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Here is why the guild trader system will always be broken...

Rittings
Rittings
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This isn't a complaint, or just an unjustifiable rant on the guild trader system. I actually like the idea of traders and guilds getting spots etc... the theory and the role play of it, is pretty great... in theory.

However... I'm going to drop this here... I'm in several trade guilds on a couple of accounts. And this week I tracked the sales of a trader down to the last transaction before trader flip. The guild was in a prominent city trader spot (Wayrest/Elden Root/Raw'lkha/Mournhold). I'm not 100% savvy on what those traders currently go for each week - but I sincerely hope those on PS4 NA server who run those, read this... they'll realize quickly how much wasted effort goes into getting them.

The guild in question GROSSED - 21,368,507 gold for the week (Sunday to Sunday). Every transaction from trader flip to trader flip. Now, that's not the taxes the guild took - that's the TOTAL GROSS AMOUNT of sales. I think we all know that those traders do not come cheap, and they are funded via auctions, raffles, donations and weekly dues. That guild would have been better dividing up what they were about to pay for the trader and giving it to the members. Each member would be far better off, and they'd still have their wares to sell in zone chat.

Guild traders just aren't viable for making money for most... maybe 1 or 2 members from each guild will make a nice amount of profit - but they are propped up by the rest of the guild to help them make it. Sounds a little too close to real life if you ask me lol.

I don't know what the answer is - but I hope someone pays attention to this and we come up with a solution for a fairer, and more productive, trade system in the game :)
  • Sanctum74
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    So are you suggesting that guilds refund everyone's weekly dues, dissolve the guild, and then spend hours a day spamming items in zone chat? Sorry, but I don't think that's a viable solution.

    There's definitely more than 1-2 people making profits in guild traders or they wouldn't have hundreds of members paying $10-$15k a month.

    Just from selling mats, recipes, etc from doing daily writs you can easily make a few 100k a week. If you don't like guilds or think you are entitled to a free one then you still have zone chat to sell.

    Trading guilds have gotten expensive, but it's worth it to be at a good location and sell your items quickly without having to spend hours a day in chat. Could you imagine what chat would be like if everyone sold there?

  • Rittings
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    You didn't read what I put... I said from the get go I liked the idea of the system, but the implementation and efficiency is just not viable from a financial point of view.

    Yes, you can make a lot of money from doing writs etc - and so therefore dues are easy to pay. Again, I'm not complaining about that - in fact, not complaining about anything (for a change lol) I'm merely making an observation, and quite a worrying one at that.

    Let's say I make 100k per week from writs (actually, I make about 80k per day from writs lol)... but I see that 15k per week for a trader is chump change for me. So I pay 15k dues. As do the other 300 paying members. That's 4.5 million and we all know that doesn't even come close to winning the guild trader in the major cities. Therefore, what commences are 50/50s, raffles and big donations.... it's a lot of work and co-ordination to get a trader spot that matters. Then, when you get that spot, like I said, and you get 21 million GROSS SALES ... then you've wasted your time... and gold.

    I'm betting if you spoke to most people in a trade guild you'd find maybe the top 5% making a decent amount... the others are maybe just clearing a profit (thus practically giving their wares to the guild) and the rest are breaking even or, more likely, making a loss each week.... but they pay their dues nonetheless to remain (just in case they have a good farming week).

    So... the 5% are reliant on those other 95% to "prop up" their position. Just like real life I guess. But if we just wised up to the fact that this is happening, I think we'd realize a solution was needed.

    I make a nice profit - but I hate to think that it comes from the fact that others are paying for my right to do so. I'm sure there is a solution - but not so sure as to what it might be (just yet).
  • SirAndy
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    Rittings wrote: »
    Then, when you get that spot, like I said, and you get 21 million GROSS SALES

    Gross sales numbers mean nothing in this context.
    Only a tiny fraction of that goes back to the guild, most of it disappears in the black hole of gold sinks.

    The only way for a guild to "make" money is by charging more in membership dues than it costs them to secure a trader or fund raising events like raffles.

    Even for the large trading guilds, sales income never ever comes close to covering the trader bid let alone make any money.
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  • VaranisArano
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    I'm a little confused. Are you complaining that the guild's bid exceeds their gross sales? Or that the guild bid exceeds their 3.5% guild tax?

    No matter how much the guild's members sell, the guild only ever gets 3.5% of that in sales taxes. That's the only profit the guild makes, unless they have raffles, donations, auctions, or fees. ZOS gets another 3.5%, and players get the rest. That's a pretty hefty profit for players compared to what guilds get without additional means of income.

    So unless the guild bid exceeds what players are earning for that week in gross sales, the guild isn't draining profit from its players. Those extra fees are paid out of the profits players make fron selling. (I'd be very surprised if the guild was really bidding more than their gross sales, since that's an obviously terrible business decision.)

    But what about the players who barely sell more than the fee requirements? They barely see any profit, right?

    To be perfectly frank, if the players arent making a profit after they pay their raffle/fee, they ought to find a guild with requirements better suited to their playstyle. I'm a firm believer that you shop around for guilds that fit you. If you can't pay 15k a week in dues or whateber your weekly fee is, find a guild that fits what you can pay given what you sell in a week. Be realistic about it. If you arent an active player or don't have much to sell, you probably won't see much profit if you join a busy trading guild in a city with high fees. Pick a smaller, less competitive trading guild who's okay if you have slow, but steady sales.


    There's also the PC/Console difference to consider here. PC Guilds can afford to let players make a minimum "sales requirement" each week because they have addons that can track that information. Console guilds must rely on raffles, auctions, donations, and fees because they lack such accounting add-ons.
  • Rittings
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    I'm saying, the guild bids... in general exceed the GROSS SALES... I don't know how I can make it clearer - i've capitlized it each time... lol
  • VaranisArano
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    Rittings wrote: »
    I'm saying, the guild bids... in general exceed the GROSS SALES... I don't know how I can make it clearer - i've capitlized it each time... lol

    Seriously?

    A guild that sells 21 million a week bids more than 21 million on a trader?

    How is that guild even staying open? Unless they've got massive savings they are dipping into...and even then that's just not feasible long term.

    That's NOT the case in any of the trading guilds I've been in on PC/NA. Guild bids exceed the guild sales tax (3.5% of the gross sales), yes, but not the gross sales from members. Not even close. In the guild where I was an officer, our bid for a capital city trader was much lower than our gross sales. (Our requirements were 25k in sales or 5k raffle tickets, plus we had an auction to make up the trader bid.)

    It is not normal for guilds to bid more for a trader than their players sell in a week, week after week. You just can't sustain that. It requires either savings you are willing to dip into or for every player to plow ALL their profit back into the guild...and the latter isnt gonna happen. Players don't do that.
  • vivisectvib16_ESO
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    How are you making 80k a day doing writs?
    So through endless twilights I dreamed and waited, though I knew not what I waited for.
  • Rittings
    Rittings
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    Rittings wrote: »
    I'm saying, the guild bids... in general exceed the GROSS SALES... I don't know how I can make it clearer - i've capitlized it each time... lol

    Seriously?

    A guild that sells 21 million a week bids more than 21 million on a trader?

    How is that guild even staying open? Unless they've got massive savings they are dipping into...and even then that's just not feasible long term.

    That's NOT the case in any of the trading guilds I've been in on PC/NA. Guild bids exceed the guild sales tax (3.5% of the gross sales), yes, but not the gross sales from members. Not even close. In the guild where I was an officer, our bid for a capital city trader was much lower than our gross sales. (Our requirements were 25k in sales or 5k raffle tickets, plus we had an auction to make up the trader bid.)

    It is not normal for guilds to bid more for a trader than their players sell in a week, week after week. You just can't sustain that. It requires either savings you are willing to dip into or for every player to plow ALL their profit back into the guild...and the latter isnt gonna happen. Players don't do that.

    Raffles, auctions and donations.

    I'm going to watching a different trading guild this week. Trust me, these aren't small PS4 NA server guidls. These are MASSIVE traders that have been around a long time with top city spots. That's kind of my point. They simply aren't grossing enough to even warrant the price of the traders - and I bet they don't even realize it yet.
  • Rittings
    Rittings
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    How are you making 80k a day doing writs?

    18 characters - all doing all the writs.

    664g per writ hand-in x 7 writs in total = 4.6k
    18 x 4.6k = 82.8k
  • Dont_do_drugs
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    Rittings wrote: »
    You didn't read what I put... I said from the get go I liked the idea of the system, but the implementation and efficiency is just not viable from a financial point of view.

    Yes, you can make a lot of money from doing writs etc - and so therefore dues are easy to pay. Again, I'm not complaining about that - in fact, not complaining about anything (for a change lol) I'm merely making an observation, and quite a worrying one at that.

    Let's say I make 100k per week from writs (actually, I make about 80k per day from writs lol)... but I see that 15k per week for a trader is chump change for me. So I pay 15k dues. As do the other 300 paying members. That's 4.5 million and we all know that doesn't even come close to winning the guild trader in the major cities. Therefore, what commences are 50/50s, raffles and big donations.... it's a lot of work and co-ordination to get a trader spot that matters. Then, when you get that spot, like I said, and you get 21 million GROSS SALES ... then you've wasted your time... and gold.

    I'm betting if you spoke to most people in a trade guild you'd find maybe the top 5% making a decent amount... the others are maybe just clearing a profit (thus practically giving their wares to the guild) and the rest are breaking even or, more likely, making a loss each week.... but they pay their dues nonetheless to remain (just in case they have a good farming week).

    So... the 5% are reliant on those other 95% to "prop up" their position. Just like real life I guess. But if we just wised up to the fact that this is happening, I think we'd realize a solution was needed.

    I make a nice profit - but I hate to think that it comes from the fact that others are paying for my right to do so. I'm sure there is a solution - but not so sure as to what it might be (just yet).

    then u're in the wrong guild basically. tho talking from a pcs perspective. hear a lot of weird and sick stuff from consoles, and its hard to imagine, that consoles guilds are doing well, having good sales and all. but erm....if a guild leeches more gold from their members than they earn themselves then u need to go to a guild with lower requirements or the guild has to check, wether its on the right spot and shouldnt scale it a bit down for their abilities.

    well...but what you are thinking of is a bad solution. the guilds are supposed to be a goldsink. through bidding and taxes gold sinks away from the game.


    tho 21m for a massive guild on that platform sounds ridiculous. maybe u calculated something wrong. i mean even without ur addons, is ur economy that dead that ur guilds sells only worth 21m? pc eus top guilds do 200m +
    Edited by Dont_do_drugs on August 27, 2019 8:22AM

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  • Rittings
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    I'll give a 5% error either direction for my keypad skills - but nope, other than that - my calculations are pretty accurate. I'm not going to name and shame the guild in question, but to say that they ARE a long standing trade guild and ALWAYS have top spots.

    My current calculations for another massive guild on PS4 NA are seemingly following the same pattern. I run a smaller guild myself, and we have a smaller trader - and ours actually ran last week at a loss!! We paid 18% more for the trader than the total gross sales of all our members. I myself made a profit from my sales, but it was barely anything to speak of. I know one of our members sold some chromium platings and so they made a huge profit (we are a free trader that relies on donations only btw).

    So I know it's not just the top, but the bottom guilds also, that are making no money... the trader system is just a gold sink in it's entirety... there is a limited amount of gold in circulation for sure, and therefore it's only to be expected that many will make a loss from their dues, donations and raffle tickets... leaving the cream to profit from them.

    Console players defintely miss the benefits of the add-ons - and maybe that's why this has gone on for so long.
  • Harrdarrzarr
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    one guild mismanaging itself cannot be an example. Or rather, they can't be called representative to show flaws in a system.
    Edited by Harrdarrzarr on August 27, 2019 1:39PM
  • VaranisArano
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    Rittings wrote: »
    Rittings wrote: »
    I'm saying, the guild bids... in general exceed the GROSS SALES... I don't know how I can make it clearer - i've capitlized it each time... lol

    Seriously?

    A guild that sells 21 million a week bids more than 21 million on a trader?

    How is that guild even staying open? Unless they've got massive savings they are dipping into...and even then that's just not feasible long term.

    That's NOT the case in any of the trading guilds I've been in on PC/NA. Guild bids exceed the guild sales tax (3.5% of the gross sales), yes, but not the gross sales from members. Not even close. In the guild where I was an officer, our bid for a capital city trader was much lower than our gross sales. (Our requirements were 25k in sales or 5k raffle tickets, plus we had an auction to make up the trader bid.)

    It is not normal for guilds to bid more for a trader than their players sell in a week, week after week. You just can't sustain that. It requires either savings you are willing to dip into or for every player to plow ALL their profit back into the guild...and the latter isnt gonna happen. Players don't do that.

    Raffles, auctions and donations.

    I'm going to watching a different trading guild this week. Trust me, these aren't small PS4 NA server guidls. These are MASSIVE traders that have been around a long time with top city spots. That's kind of my point. They simply aren't grossing enough to even warrant the price of the traders - and I bet they don't even realize it yet.

    From the point of view of a PC/NA player who's been in several large trading guilds...

    This all just seems really odd!

    The guilds I've been in don't overbid their gross sales. The players in the guilds I've been in don't plow their profits back into their guilds to that extent either, especially when you consider that raffles have to pay for their own gold prizes.

    I mean, in the case of your 21 million gross sales guild, they get 735,000 from guild tax, and 7,500,000 gold from fees if we assume that all 500 players pay 15k. That's a seed bid of 8 million.

    By that math, the guild has to pull in another 13 million from it's players! At least that much, since auction items are usually donated and the raffle has to pay for its own prizes. (More likely, pulls in some from players and mostly from its savings.)

    Personally, we never pulled in that much gold from our players period, much less the amount that would have been needed to top our gross sales.

    I don't really see how guilds can keep operating that close to their gross sales or even at a loss and stay successful over time. That's not really something we see as much of on PC, where the large bids usually come from traders with high profits that fuel their high sales requirements. The exception is guilds trying to break into a better location - and even there they might accept a loss on a bid in hopes of recouping the loss with profits, and they won't keep doing it over time.


    In short, that might be how traders operate on console, but that has not been my experience on PC.
  • Dont_do_drugs
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    Rittings wrote: »
    I'll give a 5% error either direction for my keypad skills - but nope, other than that - my calculations are pretty accurate. I'm not going to name and shame the guild in question, but to say that they ARE a long standing trade guild and ALWAYS have top spots.

    My current calculations for another massive guild on PS4 NA are seemingly following the same pattern. I run a smaller guild myself, and we have a smaller trader - and ours actually ran last week at a loss!! We paid 18% more for the trader than the total gross sales of all our members. I myself made a profit from my sales, but it was barely anything to speak of. I know one of our members sold some chromium platings and so they made a huge profit (we are a free trader that relies on donations only btw).

    So I know it's not just the top, but the bottom guilds also, that are making no money... the trader system is just a gold sink in it's entirety... there is a limited amount of gold in circulation for sure, and therefore it's only to be expected that many will make a loss from their dues, donations and raffle tickets... leaving the cream to profit from them.

    Console players defintely miss the benefits of the add-ons - and maybe that's why this has gone on for so long.

    most likely, because thats definitely completely wrong and sick.


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  • TheBeastlyDude
    TheBeastlyDude
    Soul Shriven
    1. If you are not benefiting from guild traders, it's likely because you're not selling what people want. Selling Green Undertaker's Rings are not going to pay for your weekly dues.

    2. If you want to make money, there are guilds out there who are willing to help you, if you're willing to put in the work for yourself.

    3. A majority of those in paid guilds have no business selling in guild traders in the first place. I know it sounds harsh but unless you're making 100K a week in the trader, you're giving the guild more than 10% of your earnings.

    4. Join a free guild trader. Those guilds who have a trader each week in major towns are in for a surprise with the new update. Those bigger guilds who lose out on their spot will no longer be able to buy a premium spot again. I guarantee a lot of players are not going to be happy paying 10k+ dues for a trader in Gold Coast. If you're in a free guild and don't win, no fees out of your wallet.
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