Zenimax/ZOS, we have to talk about the $15/month subscription...(Letter to the Developers)

JusticeForJilarga · August 2019

RoyalFruitBat wrote: »

Streega wrote: »

You forgot to add three words: "in my opinion"...

Wasn’t that implied? I mean, of course it’s his/her opinion unless he/she is explicitly quoting someone else. Just saying.

They was writing it as facts. This one knows this. "Zenimax/ZOS, your subscription is not worth $15/month. It can be, but it's not.." They directly said it as a fact not an opinion. This one disagrees with it.

StormeReigns · August 2019

GQManOfTheYear wrote: »

In a few days, a lot of people will resubscribe for the Classic version.

So far on recent beta people are getting what they been begging for, a blast from the past:

Warriors are being forced to be the only Tanks again in all group content, and the few that are DPSing must have at least full blue sets to not get kicked.

Paladins and Druids forced to be Healers yet again.

Mages only viability in Dungeons and Raids forced into Fire and Food / Teleport Bots
Warlocks forced into spamming only Elemental Curse and providing Teleport / Candy / Soul Stones in Raids (long as they have 200+ shards available), while keeping only imp out, not for DPS gain, but for Blood Pact boost. Despite Succ having a strong CC, and Puppy being a beast against magic mobs (normal to raid bosses, cant use anything other than imp or get the boot, if they don't boot ya after all the ports you gave and needing to farm up more shards again - turning a 2 hr run into a 4hr run YAY!)

Priests now only allowed to use holy and be healers, cause shadow and disp. got gutted into a worse state.

Rogue and Hunters, CC masters forced to focus solely on their ability to CC and not their burst damage.

Shamans are the only class so far allowed to utilize all three specs, but that appears to be changing here soon where groups have been kicking if the shaman isn't Elemental or Resto. If the shaman is Enhance, they are (so far) required to be in full epics for standard dungeon runs.

Careful for what you wish for. You just might get it.

Vlad9425 · August 2019

It’s definitely worth it for all the perks it gives you, the only valid argument for it not being worth it is the sad state of the game’s performance and some of the stupid balancing changes. I can see many people cancelling their sub if things don’t improve soon.

NewBlacksmurf · August 2019

I want to comment as I casually play this still but have gone back to play Classic WoW.
*I don't think this game should mirror WoW or change at this time.

1. While I see value in paying $15/month for WoW, I do not and would not consider a monthly requirement for this game.
2. Gathering in common places, is a result of how each game is designed and the economy/DLC restrictions

-I firmly believe this game does not provide an experience that fits a required subscription.
-I think there is a lot of evidence that confirms the current ESP Plus optional subscription is the best model.
-DLC and Chapters are staged in ways that balance benefits of each type of customer access model
-Gathering in common places...unlike WoW..this game operates in a loose access where most towns and DLC remain viable while WoW does not.

kargen27 · August 2019

The subscription price is a bargain compared to other forms of entertainment. I enjoy the game and would pay the subscription even with no extras.

nafensoriel · August 2019

Jayman1000 wrote: »

/snip

ESO+ is a membership that you pay for, isn't that what a subscription is? When you pay to get some time limited access to exclusive resources?

@JusticeForJilarga as well.

No. By technical definition, it is an upgrade service. A subscription requires you get something exclusively for paying, like a newspaper. With ESO you pay for the item you want upfront and then can choose to pay for an upgrade package should you choose. Not paying does not revoke access to the main purchase and you are allowed to ala cart the service any time you wish with no penalty.

Think about it like a cruise ship. Once you've paid your ticket(bought ESO) you get your stateroom. You can then purchase "upgrades" like unlimited alcohol packages, spa packages, or even exclusive areas.

This is why, unlike a game subscription, people who pay for ESO+ get a little more demanding about what quality they get from it. If everyone got the crafting bag most ESO+ subscribers would drop from the service as it is no longer providing its value. At no time, however, do you lose access to the game which is how it differentiates itself from a subscription such as WoWs model. Forcing a subscription on ESO would, from history, drastically cut the player base numbers and put an extreme amount of stress on the development team since it has been pretty conclusively proven to be a lower and far riskier source of revenue than B2P and paid content drops. If you have a "bad patch" with a subscription you can suddenly go from making money to closed. With B2P, Paid content, and upgrade services you have a much more dependable stream to overcome mistakes or user shifts that naturally occur.

Subscriptions kill games folks. No one wants them back from the financial point of view. They make way less money, are way harder to sell to investors and put you at a huge risk whenever you inevitably *** up.

xbangax · August 2019

nafensoriel wrote: »

Jayman1000 wrote: »

/snip

ESO+ is a membership that you pay for, isn't that what a subscription is? When you pay to get some time limited access to exclusive resources?

@JusticeForJilarga as well.

No. By technical definition, it is an upgrade service. A subscription requires you get something exclusively for paying, like a newspaper. With ESO you pay for the item you want upfront and then can choose to pay for an upgrade package should you choose. Not paying does not revoke access to the main purchase and you are allowed to ala cart the service any time you wish with no penalty.

Think about it like a cruise ship. Once you've paid your ticket(bought ESO) you get your stateroom. You can then purchase "upgrades" like unlimited alcohol packages, spa packages, or even exclusive areas.

This is why, unlike a game subscription, people who pay for ESO+ get a little more demanding about what quality they get from it. If everyone got the crafting bag most ESO+ subscribers would drop from the service as it is no longer providing its value. At no time, however, do you lose access to the game which is how it differentiates itself from a subscription such as WoWs model. Forcing a subscription on ESO would, from history, drastically cut the player base numbers and put an extreme amount of stress on the development team since it has been pretty conclusively proven to be a lower and far riskier source of revenue than B2P and paid content drops. If you have a "bad patch" with a subscription you can suddenly go from making money to closed. With B2P, Paid content, and upgrade services you have a much more dependable stream to overcome mistakes or user shifts that naturally occur.

Subscriptions kill games folks. No one wants them back from the financial point of view. They make way less money, are way harder to sell to investors and put you at a huge risk whenever you inevitably *** up.

sub·scrip·tion

the action of making or agreeing to make an advance payment in order to receive or participate in something.

you even called people who pay for eso+ subscribers lol

JusticeForJilarga · August 2019

xbangax wrote: »

nafensoriel wrote: »

Jayman1000 wrote: »

/snip

ESO+ is a membership that you pay for, isn't that what a subscription is? When you pay to get some time limited access to exclusive resources?

@JusticeForJilarga as well.

No. By technical definition, it is an upgrade service. A subscription requires you get something exclusively for paying, like a newspaper. With ESO you pay for the item you want upfront and then can choose to pay for an upgrade package should you choose. Not paying does not revoke access to the main purchase and you are allowed to ala cart the service any time you wish with no penalty.

Think about it like a cruise ship. Once you've paid your ticket(bought ESO) you get your stateroom. You can then purchase "upgrades" like unlimited alcohol packages, spa packages, or even exclusive areas.

This is why, unlike a game subscription, people who pay for ESO+ get a little more demanding about what quality they get from it. If everyone got the crafting bag most ESO+ subscribers would drop from the service as it is no longer providing its value. At no time, however, do you lose access to the game which is how it differentiates itself from a subscription such as WoWs model. Forcing a subscription on ESO would, from history, drastically cut the player base numbers and put an extreme amount of stress on the development team since it has been pretty conclusively proven to be a lower and far riskier source of revenue than B2P and paid content drops. If you have a "bad patch" with a subscription you can suddenly go from making money to closed. With B2P, Paid content, and upgrade services you have a much more dependable stream to overcome mistakes or user shifts that naturally occur.

Subscriptions kill games folks. No one wants them back from the financial point of view. They make way less money, are way harder to sell to investors and put you at a huge risk whenever you inevitably *** up.

sub·scrip·tion

the action of making or agreeing to make an advance payment in order to receive or participate in something.

you even called people who pay for eso+ subscribers lol

This one thinks they have a point.

x48rph · August 2019

ATomiX69 wrote: »

HappyLittleTree wrote: »

Monthly crowns

eso plus deals

free stuff (even if they are just statuettes)

extra exp

faster research

unlimited crafting material space

extra bank space

costume dying

double housing space

double transmutation crystals

access to all dlc (not chapter)

It's just not worth it ZENIMAX get your S+*§ together (!)

Yeah all those features are nice and all, but most people I know, literally only sub for the craft-bag and maybe double bank-space.
Free crowns, meh who cares, you can just buy everything with gold for crowns these days.

ESO+ deals is a stupid point to make, you sub so you can spend even more money on the crown store by ZOS luring you in with an "ESO+ exclusive" offer.

The free stuff you get is stuff that wouldnt sell on the crown store, but they already had the model so they might as well give free handouts.

10% XP, gold, is meh, not worth.

Faster research, once you finish research you dont benefit from it anymore, last trait is always same duration no matter if ESO+ or not, not worth.

Costume dying, yeah most ppl use the outfit system tho, no reason to sub long term, once you dye your costume its dyed, not worth.

Housing space, Im neutral on that one, not really much of a housing guy, but I guess it comes in handy for people who are into that kind of stuff.

Double transmute gems, I got like hundreds of 50-gem geodes which I can open whenever I need a transmute, not worth.

Access to all DLC, if you clump together ~5 mil gold (which you can make in a week if you try a bit) you can literally buy all DLCs via crown for gold, so not really a valid point either for longer term players which dont wanna rely on a sub to access dlc zones/content.

Overall I think sub is really worth it if youre a new player which is just trying the game and wants to experience most of the content in a short period of time, but for me It definitly isnt.
And as a PC-EU player it isnt subject to change anytime soon.

Except in order to trade gold for crowns someone still has to buy the crowns in the first place. And not everyone wants to spend their time grinding for gold to pay for it. ESO+ give you more crowns for $15 then the actual $15 crown pack does and along with it, all the other perks

Tandor · August 2019

nafensoriel wrote: »

Jayman1000 wrote: »

/snip

ESO+ is a membership that you pay for, isn't that what a subscription is? When you pay to get some time limited access to exclusive resources?

@JusticeForJilarga as well.

No. By technical definition, it is an upgrade service. A subscription requires you get something exclusively for paying, like a newspaper. With ESO you pay for the item you want upfront and then can choose to pay for an upgrade package should you choose. Not paying does not revoke access to the main purchase and you are allowed to ala cart the service any time you wish with no penalty.

Think about it like a cruise ship. Once you've paid your ticket(bought ESO) you get your stateroom. You can then purchase "upgrades" like unlimited alcohol packages, spa packages, or even exclusive areas.

This is why, unlike a game subscription, people who pay for ESO+ get a little more demanding about what quality they get from it. If everyone got the crafting bag most ESO+ subscribers would drop from the service as it is no longer providing its value. At no time, however, do you lose access to the game which is how it differentiates itself from a subscription such as WoWs model. Forcing a subscription on ESO would, from history, drastically cut the player base numbers and put an extreme amount of stress on the development team since it has been pretty conclusively proven to be a lower and far riskier source of revenue than B2P and paid content drops. If you have a "bad patch" with a subscription you can suddenly go from making money to closed. With B2P, Paid content, and upgrade services you have a much more dependable stream to overcome mistakes or user shifts that naturally occur.

Subscriptions kill games folks. No one wants them back from the financial point of view. They make way less money, are way harder to sell to investors and put you at a huge risk whenever you inevitably *** up.

Nonsense.

Terrible analogy, by the way. There's nothing exclusive about getting a newspaper through a subscription. You can pick up the same newspaper every day at a shop. Besides which, you do get things exclusively through ESO+ so even by your analysis it qualifies as a subscription.

You seem to be confused between mandatory subscriptions and optional subscriptions. I agree that a lot of gamers these days don't want mandatory subscriptions, the problem is that they don't like the alternative business models on offer and really only want to get everything in their games for nothing.

You're also wrong on subscriptions not suiting investors. On the contrary, subscriptions provide the one thing that investors like, namely a fixed income. You and I might pay the same amount to a developer each year, but if you pay infrequently and on a random basis and I pay on a fixed annual subscription, guess which suits the investor better?

worrallj · August 2019

I disagree with any proposal to increase the prominence of the cash shop 110%. I want less not more nickel and diming where the game constantly tries to get at your wallet by dangling little shinies in front of your face.

Instead, give subscribers priority access to server resources. Server performance it's what's upsetting the community. Good performance is what everyone wants, way more than yet another stupid indrik skin. Server access is also the only physical service ZOS is actually providing that we're actually paying for (all the other "perks" are just electrons that are nearly 0 cost to produce and just give the game a cheap p2w vibe imo, aside from expansions/dlc which require substantial development). Make it explicit and drop all the stupid cash grab stuff that makes the game feel like a tourist shop where people buy digital junk. Charge for the actual product not the digital ornaments you dangle on it.

Kalante · August 2019

As vet player that has done all dlc's and trials who doesn't care about dyes, costumes, lame free stuff, or housing. I have zero reason or even want to buy eso+ SPECIALLY after how terrible this game performance is, Im a gamer Im not here to waste my time in how my character looks or show off whatever I got from clown crates.

The craft bag and bank space is not worth it either. We all know MMO's do this because it's just a cheap way to make people into buying it because how convoluted the loot pool grows through out each dlc or chapter which reinforces the desire for a craft bag even more. It''s all physiological garbage that I was able to break free from. After 7 months of no eso+ Ive learned to live without it. Either way my passion for this game is gone so that is also part of it. I could care less.

Grandma · August 2019

there's just.. so much wrong with this, lol.

and no, don't flatter yourself, nobody's triggered/enraged/screaming like you apparently anticipated. We're just laughing.

Go back to wow classic for a month and let me know how it is.

nafensoriel · August 2019

xbangax wrote: »

sub·scrip·tion

the action of making or agreeing to make an advance payment in order to receive or participate in something.

you even called people who pay for eso+ subscribers lol

@Tandor
Yes, change your definition. You want to imply that a standard MMO subscription like WoW or EVEs old models is identical to an upgraded service subscription. Subscriptions are simple contracts and as such there are many types of them.

If you want to argue the pros and cons of ESO+ that you can subscribe to then go for it. There are thousands of threads on this forum discussing the same thing.

If you want to imply that ESO+ is a game subscription then you really don't have a leg to stand on.

To explain.
A game subscription like you are requesting grants access to a product. ESO is B2P. No repeated payments are required to access.
ESO+ is an upgraded service agreement for cost. ESO+ cannot exist without the primary product and does not provide anything not included by standard purchasing(you can argue the craft bag but functionally its just storage and you get storage for free).

Just like a cruise ship I mentioned earlier you cannot buy the upgrade without owning the product. It doesn't matter if the upgrade can be subscribed to it is not the subscription you are requesting. ESO+ cannot exist without ownership and has no bearing on the operation by the user of the product.

Now to also point out the absolute hilariously impossibility of converting an established B2P model to subscription-based pay for access model. How exactly do you think ZOS does that? Force all players currently playing for free to lose access or pay for a product they already purchased again? Do you seriously expect any court anywhere would let that fly?

The entire concept is absurd. It was absurd when it was abandoned as a model for business for reasons I already stated. Subscriptions to access games are dead. The few who exist only do so because they were made before modern monetization happened. Get over it and move on.

Aurie · August 2019

Four pages is too much to wade through.

So I'll say just this:

ESO+ is extraordinarily good value for money.

All the perks/benefits that I'm sure have been talked about over nearly 100 posts....and all that for the price of a couple of coffees a week.

Monsieur · August 2019

For me, the sub was worth it when the game was playable. Hopefully it returns to that state at some point in the next decade, but who knows!

jazsper77 · August 2019

Grandma wrote: »

there's just.. so much wrong with this, lol.

and no, don't flatter yourself, nobody's triggered/enraged/screaming like you apparently anticipated. We're just laughing.

Go back to wow classic for a month and let me know how it is.

Oh look it’s the White Knight back defending ZOS again. Truly must have ZERO going for ya if all you have is ESO. What’s that saying about putting lipstick on a pig again ?

idk · August 2019

Wolfpaw wrote: »

Flubbles wrote: »

They don't care. Why would they change their source of income when people still buy into it. It's a business and for them profits mean everything not the game or their consumers. Their past and present practices prove this. LOL

Yup.

ZOS 45m/ annual revenue
Zenimax Media 1/2bil annual revenue

@Wolfpaw what your sources for this? Interested in seeing it linked.

zaria · August 2019

Streega wrote: »

You forgot to add three words: "in my opinion". Seriously, why don't you go back to WoW...

Who movie is that from? Downloaded for future use
And an toast from this one

baratron · August 2019

I don't know about you, but where I live (London), cinema tickets are £10 for a student with a student card, or £12.50 for an adult. An average movie is 2 hours.

Going out to see a band? Good luck. Tickets for relatively unknown bands might be £6-10, tickets for well-known bands start at £20 and go up from there. Tickets for Bullet For My Valentine in November 2018 were £37 each. Big arena events start at £60 per person and go upwards from there. Tickets for Avenged Sevenfold supported by Disturbed in January 2017 were £90 each.

You might say "I can't afford to go out". OK, well, the video game magazine I subscribe to is £2.50 a month for digital or £4.50 a month for physical. How long does it take to read a magazine?

A Netflix account is £5.99 per month for basic (no HD, one device only), £6.99 for standard (High Definition when available, watch on 2 devices at the same time) and £11.99 per month for premium (HD and Ultra HD, watch on 4 devices at the same time).

My ESO Plus membership is the exact same cost as Netflix. £6.99 a month, because I buy 6 months at a time. I spend a minimum of 40 hours a month playing ESO.

I'm sick of people saying that ESO Plus is too expensive. Maybe it's too expensive for you, I don't know your budget. But it compares extremely favourably to other forms of entertainment.

Wolfpaw · August 2019

idk wrote: »

Wolfpaw wrote: »

Flubbles wrote: »

They don't care. Why would they change their source of income when people still buy into it. It's a business and for them profits mean everything not the game or their consumers. Their past and present practices prove this. LOL

Yup.

ZOS 45m/ annual revenue
Zenimax Media 1/2bil annual revenue

@Wolfpaw what your sources for this? Interested in seeing it linked.

Google it, or I can link later, not going to be connected in a moment*. Not a secret, easy fine.

Aurie · August 2019

jazsper77 wrote: »

Grandma wrote: »

there's just.. so much wrong with this, lol.

and no, don't flatter yourself, nobody's triggered/enraged/screaming like you apparently anticipated. We're just laughing.

Go back to wow classic for a month and let me know how it is.

Oh look it’s the White Knight back defending ZOS again. Truly must have ZERO going for ya if all you have is ESO. What’s that saying about putting lipstick on a pig again ?

How amazingly rude. Time @ZOS stepped in and started removing posts like yours, which violate several TOS clauses.

WeerW3ir · August 2019

wow. did you expect a needle?

zaria · August 2019

Urigall wrote: »

The dogs bark - the caravan moves on.

The dog bark probably because an bird, nobody cares.
This one offers an sheers.

hiyde · August 2019

GQManOfTheYear wrote: »

And I definitely agree with you on the price point of ESO Plus. I was thinking about that too. How much would Zenimax/ZOS price ESO Plus at for me to feel like it's worth while? My price would be $5. At $10, it's not worth it. At $15, it's definitely not worth it.

For myself personally (read: myself personally!), I feel the pricing is wrong as well.
I'd gladly pay triple. (well, technically I do, with multiple accounts).

When I think about what else I could do with an entertainment budget of 50 cents a day, absolutely nothing comes to mind.
That's not even 1 movie, 1 trip to the pub, 1 new console video game and on and on. For those on a tight budget, I can't think of a way to have endless gaming fun that would be easier on budget than an MMO. I've saved thousands in the past decade of MMO gaming.

But again, that's just me. YMMV.

Canned_Apples · August 2019

WoW classic. lol.
People will play for a few weeks then call it quits.
I played private servers for about that time as the nostalgia wears off quickly.
It's so boring.

JusticeForJilarga · August 2019

nafensoriel wrote: »

xbangax wrote: »

sub·scrip·tion

the action of making or agreeing to make an advance payment in order to receive or participate in something.

you even called people who pay for eso+ subscribers lol

@Tandor
Yes, change your definition. You want to imply that a standard MMO subscription like WoW or EVEs old models is identical to an upgraded service subscription. Subscriptions are simple contracts and as such there are many types of them.

If you want to argue the pros and cons of ESO+ that you can subscribe to then go for it. There are thousands of threads on this forum discussing the same thing.

If you want to imply that ESO+ is a game subscription then you really don't have a leg to stand on.

To explain.
A game subscription like you are requesting grants access to a product. ESO is B2P. No repeated payments are required to access.
ESO+ is an upgraded service agreement for cost. ESO+ cannot exist without the primary product and does not provide anything not included by standard purchasing(you can argue the craft bag but functionally its just storage and you get storage for free).

Just like a cruise ship I mentioned earlier you cannot buy the upgrade without owning the product. It doesn't matter if the upgrade can be subscribed to it is not the subscription you are requesting. ESO+ cannot exist without ownership and has no bearing on the operation by the user of the product.

Now to also point out the absolute hilariously impossibility of converting an established B2P model to subscription-based pay for access model. How exactly do you think ZOS does that? Force all players currently playing for free to lose access or pay for a product they already purchased again? Do you seriously expect any court anywhere would let that fly?

The entire concept is absurd. It was absurd when it was abandoned as a model for business for reasons I already stated. Subscriptions to access games are dead. The few who exist only do so because they were made before modern monetization happened. Get over it and move on.

If it's not a subscription then why is it in this ones list of subscriptions on Xbox?

Gandrhulf_Harbard · August 2019

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Thriving and healthy? Well my circle of active ingame "friends" has diminished from over 200 just before Morrowind to just me now. I find it hard to think that level of player loss is anything even remotely on the same planet as "thriving and healthy".

So your circle of "200 active game friends" is a reliable sample of the overall player population ?

Well as 99% of them were random sign-ups at the beginning, yes I do.

Do understand random selection and statistical analysis?

All The Best

Tandor · August 2019

JusticeForJilarga wrote: »

nafensoriel wrote: »

xbangax wrote: »

sub·scrip·tion

the action of making or agreeing to make an advance payment in order to receive or participate in something.

you even called people who pay for eso+ subscribers lol

@Tandor
Yes, change your definition. You want to imply that a standard MMO subscription like WoW or EVEs old models is identical to an upgraded service subscription. Subscriptions are simple contracts and as such there are many types of them.

If you want to argue the pros and cons of ESO+ that you can subscribe to then go for it. There are thousands of threads on this forum discussing the same thing.

If you want to imply that ESO+ is a game subscription then you really don't have a leg to stand on.

To explain.
A game subscription like you are requesting grants access to a product. ESO is B2P. No repeated payments are required to access.
ESO+ is an upgraded service agreement for cost. ESO+ cannot exist without the primary product and does not provide anything not included by standard purchasing(you can argue the craft bag but functionally its just storage and you get storage for free).

Just like a cruise ship I mentioned earlier you cannot buy the upgrade without owning the product. It doesn't matter if the upgrade can be subscribed to it is not the subscription you are requesting. ESO+ cannot exist without ownership and has no bearing on the operation by the user of the product.

Now to also point out the absolute hilariously impossibility of converting an established B2P model to subscription-based pay for access model. How exactly do you think ZOS does that? Force all players currently playing for free to lose access or pay for a product they already purchased again? Do you seriously expect any court anywhere would let that fly?

The entire concept is absurd. It was absurd when it was abandoned as a model for business for reasons I already stated. Subscriptions to access games are dead. The few who exist only do so because they were made before modern monetization happened. Get over it and move on.

If it's not a subscription then why is it in this ones list of subscriptions on Xbox?

Probably for the same reason that @nafensoriel himself in post #97 refers to those with ESO+ as "ESO+ subscribers".

Because it's a subscription!

JusticeForJilarga · August 2019

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

anitajoneb17_ESO wrote: »

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Thriving and healthy? Well my circle of active ingame "friends" has diminished from over 200 just before Morrowind to just me now. I find it hard to think that level of player loss is anything even remotely on the same planet as "thriving and healthy".

So your circle of "200 active game friends" is a reliable sample of the overall player population ?

Well as 99% of them were random sign-ups at the beginning, yes I do.

Do understand random selection and statistical analysis?

All The Best

This one knows that a larger pool of people is needed for a more clear result. This one is certain it's just coincidence.