Another great and unexpected experience

teladoy · August 2019

Today i been matched in Veteran dungeon with 3 guys where one of them should be the healer, but he was doing damage and not healing. Then me as a Tank stop this madness and said it. They al reponded "we know". Then i started a vote to kick him but they all declined it.

I'm a man of principles and for that reason i left. The thing is that i been penalized 10 minutes for do what is right.

This happen after 5 minutes of loggin... and this is another thing i have stuck in my throat about this game, where a bunch of developers can not think in any *** solution to try and catch this kind of disturbing behavior and for that reason, because they don't want to think and they prefeer to cut by the root and put everybody in the same bag, i will just close this game and go to that classic game to see if it can change my mode.

Sadly i'm pretty sure that this kind of solutions only affect in the majority to the good people more than the bad one.

I wish you all a good night.

reprosal · August 2019

Sleep well gentle prince!

OsManiaC · August 2019

How hard can be to implement a "quality of life" feature that checks if tank and healer has at least one role specific skill?

oh quality of life?

HELL NO - I rather accept 10 mins penalty and ragequit

redspecter23 · August 2019

OsManiaC wrote: »

How hard can be to implement a "quality of life" feature that checks if tank and healer has at least one role specific skill?

oh quality of life?

HELL NO - I rather accept 10 mins penalty and ragequit

Tank slots taunt and enters queue. In reality, he's a dps with 9 of his standard abilities and Inner Fire on back bar slot 5 that he will never use. My stam templar slots vigor. Can I queue as a healer?

Forcing restrictions on players will not help if they have no intention of actually using the abilities. No matter what restrictions ZOS imposes, players will find a way around it if that's what they want to do. Outside of literally forcing a taunt key press during boss fights (tank) or auto healing (for healers), they can't really do much.

Vonbone · August 2019

So let me get this right, you use the random dungeon finder and get upset because you get players that can't do the content. Why would you put yourself in this predicament? Join a leet dungeon/raid guild and be done. Problem solved.

svendf · August 2019

In norm it can be a problem to kick them as they often have a friend as a back up. They dont bring anything to the game than bad game play. Vet that`s an other story from what i´m use to - fakes are getting booted- I have seen in norm how fake tanks making a whole group running after a boss and getting low lvl killed.

It´s we as a community who have to do something about it and not accept these bad player´s.

Just hang in there and kick them

teladoy · August 2019

At least they should implement some kind of one man trust rule.

My idea would be the follow:

If a person is in a team that considers a fake then he can leave without being penalized but before doing it, he has to write the reasons in some kind window.

If a person leaves too many times in a determined period of time, then it should be investigated to control his behavior.

If the player is abusing of the system then has to be penalized.

If a player leaves the groups with he has been matched but every long intervals of time then it would automatically reset the control.

kargen27 · August 2019

Can I have your stuff? This is an I quit thread after all.

And yeah there is a problem with people not playing the role they queue as but I don't see an easy solution so long as players are willing to tolerate it.
A possible solution would be to allow players to opt into a random group that is non traditional in make-up. Players that did that might end up with four DPS or whatever. It would provide at least some relief for DPS not wanting to wait in queue so long. That is the real problem, the queue times.

And I still would like your stuff.

kojou · August 2019

So did the group have trouble killing something, or did you just drop out of principle?

teladoy · August 2019

kojou wrote: »

So did the group have trouble killing something, or did you just drop out of principle?

Both. The people die and resurrect randomly in the first 3 pulls. Then I quickly I realize it would be a *** to fight bosses like that.

So after all the proofs and facts, and with the help of my honorable and truly convictions, i followed my principles and I left.

ccmedaddy · August 2019

Been there, done that. You just need to find a good guild filled with competent people and you'll never have to tank for noobs again.

Dusk_Coven · August 2019

teladoy wrote: »

Today i been matched in Veteran dungeon with 3 guys where one of them should be the healer, but he was doing damage and not healing. Then me as a Tank stop this madness and said it. They al reponded "we know". Then i started a vote to kick him but they all declined it.

Yeah they basically exploited the random queue and group mechanics in various ways.
I suppose you could have just let them die over and over until they kick you and found someone to carry them but that could have cost you more time than the deserter penalty, so overall you may have made the most time-saving choice.

I hope you reported them too.

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Been there, done that. You just need to find a good guild filled with competent people and you'll never have to tank for noobs again.

That's sort of victim blaming. OP did nothing wrong and was penalized. The "solution" should never be be that the person who was NOT exploiting has to stop using a legitimate in-game tool.
As for guilds... some days you ask for "any level any role" just to get a warm body for a random normal or normal trial you still can't find anyone.

Jaimeh · August 2019

They were probably a premade, but they could have been upfront about having no healer, and then if you still wanted to leave, they could kick you, so that you wouldn't have to contend with the timer. Perils of using the group finder.

Jeremy · August 2019

teladoy wrote: »

Today i been matched in Veteran dungeon with 3 guys where one of them should be the healer, but he was doing damage and not healing. Then me as a Tank stop this madness and said it. They al reponded "we know". Then i started a vote to kick him but they all declined it.

I'm a man of principles and for that reason i left. The thing is that i been penalized 10 minutes for do what is right.

This happen after 5 minutes of loggin... and this is another thing i have stuck in my throat about this game, where a bunch of developers can not think in any *** solution to try and catch this kind of disturbing behavior and for that reason, because they don't want to think and they prefeer to cut by the root and put everybody in the same bag, i will just close this game and go to that classic game to see if it can change my mode.

Sadly i'm pretty sure that this kind of solutions only affect in the majority to the good people more than the bad one.

I wish you all a good night.

Yeah this is an issue on this game. There are fake tanks as well - DPS who queue up for the shorter wait times who don't taunt and have paper thin defenses.

What I suggest is they add a separate report function where you can specifically identify players who fake their roles. That way when a player gets enough reports they can investigate and temporarily ban them from using the activity finder. That would help crack down on the practice I believe.

svendf · August 2019

kargen27 wrote: »

Can I have your stuff? This is an I quit thread after all.

And yeah there is a problem with people not playing the role they queue as but I don't see an easy solution so long as players are willing to tolerate it.
A possible solution would be to allow players to opt into a random group that is non traditional in make-up. Players that did that might end up with four DPS or whatever. It would provide at least some relief for DPS not wanting to wait in queue so long. That is the real problem, the queue times.

And I still would like your stuff.

Sure there is a solution. If these player´s know that there is an 95% chance they get kicked they will stop.

Dusk_Coven · August 2019

kargen27 wrote: »

A possible solution would be to allow players to opt into a random group that is non traditional in make-up. Players that did that might end up with four DPS or whatever. It would provide at least some relief for DPS not wanting to wait in queue so long. That is the real problem, the queue times.

This is why I suggested a "Carry" role for Group Finder. Some people can legitimately solo/carry easy dungeons. https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/488397/group-finder-new-role-carry

Dusk_Coven · August 2019

Jaimeh wrote: »

They were probably a premade, but they could have been upfront about having no healer

Which is still not legitimate because they are cutting ahead of a queue. What about all those people who are queued legitimately? It's the same as a fake tank queuing solo and then announcing at the start they are a fake and hoping they won't get kicked because the dps can carry.

They could have gone into the queue as 2 dps and gotten a tank and healer is decent time except they somehow needed to be a lame trio.

Jaimeh · August 2019

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

Jaimeh wrote: »

They were probably a premade, but they could have been upfront about having no healer

Which is still not legitimate because they are cutting ahead of a queue. What about all those people who are queued legitimately?
They could have gone into the queue as 2 dps and gotten a tank and healer is decent time except they somehow needed to be a lame trio.

I'm merely stating what was probably the case, you see a lot of that in the finder, less in vet queues, but it still happens.

ccmedaddy · August 2019

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

That's sort of victim blaming. OP did nothing wrong and was penalized. The "solution" should never be be that the person who was NOT exploiting has to stop using a legitimate in-game tool.
As for guilds... some days you ask for "any level any role" just to get a warm body for a random normal or normal trial you still can't find anyone.

"victim blaming" LMAO stop being a drama queen. I've been in OP's shoes many times in the past and I know how frustrating it is so I'm just suggesting to OP one way to avoid situations like this for the time being until ZOS (hopefully) implements some sort of a role check for pugs.

Dusk_Coven · August 2019

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

That's sort of victim blaming. OP did nothing wrong and was penalized. The "solution" should never be be that the person who was NOT exploiting has to stop using a legitimate in-game tool.
As for guilds... some days you ask for "any level any role" just to get a warm body for a random normal or normal trial you still can't find anyone.

"victim blaming" LMAO stop being a drama queen. I've been in OP's shoes many times in the past and I know how frustrating it is so I'm just suggesting to OP one way to avoid situations like this for the time being until ZOS (hopefully) implements some sort of a role check for pugs.

And when will ZOS implement that in a foolproof way? They'd be avoiding the queue forever. Not acceptable. I personally find this type of suggested solution unempathetic and insulting.
It's like telling storekeepers to stop selling stuff if they don't want to be shoplifted. "Just sell to your friends".
The more people make light of a situation, the less likely any sort of change or improvement will be implemented.

Have you considered the possibility that the reason lone dps have to wait so long is because people keep cutting ahead in the queue with fake roles?

kargen27 · August 2019

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

That's sort of victim blaming. OP did nothing wrong and was penalized. The "solution" should never be be that the person who was NOT exploiting has to stop using a legitimate in-game tool.
As for guilds... some days you ask for "any level any role" just to get a warm body for a random normal or normal trial you still can't find anyone.

"victim blaming" LMAO stop being a drama queen. I've been in OP's shoes many times in the past and I know how frustrating it is so I'm just suggesting to OP one way to avoid situations like this for the time being until ZOS (hopefully) implements some sort of a role check for pugs.

And when will ZOS implement that in a foolproof way? They'd be avoiding the queue forever. Not acceptable. I personally find this type of suggested solution unempathetic and insulting.
It's like telling storekeepers to stop selling stuff if they don't want to be shoplifted. "Just sell to your friends".
The more people make light of a situation, the less likely any sort of change or improvement will be implemented.

Have you considered the possibility that the reason lone dps have to wait so long is because people keep cutting ahead in the queue with fake roles?

Problem with that last question. If there were not a long queue for DPS there would never have been a reason to fake queue. They make the problem worse I am sure but they are a symptom of the problem not the cause.

bluebird · August 2019

Yeah... to be honest the dungeon queue penalty shouldn't exist. It punishes people who do nothing wrong, simply try to leave politely. Meanwhile you can kick an idiot who ruined bosspulls by purposefully not healing the party, or pulling exra mobs or whatever, and they're completely fine to queue up right after.

Leaving a dungeon shouldn't come with a timeout penalty at all. Getting kicked from a group also shouldn't come with a timeout penalty, but the reasons should be logged. I.e. There should be an 'afk/offline' kick, a 'wrong role' kick, and an 'anti-group behavior' kick. Trolls and jerks would accumulate the antisocial kick logs on their account and would then receive penalties, while disconnect kicks wouldn't be logged and counted against a player. And in either case people who just freely leave wouldn't be penalized.

(Storytime if you care to read them:)

Had a vICP pug last week, and the tank just stands still. We kindly ask him to move on, he refuses. He asks the dps to link their sets. They do, one has an overworld/crafted setup, the other a trial/crafted setup, both are fine. Both are cp300+ (tank is 420-ish and I'm a 750-ish healer). Yet the tank refused to move. He then asks to be kicked. Just like that... without even trying to do the dungeon. Instead of leaving, he stands around for 8 minutes quizzing people and then asks to be kicked.

Jesus Christ. We got a tank and finished the run obviously, 300cp is more than enough for the bosses if people do the mechanics.

Another vet pug, another story. We're in vet Darkshade Caverns 1. We have a cp170 dps, a 810 dps, a 500-ish tank and me. Group says hi and the 170 guy says, 'Hey all, this is my first vet

'. Immediately a votekick comes up with his name. I repeat, we were in Darkshade Caverns 1.

When it comes to first vets this is objectively a pretty good place to start. Anyhow, I reject the kick and the 810 tells me that I'm a noob who is running his girlfriend though a dungeon (first of all, lol, the noob guy was male, and I'm female, and this is the first time I saw him - I'm just not an elitist idiot who thinks you need a 810 BiS group to run freaking DSC). 810 dps then refuses to move from the entrance, doesn't help kill any of the mobs. Doesn't leave, just stays there doing nothing. We eventually kick it and get a non-brain-damaged player instead, around cp600. We complete the dungeon without any issues (obviously

).

Anyway... we need a better leave/kick system that logs various reasons for kicking so idiots can get penalties for being idiots, but other people who just dc or leave are free to do so without punishment.

Kelces · August 2019

It's unrealistic to expect the company to make this stop, even if there was a way to program certain conditions to join as a healer. The way you dealt with the situation makes obvious, what the problem really is: People have to change, simple as that and you showed how easy it can be just by choice. On the other hand you might argue, that's equally impossible, considering how stupid many people are.

So bottom line, let's deal with it and ignore them.

Edit:

bluebird wrote: »

Anyway... we need a better leave/kick system that logs various reasons for kicking so idiots can get penalties for being idiots, but other people who just dc or leave are free to do so without punishment.

Major backlash alarm!

bluebird · August 2019

Kelces wrote: »

bluebird wrote: »

Anyway... we need a better leave/kick system that logs various reasons for kicking so idiots can get penalties for being idiots, but other people who just dc or leave are free to do so without punishment.

Major backlash alarm!

I mean, I'd just like the game to find some way to penalize people who deserve punishment and not just apply a generic timer on everybody. If somebody leaves the dungeon, they shouldn't be penalized. Sometimes that's the only thing they can do to avoid toxic people, a purpusefully mis-role-checked group, whatever. Leaving doesn't hurt anybody. If somebody disconnects and gets kicked, they also shouldn't be penalized.

But if somebody is behaving like a garbage person, and does it several times in several groups, the marks against them should tally up so they can't just requeue and grief more groups. Those are the people that should be hit with a 'time-out'

Naftal · August 2019

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

ccmedaddy wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

That's sort of victim blaming. OP did nothing wrong and was penalized. The "solution" should never be be that the person who was NOT exploiting has to stop using a legitimate in-game tool.
As for guilds... some days you ask for "any level any role" just to get a warm body for a random normal or normal trial you still can't find anyone.

"victim blaming" LMAO stop being a drama queen. I've been in OP's shoes many times in the past and I know how frustrating it is so I'm just suggesting to OP one way to avoid situations like this for the time being until ZOS (hopefully) implements some sort of a role check for pugs.

Have you considered the possibility that the reason lone dps have to wait so long is because people keep cutting ahead in the queue with fake roles?

That makes no sense. Doesn't matter if the role is real or fake, more people queueing in the tank and healer roles means that more dps get to play too.

teladoy · August 2019

Kelces wrote: »

It's unrealistic to expect the company to make this stop, even if there was a way to program certain conditions to join as a healer. The way you dealt with the situation makes obvious, what the problem really is: People have to change, simple as that and you showed how easy it can be just by choice. On the other hand you might argue, that's equally impossible, considering how stupid many people are.

So bottom line, let's deal with it and ignore them.

Edit:

bluebird wrote: »

Anyway... we need a better leave/kick system that logs various reasons for kicking so idiots can get penalties for being idiots, but other people who just dc or leave are free to do so without punishment.

Major backlash alarm!

I think is not unrealistic, i think is about money and ressources.

Look i have a solution for you:

Leave a group has from now on has no penalty, but before doing it, you have to some how chose an option why did you left. Some kind of pop up windows or whatever.

If you leave too many groups in a short determined period of time, then someone should review your case and check if you are abusing of the system or if you are right.

If you leave your group after long periods of time then the counter resets and no one has to take the work to review your case.

I believe ZOS has logs of all out action inside of the game and they delete these logs after some time. In those logs they can follow all our actions, with which people we interact, what we write and everything. I'm pretty sure they can.

The problem is.... who really wants to do something like that? It is a very considerable amount of effort and resources. But this was only an idea.

MLGProPlayer · August 2019

They need to create an optional 4x DD queue. I almost always run 4x DD for pledges anyway.

Queue times would be instant, and you'd see an end to fake tanks/healers.

Ackwalan · August 2019

ZOS did think of a way to fix that. You can start a vote kick, and if the vote fails, you can leave.

grkkll · August 2019

was he just damaging or laying down HoTs and buffs and debuffs and damaging? When the going is easy, e.g. for mobs there's nothing wrong with switching to damage mode, especially in non DLC vets, in fact if I'm playing as DD or Tank I expect a healer to contribute damage in those situations. I thought standard healer build was resto front bar shock back bar. You say your principles meant you left but that could just be construed as a big huff. I think the game can be taken too seriously at times, it is just a game after all

zvavi · August 2019

Guys, do not worry, in 2 months we get a revamp on the group finder, and maybe, maybe if we are lucky and zos will use suggestions for a while, we will have options to chose to queue for not only 1 t 1 h and 2 dd groups, but also for 1t 3dd, 1h 3dd and 4dd groups.

Edit:
And no, the stupid "carry" role idea is stupid, because you will always end up replacing the tank, and a tankless group for 1 inexperienced additional person that panic if the boss is on him/her, is not a f***ing solution.

Beardimus · August 2019

teladoy wrote: »

Today i been matched in Veteran dungeon with 3 guys where one of them should be the healer, but he was doing damage and not healing. Then me as a Tank stop this madness and said it. They al reponded "we know". Then i started a vote to kick him but they all declined it.

I'm a man of principles and for that reason i left. The thing is that i been penalized 10 minutes for do what is right.

This happen after 5 minutes of loggin... and this is another thing i have stuck in my throat about this game, where a bunch of developers can not think in any *** solution to try and catch this kind of disturbing behavior and for that reason, because they don't want to think and they prefeer to cut by the root and put everybody in the same bag, i will just close this game and go to that classic game to see if it can change my mode.

Sadly i'm pretty sure that this kind of solutions only affect in the majority to the good people more than the bad one.

I wish you all a good night.

You omitted the part where you told us if it caused you a problem? I assume it did? Or pure principle?

I have a sorc healer, can put out about 25k dps unbuffed while still having a heal toolkit. The amount of times I've been PUGed with light attack bow spammers with <10k DPS so i just get cracking. I've been booted too 'on principle' despite no one dying, and us having a better chance of clearing the content....

Who's good and bad in those situations??

Way i see it is folks can do what they want, if it doesn't impact others severely