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How to make PvP more friendly and inviting to PvErs?
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Reistr_the_Unbroken✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Remember WildStar? Now how did that work out for them?Rave the Histborn wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »
I'm avoiding the event because I don't care about the rewards and it's a complete waste of my time.Rave the Histborn wrote: »You on the other hand don't have a tune, you say you love Cyro and you hate IC, then you're going to wait to do the quest lines if it gets done, then you've actually got about a hundred hours in IC from when it was part of Cyro and a few hours in the new campaign. You know all about the event and what people are going through with sewer platforms but you're avoiding this event at the same time.
True, I've only visited IC quite sporadically during this event (as I outlined earlier) - but loadscreen camping of players is nothing new, and the exact same thing was happening during the 5th anniversary event, which I did participate in during the PvP week.
We're getting increasingly off track here, so let's bring things back in line:
The OP's point was how PvP can be made more friendly to newcomers.
My point is that when a new player goes through the sewer door and loads in dead on the opposite side, that sends a very specific kind of message.
The exact kind of message that you do NOT want to be sending to new PvPers, if you want to encourage them to stay and enjoy actual PvP.
Your point that there are alternate paths through the districts is technically valid, but not relevant to the discussion.
The fact remains, that there are exploiters who are engaging in a form of behavior which is extremely destructive to ESO's PvP community in the long term.
And the fact that you are effectively defending the exploiters by trying to handwave the problem away and claiming that "hurr durr it's legit PvP", makes me begin to wonder if you are not actually one of those players.
Heres the thing. If your hypothetical person loads into pvp and dies that is part of the game. It is very very rare for this to happen on a loadscreen outside of this event and if this is something preventing people from joing pvp well they never wanted to pvp in the first place. Death is part of pvp and if dying is going to put you off you shouldn't even bother joining.
It is very much the message you want to be sending people though. You are in a warzone and war is cruel and you are going to die. You need to to think for yourself and be prepared. This isn't pve, the path isnt provided for you, you're going to need to do it on your own. If you're getting ganked going through doors buff up before so if you get attacked you have a chance to fight back.
My point isn't technically valid it is 100% valid and relevant. None of these players need to go through the sewer entrance and if you keep going out and getting farmed it is your fault. There's 8 ways out of the sewers. If you can't figure out how to not get farmed by using a different door then I'm not sure how to help.
There are exploiters in every game though so your point doesn't really stand though. This also isn't an exploit as it has been part of IC since launch, as much as you keep trying to paint it as such. If it was it would be fixed or there would have been an instakill like every other spawn not meant to be accessed. If you choose to LA spam down and someone Dragon Leaps up, not sure what to tell you, that's part of the game and you just gave that player access to the base. It's called taking responsibility.
I'm sorry but you dont just get to label everyone as an exploiter to fit your narrative. If it was an exploit it would have been changed, it isnt, end of story.
Lol I was on White Gold the other night helping people kill 2 griefing NBs that kept dual spamming meteors once you left base spawn. 4 or 5 deaths later and I find them in a different room stealthing (did you know you can find NBs in stealth without detection? Stealth up and use the eye you get. It won't knock them out of stealth but it will be completely open when you're right next to them. You can then spam an aoe and knock them out of stealth) and we fight and I killed them.
PVP is about learning from your mistakes, adapting, and surviving. There is no incentive beyond personal incentive. If you die and it turns you off from a zone completely I get it but you dont go suddenly change that entire zone around for 1% of the population that vocally hate it already.
You don't seem to understand a very important thing: it's not dying that turns off people from PvP. That's acceptable. But if you are slaughtered repeatedly without any chance to fight or even to land a hit against your opponent... that can remove people forever from PvP. You can't learn anything about PvP if you are waiting in a loading screen and then return to be a ghost. More precisely you will learn one thing: "it's pointless time-wasting, I'm better to do anything else".
You don't seem to pvp so let me explain it as someone that originally had to ask how to leave Cyro and has worked their way up.
I started playing in Cyro to get skyshards and I ran around with loads of treasure maps to farm up the EP style, I fell in love with how open it was and I really enjoyed the quests and the feels of the towns. I play a tank and pve so I'd roll heavy armor and wonder why I couldnt kill anything but still, it kept me alive. I joined pugs and eventually learned how to siege and when you're part of a pug you're eventually going to ball into another pug. You die a lot during this and I mean a lot. Sure it's discouraging but as you play you le as rn when to block, you recognize aoes and what you're standing in, you learn to buff up more often and pack a self he or 2. All stuff you can get away with in pve in most content but not in Cyrodiil. It is. O different from what players have to do in pve, gear, mechanics, etc. the learning curve is much steeper because there are human opponents not computer code designed with attack phases.
I get the loadscreens suck. I started learning Cyrodiil when infinite loadscreens were still a thing and you'd have to restart the game to get back in to find out you died to respawn and get another infinite screen. You need to realize these arent specific to you or anyone else it happens to everyone. The people farming you now were at one point rank 1. My main is a mDK in light armor and I have no problems taking on a 1v4 or 5 any more. Pvp is much harder to learn but if you stick with it you'll realize all of these problems are mental and easily conquered.
You are right, I'm not an active PvP player. But it's not because of Cyrodiil, or IC, or loading screens, or crashes. It's because I have 15 years of MMORPG experience, I've played more than a dozen of them and I have tried PvP in every single one of them - and I didn't find it enjoyable in any of them. There was only one game which was great for me, Atlas Reactor, and it doesn't exist any more.
Trust me, I know where to look for tips, I know about not standing in red and bring a few self-heal, I know when to run, when to strike back and how to find a fight - if I wanted to do that. I'm simply not interested in it... but that doesn't mean I don't have any clue why PvP get so little love from an average player.
Edit: typos...
Heres the thing, the average player seems to vary widely from person to person. I've seen some people say the average person won't have access to pvp gear and skills and others say that the average player can't make it out of the sewers base. Either way I've pvped in multiple mmos Nd this is the best pvp so far
Both are valid reasons for anybody to skip PvP - and since most of the players are skipping, we can say both are true for an average player.
They arent valid reasons to skip anything. It is as easy to gear in pvp as it is in pve. The average player also has a lot of pve, some could argue too much. Maybe if that was cut down in order to further put resources into server performance (pvp is more server dependent then pve) we'd see pvp not ignored.
3 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭jainiadral wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »
I'm avoiding the event because I don't care about the rewards and it's a complete waste of my time.Rave the Histborn wrote: »You on the other hand don't have a tune, you say you love Cyro and you hate IC, then you're going to wait to do the quest lines if it gets done, then you've actually got about a hundred hours in IC from when it was part of Cyro and a few hours in the new campaign. You know all about the event and what people are going through with sewer platforms but you're avoiding this event at the same time.
True, I've only visited IC quite sporadically during this event (as I outlined earlier) - but loadscreen camping of players is nothing new, and the exact same thing was happening during the 5th anniversary event, which I did participate in during the PvP week.
We're getting increasingly off track here, so let's bring things back in line:
The OP's point was how PvP can be made more friendly to newcomers.
My point is that when a new player goes through the sewer door and loads in dead on the opposite side, that sends a very specific kind of message.
The exact kind of message that you do NOT want to be sending to new PvPers, if you want to encourage them to stay and enjoy actual PvP.
Your point that there are alternate paths through the districts is technically valid, but not relevant to the discussion.
The fact remains, that there are exploiters who are engaging in a form of behavior which is extremely destructive to ESO's PvP community in the long term.
And the fact that you are effectively defending the exploiters by trying to handwave the problem away and claiming that "hurr durr it's legit PvP", makes me begin to wonder if you are not actually one of those players.
Heres the thing. If your hypothetical person loads into pvp and dies that is part of the game. It is very very rare for this to happen on a loadscreen outside of this event and if this is something preventing people from joing pvp well they never wanted to pvp in the first place. Death is part of pvp and if dying is going to put you off you shouldn't even bother joining.
It is very much the message you want to be sending people though. You are in a warzone and war is cruel and you are going to die. You need to to think for yourself and be prepared. This isn't pve, the path isnt provided for you, you're going to need to do it on your own. If you're getting ganked going through doors buff up before so if you get attacked you have a chance to fight back.
My point isn't technically valid it is 100% valid and relevant. None of these players need to go through the sewer entrance and if you keep going out and getting farmed it is your fault. There's 8 ways out of the sewers. If you can't figure out how to not get farmed by using a different door then I'm not sure how to help.
There are exploiters in every game though so your point doesn't really stand though. This also isn't an exploit as it has been part of IC since launch, as much as you keep trying to paint it as such. If it was it would be fixed or there would have been an instakill like every other spawn not meant to be accessed. If you choose to LA spam down and someone Dragon Leaps up, not sure what to tell you, that's part of the game and you just gave that player access to the base. It's called taking responsibility.
I'm sorry but you dont just get to label everyone as an exploiter to fit your narrative. If it was an exploit it would have been changed, it isnt, end of story.
Lol I was on White Gold the other night helping people kill 2 griefing NBs that kept dual spamming meteors once you left base spawn. 4 or 5 deaths later and I find them in a different room stealthing (did you know you can find NBs in stealth without detection? Stealth up and use the eye you get. It won't knock them out of stealth but it will be completely open when you're right next to them. You can then spam an aoe and knock them out of stealth) and we fight and I killed them.
PVP is about learning from your mistakes, adapting, and surviving. There is no incentive beyond personal incentive. If you die and it turns you off from a zone completely I get it but you dont go suddenly change that entire zone around for 1% of the population that vocally hate it already.
You don't seem to understand a very important thing: it's not dying that turns off people from PvP. That's acceptable. But if you are slaughtered repeatedly without any chance to fight or even to land a hit against your opponent... that can remove people forever from PvP. You can't learn anything about PvP if you are waiting in a loading screen and then return to be a ghost. More precisely you will learn one thing: "it's pointless time-wasting, I'm better to do anything else".
You don't seem to pvp so let me explain it as someone that originally had to ask how to leave Cyro and has worked their way up.
I started playing in Cyro to get skyshards and I ran around with loads of treasure maps to farm up the EP style, I fell in love with how open it was and I really enjoyed the quests and the feels of the towns. I play a tank and pve so I'd roll heavy armor and wonder why I couldnt kill anything but still, it kept me alive. I joined pugs and eventually learned how to siege and when you're part of a pug you're eventually going to ball into another pug. You die a lot during this and I mean a lot. Sure it's discouraging but as you play you le as rn when to block, you recognize aoes and what you're standing in, you learn to buff up more often and pack a self he or 2. All stuff you can get away with in pve in most content but not in Cyrodiil. It is. O different from what players have to do in pve, gear, mechanics, etc. the learning curve is much steeper because there are human opponents not computer code designed with attack phases.
I get the loadscreens suck. I started learning Cyrodiil when infinite loadscreens were still a thing and you'd have to restart the game to get back in to find out you died to respawn and get another infinite screen. You need to realize these arent specific to you or anyone else it happens to everyone. The people farming you now were at one point rank 1. My main is a mDK in light armor and I have no problems taking on a 1v4 or 5 any more. Pvp is much harder to learn but if you stick with it you'll realize all of these problems are mental and easily conquered.
You are right, I'm not an active PvP player. But it's not because of Cyrodiil, or IC, or loading screens, or crashes. It's because I have 15 years of MMORPG experience, I've played more than a dozen of them and I have tried PvP in every single one of them - and I didn't find it enjoyable in any of them. There was only one game which was great for me, Atlas Reactor, and it doesn't exist any more.
Trust me, I know where to look for tips, I know about not standing in red and bring a few self-heal, I know when to run, when to strike back and how to find a fight - if I wanted to do that. I'm simply not interested in it... but that doesn't mean I don't have any clue why PvP get so little love from an average player.
Edit: typos...
Heres the thing, the average player seems to vary widely from person to person. I've seen some people say the average person won't have access to pvp gear and skills and others say that the average player can't make it out of the sewers base. Either way I've pvped in multiple mmos Nd this is the best pvp so far
Both are valid reasons for anybody to skip PvP - and since most of the players are skipping, we can say both are true for an average player.
They arent valid reasons to skip anything. It is as easy to gear in pvp as it is in pve. The average player also has a lot of pve, some could argue too much. Maybe if that was cut down in order to further put resources into server performance (pvp is more server dependent then pve) we'd see pvp not ignored.
Too much PvE? Are you serious? If you cut back PvE and throw those resources into PvP, you'd have a dead game. Players would quit in droves and ZOS' revenues would tank.
I don't think you realize how many people enjoy pvp and would play more if we have better servers. The only thing killing pvp is ZoS, not pvp or the pvp community.2 -
zyk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »I don't think you realize how many people enjoy pvp and would play more if we have better servers. The only thing killing pvp is ZoS, not pvp or the pvp community.
I think a lot of ESO players -- and Zenimax execs -- are in a bit of a bubble and don't realize how big PVP is in PC gaming as a whole. CS alone has probably been more popular than ESO for 20 years with fundamentally unchanged gameplay. CSGO is still peaking at 700k players on at once. I think Fortnite sees something like 10M+ concurrent players.
If ESO AvA worked properly, had some basic cheat mitigations, and was separated from the PVE grind, I have no doubt it could find its niche as a very popular PVP game.
Zenimax really dropped the ball here.Edited by zyk on September 16, 2019 2:49AM2 -
max_only✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Add REAL END GAME trials with bis gear not in pve locations, but in cyro.
Block enter to it with few restrictions:
1. Your alliance may have emp right now, or you can't enter.
2. Your character may have 50k+ ap farmed this day to enter.
Mmorpg is about playing with people, not quests or lore, and this will make people play together and coop.
MMOs are about allowing people to play together but not forcing them. People will hate your suggestion.
i said mmorpg, not mmos. its diff genres
but eso more like mmos for sure.
What do you think the rpg stands for? Real player ganking?
Rpg is about quests and lore. Who ever told you rpg isn’t about quest and lore was wrong.
Mmo is about playing with people
Rpg is about quests and lore
An MMORPG is both.#FiteForYourRite Bosmer = Stealth
#OppositeResourceSiphoningAttacks
|| CP 1000+ || PC/NA || GUILDS: LWH; IA; CH; XA
""All gods' creatures (you lot) are equal when covered in A1 sauce"" -- Old Bosmeri Wisdom7 -
Ydrisselle✭✭✭✭✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »I don't think you realize how many people enjoy pvp and would play more if we have better servers. The only thing killing pvp is ZoS, not pvp or the pvp community.
I think a lot of ESO players -- and Zenimax execs -- are in a bit of a bubble and don't realize how big PVP is in PC gaming as a whole. CS alone has probably been more popular than ESO for 20 years with fundamentally the same gameplay. CSGO is still peaking at 700k players on at once. I think Fortnite sees something like 10M+ concurrent players.
If ESO AvA worked properly, had some basic cheat mitigations, and was separated from the PVE grind, I have no doubt it could find its niche as a very popular PVP game.
Zenimax really dropped the ball here.
Although it's true, it was never very viable to build an MMO on PvP. There were games which tried that and most of them were very niche games; the others were dead as soon as the started.2 -
Mr_Walker✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »
Have you ever been to a social event? You want people to come and the more that do the more successful it is. This isn't rocket science here bud.
This isn't a social event. It's a promotional event. A very important distinction.Rave the Histborn wrote: »LOL oh jesus, we're on page 9 and I elaborated more in depth on other points all of which can be summed up with "there's lots of people in there right now-success". I am such a monster, why would I want to point out additional information that helps my point. That's not how this works at all. Let me try your way.
Duh durrrrrr people that aren't good at a game type they don't wan't to put effort in. Durrrrr it makes them sad and they think the whole world should be changed because no one could be good at it. Duhh did you make more then one point? That's changing your tune durrrrr.
Strawman.Rave the Histborn wrote: »I'm also not sure what you want honestly as you've yet to take a consistent position. Even your initial post you chastise the OP for "Well, opie, you started off by insulting PvE players, so bravo.... a guaranteed way to get people on side."
Then you go and do the same thing to PVP players
"1. The idiots who spawn camp? Ignore them. They're generally the lowest form of PvPers. The type of goose you see gone dark around the back of flagged keeps leeching ticks. They run at the first sign of real resistance. Either that or they're just plain garden variety fools. Either way, they are atypical of PvPers."
I 100 agree with you on this point but again, "you started off by insulting PvP players, so bravo.... a guaranteed way to get people on side. So you're not going to make many friends""
"Most of the big mouth idiots have plenty of time because they're dark at a keep waiting for a tick. The others are proud owners of acquired brain injuries."
"6. If you do enjoy it, and get good at it, be respectful. Everyone was new once. "
You tell people to be respectful after you insult the playerbase. You also seem to forget that everyone was new once and all the PVP players have long dealt with all these "broken" mechanics. In your own words we were new, which means we were also successful in learning how to pvp in Cyro/IC with the current mechanics in place. If the pvp population for the last 5 years has done it, I don't see why people currently now can't. But that's my problem here, your lack of any consistency. You want to say I'm changing my tune "a little" which god if that isn't grabbing at straws I don't know what is but I've been very consistent with the "the servers were full - success" argument because that's what it is, a success. You on the other hand don't have a tune, you say you love Cyro and you hate IC, then you're going to wait to do the quest lines if it gets done, then you've actually got about a hundred hours in IC from when it was part of Cyro and a few hours in the new campaign. You know all about the event and what people are going through with sewer platforms but you're avoiding this event at the same time.
My argument evolved, because that's how arguments work, yours hasn't because you don't have one.
Oh no, my argument is still very much consistent. I've never hidden my contempt for people dark at keeps, spawn campers, or the large number of tools whose endgame seems to be fighting in zone chat.
And I'm still waiting for you to tell me what I want. If you tried to tell me in the above, I'm sorry, but that's a mess.
Edited by Mr_Walker on September 16, 2019 2:16AM3 -
Mr_Walker✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭fgoron2000 wrote: »Not everyone plays games to compete with other players. A lot of people aren’t wired that way. They’re not better or worse players than people who do, just different kind of players. Just accept it. It also doesn’t mean that they’re “scared” of PvP. Some people just don’t like it and prefer to do other aspects of the game with their time, again doesn’t make them any better or worse than people who like PvP.
Me? You’ll never get me to like the PvP in this game unless it changes drastically, which is unreasonable, so I stay out of it unless I need warhorn/Vigor.
I don’t mind PvP in some other games in medium doses but I just hate competing with other players, that’s not why I play video games. I do however like to co op with players, hence why I like dungeons and trials.
Different people like different things.
^^^^This exactly...
I came to this game to play with others in a game world that I love, not to play against others.
You can play both WITH and AGAINST other simultaneously. It's great fun!1 -
ZeroXFF✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Considering that I see it as a win when my opponents run away in frustration, that actually might get me into pvp.0 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »
Have you ever been to a social event? You want people to come and the more that do the more successful it is. This isn't rocket science here bud.
This isn't a social event. It's a promotional event. A very important distinction.Rave the Histborn wrote: »LOL oh jesus, we're on page 9 and I elaborated more in depth on other points all of which can be summed up with "there's lots of people in there right now-success". I am such a monster, why would I want to point out additional information that helps my point. That's not how this works at all. Let me try your way.
Duh durrrrrr people that aren't good at a game type they don't wan't to put effort in. Durrrrr it makes them sad and they think the whole world should be changed because no one could be good at it. Duhh did you make more then one point? That's changing your tune durrrrr.
Strawman.Rave the Histborn wrote: »I'm also not sure what you want honestly as you've yet to take a consistent position. Even your initial post you chastise the OP for "Well, opie, you started off by insulting PvE players, so bravo.... a guaranteed way to get people on side."
Then you go and do the same thing to PVP players
"1. The idiots who spawn camp? Ignore them. They're generally the lowest form of PvPers. The type of goose you see gone dark around the back of flagged keeps leeching ticks. They run at the first sign of real resistance. Either that or they're just plain garden variety fools. Either way, they are atypical of PvPers."
I 100 agree with you on this point but again, "you started off by insulting PvP players, so bravo.... a guaranteed way to get people on side. So you're not going to make many friends""
"Most of the big mouth idiots have plenty of time because they're dark at a keep waiting for a tick. The others are proud owners of acquired brain injuries."
"6. If you do enjoy it, and get good at it, be respectful. Everyone was new once. "
You tell people to be respectful after you insult the playerbase. You also seem to forget that everyone was new once and all the PVP players have long dealt with all these "broken" mechanics. In your own words we were new, which means we were also successful in learning how to pvp in Cyro/IC with the current mechanics in place. If the pvp population for the last 5 years has done it, I don't see why people currently now can't. But that's my problem here, your lack of any consistency. You want to say I'm changing my tune "a little" which god if that isn't grabbing at straws I don't know what is but I've been very consistent with the "the servers were full - success" argument because that's what it is, a success. You on the other hand don't have a tune, you say you love Cyro and you hate IC, then you're going to wait to do the quest lines if it gets done, then you've actually got about a hundred hours in IC from when it was part of Cyro and a few hours in the new campaign. You know all about the event and what people are going through with sewer platforms but you're avoiding this event at the same time.
My argument evolved, because that's how arguments work, yours hasn't because you don't have one.
Oh no, my argument is still very much consistent. I've never hidden my contempt for people dark at keeps, spawn campers, or the large number of tools whose endgame seems to be fighting in zone chat.
And I'm still waiting for you to tell me what I want. If you tried to tell me in the above, I'm sorry, but that's a mess.
Oh my god, a promotional event is a social event lol. Let's change the criteria though, for the event to be successful people have to show up. They did. The event is a success no matter how much you keep seeming to fight it.
Please go look up what a straw man is. I can't intentionally misrepresent you when these are things you have said during this discussion. I might be a *** but those are your words.
Lol Your argument hasn't been consistent. You can't even get the amount of pvp you've actually done correct.
"And I'm still waiting for you to tell me what I want. If you tried to tell me in the above, I'm sorry, but that's a mess."
Gotcha, so you didnt read what I said and you're commenting on it. Weird, it's kinda like how you had a ton of Cyro/IC experience that suddenly turned into you clicked on the map of Cyrodiil once and it made fun of you so you never went back. Well maybe give it a reread since you dont seem to have anything else to do beyond responding on the forums.0 -
Mr_Walker✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »You can't even get the amount of pvp you've actually done correct.
wut?Rave the Histborn wrote: »Weird, it's kinda like how you had a ton of Cyro/IC experience that suddenly turned into you clicked on the map of Cyrodiil once and it made fun of you so you never went back.
Again, wut?
I'm assuming you actually meant to respond to someone else here.Edited by Mr_Walker on September 16, 2019 2:59AM2 -
Kiralyn2000✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think a lot of ESO players -- and Zenimax execs -- are in a bit of a bubble and don't realize how big PVP is in PC gaming as a whole.
No, I think everyone in existence is well aware of how big Fortnite/PUBG/BattleRoyale, Overwatch, and COD (just to name a few) are.
That doesn't mean that we're happy it's that big - personally, the "everything must have MP! Shove in pvp!" push by game devs the past decade, making it harder and harder to find honestly single-player games, is pretty annoying.
(Of course, it's understandable from an economic standpoint - MP/PVP is cheap for publishers to put out, because they don't have to produce as much 'content'. In PvP, the other players are the content - push out a new map every couple months, and your game keeps active on the Steam charts.)
My preference would be for PvP and PvE to be entirely separate games - 1, we wouldn't have all this stupid "PvP vs PvE" forum arguing (plus awful game balance decisions driven by one side that screws over the other); and 2, PvPers would get an actually well balanced & designed PvP experience, instead of the buggy & limited stuff that they keep ending up with in all these "95% PvE MMOs with a bad PvP minigame duct-taped to the side" games.Edited by Kiralyn2000 on September 16, 2019 3:02AM3 -
Rave the Histborn✭✭✭✭✭
✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »You can't even get the amount of pvp you've actually done correct.
wut?
And please don't make up positions for me, then argue against them. That is indeed a strawman.
I am still waiting for you to tell me exactly what you think it is that I want from this event. Do not respond unless you are going to do so.
Lol cherry picks the quote and doesn't answer anything elseRave the Histborn wrote: »You can't even get the amount of pvp you've actually done correct.
wut?Rave the Histborn wrote: »Weird, it's kinda like how you had a ton of Cyro/IC experience that suddenly turned into you clicked on the map of Cyrodiil once and it made fun of you so you never went back.
Again, wut?
And please don't make up positions for me, then argue against them. That is indeed a strawman.
I am still waiting for you to tell me exactly what you think it is that I want from this event. Please do not respond unless you are going to do so.
What positions have I straw manned? You dont have much experience in pvp and you did the event once years ago. These are your own words.
I am still waiting for you to tell me exactly what you think it is that I want from this event. Please do not respond unless you are going to do so.
Also
And I'm still waiting for you to tell me what I want. If you tried to tell me in the above, I'm sorry, but that's a mess.
So you're waiting for a response still but you won't read my response that I've already posted. Gotcha, well maybe that's why you keep thinking you're getting straw manned. You put out glimpses of the truth then once someone points them out you immediately back pedal to character attacks.
I do have a way to incentive players though on how to get PvE players into PvP and you'll enjoy it because it is something you love doing. Character attacks. I say we link them to your forum posts and tell people that with a little effort and practice they'll never have to be you.0 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Why I don't PvP:
1. I need PvP gear
2. I need to respec my CP for PvP
3. It's not balanced3 -
Mr_Walker✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »You can't even get the amount of pvp you've actually done correct.
wut?
And please don't make up positions for me, then argue against them. That is indeed a strawman.
I am still waiting for you to tell me exactly what you think it is that I want from this event. Do not respond unless you are going to do so.
Lol cherry picks the quote and doesn't answer anything elseRave the Histborn wrote: »You can't even get the amount of pvp you've actually done correct.
wut?Rave the Histborn wrote: »Weird, it's kinda like how you had a ton of Cyro/IC experience that suddenly turned into you clicked on the map of Cyrodiil once and it made fun of you so you never went back.
Again, wut?
And please don't make up positions for me, then argue against them. That is indeed a strawman.
I am still waiting for you to tell me exactly what you think it is that I want from this event. Please do not respond unless you are going to do so.
What positions have I straw manned? You dont have much experience in pvp and you did the event once years ago. These are your own words.
I am still waiting for you to tell me exactly what you think it is that I want from this event. Please do not respond unless you are going to do so.
Also
And I'm still waiting for you to tell me what I want. If you tried to tell me in the above, I'm sorry, but that's a mess.
So you're waiting for a response still but you won't read my response that I've already posted. Gotcha, well maybe that's why you keep thinking you're getting straw manned. You put out glimpses of the truth then once someone points them out you immediately back pedal to character attacks.
I do have a way to incentive players though on how to get PvE players into PvP and you'll enjoy it because it is something you love doing. Character attacks. I say we link them to your forum posts and tell people that with a little effort and practice they'll never have to be you.
Take a breath dude. Not sure why you think I don't have much PvP experience. I'm not the most experienced player on the planet, but I play solidly every weekend, and most Friday nights. Are you confusing me with someone else?
I assume you think I am hoping for this event to be a failure? Even the most cursory examination of my posts on the matter show the exact opposite of that. I think that's what you're aiming for anyway, you writing style is a little scattergun.
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jainiadral✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Rave the Histborn wrote: »jainiadral wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »Ydrisselle wrote: »Rave the Histborn wrote: »
I'm avoiding the event because I don't care about the rewards and it's a complete waste of my time.Rave the Histborn wrote: »You on the other hand don't have a tune, you say you love Cyro and you hate IC, then you're going to wait to do the quest lines if it gets done, then you've actually got about a hundred hours in IC from when it was part of Cyro and a few hours in the new campaign. You know all about the event and what people are going through with sewer platforms but you're avoiding this event at the same time.
True, I've only visited IC quite sporadically during this event (as I outlined earlier) - but loadscreen camping of players is nothing new, and the exact same thing was happening during the 5th anniversary event, which I did participate in during the PvP week.
We're getting increasingly off track here, so let's bring things back in line:
The OP's point was how PvP can be made more friendly to newcomers.
My point is that when a new player goes through the sewer door and loads in dead on the opposite side, that sends a very specific kind of message.
The exact kind of message that you do NOT want to be sending to new PvPers, if you want to encourage them to stay and enjoy actual PvP.
Your point that there are alternate paths through the districts is technically valid, but not relevant to the discussion.
The fact remains, that there are exploiters who are engaging in a form of behavior which is extremely destructive to ESO's PvP community in the long term.
And the fact that you are effectively defending the exploiters by trying to handwave the problem away and claiming that "hurr durr it's legit PvP", makes me begin to wonder if you are not actually one of those players.
Heres the thing. If your hypothetical person loads into pvp and dies that is part of the game. It is very very rare for this to happen on a loadscreen outside of this event and if this is something preventing people from joing pvp well they never wanted to pvp in the first place. Death is part of pvp and if dying is going to put you off you shouldn't even bother joining.
It is very much the message you want to be sending people though. You are in a warzone and war is cruel and you are going to die. You need to to think for yourself and be prepared. This isn't pve, the path isnt provided for you, you're going to need to do it on your own. If you're getting ganked going through doors buff up before so if you get attacked you have a chance to fight back.
My point isn't technically valid it is 100% valid and relevant. None of these players need to go through the sewer entrance and if you keep going out and getting farmed it is your fault. There's 8 ways out of the sewers. If you can't figure out how to not get farmed by using a different door then I'm not sure how to help.
There are exploiters in every game though so your point doesn't really stand though. This also isn't an exploit as it has been part of IC since launch, as much as you keep trying to paint it as such. If it was it would be fixed or there would have been an instakill like every other spawn not meant to be accessed. If you choose to LA spam down and someone Dragon Leaps up, not sure what to tell you, that's part of the game and you just gave that player access to the base. It's called taking responsibility.
I'm sorry but you dont just get to label everyone as an exploiter to fit your narrative. If it was an exploit it would have been changed, it isnt, end of story.
Lol I was on White Gold the other night helping people kill 2 griefing NBs that kept dual spamming meteors once you left base spawn. 4 or 5 deaths later and I find them in a different room stealthing (did you know you can find NBs in stealth without detection? Stealth up and use the eye you get. It won't knock them out of stealth but it will be completely open when you're right next to them. You can then spam an aoe and knock them out of stealth) and we fight and I killed them.
PVP is about learning from your mistakes, adapting, and surviving. There is no incentive beyond personal incentive. If you die and it turns you off from a zone completely I get it but you dont go suddenly change that entire zone around for 1% of the population that vocally hate it already.
You don't seem to understand a very important thing: it's not dying that turns off people from PvP. That's acceptable. But if you are slaughtered repeatedly without any chance to fight or even to land a hit against your opponent... that can remove people forever from PvP. You can't learn anything about PvP if you are waiting in a loading screen and then return to be a ghost. More precisely you will learn one thing: "it's pointless time-wasting, I'm better to do anything else".
You don't seem to pvp so let me explain it as someone that originally had to ask how to leave Cyro and has worked their way up.
I started playing in Cyro to get skyshards and I ran around with loads of treasure maps to farm up the EP style, I fell in love with how open it was and I really enjoyed the quests and the feels of the towns. I play a tank and pve so I'd roll heavy armor and wonder why I couldnt kill anything but still, it kept me alive. I joined pugs and eventually learned how to siege and when you're part of a pug you're eventually going to ball into another pug. You die a lot during this and I mean a lot. Sure it's discouraging but as you play you le as rn when to block, you recognize aoes and what you're standing in, you learn to buff up more often and pack a self he or 2. All stuff you can get away with in pve in most content but not in Cyrodiil. It is. O different from what players have to do in pve, gear, mechanics, etc. the learning curve is much steeper because there are human opponents not computer code designed with attack phases.
I get the loadscreens suck. I started learning Cyrodiil when infinite loadscreens were still a thing and you'd have to restart the game to get back in to find out you died to respawn and get another infinite screen. You need to realize these arent specific to you or anyone else it happens to everyone. The people farming you now were at one point rank 1. My main is a mDK in light armor and I have no problems taking on a 1v4 or 5 any more. Pvp is much harder to learn but if you stick with it you'll realize all of these problems are mental and easily conquered.
You are right, I'm not an active PvP player. But it's not because of Cyrodiil, or IC, or loading screens, or crashes. It's because I have 15 years of MMORPG experience, I've played more than a dozen of them and I have tried PvP in every single one of them - and I didn't find it enjoyable in any of them. There was only one game which was great for me, Atlas Reactor, and it doesn't exist any more.
Trust me, I know where to look for tips, I know about not standing in red and bring a few self-heal, I know when to run, when to strike back and how to find a fight - if I wanted to do that. I'm simply not interested in it... but that doesn't mean I don't have any clue why PvP get so little love from an average player.
Edit: typos...
Heres the thing, the average player seems to vary widely from person to person. I've seen some people say the average person won't have access to pvp gear and skills and others say that the average player can't make it out of the sewers base. Either way I've pvped in multiple mmos Nd this is the best pvp so far
Both are valid reasons for anybody to skip PvP - and since most of the players are skipping, we can say both are true for an average player.
They arent valid reasons to skip anything. It is as easy to gear in pvp as it is in pve. The average player also has a lot of pve, some could argue too much. Maybe if that was cut down in order to further put resources into server performance (pvp is more server dependent then pve) we'd see pvp not ignored.
Too much PvE? Are you serious? If you cut back PvE and throw those resources into PvP, you'd have a dead game. Players would quit in droves and ZOS' revenues would tank.
I don't think you realize how many people enjoy pvp and would play more if we have better servers. The only thing killing pvp is ZoS, not pvp or the pvp community.
That has zero to do with scaling back on PvE. If you want additional resources for PvP or for ZOS to work more on PvP performance then you have my vote. I've watched some of the vids on the forums. That kind of performance is unacceptable. But cutting back on PvE is going to endanger the game and alienate the majority of the player base.3 -
Bryath✭✭✭I am, frankly, just not fast enough to keep up with 4+ enemy players jumping and strafing around, each casting a different skill every second. It's just not going to be fun when you suck compared to a lot of pvp players, no matter how the pvp is implemented. And thats ok, I've been just fine ignoring the IC event.
I imagine a lot of players are in the same boat as me, especially amongst the 40+ crowd.3 -
mague✭✭✭✭✭InvictusApollo wrote: »Every time there is a PvP event that is supposed to attract PvErs to PvP, we get an outcry from PvErs that they don't like being killed in PvP. Some person even got "traumatized"...
But I'm not here to tell people how to man up.
I've created this thread so that people - all people: both PvPers and PvErs could post their ideas on how to make PvP more inviting and friendly for PvErs. I'll post my idea in a seperate thread.
There is nothing you could do
It is just not working.
There is no single PvP mindset. There are many shades of PvP and the bad part of the PvP population is really a pita. I did like 4 months Cyrodiil. And while it can be fun it is more then often not. I am happy i am out of it.0 -
ChefZero✭✭✭✭Changing the PvP content itself won't change their mind. IMO biggest issues are lag as stated and guild's.
Actually there are only mechanics implemented that supports trading and PvE progression guild's. No point for waisting a slot for a true PvP guild. Playing with friends is the best motivation to get PvEers and newbies into PvP and an active guild, recruiting members, with experienced mentors can open the door to PvP. Long story short ZOS has to implement something so that people get an incentive to be in a PvP guild.PC EU - DC only0 -
perolord✭✭✭Well the thing is, ppl that cry are often not interested in reading any of the pvp guides, that they get some feeling how this works.
Anyhow, i used to hate it too (only because you can not have 1 char that can do pvp and pve good ). I like to play 1 char, but i found a way, have 2 chars and 1 for pvp and other for pve (gear is account sharable, so i find it ok).
And after some guides and some play and now some gear i really enjoy PVP.
And all i can say is, there is a way, GUIDES - PLAY A LOT - GEAR... and you start to enjoy it...
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