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A queue speificly to help newer players with the group finder update?

Heelie
Heelie
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This idea sprung in to my mind after playing retail World of Warcraft, in WoW there is a little checkmark next the dungeon finder where you can express your desire to queue with newer players, this way you willingly accept that the people you are queued up with are are newer / less experienced. This option is great feature and as someone who recently opened a new account the feature is really working, the queue times weren't long and the people I got with where all friendly.

I really think ESO needs a similar feature in the upcoming dungeon finder, my idea for how it would go would be as following:

The group finder matches 2 veteran players, and two newer players. "Now it could also just be one inexperinced if there are not enough queued up."

Both groups play a support and a dps role. This means any group composition can take place. But neither support or dps is completely behind.

People under lvl 50 and up to CP 160 are always using this queue method as "newer" player in both normal and veteran dungeons.

CP 160 - 300 you can choose to option out of this queue method in normal dungeons

CP 300 - 600, you can option out completely.

CP 600+ you can option in as a veteran player helping newer players.

This specific queue will feature no DLC dungeons.

If a queue option like this was introduced it would fix a lot of my gripes with the current dungeon finder. I am mostly playing a tank whenever I do dungeons as I really enjoy the challenges they present. But I rarely ever use the dungeon finder even though I don't mind helping newer players.

My first problem is DLC dungeons. I am not patient enough to do this content with players that have never done it before. While I don't mind spending another 30 minutes in veteran city of ash 2. Often even clearing a single boss with a complete pug group in a DLC dungeon will take hours. While I know some people like the challenge, I feel like most people are in my place.

The second problem with the current system is getting queued up with completely fresh players when trying to do daily pledges . Sometimes you just don't have the time on your hand to deal with a group that will take maybe two hours clearing a single base game dungeon. I have been there and had to just leave the group after first boss.

The last feature I think might help is to prevent kicking people that are not afk/ idle or offline, this is to prevent people exploiting the queue. The group will be registered as a friendly pug group if people from the "newer" group bracket are in the group. We can already not disband dungeon groups this should'nt be an issue

Now here is the thing I am a bit indifferent about

On one hand this feature could function like a completely new queue. so instead of a checkmark we have 2 more options in the dungeon finder, we now have 4 different player pools instead of two. This would increase queue times for everyone no doubt. But this would also encourage people to queue up specifically to avoid DLC dungeons. This feature would make the queue function a lot better even at the cost of queue times going up. You would be able to choose exactly when to queue up with newer players and when not to. This should decrease negative dungeon experiences across the board.

The other option would be a checkmark. This way a veteran player queueing would not be 100% sure if they got in a veteran group or one of the “friendly groups” when they queue for a random dungeon, or a specific base game one for that matter. What happens is instead just a change in the algorithm in which players gets matched. This would probably not increase queue times across the board. However it would take a few more calculations from ZOS server side. This should'nt be a problem according to the “Road Map”. Now I know this is not something the server would be able to handle at this time.

I know that most veteran players out there genuinely wants to help newers players, but right now there is no option to choose time and place. And this discourages a lot of players from ever using the dungeon finder. This would help pair the right players much better.

Let me know your thoughts!
Most OwOrated healer of all time
  • idk
    idk
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    Your suggestion about being able to filter based on CP has been brought up many times and has a big downside due to toxicity of some players toward CP. It is misguided as I can say from my alt account that at CP 160 I have out dpsed an entire group of CP capped players when I was the healer. While that is sad, if you want to avoid this then form your own group.

    If people want to set specific parameters for their group they are welcome to use the oldest group finder pretty much every MMORPG has had to date, forming ones own group. It works well and Zos should not even begin to try to be everything to everyone.

    It is noble to want to help newer players but this nasty downside is one I am pretty certain Zos will want to avoid. I suggest looking at guilds that are on the more social side. I would expect you would be able to find some guilds that cater and find players new to the game.
    Really, idk
  • Heelie
    Heelie
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    idk wrote: »
    Your suggestion about being able to filter based on CP has been brought up many times and has a big downside due to toxicity of some players toward CP. It is misguided as I can say from my alt account that at CP 160 I have out dpsed an entire group of CP capped players when I was the healer. While that is sad, if you want to avoid this then form your own group.

    If people want to set specific parameters for their group they are welcome to use the oldest group finder pretty much every MMORPG has had to date, forming ones own group. It works well and Zos should not even begin to try to be everything to everyone.

    It is noble to want to help newer players but this nasty downside is one I am pretty certain Zos will want to avoid. I suggest looking at guilds that are on the more social side. I would expect you would be able to find some guilds that cater and find players new to the game.

    The idea is to give newer players a better dungeon experience, I don't see what is toxic about that. While true a low CP player can have better dps, most don't, and a person should be able to option out of course.
    Most OwOrated healer of all time
  • LucyferLightbringer
    LucyferLightbringer
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    I met so many really, really bad cp810+ players in pugs thats it is not even funny. CP lvl means absolutely nothing.
    Maybe base it on amount of dungeons ran, or dungeon achievements with certain amount of vet dlc hm achis being cut off point.....
    Edited by LucyferLightbringer on September 11, 2019 1:56AM
  • Heelie
    Heelie
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    I met so many really, really bad cp810+ players in pugs thats it is not even funny. CP lvl means absolutely nothing.
    Maybe base it on amount of dungeons ran, or dungeon achievements with certain amount of vet dlc hm achis being cut off point.....

    While CP does not mean a player is good, this system is not really designed to help players avoid bad players. It's designed to help newer players first.

    If you want to get rid of playing with bad players you will have to form your own group. Always
    Most OwOrated healer of all time
  • Taleof2Cities
    Taleof2Cities
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    If you don’t like doing carries in DLC dungeons, @Heelie, you don’t use the dungeon finder. Period. Find a pre-made group instead.

    If you don’t like doing pledges with fresh players, @Heelie, you don’t use the dungeon finder. Period. Find a pre-made group instead.

    That will solve your two issues mentioned above.

    Your proposal of additional queue layers and opt-out features would make the queue longer for players in pretty much every role.
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  • Gahmerdohn
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    If you don’t like doing carries in DLC dungeons, @Heelie, you don’t use the dungeon finder. Period. Find a pre-made group instead.

    If you don’t like doing pledges with fresh players, @Heelie, you don’t use the dungeon finder. Period. Find a pre-made group instead.

    That will solve your two issues mentioned above.

    Your proposal of additional queue layers and opt-out features would make the queue longer for players in pretty much every role.

    I don't think you have understood the OP at all...

    ps: It is about helping willingly new players, not avoiding them...calm down nobody is you enemy here
  • Darkenarlol
    Darkenarlol
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    the problem is...cp means nothing

    there are so many useless clueless

    and helpless high cp players around


    more than that i'm afraid that the *help* that

    would be provided by normal high cp players to beginners

    gonna be just a dps carry in most cases

    (not mechanics explanation or something

    that might make begginer better at the game)


    don't get me wrong i'm not totally against your ideas

    but they just won't give us some gamechanger QoL solutions imo
  • Gahmerdohn
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    This is one aspect we have to look closely when we talk about this kind of subject:

    More than the idea to use the LFG tool to help new player we can take a look at where this idea comes from. I don't pretend to know you but for sure I can say one thing is that if this idea came at some point it's because the Guild system has failed to do one of the basic reason of its existence.

    What you're proposing is exactly what should do guilds in some extent, the guild is the structure that provides this "safe environment" for new players to learn when they are not the kind of people that can just learn by themselves using external sources of information already being veteran MMO players.

    But in ESO guilds are usually failing at doing so. Most guilds that are about "social interactions" and "helping each other out" are usually full of very well-intentioned people but they themselves don't really play the game at a high level or even understand the game deeply.
    I'm not trying to diminish their work here but this is a fact. In those guilds, you usually learn about crafting and where to gear and very basic aspects of the game but the level of progression available to you in those guilds is very limited. They themselves struggle sometimes to do vet DLC donjons.

    Then you have the endgame guilds that only accept you if you are able to do 90k damage on the raid dummy...And they don't want to lose their precious time explaining something to people that are "bad at the game" when doing a dungeon for example.

    In between these two, you have some guilds that could do the trick but they often have a low population, therefore, looks less attractive and are ignored by those who need them really. If you add the fact that there's too many of them (beeing on Mega servers) it makes everything more complicated from a certain perspective.

    In that context, only a few people get to the point where they start understanding the game and the others just stop playing quickly replaced by fresh new players.

    Because of seeking too much convenience this game has maybe gone too far cause guilds in ESO feels meaningless in most cases and when added to the other factors the attention retention in this game is so low that even the people that want to help new player gets tired of investing their time to help people only to see them stopping the game 2 weeks after....

    So to resume the issues that create this all situation: if the game does not shift from "conveniences, conveniences, conveniences " with things like 5 guilds with 500 players each, LFG systems, easy have it all to put more attention into creating:

    -Meaningful Work

    and

    -Meaningful Relationships

    No LFG, LFT, new content schedule, will help in the long run and the attention retention of the game will stay low alimenting again the sensations of meaningless social experience which leads to abandon the game easily...this is a vicious circle.

  • Major_Lag
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    Heelie wrote: »
    My first problem is DLC dungeons. (...)
    The second problem with the current system is getting queued up with completely fresh players when trying to do daily pledges . Sometimes you just don't have the time on your hand to deal with a group that will take maybe two hours clearing a single base game dungeon. I have been there and had to just leave the group after first boss.
    I assume you are talking about vet basegame dungeons.

    If you aren't grinding for a monster helm then you can always just queue for normal instead, most basegame normal dungeons can be easily soloed even if the rest of the group is AFK or dead.

    I'd much rather breeze through 2 normal pledges (with a PUG) and earn 2 keys in half an hour or so, rather than PUG vet and in the process play the Russian Roulette of PUGging vet content.
    And in normal, I can easily carry the group through the content if needed, even if they are completely hopeless.
  • Cryptical
    Cryptical
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    You are too late.

    The structure of the ground-up rewritten group finder was set down a year ago, or some other long past time frame. Because software project development really does take that long.

    If the feature is in there, it’s because someone at Zeni argued it should be in there, without player feedback on the thing as it progressed.
    Edited by Cryptical on September 12, 2019 11:54AM
    Xbox NA / Main heals
  • redlink1979
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    I don't mind at all playing with new players n helping them out. We are all newbies at some point.
    "Sweet Mother, sweet Mother, send your child unto me, for the sins of the unworthy must be baptized in blood and fear"

    Speaker of Sons of the Night Mother guild [PS4][EU]

    1200+ CP
  • IndianaJames7
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    In addition to some of the points others have mentioned here, I see a critical flaw with this idea. Allowing high level players to specifically queue with low level players will not improve the experience for the low level players. Allow me to explain.

    The first time I ever ran a dungeon I was probably level 15 and it was such an awesome experience that it hooked me to keep playing eso. Myself and 3 other randoms did fungal grotto 1 on normal and for 3/4 of us, it was the first time ever stepping into a dungeon. None of us were very good or knew what we were doing very much (as a dps I was basically just heavy attacking and not wearing any gear for the most part) which made the dungeon a struggle and took us long enough to actually pay attention to the quest that was going on.

    Fast forward a few years, 4000+ in game hours almost 1200 cp later, dungeons are no longer the experience they used to be. Most dungeons are an absolute joke in terms of difficulty for experienced players, with the exception of vet dlcs. The only reason most experienced players have to do these dungeons is for a the experience reward from random normal.

    On the rare occasion I choose to do a random normal on one of my main toons here is how it typically goes: dps overkill - pretty much everything is dead before the tank even has a chance to aggro them. Even bosses die in seconds for most normal dungeons. It is also well known that experienced players will choose to group with low level characters for random normals so they get the easiest and quickest dungeons to fly through(coa1, fg1, bc1).

    I worry what the experienced friendly option you are talking about will turn into just what I have described. Experienced players carrying new players through content so quick they don’t even have a chance to experience it (or in many cases even complete/turn in dungeon quest). This is likely not fun for most players as they wont have the chance to play the intended mechanics or really do anything, since even one good dps can solo a normal dungeon while everyone else is just playing catch up. More importantly, this is counterproductive as it will not give new characters the chance to learn and become better players.

    While the idea of having a helpful experienced player teach newer players is nice, I worry that the inevitable outcome of this will be that this feature is overwhelmingly used for speed carries by experienced players who aren’t going to be helpful, but simply want the quickest random normal possible. This already happens to an extent, but allowing high level players to queue for specifically low level dungeons will exacerbate this happening.
  • Jeremy
    Jeremy
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    Heelie wrote: »
    This idea sprung in to my mind after playing retail World of Warcraft, in WoW there is a little checkmark next the dungeon finder where you can express your desire to queue with newer players, this way you willingly accept that the people you are queued up with are are newer / less experienced. This option is great feature and as someone who recently opened a new account the feature is really working, the queue times weren't long and the people I got with where all friendly.

    I really think ESO needs a similar feature in the upcoming dungeon finder, my idea for how it would go would be as following:

    The group finder matches 2 veteran players, and two newer players. "Now it could also just be one inexperinced if there are not enough queued up."

    Both groups play a support and a dps role. This means any group composition can take place. But neither support or dps is completely behind.

    People under lvl 50 and up to CP 160 are always using this queue method as "newer" player in both normal and veteran dungeons.

    CP 160 - 300 you can choose to option out of this queue method in normal dungeons

    CP 300 - 600, you can option out completely.

    CP 600+ you can option in as a veteran player helping newer players.

    This specific queue will feature no DLC dungeons.

    If a queue option like this was introduced it would fix a lot of my gripes with the current dungeon finder. I am mostly playing a tank whenever I do dungeons as I really enjoy the challenges they present. But I rarely ever use the dungeon finder even though I don't mind helping newer players.

    My first problem is DLC dungeons. I am not patient enough to do this content with players that have never done it before. While I don't mind spending another 30 minutes in veteran city of ash 2. Often even clearing a single boss with a complete pug group in a DLC dungeon will take hours. While I know some people like the challenge, I feel like most people are in my place.

    The second problem with the current system is getting queued up with completely fresh players when trying to do daily pledges . Sometimes you just don't have the time on your hand to deal with a group that will take maybe two hours clearing a single base game dungeon. I have been there and had to just leave the group after first boss.

    The last feature I think might help is to prevent kicking people that are not afk/ idle or offline, this is to prevent people exploiting the queue. The group will be registered as a friendly pug group if people from the "newer" group bracket are in the group. We can already not disband dungeon groups this should'nt be an issue

    Now here is the thing I am a bit indifferent about

    On one hand this feature could function like a completely new queue. so instead of a checkmark we have 2 more options in the dungeon finder, we now have 4 different player pools instead of two. This would increase queue times for everyone no doubt. But this would also encourage people to queue up specifically to avoid DLC dungeons. This feature would make the queue function a lot better even at the cost of queue times going up. You would be able to choose exactly when to queue up with newer players and when not to. This should decrease negative dungeon experiences across the board.

    The other option would be a checkmark. This way a veteran player queueing would not be 100% sure if they got in a veteran group or one of the “friendly groups” when they queue for a random dungeon, or a specific base game one for that matter. What happens is instead just a change in the algorithm in which players gets matched. This would probably not increase queue times across the board. However it would take a few more calculations from ZOS server side. This should'nt be a problem according to the “Road Map”. Now I know this is not something the server would be able to handle at this time.

    I know that most veteran players out there genuinely wants to help newers players, but right now there is no option to choose time and place. And this discourages a lot of players from ever using the dungeon finder. This would help pair the right players much better.

    Let me know your thoughts!

    I like the intention of your post but believe the approach is misguided. Instead of basing it on CP levels - which is mostly irrelevant - just give players the option to check a training box or not. That way players can choose whether or not to learn content with inexperienced players or identify as an experienced player looking solely for experienced groups.

    This is actually a great idea now that I think about it - because it should separate the "speed runners" from the rest of the community - which sorely needs to happen.
  • Huyen
    Huyen
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    The only thing you will achieve is more toxicity in the LFG sadly...
    Huyen Shadowpaw, dedicated nightblade tank.
    Ps4 eu

    Bring back saptanks!
  • Austinseph1
    Austinseph1
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    Honestly high cp is not as analogous with skill as much as you would think. In group finder I meet many players at 300 cp that are practiced and good at what they do and then the nex1 you get 2 1000+ cp players who don't know how to bash, block or do over 10k DPS. There should be some sort of test for each role like a solo arena that grades you depending on how far you get. Like a MA that starts off at normal fungal grotto level and as you go scales up to vet HM DLC dungeons. A place to practice general mechanics and rotation/tanking and teach you to actually understand the game and not just get carried by a CP level ad give you a "Grade". I mean Its way better than judging by cp and you have no excuses but your own practice. It wont make things any more toxic than people judging by clears/cp/dummy cheese. It actually gives you a basis for how well you can follow mechanics in real fight scenarios and help you learn and have fun. Maybe an advanced endless tutorial arena that rotates random mechanics and fun to play and continuously ramps up in difficulty till you just get killed haha.
  • InvictusApollo
    InvictusApollo
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    But... I already get inexperienced and bad players when I use DF. I already do everything, even tank and heal. You can't expect me to also click on some checkbox in DF.
  • Alinhbo_Tyaka
    Alinhbo_Tyaka
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    The only way I could see this working is if there was some type of level sync for the higher level players. While they might like to help, the mobs and bosses will tend to be overpowered to the point where the experienced players won't be able to teach the mechanics.
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