don't really care. Any forum-goer with two brain cells to rub together can easily differentiate between people who are just crying about patch notes and people who have actually been on PTS and are seeing results that are genuinely concerning.

LiquidPony · September 2019

ZonasArch wrote: »

kringled_1 wrote: »

Halcyon_blue wrote: »

They buffed dots last patch by 50% ish... forum goes up in flames about a skill-less DOT meta.

They adjust dots a proportion back down again... forum goes up in flames about the "constant" nerfs.

This is why humans can't have nice things.

You say this like we're back where we were at Elsweyr launch. But Scalebreaker nerfed all ground AOE dots by 30-40%. And the proposed Dragonhold adjustment takes them down by another 30% or so, and then tacks on a 50% cost increase. (for the most part). There's nothing being substantially buffed that will compensate for that, so yes, people are looking at losing significant amounts of damage.

I'm almost willing to bet parses will be even higher than before, just because it would be hilarious.

Seriously though... You're thinking about a current meta that's being nerfed, but you forget that the game has so many other skills that people simply stopped using this time around in favor of more dots. They are called spammables... Hehe new rotations will come and DPS will be fine. I promise you. All it takes is replacing skills and getting new rotation, as per usual. How much of that 30-40% relative loss will be recovered, hard to say yet, but it will be close enough that it won't matter for most people. Remember... 5% loss for most people isn't even 1k damage... That's RNG range.... You can lose 1k DPS of you sneeze during a fight...

So all this only matters for the 35k+ people, where 5% is close to 2k DPS and that's already on appreciable range. And even here... Only against a dummy. On real world situations, maybe not so much of a difference either.

No... This isn't a good patch for DPS at all, but far from being terrible, even further from being what the forum dwellers seem to believe. Let's give it a week and see what comes...

@ZonasArch
You're "willing to bet parses will be even higher than before" ... based on what?

Can you tell me what DPS results you are seeing on various classes/builds on PTS v5.2.0?

The_Lex · September 2019

sionIV wrote: »

There are two social experiments that you can look at on the ESO forum.

1. There will always people complaining.

2. There will always be people who defend just about anything.

The irony is that the second group somehow feel that their opinion is more just/correct than the first group.

^^^^^

ZOS_RogerJ · September 2019

Just a friendly reminder that it’s okay to disagree and debate on the official ESO forums, but we do ask that you keep all disagreements civil, constructive, and on-topic.

Canned_Apples · September 2019

no it wont.
I rarely complain about changes but these are ridiculous. cp breaks everything.