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Fake Tanks: Why can't the finder automatically determine Tank/Heals/DPS?
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Darkenarlol✭✭✭✭✭
✭anytime i see *remove fake tanks bla-bla*
i want to say *remove fake dps (less than 40k st) first*6 -
Partomax✭✭✭In a random normal scenario a fake tank/healer with high DPS will be significantly more valuable than even a good tank. Even better if both your support roles are actually just two people with high DPS and burn through the dungeon in minutes. For harder content that actually requires support roles you should be forming the group yourself beforehand anyways.
Personally I queue as tank/healer only on my two highest DPS characters and I'm usually dealing 70% of group DPS while tanking mostly bosses and throwing in a few heals here and there, I see a lot of people complain outside of random normals but never when I do it so I assume the problem is people with really low damage just trying to skip queues and not actually being more valuable than a tank would be.PC/EU - This is a signature2 -
Ydrisselle✭✭✭✭✭Darkenarlol wrote: »anytime i see *remove fake tanks bla-bla*
i want to say *remove fake dps (less than 40k st) first*
Yeah, it's definitely a good idea to remove at least half of the players from dungeons.Edited by Ydrisselle on September 8, 2019 1:23PM1 -
RexyCat✭✭✭✭VaranisArano wrote: »Because there's no way to make sure someone stays using that build, especially on PC with gear swap add-ons.
ZOS could probably do it, but that's a lot of effort for something that can be easily worked around. For tanking, just equip a taunt to queue and then remove it in the dungeon type easy.
Fake tank, healer or dps could just as well keep what ever skills or gear they have to get passed by AF check like that and still not contribute neither to their role or do anything that are expected in a group, just to get in a group and then to leech while other try to finish dungeon. It would just cause another layer that people would use to get around in queuing for getting fast rewards.
//RexyCat0 -
regime211✭✭✭✭✭
✭StabbityDoom wrote: »Let's assume the finder looks at builds, determines which you are, and puts you in that role. I realize some people have experimental roles but let's pretend like Zos can tell based on your selected abilities, cp & gear. That way no more fake tanks or fake heals and dps feeling entitled to queue as such?
Lol people are concerned about fake tanks. but when they get a real tank, the DPS and or the healer is straight dog doodoo. I have seen more TANKS leave a group because the DPS or healer can't even put out.Edited by regime211 on September 8, 2019 2:09PM3 -
FakeFox✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭StabbityDoom wrote: »Oh i'm sure they could do it, and ensure no gear change etc. They already do it for in combat.
Not being able to swap between AOE and single target setup sure sound like a lot of fun. Not being able to take in self heal if the healer is bad? Fantastic! Speedbuff between fights? None needs that! Need purge for a single fight? Just run a dead slot the entire dungeon.EU/PC (GER) - Healermain since 2014 - 50305 Achievement Points - Youtube (PvE Healing Guides, Builds & Gameplay)1 -
Calm_Fury✭✭✭✭✭I posted this a few times on the forums and on Reddit: the only way to decrease the fake tanks thing is to make the punishment bigger than the reward.
Why do people queue as fake tanks? What is the reward? To get faster queues and get their pledges/farming runs done faster.
What would be a punishment for that? Make finding a group slower by blocking the use of the Group Finder.
ZOS should create a different kind of vote to kick, like "Vote to Kick for Fake Role". Once a player is kicked an X number of times in Y time window, the player would get blocked from using the Group Finder at all for a set amount of time. Just like the Social Ban prevent people from using Mail, Whisper and so on when the system thinks they abused it.
The punishment would be ACCOUNT WIDE and increase exponentially for repeating offenses.
The numbers would need to be adjusted to prevent trolls, but, completely as example, imagine a player gets kicked 3 times for fake role in a 7 day window? He would get a 24 hours ban on the group finder.
But the punishment would increase. Say the same player gets 3 more kicks for fake roles in the next 15 days? Now he gets 3 days without being able to use Group Finder. Next offense, is 7 day ban, then 15, then 30.
And so on... To the point where repeating offenders would be completely blocked from using Group Finder at all (say, 30 days ban).
The exact numbers should NOT be publicized so nobody can "game the system".
In the WORST case with a system like that, a fake tank would be wary of doing this repeatedly after being kicked a few times and would do it less.5 -
Elsonso✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭StabbityDoom wrote: »Let's assume the finder looks at builds, determines which you are, and puts you in that role. I realize some people have experimental roles but let's pretend like Zos can tell based on your selected abilities, cp & gear. That way no more fake tanks or fake heals and dps feeling entitled to queue as such?
I don't think that they will do this, as it sets a standard for each role. This discourages experimentation. If they implemented it, they would have people complaining that their experimental tank/damage/heal/hybrid was being blocked by the game.XBox EU/NA:@ElsonsoJannus
PC NA/EU: @Elsonso
PSN NA/EU: @ElsonsoJannus
Total in-game hours: 11321
X/Twitter: ElsonsoJannus0 -
Agenericname✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭StabbityDoom wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Because there's no way to make sure someone stays using that build, especially on PC with gear swap add-ons.
ZOS could probably do it, but that's a lot of effort for something that can be easily worked around. For tanking, just equip a taunt to queue and then remove it in the dungeon type easy.
Oh i'm sure they could do it, and ensure no gear change etc. They already do it for in combat.
That would be an unreasonable restriction. People change skills all the time for legitimate reasons.
There are very few restrictions or filtering methods proposed that do not penalize people performing their roles as intended. The trick seems to be to find something that doesn't. Many people will find the normal dungeons do not specifically need a tank or a healer. For some they will. Some this bothers, some it does not. It seems more practical to separate those two groups in the RDF than it does to enforce restrictions that impact those who are performing the roles they signed up for.
Allow the RDF an option for tradiational groups and another for flexible roles.2 -
InvictusApollo✭✭✭✭✭
✭wtlonewolf20 wrote: »StabbityDoom wrote: »Let's assume the finder looks at builds, determines which you are, and puts you in that role. I realize some people have experimental roles but let's pretend like Zos can tell based on your selected abilities, cp & gear. That way no more fake tanks or fake heals and dps feeling entitled to queue as such?
It wont Because ZOS appears to be committed to removing roles from the game. I am totally expecting that with the next update for them to expect us all to self heal, self tank, and self deal damage.
That is basically what we already do in PvP.0 -
StabbityDoom✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭StabbityDoom wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Because there's no way to make sure someone stays using that build, especially on PC with gear swap add-ons.
ZOS could probably do it, but that's a lot of effort for something that can be easily worked around. For tanking, just equip a taunt to queue and then remove it in the dungeon type easy.
Oh i'm sure they could do it, and ensure no gear change etc. They already do it for in combat.
But then, what if we decide as a group that we need other strategies? Other skills, other buffs, or, say.. An off healer or off tank? You gotta have a chance to adapt after a wipe, or even before if you already know the fights... Wouldn't you agree?
Yeah, I think that's the biggest problem with my theory.0 -
Facefister✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭There should be also a mandatory DPS test which will unlock you the finder if you pass it, how about that?0 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭StabbityDoom wrote: »Let's assume the finder looks at builds, determines which you are, and puts you in that role. I realize some people have experimental roles but let's pretend like Zos can tell based on your selected abilities, cp & gear. That way no more fake tanks or fake heals and dps feeling entitled to queue as such?
Lol people are concerned about fake tanks. but when they get a real tank, the DPS and or the healer is straight dog doodoo. I have seen more TANKS leave a group because the DPS or healer can't even put out.
Most decent tanks do not queue solo because of not just bad dps but players that chose to ignore mechanics and cause the group to wipe over and over.
That is why you have to wait so long for a queue and it is best, and of course truly easiest, to take the time to form your own group before hand.2 -
Jayman1000✭✭✭✭✭
✭StabbityDoom wrote: »Let's assume the finder looks at builds, determines which you are, and puts you in that role. I realize some people have experimental roles but let's pretend like Zos can tell based on your selected abilities, cp & gear. That way no more fake tanks or fake heals and dps feeling entitled to queue as such?
I bolded the problematic part. Pretending does not make real. In reality zos cannot tell, based on your selected abilities, cp and gear. Well, except if you got no taunt at all, that can be registered. But what then, you can just remove the ability when you get into the dungeon, and then all those restrictions in the finder were pointless. Or do you also suggest we cant change abilities (or even gear?) on the bars once dungeon is entered? yrgh.
No. You are looking at this from the wrong perspective. Instead of implementing restrictions for gameplay to force people to do what YOU want, you need to offer customizations so that like minded players can get to together and do what THEY want. Group finder should have lots of customization options to do this, but we may have to wait forever to have it. check back in 2029 to see if a few custom options may have been added.Edited by Jayman1000 on September 8, 2019 10:35PM0 -
StabbityDoom✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Jayman1000 wrote: »StabbityDoom wrote: »Let's assume the finder looks at builds, determines which you are, and puts you in that role. I realize some people have experimental roles but let's pretend like Zos can tell based on your selected abilities, cp & gear. That way no more fake tanks or fake heals and dps feeling entitled to queue as such?
I bolded the problematic part. Pretending does not make real. In reality zos cannot tell, based on your selected abilities, cp and gear. Well, except if you got no taunt at all, that can be registered. But what then, you can just remove the ability when you get into the dungeon, and then all those restrictions in the finder were pointless. Or do you also suggest we cant change abilities (or even gear?) on the bars once dungeon is entered? yrgh.
No. You are looking at this from the wrong perspective. Instead of implementing restrictions for gameplay to force people to do what YOU want, you need to offer customization so that like minded players can get to together and do what THEY want. Group finder should have lots of customization options to do this, but we may have to wait forever to have it. check back in 2029 to see if a few custom options may have been added.
That's really a good idea you have.0 -
Jayman1000✭✭✭✭✭
✭StabbityDoom wrote: »Jayman1000 wrote: »StabbityDoom wrote: »Let's assume the finder looks at builds, determines which you are, and puts you in that role. I realize some people have experimental roles but let's pretend like Zos can tell based on your selected abilities, cp & gear. That way no more fake tanks or fake heals and dps feeling entitled to queue as such?
I bolded the problematic part. Pretending does not make real. In reality zos cannot tell, based on your selected abilities, cp and gear. Well, except if you got no taunt at all, that can be registered. But what then, you can just remove the ability when you get into the dungeon, and then all those restrictions in the finder were pointless. Or do you also suggest we cant change abilities (or even gear?) on the bars once dungeon is entered? yrgh.
No. You are looking at this from the wrong perspective. Instead of implementing restrictions for gameplay to force people to do what YOU want, you need to offer customization so that like minded players can get to together and do what THEY want. Group finder should have lots of customization options to do this, but we may have to wait forever to have it. check back in 2029 to see if a few custom options may have been added.
That's really a good idea you have.
cool, glad you think that! Now if only the zos would come to the same conclusion
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idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Jayman1000 wrote: »
No. You are looking at this from the wrong perspective. Instead of implementing restrictions for gameplay to force people to do what YOU want, you need to offer customizations so that like minded players can get to together and do what THEY want. Group finder should have lots of customization options to do this, but we may have to wait forever to have it. check back in 2029 to see if a few custom options may have been added.StabbityDoom wrote: »Let's assume the finder looks at builds, determines which you are, and puts you in that role. I realize some people have experimental roles but let's pretend like Zos can tell based on your selected abilities, cp & gear. That way no more fake tanks or fake heals and dps feeling entitled to queue as such?
It is really easy to say this without udnerstanding both the work it would require to design, build and implement along with the additional headaches it will cause. If you think it would not casue issues then you have not paid much attention to the forums with people complaining about all sorts of silly things becasuye they were to lazy to form their own group.
It is really simple. The GF is not intended to be the perfect match maker. It is intended to performa basic function and if you want more then it is on you to form your own group. That part is really easy. Do not want to then you will just have to deal because it would be a bad move for Zos to start holding everyones hand like this.0 -
Calm_Fury✭✭✭✭✭
People will ALWAYS try to abuse any system.
That is why the numbers would be adjusted so that only REPEAT offenders would be punished.
People ALREADY abuse the Group Finder system.
Every system that you put online will have people trying to abuse it. If we stopped trying because of that, we would never implement anything, ever.0 -
kargen27✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Darkenarlol wrote: »anytime i see *remove fake tanks bla-bla*
i want to say *remove fake dps (less than 40k st) first*
You are confusing "fake" with "good."and then the parrot said, "must be the water mines green too."1 -
AlnilamE✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Jayman1000 wrote: »StabbityDoom wrote: »Let's assume the finder looks at builds, determines which you are, and puts you in that role. I realize some people have experimental roles but let's pretend like Zos can tell based on your selected abilities, cp & gear. That way no more fake tanks or fake heals and dps feeling entitled to queue as such?
I bolded the problematic part. Pretending does not make real. In reality zos cannot tell, based on your selected abilities, cp and gear. Well, except if you got no taunt at all, that can be registered. But what then, you can just remove the ability when you get into the dungeon, and then all those restrictions in the finder were pointless. Or do you also suggest we cant change abilities (or even gear?) on the bars once dungeon is entered? yrgh.
No. You are looking at this from the wrong perspective. Instead of implementing restrictions for gameplay to force people to do what YOU want, you need to offer customizations so that like minded players can get to together and do what THEY want. Group finder should have lots of customization options to do this, but we may have to wait forever to have it. check back in 2029 to see if a few custom options may have been added.
That would remove the random dungeon option, which is why many people actually run dungeons.The Moot Councillor0 -
priforce✭✭✭StabbityDoom wrote: »Let's assume the finder looks at builds, determines which you are, and puts you in that role. I realize some people have experimental roles but let's pretend like Zos can tell based on your selected abilities, cp & gear. That way no more fake tanks or fake heals and dps feeling entitled to queue as such?
It is doable - through a scoring and achievements system.
The finder can look at how much has the person utilized the role, as well as passives, skill, gear level, and achievements. It can work. May just require another system once all others are up to snuff.1 -
Gahmerdohn✭✭✭maybe just make the content actually relevent...maybe this could be an idea.
If the mobs were doing some real damage maybe tank and healer would become valuable again? You don't see much fake tanks or healers in vet DLC dungeon and the bad DD's are usually kicked soon enough let's say in Lair of Maarselok for example
You don't need to create more system and laws and crap just make the content relevant...0 -
Alinhbo_Tyaka✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭By changing Group Finder you are killing flexibility of a partial group who don't need a tank for a particular dungeon. My guild will run new and lower level folks through normal dungeons for various reasons and fill out the group with a random player. It is not uncommon that I or another maxed player will queue as a tank and/or healer to make room for the DPS. I've been in my fair share of PUG's with fake tanks that fall apart the first boss and all we do is kick that person. When a real tank arrives we continue from where we left off. It's no big deal.0 -
IlCanis_LupuslI✭✭✭✭✭I do pledges/ events/ gear farming on my stamsorc dps all the time as tank, i just equip SnB n taunt. My dps still better than the pugs but im also keeping aggro, i dont see a need for a tank except trials/arenas.
As a healer and dps player I strongly disagree...
In both cases it makes my job 100x harder so no thank you.
A good tank increases group dps easily by 50% by holding the boss still applying debuffs buffing group damage and making sure the healer and dps don't have to worry about big adds 1 banging them. I'd rather have 2 good dps and 1 good tank in my group instead of 3 good dds who all can't pull their full dps cause the boss is wandering about.
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Khajiit Night blade Healer(BiS for cuteness)-Flawless Conquerer Grand Overlord
Khajiit Stamsorc Werewolf, Flawless Conquerer (1st attempt ww form during the entire dungeon) main
Khajiit(Master Race) Templar Healer, Flawless Conquerer
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Werewolf Veteran player, Since Wrathstone-DLC "Raid-Wolf", 50k dps with fracture, Pvp Healer.0
