How to make PvP more friendly and inviting to PvErs?

TheRealPotoroo · September 2019

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

TheRealPotoroo wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

MojaveHeld wrote: »

I'm both a PvPer and PvEr. I get where both sides are coming from. That being said, with IC, the solution to getting more people in there is something that many other PvPers won't like. Get rid of Tel Var loss on getting killed by other players. The overwhelming amount of Tel Var created in the zone is from PvE objectives. But the overwhelming loss of it is from getting ganked when you're already low health, or getting steamrolled by a large group of players. The gankers and bombers who can take large amounts of tel var from players at no risk to themselves, slink off and bank it all, and then rinse and repeat, are why the zone is practically dead. The PvE play is doing all the work, and the PvP playing is usually stealing a significant amount of the rewards, at little to no risk to themselves. It's just poor zone design.

If you still keep the tel var loss from getting killed by bosses, mobs, etc., the zone still has it's risk:reward balance for most players, but as long as the zone heavily rewards trolling and griefing, the majority of people will stay out. The balance is currently tipped in the favor of a playstyle that most players find toxic, so until that is changed, there's not much PvPers can do to make the zone more welcoming. Advocating for changes to eliminate that sort of behavior is really all they can do, and many of the people that frequent the zone already are guilty of that exact behavior, so they're unlikely to support making changes.

If you get rid of tel var you lose all purpose for the heart of IC, killing the zone. Just because some people find the zone to be toxic doesn't mean it is, especially when these people seem to have the least experience in the zone. You're not going to change the toxic part of the experience which is the ganking. People are still going to gank other people and you're still going to see the same people complaining they got killed in the sewers on the way to the boss. They just won't have the TV excuse to crutch them.

IC has basically been dead for a long, long time and the reasons why have been discussed ad nauseum. Getting ganked is one of the reasons for not going back that recurs over and over among PVE players. It's obnoxious not just to a few people, ESO's player base is overwhelmingly PVE oriented and when they keep telling you over and over why they won't go back to a zone you don't get to pretend they never said anything, especially in a thread like this which is ostensibly about ways to make PVP more attractive to these players. It's not just ganking, PVE players playing PVP is a whole different mindset and mode of play that is totally not supported by an arrogant developer who refuses to make switching between modes simple and easy. But at the end of the day, I bet if you were to go back over every thread on this issue and itemise the reasons why PVE players don't want to have a bar of PVP, getting slaughtered by invisible enemies they can do nothing about* will rank top of the list.

* Before anyone mentions that there are some anti-ganking methods available, most PVE players won't have access to them or even know about them because of ZOS's aforesaid refusal to facilitate mode switching.

IC was dead because it w as s the first DLC and that makes it about 5years old not because of ganking. It was very lively when first released but with 4 dlcs a year that obviously won't always be the way.

Getting ganked is one of the fundamentals of pvp of pvp, it happens to everyone. I'm not sure why this is such a deterrent, you die in pve, why can't you die in pvp? It doesn't matter if the ESO player base is mostly pve PVP is there and it has rules. You do get to tell players no when their main complaint is one of the cornerstones of the game type and how it is played. You can't take ganking out of pvp just like you can't take out bosses from pve. Acting like this is a valid claim is also absurd.

You did hit the nail on the head though, PVP is a different playstyle and mindset and it is meant to cater to the better players. That's why you constantly hear "git gud", that's what every capable pvper has had to do. You need to regear, adapt your playstyle, and be ready for anything. If you're not willing to meet those requirements then you're going to have a bad time. The same goes for pve, you have to do the same things..

Enjoy what's left of your dying mode while it lasts. The occasional event notwithstanding, you'll increasingly be on your own and you'll have no idea why.

Rave the Histborn · September 2019

Mr_Walker wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Mr_Walker wrote: »

[

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

MojaveHeld wrote: »

I'm both a PvPer and PvEr. I get where both sides are coming from. That being said, with IC, the solution to getting more people in there is something that many other PvPers won't like. Get rid of Tel Var loss on getting killed by other players. The overwhelming amount of Tel Var created in the zone is from PvE objectives. But the overwhelming loss of it is from getting ganked when you're already low health, or getting steamrolled by a large group of players. The gankers and bombers who can take large amounts of tel var from players at no risk to themselves, slink off and bank it all, and then rinse and repeat, are why the zone is practically dead. The PvE play is doing all the work, and the PvP playing is usually stealing a significant amount of the rewards, at little to no risk to themselves. It's just poor zone design.

If you still keep the tel var loss from getting killed by bosses, mobs, etc., the zone still has it's risk:reward balance for most players, but as long as the zone heavily rewards trolling and griefing, the majority of people will stay out. The balance is currently tipped in the favor of a playstyle that most players find toxic, so until that is changed, there's not much PvPers can do to make the zone more welcoming. Advocating for changes to eliminate that sort of behavior is really all they can do, and many of the people that frequent the zone already are guilty of that exact behavior, so they're unlikely to support making changes.

If you get rid of tel var you lose all purpose for the heart of IC, killing the zone.

And it usually so... lively!

There's usually people and groups in IC still, more than you'd think. Do you think hakeijos just magically show up on guild stores? XD It'll never be as lively as launch but with the free dlc and how many people I see in there hopefully we'll even see a population increase.

Is that where hakeijos come from? Thanks for explaining that to me. I'll file it away in my brain under "things I already knew".

Lol so salty that the event is successful

Major_Lag · September 2019

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Lol so salty that the event is successful

It's "successful" because a lot of clueless PvEers are farming the mobs for telvar, then getting ganked/zerged down by PvPers.
Yeah, that's very successful indeed. /s

winged_tortoise · September 2019

I mostly PvE and dabble in PvE. If you want PvE folk to PvP it’s best to do what this game already does: give ‘em both simple and larger reasons to PvP.

On the simple end we have both content you can only see and gear you can only acquire through exposure to PvP. That’s a powerful reason and right there that’s enough to get most people to come out to play, even though many of us die usually die after seconds of combat.

On the larger end we have the powerful motivations of goals bigger than me and my simple needs, that’s what makes Cyrodiil so attractive, the motivation of serving your faction as it works toward a victory. Second, like climbing without a rope PvP is the ultimate challenge and expression of gaming skill, at some level everyone wants to PvP because everyone wants to be the best.

If you truly want to attract people to PvP the best thing you can do is enjoy it and get really good at it. Couple that with the powerful motivations that are already in play will eventually attract most everyone.

As for griefers, gankers and other a-holes, perhaps Nega Coach was right:

“Perhaps no group needs <PvP> more than <Weak, Traumatized PvEers>. Years of dumbed-down schooling, oversupportive parents, and "My child was student of the month at Pussyfelt Middle School" bumper stickers have destroyed any sense of reality a young <gamer> might have. <your griefing and ganking will set these little maggots straight in a hurry.>

http://davefoley.com/bikeracing/negacoach/

FierceSam · September 2019

1 just don’t mix PvE into PvE areas - it’s a *** idea that has been shown not to work over and over. That way PvP players are ones who WANT to play PvP

2 make it easy and free to change attributes, skills and clothing so it’s possible to switch between a PvE and PvP build on the same character - and provide more storage space so players can have separate sets for both

3 provide some kind of instruction to help players understand and manage the switch to PvP - the learning curve is harsh and almost no one benefits from a learn by bullying approach

4 give newer PvP players a massive set of buffs to make them almost invincible - that way they’re not being one shot by wankers all the time and are actually challenging to kill

5 actively ban players who are bullying or abusive in game, demote their characters and remove achievements

6 help them in PvP, everyone was bad at it to start, only the best made the transition with their attitude intact

Mr_Walker · September 2019

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Mr_Walker wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Mr_Walker wrote: »

[

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

MojaveHeld wrote: »

I'm both a PvPer and PvEr. I get where both sides are coming from. That being said, with IC, the solution to getting more people in there is something that many other PvPers won't like. Get rid of Tel Var loss on getting killed by other players. The overwhelming amount of Tel Var created in the zone is from PvE objectives. But the overwhelming loss of it is from getting ganked when you're already low health, or getting steamrolled by a large group of players. The gankers and bombers who can take large amounts of tel var from players at no risk to themselves, slink off and bank it all, and then rinse and repeat, are why the zone is practically dead. The PvE play is doing all the work, and the PvP playing is usually stealing a significant amount of the rewards, at little to no risk to themselves. It's just poor zone design.

If you still keep the tel var loss from getting killed by bosses, mobs, etc., the zone still has it's risk:reward balance for most players, but as long as the zone heavily rewards trolling and griefing, the majority of people will stay out. The balance is currently tipped in the favor of a playstyle that most players find toxic, so until that is changed, there's not much PvPers can do to make the zone more welcoming. Advocating for changes to eliminate that sort of behavior is really all they can do, and many of the people that frequent the zone already are guilty of that exact behavior, so they're unlikely to support making changes.

If you get rid of tel var you lose all purpose for the heart of IC, killing the zone.

And it usually so... lively!

There's usually people and groups in IC still, more than you'd think. Do you think hakeijos just magically show up on guild stores? XD It'll never be as lively as launch but with the free dlc and how many people I see in there hopefully we'll even see a population increase.

Is that where hakeijos come from? Thanks for explaining that to me. I'll file it away in my brain under "things I already knew".

Lol so salty that the event is successful

Is it? What do you think the objective of the event is?

Vicarra · September 2019

I don't give a monkey's about making PVP more attractive to PVEers - the very premise frames the issue wrongly. "PVEer" says to me someone who is anti-PVP. Most PVEers have already bought into the negative stereotypes of what PVP is in this game, and don't care to be open minded enough to do at least do the basic preparations before they go into it. They assume that all PVPers are toxic, even though the PVE community is 100 times worse. I've never been kicked from a PVP group before, and I've been playing this game since launch, but you can bet your ass I've been kicked from PVE groups. Added to that, most of the content in the game is geared towards PVEers. They have enough.

I've also never, EVER had anyone hate-whisper me in PVP. The people I know who do get hate-whispers are tea-baggers and trolls, or lost their temper and whispered someone first. So if you're getting hate-whispered from "toxic" PVP players, that tells me you're a butthurt whiner who whispered someone who killed you FIRST to complain at them, or to accuse them of cheating or hacking. I've had conversations with people on the enemy factions, and when you're cool with people, they're cool with you.

If you join one of my lfg groups in PVP, and you ask for help, I'll give it. If you need an escort, I'll come back for you so you're not running alone. I'll hang at the back and give rapids to the people without maxed mounts. I'll give advice, I'll talk through how to do stuff, what sieges to use in which situation, how to defend or attack. I've never been in any group where I've seen someone honestly asking questions getting mobbed by people telling them to "git gud". That goes on in zone chat, but in a group or PVP guild, people WANT to help each other be better, because that means that the people you're running with are better at having your back. It's really not hard to understand, but people get stuck on the "PVP players are so toxic" record, on repeat. Really, what that tells me is that they are toxic themselves, and have a bad attitude. If you have a bad attitude and behave like an entitled ***, people will give you nothing but grief, both in game and IRL.

What we should be asking is how to make PVP more attractive to PVPers. I personally hate IC because of the overbearing PVE aspect. If they removed all the quests and mobs from IC and the sewers and just let it be like a giant battleground free-for-all map with no zoning doors, I'd like it a lot more. Add more PVP objectives. In Cyro, remove all the PVE nonsense, resource nodes and random mobs. There's no need for them. Give everyone max mount speed while in Cyro. Let PVP be PVP. Stop trying to sneak PVE into PVP maps. Removing all that unnecessary stuff will also help with loading screens. The endless lag, load screens and other stuff that makes PVP a pain in the hole is what drives PVPers away from PVP. People who primarily PVE can willingly join in with PVP without calling for this or that to be nerfed or for PVE-only versions of the maps to be made, and enjoy PVP for what it is - they are not PVEers. PVEers will never enjoy PVP, no matter what. The only thing that would satisfy PVEers is to remove all PVP from the game completely.

Ydrisselle · September 2019

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

MojaveHeld wrote: »

I'm both a PvPer and PvEr. I get where both sides are coming from. That being said, with IC, the solution to getting more people in there is something that many other PvPers won't like. Get rid of Tel Var loss on getting killed by other players. The overwhelming amount of Tel Var created in the zone is from PvE objectives. But the overwhelming loss of it is from getting ganked when you're already low health, or getting steamrolled by a large group of players. The gankers and bombers who can take large amounts of tel var from players at no risk to themselves, slink off and bank it all, and then rinse and repeat, are why the zone is practically dead. The PvE play is doing all the work, and the PvP playing is usually stealing a significant amount of the rewards, at little to no risk to themselves. It's just poor zone design.

If you still keep the tel var loss from getting killed by bosses, mobs, etc., the zone still has it's risk:reward balance for most players, but as long as the zone heavily rewards trolling and griefing, the majority of people will stay out. The balance is currently tipped in the favor of a playstyle that most players find toxic, so until that is changed, there's not much PvPers can do to make the zone more welcoming. Advocating for changes to eliminate that sort of behavior is really all they can do, and many of the people that frequent the zone already are guilty of that exact behavior, so they're unlikely to support making changes.

If you get rid of tel var you lose all purpose for the heart of IC, killing the zone. Just because some people find the zone to be toxic doesn't mean it is, especially when these people seem to have the least experience in the zone. You're not going to change the toxic part of the experience which is the ganking. People are still going to gank other people and you're still going to see the same people complaining they got killed in the sewers on the way to the boss. They just won't have the TV excuse to crutch them.

If the only reason of IC for existing is Tel Var, then ZOS should kill it anyway. According to your logic if somebody isn't interested in Tel Var at all, shouldn't go there.

Bobby_V_Rockit · September 2019

I’m a PvE guy, run same setup in and out of BG and Cyro. I just want my gems. Now, if ganking and camping werent such a popular thing I’d change my setup, but I know I aint getting no tel var and I know i’m gonna die. So why bother?

It seems more like like player vs. is this door being camped

AcadianPaladin · September 2019

I don't accept the premise of making PvP more friendly to PvEers. I'm a PvE player and don't care for PvP. Why would PvP players want those who don't care for the basic premise of PvP playing in a PvP zone?

PvP and PvE ESO are two completely different games. Taunt, CC, heavy armor, gear enchants, mobility/tactics. . . the list goes on and on. The only thing the two games have in common is the misguided concept that PvP and PvE must be balanced together using the same skills. The result is unhappy PvP and PvE players alike and, sadly, a rather robust degree of animosity between the two communities.

As far as complaints from PvEers about PvP events, I think such complaints are rather selfish and dumb. There are so darn many events that who cares if a few of them are not your cup of tea? For players who feel they have to optimize every single event, then make the choices and use the ingenuity/initiative required to do so. With so many events to choose from and event tickets so easy to acquire, I'm perfectly happy sitting a few of them out.

ZarkingFrued · September 2019

This thread is hilarious

Rohamad_Ali · September 2019

The term "man up" should be removed from video games . Is that what we are doing in Cyrodiil ? Behind our monitors ? Manning up ? .. Doubtful .

Rave the Histborn · September 2019

Major_Lag wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Lol so salty that the event is successful

It's "successful" because a lot of clueless PvEers are farming the mobs for telvar, then getting ganked/zerged down by PvPers.
Yeah, that's very successful indeed. /s

So the event has people from zones that never go there and is super lively with the 2 of the servers being pop locked and the other 2 being high population. Yes, I'd call that successful, sorry it makes you feel bad though.

God imagine having so much time in your day that you can get mad about traveling to a pvp zone then complaining when you get caught in pvp.

Rake · September 2019

I have a solution

buff afk damage, like aoe and single target dots
nerf players that would farm them, by crippling their healing (kill aoe vigor)
do these changes at least a mont in advance before such events, so players that would farm PvE folk would quit game or move to other more competitive PvP releases

The_Lex · September 2019

A lot of forum PvP going on here.

Rohamad_Ali · September 2019

Now that I've thought about the question even more , why would we want to attract PvE players in IC or Cyrodiil ? They will just go off and look for missions and PvE quests that naturally attract them instead of rushing to the pvp fights . That in itself frustrates pvp players . So this one will say Nay to this attraction . We wish to attract more pvp players for sound reasons .

Rave the Histborn · September 2019

FierceSam wrote: »

1 just don’t mix PvE into PvE areas - it’s a *** idea that has been shown not to work over and over. That way PvP players are ones who WANT to play PvP

2 make it easy and free to change attributes, skills and clothing so it’s possible to switch between a PvE and PvP build on the same character - and provide more storage space so players can have separate sets for both

3 provide some kind of instruction to help players understand and manage the switch to PvP - the learning curve is harsh and almost no one benefits from a learn by bullying approach

4 give newer PvP players a massive set of buffs to make them almost invincible - that way they’re not being one shot by wankers all the time and are actually challenging to kill

5 actively ban players who are bullying or abusive in game, demote their characters and remove achievements

6 help them in PvP, everyone was bad at it to start, only the best made the transition with their attitude intact

1. WoW has entire servers dedicated to PVPE, it's a great idea that can and has been completely successful.
2. Or build a 2nd toon. You'll have all the space you need (double what you can have). If not, pvping on one toon is easy and accessible. People killing you isnt bullying, you signed up to get killed. Stop getting killed so easily.
3. They already do this. You can't teach how to not die to other players. The learning curve is there because it has to exist. You can't change human nature.
4. This is an amazing idea that should also be in pve. There should be a buff that makes you basically invincible that let's you one shot dungeon, trial, and overland bosses - that way they're not being one shot by stupid *** mechanics and I dont lose a lot of gold. As a pvp player i dont make tons of gold so pve shouldn't have all this benefit when i dont have the gold to repair.
5. I agree again, ban all griefers in pve and pvp. If someone bullies you over your dps, if they speed run a dungeon, if you kick a low cp player, if you harass anyone in zone chat they should be banned. They should also lose all gear, gold, and levels that way they can't be abusive in dungeons ever.
6. Give everything 1hp. Everyone was bad at the game to start, and no one has time to get better and improve. Only the best make the transition with their attitude (which is elitist and should be banned) and they shouldn't be rewarded for putting in that time and effort.

AhPook_Is_Here · September 2019

Full gear drop would be cool, like in ARK, but maybe let the dead player keep a few items, though everything is dropped anyway, a few items are duplicated so the player doesn't have to go completely unarmed. Full gold and crown drop is obviously part of the solution. I feel like the main reason PVE'ers don't want to try PVP is there is no interesting risk reward scenario. we play this game because we are gamblers, and without anything on the table, what's the point, you might as well be working at McDonald's! The game just feels so safe and boring when it comes to PVP, some measure of time must be gambled in player created content.

Shantu · September 2019

There's something repulsive about watching, or being the object of, a dozen players mercilessly pursing one lone defenseless player to kill them. PVP has its moments of fun and I have respect for good players (even if they kill me) but for the most part it just feels like a medium for the socially maladjusted who like to kick kittens or steal an old lady's purse. The bad part of PVP just wore me down to the point I think the whole game would be much better off if it was just gone. That would also bring and end the undesirable affects of what trying to balance it brings to the whole game. Every time I see that the lead combat guy wears the title of "Lead PvP Designer", it makes me want to bash my head on the keyboard. Nothing about what PVP brings to the game feels good anymore.

Rave the Histborn · September 2019

Ydrisselle wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

MojaveHeld wrote: »

I'm both a PvPer and PvEr. I get where both sides are coming from. That being said, with IC, the solution to getting more people in there is something that many other PvPers won't like. Get rid of Tel Var loss on getting killed by other players. The overwhelming amount of Tel Var created in the zone is from PvE objectives. But the overwhelming loss of it is from getting ganked when you're already low health, or getting steamrolled by a large group of players. The gankers and bombers who can take large amounts of tel var from players at no risk to themselves, slink off and bank it all, and then rinse and repeat, are why the zone is practically dead. The PvE play is doing all the work, and the PvP playing is usually stealing a significant amount of the rewards, at little to no risk to themselves. It's just poor zone design.

If you still keep the tel var loss from getting killed by bosses, mobs, etc., the zone still has it's risk:reward balance for most players, but as long as the zone heavily rewards trolling and griefing, the majority of people will stay out. The balance is currently tipped in the favor of a playstyle that most players find toxic, so until that is changed, there's not much PvPers can do to make the zone more welcoming. Advocating for changes to eliminate that sort of behavior is really all they can do, and many of the people that frequent the zone already are guilty of that exact behavior, so they're unlikely to support making changes.

If you get rid of tel var you lose all purpose for the heart of IC, killing the zone. Just because some people find the zone to be toxic doesn't mean it is, especially when these people seem to have the least experience in the zone. You're not going to change the toxic part of the experience which is the ganking. People are still going to gank other people and you're still going to see the same people complaining they got killed in the sewers on the way to the boss. They just won't have the TV excuse to crutch them.

If the only reason of IC for existing is Tel Var, then ZOS should kill it anyway. According to your logic if somebody isn't interested in Tel Var at all, shouldn't go there.

That's the biggest selling point to come into the zone for people, it isnt the only reason IC exists. Lol all the effort in the world to change/shutdown IC, 0 effort to learn pvp mechanics.

I wonder why zos isnt speeding along right now getting all those IC fixes......oh wait what's what? You've only played the zone for 10min and suddenly you're a scholar on it? Sorry friend, I dont think that's how it works.

Major_Lag · September 2019

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Yes, I'd call that successful

Haha, yeah, right.
A lot of those new-to-IC players have no PvP skills, no PvP gear, and 0 desire to PvP - they are just there for their event tickets.

And considering what's been happening in there, I bet that >90% of those players will never return to IC until the next event happens.

And shortly after the event, IC will go back to being the dead zone it was before.
Very successful indeed...

Ydrisselle · September 2019

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Ydrisselle wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

MojaveHeld wrote: »

I'm both a PvPer and PvEr. I get where both sides are coming from. That being said, with IC, the solution to getting more people in there is something that many other PvPers won't like. Get rid of Tel Var loss on getting killed by other players. The overwhelming amount of Tel Var created in the zone is from PvE objectives. But the overwhelming loss of it is from getting ganked when you're already low health, or getting steamrolled by a large group of players. The gankers and bombers who can take large amounts of tel var from players at no risk to themselves, slink off and bank it all, and then rinse and repeat, are why the zone is practically dead. The PvE play is doing all the work, and the PvP playing is usually stealing a significant amount of the rewards, at little to no risk to themselves. It's just poor zone design.

If you still keep the tel var loss from getting killed by bosses, mobs, etc., the zone still has it's risk:reward balance for most players, but as long as the zone heavily rewards trolling and griefing, the majority of people will stay out. The balance is currently tipped in the favor of a playstyle that most players find toxic, so until that is changed, there's not much PvPers can do to make the zone more welcoming. Advocating for changes to eliminate that sort of behavior is really all they can do, and many of the people that frequent the zone already are guilty of that exact behavior, so they're unlikely to support making changes.

If you get rid of tel var you lose all purpose for the heart of IC, killing the zone. Just because some people find the zone to be toxic doesn't mean it is, especially when these people seem to have the least experience in the zone. You're not going to change the toxic part of the experience which is the ganking. People are still going to gank other people and you're still going to see the same people complaining they got killed in the sewers on the way to the boss. They just won't have the TV excuse to crutch them.

If the only reason of IC for existing is Tel Var, then ZOS should kill it anyway. According to your logic if somebody isn't interested in Tel Var at all, shouldn't go there.

That's the biggest selling point to come into the zone for people, it isnt the only reason IC exists. Lol all the effort in the world to change/shutdown IC, 0 effort to learn pvp mechanics.

I wonder why zos isnt speeding along right now getting all those IC fixes......oh wait what's what? You've only played the zone for 10min and suddenly you're a scholar on it? Sorry friend, I dont think that's how it works.

You said yourself that without Tel Var IC isn't viable. That means to me it's simply not interesting for most of the players - so either ZOS needs to add more incentives to go there and fight, or they should let it die in silence. You are right, I'm not going there, because there isn't any reason for me to step in IC. One day I will do the questchain, but I'm not in a hurry with that.

And to react your other answer... WoW doesn't have any dedicated PvP realm any more. All of them was changed to PvE with Battle for Azeroth - however if you flag yourself for open world PvP, you get an XP buff (and if I remember well, it buffs your loot chances too).

CaffeinatedMayhem · September 2019

Heatnix90 wrote: »

Stuff

Imagine replying to my post forgetting that you’re in a thread about how to incentivize PVEers to pvp.

Maybe get your head out of PvP mode once in a while.

Rave the Histborn · September 2019

Ydrisselle wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Ydrisselle wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

MojaveHeld wrote: »

I'm both a PvPer and PvEr. I get where both sides are coming from. That being said, with IC, the solution to getting more people in there is something that many other PvPers won't like. Get rid of Tel Var loss on getting killed by other players. The overwhelming amount of Tel Var created in the zone is from PvE objectives. But the overwhelming loss of it is from getting ganked when you're already low health, or getting steamrolled by a large group of players. The gankers and bombers who can take large amounts of tel var from players at no risk to themselves, slink off and bank it all, and then rinse and repeat, are why the zone is practically dead. The PvE play is doing all the work, and the PvP playing is usually stealing a significant amount of the rewards, at little to no risk to themselves. It's just poor zone design.

If you still keep the tel var loss from getting killed by bosses, mobs, etc., the zone still has it's risk:reward balance for most players, but as long as the zone heavily rewards trolling and griefing, the majority of people will stay out. The balance is currently tipped in the favor of a playstyle that most players find toxic, so until that is changed, there's not much PvPers can do to make the zone more welcoming. Advocating for changes to eliminate that sort of behavior is really all they can do, and many of the people that frequent the zone already are guilty of that exact behavior, so they're unlikely to support making changes.

If you get rid of tel var you lose all purpose for the heart of IC, killing the zone. Just because some people find the zone to be toxic doesn't mean it is, especially when these people seem to have the least experience in the zone. You're not going to change the toxic part of the experience which is the ganking. People are still going to gank other people and you're still going to see the same people complaining they got killed in the sewers on the way to the boss. They just won't have the TV excuse to crutch them.

If the only reason of IC for existing is Tel Var, then ZOS should kill it anyway. According to your logic if somebody isn't interested in Tel Var at all, shouldn't go there.

That's the biggest selling point to come into the zone for people, it isnt the only reason IC exists. Lol all the effort in the world to change/shutdown IC, 0 effort to learn pvp mechanics.

I wonder why zos isnt speeding along right now getting all those IC fixes......oh wait what's what? You've only played the zone for 10min and suddenly you're a scholar on it? Sorry friend, I dont think that's how it works.

You said yourself that without Tel Var IC isn't viable. That means to me it's simply not interesting for most of the players - so either ZOS needs to add more incentives to go there and fight, or they should let it die in silence. You are right, I'm not going there, because there isn't any reason for me to step in IC. One day I will do the questchain, but I'm not in a hurry with that.

And to react your other answer... WoW doesn't have any dedicated PvP realm any more. All of them was changed to PvE with Battle for Azeroth - however if you flag yourself for open world PvP, you get an XP buff (and if I remember well, it buffs your loot chances too).

The point of IC is to get PVP players that want to PVP other players and this includes ganking as part of the mechanics and game play. For PVE players the main point is the storyline which revolves around a WARZONE where soldiers are fighting for dominance and control over the city. The tel var is an added bonus to buy things like Hakeijos and PVP IC armor sets from vendors which has benefits for both PVE and PVP players. If you remove any part of that, you throw off the balance of the entire zone. No pve means less players coming in to get killed for the pvp population and for pve players that keep screeching about a pve only version would come to find a zone not centered around pve that would take all of 30min to complete and would enrage them more. Taking tel var out further decreases the value of the zone.

You've gotta understand it is very interesting to people, it has great lore, there's lots of completionists out there that want to do everything, and some people have Oblivion nostalgia. You've even shown interest yourself saying you wanna do the quest chain at some point. So let me tell you the biggest turn off that actually exists for IC. Oversensitive people that only complain and talk about the worst aspects of it like you're watching the news. It's all murder doom and gloom and instead of doing anything about it they take to the forums to whine and cry about how the zone doesn't cater to them, their wants, and what they expect. There's tons of posts about sewer gankers at base and bemoaning getting farmed when these players willingly go out and die over and over. Not one thinks to group up, go out together, go up to a district and use the sewer entrance there and go around to fight them from behind. Nope, that's beyond most people, they need the game changed, stuff like that's too hard. PVP and IC is just like any part of PVE that you hope to complete, you get gear, you learn your role, and you put in the time to improve yourself an your skills. For some reason if you kick someone for low cp, you're toxic in a starting zone, your pull low dps it's accepted by the greater player base but man, use a mechanic like cloak as ZOS intended it and suddenly you're Mitler #2, you need to be banned, demoted, lose all your gold and achievements, and the entire core of the game needs to be changed.

Edited for spelling

VaranisArano · September 2019

Major_Lag wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Yes, I'd call that successful

Haha, yeah, right.
A lot of those new-to-IC players have no PvP skills, no PvP gear, and 0 desire to PvP - they are just there for their event tickets.

And considering what's been happening in there, I bet that >90% of those players will never return to IC until the next event happens.

And shortly after the event, IC will go back to being the dead zone it was before.
Very successful indeed...

That's always the case with Events. They draw a lot of people who don't normally do the content to hop in for a short while. Very few stick around after the event for very long, even when they had fun during the event.

I see this most obviously in Midyear Mayhem. PVP guilds get a lot of interest from new players or players they picked up via LFG during the events. Those players usually have a good time, have fun, are interested in PVP...and three months down the line its a very rare few who are still playing PVP outside of events.

That's not necessarily a bad thing. Most players, unless they are exceptionally dedicated to doing dailies, tend to focus on particular parts of the game they enjoy. Being willing to jump in and try content during an event, and even having fun doing it, doesn't often translate to new content becoming something you love to do on a regular basis. I'll be honest here - I have fun in IC during events, but during the rest of the year, I get my PVP fix in Cyrodiil.

So if the measure of success is: Will enough players become regular PVPers enough to populate IC without event rewards?
I think we can all admit that the IC Event would be a failure...if that were the measure of success. By that standard, Midyear Mayhem is a failure too. Oh, and I'm curious...how many people do daily TG Heists outside of the TG/DB event? Etc.

I suggest that a more realistic measure of success is: Did ZOS draw a lot of players to Imperial City and the IC dungeons with this event?

Yeah, they did. Not everyone who enjoyed themself is going to stick around afterwards. Probably, most won't, and at best they'll come back for a little Tel Var farming. That's to be expected, and that's okay. Certainly from ZOS's perspective, more players willing to go to IC for events is better than lots of players who don't know about IC or who never have a reason to go there.

Rave the Histborn · September 2019

thatlaurachick wrote: »

Heatnix90 wrote: »

Stuff

Imagine replying to my post forgetting that you’re in a thread about how to incentivize PVEers to pvp.

Maybe get your head out of PvP mode once in a while.

How do you incentivize people to enter a mode they oppose at its core by asking the people that are good at the current system? You already get AP, rewards of the worthy, much higher yield and greater numbers of Transmute crystals then PVE does. What more are you looking for?

Rave the Histborn · September 2019

Major_Lag wrote: »

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Yes, I'd call that successful

Haha, yeah, right.
A lot of those new-to-IC players have no PvP skills, no PvP gear, and 0 desire to PvP - they are just there for their event tickets.

And considering what's been happening in there, I bet that >90% of those players will never return to IC until the next event happens.

And shortly after the event, IC will go back to being the dead zone it was before.
Very successful indeed...

Well that's odd cuz if they're so PVE oriented they can just do dungeons for Event tickets, they don't have to set foot in IC. It also doesn't matter how much PVP gear, skills, or anything, THEY ARE THERE PLAYING IN IC AND YOU F'ING HATE IT Yes it is a successful event, people have IC for free so they will always be able to go back which means more PVE/PVP access on both sides between the 2 dlc dungeons and a PVPE zone. Are 90% going to leave after? Sure, Ill take an Ic break too, who cares. That doesn't make it any less successful, the measure of success of the event is DURING THE EVENT not after.

Let people have fun, you're just miserable about it for no reason.

Major_Lag · September 2019

VaranisArano wrote: »

Certainly from ZOS's perspective, more players willing to go to IC for events is better than lots of players who don't know about IC or who never have a reason to go there.

The problem is, there is still no reason to go there, outside of events.

At all times when there isn't an IC event active, the IC rewards are crap, and the divide between player skill levels is quite severe: there's some PvE farmers who are just farming telvar... and then there are the hardcore PvPers who are hunting the former. Not much middle ground.

"Dead IC" is a very hostile place for inexperienced PvPers, which just further serves to drive potential players away.
The sociopathic mechanics of telvar gain splitting in groups do not help any, either.

Edit:

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

Let people have fun, you're just miserable about it for no reason.

Lol, what makes you think I care about what happens during the event?

I'm not participating in it in any way (not even PvE dungeons), don't care about some ugly mount that I would never use anyway.

The events are always messy, because the zones end up overcrowded and everything breaks down (relative to how things normally are). That's just how it is.

The salient point here (raised by the OP) is, what could be done to make PvP more fun for a wider audience.
And IC is one place that would particularly benefit from such changes. There's so little reason to go there outside of events - ZOS should change that

Rave the Histborn · September 2019

Major_Lag wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Certainly from ZOS's perspective, more players willing to go to IC for events is better than lots of players who don't know about IC or who never have a reason to go there.

The problem is, there is still no reason to go there, outside of events.

At all times when there isn't an IC event active, the IC rewards are crap, and the divide between player skill levels is quite severe: there's some PvE farmers who are just farming telvar... and then there are the hardcore PvPers who are hunting the former. Not much middle ground.

"Dead IC" is a very hostile place for inexperienced PvPers, which just further serves to drive potential players away.
The sociopathic mechanics of telvar gain splitting in groups do not help any, either.

So there isn't anything to get there because the IC rewards are crap, but the IC event just doubles your chances of crap rewards, so why are people in here?

The skill level is quite high, high enough that there's some PvE farmers who farm tel var. It doesn't matter what your skill is, if you go into pvp, you're going to pvp eventually. This is an excuse so it really doesn't matter.

Every place is hostile for inexperienced PvPers, just like every place is hostile to inexperienced PvEers. You know what gets you experienced? Going into "Dead IC" and learning the mechanics of the zone.

"Socipathic" mechanics LOL all these zergs and groups of casual players trying to work together is geared towards sociopaths now. No, moron, you all fight the boss with the set amount of lot then you all share the loot. It doesn't work any different from any other content in the game. This is how looting in ESO works.

VaranisArano · September 2019

Rave the Histborn wrote: »

thatlaurachick wrote: »

Heatnix90 wrote: »

Stuff

Imagine replying to my post forgetting that you’re in a thread about how to incentivize PVEers to pvp.

Maybe get your head out of PvP mode once in a while.

How do you incentivize people to enter a mode they oppose at its core by asking the people that are good at the current system? You already get AP, rewards of the worthy, much higher yield and greater numbers of Transmute crystals then PVE does. What more are you looking for?

Heh. Immediately followed by a number of PVE threads going: "Why do I have to PVP for those things? Why can't I get what I want from PVE?"

It's an unending cycle. ZOS adds rewards to PVP to encourage players who want the rewards to try it out...some players do PVP for the rewards, others who don't want to touch PVP with a ten foot pole complain about not getting the rewards, and a mostly silent group who won't touch PVP shrugs and accepts that's a reward they'll have to do without.

Same thing goes with all levels of content, of course. Replace PVP with Trials, or TG Heists, and you'd get the same result.

Of all of those, I have great respect for players who are willing to try new content out AND for the players who are willing to accept missing out as the price of avoiding content they know they don't want to play.