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Has ZOS forgotten the most basic premise of MMORPGs?
krachall
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It's simple and sticking to this premise is all you need to do to keep us mice happily running on your treadmill. Yet someone at ZOS seems to have lost the forest through the trees. The simple premise is:
The more you play, the more power you gain and the more stuff you can do.
Yes, it's that easy. Build a character. Accomplish stuff. Get stronger. Accomplish more challenging stuff. Repeat ad nauseum while happily paying $15/mo. EverQuest figured it out in 1999 and MMORPGs have successfully followed that model for 20 years.
[snip]
Edit for bashing.]
Edited by ZOS_GregoryV on September 17, 2019 6:43PM The more you play, the more power you gain and the more stuff you can do.
Yes, it's that easy. Build a character. Accomplish stuff. Get stronger. Accomplish more challenging stuff. Repeat ad nauseum while happily paying $15/mo. EverQuest figured it out in 1999 and MMORPGs have successfully followed that model for 20 years.
[snip]
Edit for bashing.]
20
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WoppaBoem✭✭✭✭✭I like the changes there good so get out of PVE go into PVP where power isn't the only thing but survival and actual kills as a measure rather than have high tooltips you will love it
Xbox EU & NA - PVP Only2 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It's simple and sticking to this premise is all you need to do to keep us mice happily running on your treadmill. Yet someone at ZOS seems to have lost the forest through the trees. The simple premise is:
The more you play, the more power you gain and the more stuff you can do.
Yes, it's that easy. Build a character. Accomplish stuff. Get stronger. Accomplish more challenging stuff. Repeat ad nauseum while happily paying $15/mo. EverQuest figured it out in 1999 and MMORPGs have successfully followed that model for 20 years.
[snip]
Edit for bashing.]
I agree with you in part. This game does need to include a Veteran Avenue of content that continuously scales with the obtainable power of your character. Letting the content stagnate while your character continues to grow more powerful results in what we have now - which is a laughably easy environment for high level characters to explore and quest in.
But let's be honest Krachail - the damage has gotten out of hand even for on par characters. Any character - new or not - who takes the time to put together a decent build and upgrade their armor is going to obliterate. The game shouldn't be balanced around nude characters punching things.Edited by ZOS_GregoryV on September 17, 2019 6:44PM0 -
Ruinhorn✭✭✭✭[Quoted post has been removed.]
Buying tons of crowns and supporting such decisions is players incompetence.
What you vote for is what you get. You vote with cash to play on broken EU server, bugs and lags and constant crown store feeder. A chance there is a single company in this universe who cares about cries on forums tends to zero.
Edited by ZOS_GregoryV on September 17, 2019 6:46PM3 -
iris56✭✭✭It's simple and sticking to this premise is all you need to do to keep us mice happily running on your treadmill. Yet someone at ZOS seems to have lost the forest through the trees. The simple premise is:
The more you play, the more power you gain and the more stuff you can do.
Yes, it's that easy. Build a character. Accomplish stuff. Get stronger. Accomplish more challenging stuff. Repeat ad nauseum while happily paying $15/mo. EverQuest figured it out in 1999 and MMORPGs have successfully followed that model for 20 years.
[snip]
Edit for bashing.]
I agree with you in part. This game does need to include a Veteran Avenue of content that continuously scales with the obtainable power of your character. Letting the content stagnate while your character continues to grow more powerful results in what we have now - which is a laughably easy environment for high level characters to explore and quest in.
But let's be honest Krachail - the damage has gotten out of hand even for on par characters. Any character - new or not - who takes the time to put together a decent build and upgrade their armor is going to obliterate. The game shouldn't be balanced around nude characters punching things.
And yet the completion rates for truly difficult PVE achievements are insanely low. Only a handful of groups have tick-tock tormenter and those progression groups that are and should be trying for those difficult achievements changes are going to get hit the hardest by these changes. Its really hard to improve when the rug keeps getting pulled out from under you.
Edited by ZOS_GregoryV on September 17, 2019 6:48PM3 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭It's simple and sticking to this premise is all you need to do to keep us mice happily running on your treadmill. Yet someone at ZOS seems to have lost the forest through the trees. The simple premise is:
The more you play, the more power you gain and the more stuff you can do.
Yes, it's that easy. Build a character. Accomplish stuff. Get stronger. Accomplish more challenging stuff. Repeat ad nauseum while happily paying $15/mo. EverQuest figured it out in 1999 and MMORPGs have successfully followed that model for 20 years.
But ZOS seems to be incapable of completing half of the equation: "more challenging stuff." So instead of increasing the numerator, they take the easy road and decrease the denominator.
Making characters WEAKER as your game ages to compensate for your inability to create content that matches the additions YOU made to YOUR game is incompetence.
I agree with you in part. This game does need to include a Veteran Avenue of content that continuously scales with the obtainable power of your character. Letting the content stagnate while your character continues to grow more powerful results in what we have now - which is a laughably easy environment for high level characters to explore and quest in.
But let's be honest Krachail - the damage has gotten out of hand even for on par characters. Any character - new or not - who takes the time to put together a decent build and upgrade their armor is going to obliterate. The game shouldn't be balanced around nude characters punching things.
And yet the completion rates for truly difficult PVE achievements are insanely low. Only a handful of groups have tick-tock tormenter and those progression groups that are and should be trying for those difficult achievements changes are going to get hit the hardest by these changes. Its really hard to improve when the rug keeps getting pulled out from under you.
If certain high end content like Veteran Trials becomes too difficult as a result I would not oppose adjusting them. But the game can't be focused or balanced around Veteran Trials - which encompasses a tiny fraction of this game's content and player participation. There is an entire game out there that is beginning to languish due to players simply being too powerful for it. The developers finally recognized this too - which is why they have held off on further CP increases. Something had to be done.
I'm not saying this is the best approach - or even my preferred approach - but it's certainly a valid approach and isn't going to ruin the game.1 -
nafensoriel✭✭✭✭✭It's simple and sticking to this premise is all you need to do to keep us mice happily running on your treadmill. Yet someone at ZOS seems to have lost the forest through the trees. The simple premise is:
The more you play, the more power you gain and the more stuff you can do.
Yes, it's that easy. Build a character. Accomplish stuff. Get stronger. Accomplish more challenging stuff. Repeat ad nauseum while happily paying $15/mo. EverQuest figured it out in 1999 and MMORPGs have successfully followed that model for 20 years.
[snip]
Edit for bashing.]
[snip]
MMOs have done worse than this for less logical reasons. Powercreep nerfs are GOING to happen to any MMO thats been alive a few years.
Also, the myth that a game is made to operate the way you envision it is just wrong. It's a product. It will have things you like... and thinks you hate. YOU don't get to choose what those things are. You get to CHOOSE to pay for the product... or not.
History has also shown us(pretty much every single patch actually) that all this uproar is pointless and entirely normal for ESO forums around patch time.
Heck, 1T was thought to be the death of the game. Turned out those people were wrong too.
[Edit for bait.]Edited by ZOS_GregoryV on September 17, 2019 6:56PM2 -
BrianLovesLisa✭✭✭✭✭It's simple and sticking to this premise is all you need to do to keep us mice happily running on your treadmill. Yet someone at ZOS seems to have lost the forest through the trees. The simple premise is:
The more you play, the more power you gain and the more stuff you can do.
Yes, it's that easy. Build a character. Accomplish stuff. Get stronger. Accomplish more challenging stuff. Repeat ad nauseum while happily paying $15/mo. EverQuest figured it out in 1999 and MMORPGs have successfully followed that model for 20 years.
[snip]
Edit for bashing.]
I agree with you in part. This game does need to include a Veteran Avenue of content that continuously scales with the obtainable power of your character. Letting the content stagnate while your character continues to grow more powerful results in what we have now - which is a laughably easy environment for high level characters to explore and quest in.
But let's be honest Krachail - the damage has gotten out of hand even for on par characters. Any character - new or not - who takes the time to put together a decent build and upgrade their armor is going to obliterate. The game shouldn't be balanced around nude characters punching things.
And yet the completion rates for truly difficult PVE achievements are insanely low. Only a handful of groups have tick-tock tormenter and those progression groups that are and should be trying for those difficult achievements changes are going to get hit the hardest by these changes. Its really hard to improve when the rug keeps getting pulled out from under you.
If certain high end content like Veteran Trials becomes too difficult as a result I would not oppose adjusting them. But the game can't be focused or balanced around Veteran Trials - which encompasses a tiny fraction of this game's content and player participation. There is an entire game out there that is beginning to languish due to players simply being too powerful for it. The developers finally recognized this too - which is why they have held off on further CP increases. Something had to be done.
I'm not saying this is the best approach - or even my preferred approach - but it's certainly a valid approach and isn't going to ruin the game.
Overland is not "a whole game"Edited by ZOS_GregoryV on September 17, 2019 7:17PM3 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭[Quoted post has been removed.]
I love this sentence. OP seems to not realize that it is pretty common for MMORPGs to make our characters weak at regular intervals. It happens every single time they raise the character lvl and you once again have to grind for gear one tier then another tier.
Zos does it without being all sneaking like that and some people call it incompetence. lol I guess it is better to be tricky so some players do not notice it.Edited by ZOS_GregoryV on September 17, 2019 7:21PM1 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭BrianLovesLisa wrote: »It's simple and sticking to this premise is all you need to do to keep us mice happily running on your treadmill. Yet someone at ZOS seems to have lost the forest through the trees. The simple premise is:
The more you play, the more power you gain and the more stuff you can do.
Yes, it's that easy. Build a character. Accomplish stuff. Get stronger. Accomplish more challenging stuff. Repeat ad nauseum while happily paying $15/mo. EverQuest figured it out in 1999 and MMORPGs have successfully followed that model for 20 years.
[snip]
Edit for bashing.]
I agree with you in part. This game does need to include a Veteran Avenue of content that continuously scales with the obtainable power of your character. Letting the content stagnate while your character continues to grow more powerful results in what we have now - which is a laughably easy environment for high level characters to explore and quest in.
But let's be honest Krachail - the damage has gotten out of hand even for on par characters. Any character - new or not - who takes the time to put together a decent build and upgrade their armor is going to obliterate. The game shouldn't be balanced around nude characters punching things.
And yet the completion rates for truly difficult PVE achievements are insanely low. Only a handful of groups have tick-tock tormenter and those progression groups that are and should be trying for those difficult achievements changes are going to get hit the hardest by these changes. Its really hard to improve when the rug keeps getting pulled out from under you.
If certain high end content like Veteran Trials becomes too difficult as a result I would not oppose adjusting them. But the game can't be focused or balanced around Veteran Trials - which encompasses a tiny fraction of this game's content and player participation. There is an entire game out there that is beginning to languish due to players simply being too powerful for it. The developers finally recognized this too - which is why they have held off on further CP increases. Something had to be done.
I'm not saying this is the best approach - or even my preferred approach - but it's certainly a valid approach and isn't going to ruin the game.
Overland is not "a whole game"
I was not just referring to the overland (though that is a fair chunk of the game). I'm also referring to nearly every normal dungeon and most veteran dungeons as well. Players have simply become too powerful for them.Edited by ZOS_GregoryV on September 17, 2019 7:23PM0 -
LegacyDM✭✭✭✭✭
✭Zos business model has always been to cater to casuals or players who are not good at the game. If bad players “feel powerful” because the content is weak than they are more likely to stick around and play the next DLC vs a bad player who can’t beat content because it is too hard. Zos takes the easy way. They figure the hardcore players will beat the pve and move into pvp or trials. Zos doesn’t want a dark souls or remnant. They want people to easily win so people don’t rage quit and leave. I bet there are more casuals who are happy walking through content than those who want a challenge.Legacy of Kain
Vicious Carnage
¥ampire Lord of the South0 -
Donny_Vito✭✭✭✭✭
✭The only way they'll forget about the MMORPG basics will be when the Crown Store takes a hit. A lot of time it's said jokingly, but from a business standpoint I can only imagine the Crown Store is extremely profitable. If these recent changes have resulted in gross profit increases, you can bet we'll see more of them. You seriously think it's a coincidence that full skill lines are now available to be purchased at the same time they completely re-work combat which results in having to change, or build, new characters. It's a scheme, or tactic, for lack of better words.
Edit: typoEdited by Donny_Vito on September 17, 2019 5:54PM0 -
Jeremy✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Zos business model has always been to cater to casuals or players who are not good at the game. If bad players “feel powerful” because the content is weak than they are more likely to stick around and play the next DLC vs a bad player who can’t beat content because it is too hard. Zos takes the easy way. They figure the hardcore players will beat the pve and move into pvp or trials. Zos doesn’t want a dark souls or remnant. They want people to easily win so people don’t rage quit and leave. I bet there are more casuals who are happy walking through content than those who want a challenge.
There is a lot of middle ground between Dark Souls and then content that is challenging enough to be interesting. And that is the middle ground ZoS needs to find and I believe that is what they are attempting to do here.
We'll see.Edited by Jeremy on September 17, 2019 6:09PM0 -
LegacyDM✭✭✭✭✭
✭Zos business model has always been to cater to casuals or players who are not good at the game. If bad players “feel powerful” because the content is weak than they are more likely to stick around and play the next DLC vs a bad player who can’t beat content because it is too hard. Zos takes the easy way. They figure the hardcore players will beat the pve and move into pvp or trials. Zos doesn’t want a dark souls or remnant. They want people to easily win so people don’t rage quit and leave. I bet there are more casuals who are happy walking through content than those who want a challenge.
There is a lot of middle ground between Dark Souls and then content that is challenging enough to be interesting. And that is middle ground ZoS needs to find and I believe that is what they are attempting to do here.
We'll see.
Attempting to do?
When? The last time content was actually challenging was when the game released and it was actually hard to beat dosha. (And dosha wasn’t even close to dark souls difficulty.) yet people still raged, So many people started raging on the forums Zos made everything weak and never looked back or thought twice about it. Why start now? They’ve had years to make content harder. Yet they keep releasing brain dead DLC/ chapter content. Do you think they are going to make content harder? Or take the easy way out and revamp the CP system and dumb it down in a way to keep the status quo.Edited by LegacyDM on September 17, 2019 6:18PMLegacy of Kain
Vicious Carnage
¥ampire Lord of the South0 -
Bouldercleave✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭nafensoriel wrote: »It's simple and sticking to this premise is all you need to do to keep us mice happily running on your treadmill. Yet someone at ZOS seems to have lost the forest through the trees. The simple premise is:
The more you play, the more power you gain and the more stuff you can do.
Yes, it's that easy. Build a character. Accomplish stuff. Get stronger. Accomplish more challenging stuff. Repeat ad nauseum while happily paying $15/mo. EverQuest figured it out in 1999 and MMORPGs have successfully followed that model for 20 years.
[snip]
Edit for bashing.]
Heck, 1T was thought to be the death of the game. Turned out those people were wrong too.
No, but in my opinion 1T was the moment when they started turning the ship into the wrong direction. 1T all but killed the storyline, broke the three banners war (the PREMISE of the game), and started us on a wonky path of odd vertical / horizontal progression, the birth of CP (a flawed system), and inevitably a game with no set direction.
Edited by ZOS_GregoryV on September 17, 2019 7:25PM0 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭nafensoriel wrote: »[snip]
MMOs have done worse than this for less logical reasons. Powercreep nerfs are GOING to happen to any MMO thats been alive a few years.
[Edit for bait.]
This. I played WoW from vanilla through.... Cata? My Hunter went through all sorts of ups & downs. Nerfed into the ground, buffed back up, preferred in dungeons, banned from dungeons... the pendulum swung all over the place. And there were plenty of other people moaning about what they did to their favorite classes at various times.
(Star Trek Online has also gone through several rounds of "This meta is too strong! Hit it with a sledgehammer. Ok, now this meta is too strong! Hit it with a sledgehammer!" in the last few years.)
Not as quickly & strongly as some of the recent ESO patches, of course. But it did happen.Edited by ZOS_GregoryV on September 17, 2019 7:26PM0 -
Casterial✭✭✭✭✭
✭Kind of done in an insulting manner, but yes. ZOS nerfs instead of buffing content.
I do agree, I can't do content because even on my fresh level 1s it's a joke now /:Daggerfall Covenant:Casterial Stamplar || Casterial DK || Availed NB || Castyrial Sorc || Spooky Casterial Necro
Member since: August 2013
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