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Smart nerfing vs dumb nerfing
Gnortranermara
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Let's get one major point out of the way right off the top: players should very rightfully consider any ~50% nerf to be a sign of absolute incompetence. Seriously. That's dumb nerfing. There's no excuse for nerfs of this magnitude, ever. That much is plain old common sense that should not even need to be said, because something so absurd should never happen. But that is painfully obvious, so let's move on to some more nuanced observations:
DPS in this game has definitely gotten way too high, and the gap between the casual floor and the elite ceiling is bigger than the Grand Canyon. The cause of this massive DPS gap is easy to identify: light attack weaving. Light attack weaving is a major DPS boost, but it is sensitive to both player skill and server performance. During lag times and on low-performing consoles, weaving very often results in either missed inputs or getting stuck in heavy attack animations.
So, what is the rational, sensible, and obvious solution to the runaway DPS ceiling? Hint: it's not a 50% nerf to DOT's. The 2.5x modifier to DoT's may need to be dialed down to 2x, but going down to 1.25x is frankly stupid.
Just nerf light attacks. (And sure, why not, go ahead and make it -50%.) There's no rational reason light attacks should have ever been overbuffed to such an extreme, anyway. That was one of the dumbest things that He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named did before he left ZOS, so reverse it.
Nerfing light attacks instead of DoT's will help lower the DPS ceiling, reduce the gap between casual and elite players, and prevent this major blow to all casual players' ability to complete content. That's smart nerfing. Is that too much to ask?
Edited by Gnortranermara on September 17, 2019 1:17AM DPS in this game has definitely gotten way too high, and the gap between the casual floor and the elite ceiling is bigger than the Grand Canyon. The cause of this massive DPS gap is easy to identify: light attack weaving. Light attack weaving is a major DPS boost, but it is sensitive to both player skill and server performance. During lag times and on low-performing consoles, weaving very often results in either missed inputs or getting stuck in heavy attack animations.
So, what is the rational, sensible, and obvious solution to the runaway DPS ceiling? Hint: it's not a 50% nerf to DOT's. The 2.5x modifier to DoT's may need to be dialed down to 2x, but going down to 1.25x is frankly stupid.
Just nerf light attacks. (And sure, why not, go ahead and make it -50%.) There's no rational reason light attacks should have ever been overbuffed to such an extreme, anyway. That was one of the dumbest things that He-Who-Shall-Not-Be-Named did before he left ZOS, so reverse it.
Nerfing light attacks instead of DoT's will help lower the DPS ceiling, reduce the gap between casual and elite players, and prevent this major blow to all casual players' ability to complete content. That's smart nerfing. Is that too much to ask?
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Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I also find it odd that things like twin slashes and poison injection received an insane 62% nerf while entropy and soul trap escaped with 50%. I think its all insanely over the top but why the discrepancy? Now twin slashes has literally one function the it sucks at. the 50% nerf makes sense for entropy as its also a utility skill with multiple functions.2 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭-50% was the smart nerf. Only dumb thing is we had to get these dots to a point where something like 50% nerf became smart thing.4 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I also find it odd that things like twin slashes and poison injection received an insane 62% nerf while entropy and soul trap escaped with 50%. I think its all insanely over the top but why the discrepancy? Now twin slashes has literally one function the it sucks at. the 50% nerf makes sense for entropy as its also a utility skill with multiple functions.
That won't go live with this numbers, or game is as good as dead. Dot tooltips are simply laughable and heals weren't nerfed, so good luck getting through all that healing without help of dots (and with nerfed cc's and snares).3 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭-50% was the smart nerf. Only dumb thing is we had to get these dots to a point where something like 50% nerf became smart thing.
lol
The passive bleed from an axe is doing 50% more damage than the DoTs from vMA DW empowered Rending Slashes or Poison Injection.
There's nothing "smart" about this. I mean, come on. Let's be serious.
Patch 5.1.0:
* Twin Slashes: Increased the Damage over Time from this ability and its morphs by approximately 37%.
* Barbed Trap: The damage per tick has increased by approximately 33%, since it was lower than the base morph.
* Poison Arrow: Increased the damage over time portion on all morphs by approximately 78% per tick.
Patch 5.2.0:
* Twin Slashes: Decreased the damage per tick of this ability and its morphs damage over time by approximately 63%.
* Barbed Trap: Reduced the damage per tick of this ability and its morphs by approximately 63%.
* Poison Arrow: Decreased the damage per tick of this ability and its morphs by approximately 63%.
This is obviously ridiculous. These people have no idea what they're doing.Edited by LiquidPony on September 17, 2019 1:35AM13 -
Nerhesi✭✭✭✭-50% was the smart nerf. Only dumb thing is we had to get these dots to a point where something like 50% nerf became smart thing.
No.
You literally just removed a viable option from the game.
"Can I build DoT or- "
"No, sorry. DoTs are a trap now - it's just a cosmetic piece of getting XXX Major buff. If you get that from other means, then great - ditch the dot!"
Literally the complete opposite direction of good game design - you're reducing meaningful choices from the meta.4 -
BahometZ✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Many people boggled at the massive buffs that DoT got last patch and very grudgingly adjusted their rotations, only to watch it all washed away in the very next patch. It's just poor management of the game.
Now there are people (not in this thread, thankfully) complaining that we whinge when they're buffed, and whinge when they're nerfed. How about no. We are upset because huge adjustments like this are turmoil to our playing time, and as OP has imo rightly pointed out, a terrible sign of the vision and competency of the devs. Swinging between vastly different numbers shows little thought or planning.
We could also see how crazy the DoTs were going to be. Why is it that the player base is condemned to sit and watch the inevitable wrecking ball glide into our faces?Pact Magplar - Max CP (NA XB)3 -
Gnortranermara✭✭✭✭✭
✭I also find it odd that things like twin slashes and poison injection received an insane 62% nerf while entropy and soul trap escaped with 50%. I think its all insanely over the top but why the discrepancy?
IDK.... maybe trying to bring stam DPS down a little further. Either way, it's lunacy.0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Considering we have had significant powercreep over the past few years, well beyond the added CP, it would seem a significant reduction in dps would be great for the game as much of the content has been trivialized. You even acknowledge that though you incorrectly claim it is due to one thing when it is due to a host of changes Zos has made over the years.
BTW, coming off all abrasive and aggressive as OP has calling it incompetent and especially putting it in bold that you think it is dumb is a great way to be ignored for very intelligent reasons. It is obvious from the start it is just a rage rant and is very unlikely to provide any insightful feedback.0 -
Casterial✭✭✭✭✭
✭Smart nerfing:
- feel
- data
- combo/counter plays
Dumb nerfing:
- data
ZoS I think leans more into data.Daggerfall Covenant:Casterial Stamplar || Casterial DK || Availed NB || Castyrial Sorc || Spooky Casterial Necro
Member since: August 2013
Kill Counter Developer
For the Daggerfall Covenant
The Last Chillrend Empress
Animation Cancelling3 -
Stibbons✭✭✭✭✭I also find it odd that things like twin slashes and poison injection received an insane 62% nerf while entropy and soul trap escaped with 50%. I think its all insanely over the top but why the discrepancy? Now twin slashes has literally one function the it sucks at. the 50% nerf makes sense for entropy as its also a utility skill with multiple functions.
Who cares. I will not personally slot ANY of those when this hits live. Just direct damage burst damage meta now.1 -
Casterial✭✭✭✭✭
✭I also find it odd that things like twin slashes and poison injection received an insane 62% nerf while entropy and soul trap escaped with 50%. I think its all insanely over the top but why the discrepancy? Now twin slashes has literally one function the it sucks at. the 50% nerf makes sense for entropy as its also a utility skill with multiple functions.
Who cares. I will not personally slot ANY of those when this hits live. Just direct damage burst damage meta now.
Agreed on this. My rending went from doing 800-1.2k/sec to 400-550/sec. Lol...Daggerfall Covenant:Casterial Stamplar || Casterial DK || Availed NB || Castyrial Sorc || Spooky Casterial Necro
Member since: August 2013
Kill Counter Developer
For the Daggerfall Covenant
The Last Chillrend Empress
Animation Cancelling0 -
BrentBlemish✭✭✭✭I think the sensible thing to do... is revert the DoT numbers back to before 5.1.0
Before they started tweaking the DoT numbers, they were fine. in a good solid place... This new. current state is.... just... No words. Especially on a stam DK.
If they really want to stick with these changes then i purpose this. Only focus on nerfing DoTs that all classes have access to. Like weapon abilities or guild abilities. But the minute you start taking these values and applying them to class abilities, you start ruining class identity.
If you want to have a DoT focused class, then the clear winner should be DK.
using the same nerf values to the DKs DoT abilities is IMO on par with nerfing Cloak on NBs into the ground. You are destroying class identity.
Class skills should bend the rules. since they are only available to that class. Weapon abilities and guild abilities are universal and not unique to any class.... unless mage guild vs fighters guild, but you get the picture.
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