J2JMC wrote: »

eso_lags wrote: »

J2JMC wrote: »

Rikumaru wrote: »

"Ultimate abilities are some of the most powerful abilities in the game. We added cast times so there is counter play; we felt that having 3-4 abilities hitting you at once, including an Ultimate, is just too much."

I hope ZOS realise you can't cast more than 1 ability (barring flying blade morph) in a GCD. And if they are talking about weaving light attacks, DoTs, delayed attacks such as shulks, enchants or bash; you can still do all of the above with a cast time. The cast time on ultimates literally makes zero sense and feels awful to play with. And it seems the vast majority of players agree that cast times suck too.

What about this this doesn't make sense?

The logic behind cast time on ultimates is incredibly simple: ZOS feels these abilities are so strong that their damage and effects should not hit instantly. Even if you disagree, it makes complete sense. It's not possible to misunderstand.

A significant majority of people complaining are stambuilds upset that their instant damage AOE move that hit like a single target with an accompanying dot was functionally nerfed. If DB was left untouched, most of ya'll wouldn't even care. Which makes me think that ZOS thought DBoS was overperforming, and unfortunately other ults were casualties of ZOS attempting to nerf it without changing the numbers.

Personally, I agree that the cast times don't look or feel good. I also agree their reasoning about not wanting multiple skills to hit at the same time seems a little odd. But I don't disagree with the design philosophy. High damage aoe ultimates that also provide cc probably shouldn't be instant. And tbh, there's been a precedent for that design since the game launched (meteor). That's a completely reasonable viewpoint. I just wish they would have hit DBoS directly and left the other ultimates alone. Absolutely no one was complaining about the nightblade ults or the weapon skill line ults.

But the logic is incredibly flawed for multiple reasons. The simplest reason is that the change is just bad for the combat style of this game. It also hurts melee players while other play styles still have options that arent impacted by this.

I've already said I don't like the implementation of the cast times from a gameplay perspective. I would have preferred they treat it like meteor where you can still do other things while the skill is going off. But the developers wanting to delay the burst from db makes sense. Even if you disagree with it, the change makes sense if they think the skill is overperforming. And yes, nerfs to skills tend to hurt the playstyles that use those skills. That's the point of nerfs.

eso_lags wrote: »

Id like for you, or someone, to try to tell how dawnbreaker was overperforming. Was it because a lot of people used it? Well lets see. Stam sorcs had no other option, at least for aoe. Stamplars and stamdens as well. Stam dks had leap and stam necros have bash and the collosus. Not everyone has options when that want a good aoe damage ultimate. Mag builds have much more options though..

I mean everyone shouldn't have the same options, so this is a moot point. That's the whole point of an MMO. There's nothing wrong with classes having actual advantages and disadvantages in a variety of situations. ZOS's "play as you want anyone can do anything with any class" philosophy is why the game is hard to balance in the first place, but that's a separate discussion.

And yes, when all classes are defaulting to a skill the way people did DBoS, it's probably overperforming and needs to be looked at. Same way dots need to be looked at since every class is running the same rotation.

eso_lags wrote: »

Another thing is that every ultimate has its advantage and disadvantage. Lets compare other ults to DBOS, ill put it in this spoiler..

Well dawny stuns, deals good damage, and has a medium cost.. Its down side is that its easier to dodge than other AOE ults because its AOE is a cone in front of you. There is its balance.

Leap deals more damage than DB, is an AOE, and stuns but has no DoT, it also has a cheaper cost.

Sweep deals good damage in a cone AOE and has a DoT/upfront damage.. But does not stun. In exchange it has a very low cost.

Collosus deals good damage and applies major vulnerability which makes the good damage it has actually like a truck, but in exchange its expensive and takes a few seconds.

Frost storm deals high damage, gives people protection, and snares/ccs people. It has a high cost.

Nova deals good damage in a large AOE, gives major maim to enemies, and has a synergy for friendlies to deal even more damage. It has a high cost.

Soul tether deals decent damage, heals you, stuns enemies, and has a medium cost.

Standard does good dot damage in a large AOE, gives major defile to enemies in it, has a synergy for allies, and has the option to either reduce your damage taken or to move the standard around to keep it on enemies. It has a high cost.

Berserker strike deals good damage, is now AOE damage, ignores the targets resistance, and grants you phys/spell pen for 11 seconds.

And thats just the mainly damage ults, some with utility. Corrosive and Goliath could also be included for multiple reasons.

The reason I listed these things is to explain that certain ultimates have certain advantages, im aware they are all different. Some of those advantages dont need to utilize a fast paced combat style that animation canceling a dawnbreaker offered. The other point I didnt mention is that this 400ms cast time LITERALLY does nothing for what zos was trying to accomplish.

Animation canceling dawnbreaker directly nullified the one disadvantage you listed lol. Let's be honest, no one was dodging canceled dawnbreakers on reaction. As a player, you could predict when it was coming and preemptively dodge. But that applies to every instant cast ultimate and is not exclusive to dawnbreaker.

The 400ms cast time quite clearly delays the burst that you can do by comboing a DB. So on that note, I'd say it accomplished what ZOS was trying to do.

eso_lags wrote: »

If the ability is over performing, what does this cast time do? Makes the ability more clunky, makes combat slightly slower and more clunky, and delays a player being hit by a dawnbreaker by less than half a second. A dawnbreaker they are going to be hit by regardless.

Look, I'm not saying you in particular did this. But people were adamant in the PTS threads that the change would make it impossible to connect a dawnbreaker on "anyone with thumbs". Now all of sudden people are still getting hit by dawnbreakers regardless of the change? Which is it?

eso_lags wrote: »

Or maybe zos wanted to make certain ultimates interruptible? If thats the case then look at the list above. Some of those ultimates offer so much damage and utility without the risk of being interrupted. And even if they can be, for certain play styles it doesnt matter. Like a mag necro dropping a collosus down from a distance wouldnt have to worry about that as much as an in your face melee stam sorc.

On the flip side, a magnecro is not connecting with a colossus against a melee range stam sorc and will get bodied in a 1v1 assuming both players are of equal skill. Once again, having advantages and disadvantages in a variety of situations is good for the game. You can't bring up an unrelated situation that the stam sorc is supposed to be disadvantaged in as an argument against the change. Even if DB didn't have a cast time, that wouldn't change anything about the magnecro having an advantage at range.

eso_lags wrote: »

There are so many flaws in the theory that dawnbreaker was over performing, and that adding this cast time has fixed it. Melee builds were definitely hit harder by this change, especially if you use DB. But range has its benefits like i said before. Not everything in this game is equal.

In the end, as usual, this change hurts small scale players the most. Like I've said multiple times. Solo/small scale players often depend on fast, precise, and strategic gameplay to try and survive fighting outnumbered. Same goes for end game pve players.. Im not sure who would want slower clunky combat, especially since eso has such amazing combat. Even many people who play more casually or play large scale pvp dont like this. Again because it feels awful.

It also hurts console players and any players who experience lag on a daily basis like many console pvp players do. Because any cast time gets increased in lag, by a lot sometimes.

I don't think adding cast times was a fix. I think there were better ways to delay the burst, but still allow the fluidity of combat.
I would like ZOS to revisit the cast time decision. But again, 5 skills had cast times added to them. This thread is supposedly about the clunkiness of cast times, yet only one skill is talked about. You even mentioned two skills that had cast times added to them, and then used those skills to try and explain why DB shouldn't have had a cast time. These threads are not just about cast times. People are upset that their overperforming skill was nerfed. We'd still see the same threads if DB was changed to act like meteor.

As an aside, it's understandably frustrating that small scale play is hurt. However, ZOS actively trying to balance around small scale pvp when the pvp in this game is primarily AvAvA and casual friendly would just be proof that the game is dead. Casual whales are not at all concerned about 1vX montages.

Im talking about dawnbreaker because, as a stam sorc main, its the ultimate I use most. I also explained to you why its different to have a melee ultimate have a cast time, something many people use for fast paced melee combat in medium armor, vs a ranged caster safely kiting and casting from range to try and kill people before they even get to them. Of course that means using their ultimate at range. Granted it doesnt always happen but thats the idea, its very different. So people can compare it to meteor or whatever you want but its different.

And dont throw something like "people are upset that their overperforming skill was nerfed".You actually didnt give me a reason why it was over performing. I've yet to see anyone give a valid reason honestly. Just that dawnbreaker, specifically, was over performing. And now suddenly its not, wow amazing how that works.

I can also see why people would have said no one would get hit by dawnbreaker with the cast time. People over react, especially with bad changes that they know are bad.. But obviously when you delay something it makes it harder to hit someone, giving them more chances to dodge. Regardless, if I killed you with dawnbreaker last patch I will do it again this patch in the same way, the change is not saving anyone.

Animation canceling dawnbreaker directly nullified the one disadvantage you listed lol. Let's be honest, no one was dodging canceled dawnbreakers on reaction. As a player, you could predict when it was coming and preemptively dodge. But that applies to every instant cast ultimate and is not exclusive to dawnbreaker.

Well we can agree to disagree because I see this as a reason to not have cast times. Certain ultimate's, like the ones with the cast times now, can be dodged at random. But a lof of the time it was simply out of instinct or experience. Knowing they were vulnerable, knowing the time since the opponent last used their ulti, knowing they might get hit by it, and dodging an animation canceled ultimate. Yes, it happened often. Dawnbreaker, or incap or whatever. This can either be random luck or from your experience. But thats one of the down sides to using it.

As for the other ultimates with cast times.. No, i didnt use them to explain what DB shouldnt have a cast time. I used them to show that every skill has its advantage and disadvantage. Like. I. Said.

Death Stroke & morphs: Added a 400ms cast time to these abilities to sync up with their animations.
Dawnbreaker & morphs: Added a 400ms cast time to these abilities.
Berserker Strike & morphs: Added a 400ms cast time to these abilities.
Soul Shred & morphs: Added a 500ms cast time to these abilities.
Lacerate & morphs: Added a 500ms cast time to these abilities, rather than the 500ms delay they had before.

Every skills cast time on this list is garbage. There you go. All melee skills that are utilized by fast paced melee builds. It seems zos thinks a medium armor build trying to fight someone in melee range is the same as a ranged build, most likely with shields, casting at someone and trying to kite away.

And yes, when all classes are defaulting to a skill the way people did DBoS, it's probably overperforming and needs to be looked at. Same way dots need to be looked at since every class is running the same rotation.

No, not every class is running it. And probably over performing is not a reason to nerf it, or an answer to my question of how it was.

On the flip side, a magnecro is not connecting with a colossus against a melee range stam sorc and will get bodied in a 1v1 assuming both players are of equal skill.

Ranged magic users usually have to time their burst a bit more carefully than some other builds, but when they do they hit like a truck. Mag necro, mag sorc, mag blade, even magden a bit. A mag necro could absolutely land the colossus if they time it right.

However, ZOS actively trying to balance around small scale pvp when the pvp in this game is primarily AvAvA and casual friendly would just be proof that the game is dead. Casual whales are not at all concerned about 1vX montages.

This is one of the most ridiculous arguments I see people make. Its not about 1vx montages. Its about zos constantly shitting on small scale players. Small scale pvp IS a play style in this game. I could understand not wanting to sacrifice certain things for the sake of small scale players. But at a point it just becomes ridiculous. Zos keeps making pointless changes, changes that no one asks for, changes that hurt small scale players so much more than they could ever help anyone else. But its because they are out of touch with this game. Especially PVP, and especially small scale. But I get it, why care about something if its not something you do?

Theres no point in arguing about this. It wont be the first bad change zos makes and it wont be the last. But I'd still love to hear exactly how it was over performing.

I've actually seen ppl advocating for gcd's on all skills and expanding the skill slots. I'm guessing they have or had played another mmo.

Jeremy wrote: »

Rikumaru wrote: »

"Ultimate abilities are some of the most powerful abilities in the game. We added cast times so there is counter play; we felt that having 3-4 abilities hitting you at once, including an Ultimate, is just too much."

I hope ZOS realise you can't cast more than 1 ability (barring flying blade morph) in a GCD. And if they are talking about weaving light attacks, DoTs, delayed attacks such as shulks, enchants or bash; you can still do all of the above with a cast time. The cast time on ultimates literally makes zero sense and feels awful to play with. And it seems the vast majority of players agree that cast times suck too.

Going to side with what ever ZoS employee made that quote.

Cast times on ultimate abilities were necessary. It was extremely chessy and stupid to have people just dump all their ultimate abilities on you for instant death kills. So I disagree with the OP about this - as well as that poll.

PvP generally has improved quite a bit since the update. It's still deadly. But there is less instant death and counter play actually exists now - where as before it was just death with no way to avoid it.

What are you??

Even before Wrathstone, good players could counter any incoming burst damage, ALSO if someone managed to do difficult skill combo perfectly on you, you MUST die. Accept this fact.

Calboy wrote: »

I'm loving the cast times, it's nice having animations actually completed.

People complaining are probably the same type that think running around a tree is a legitimate combat style.

I know this is a game set in a fantasy world but come on, let's at least have proper animations and hand to hand combat. The good players are still going to be better than the bad players.

Yes, anyway good players will slay bad players. So why make good players life harder and destroy their nerves with that *** .4 milliseconds cast time??

If you love fantasy role play, go play Skyrim with full animations...