Genuine question about this game.

Gahmerdohn · August 2019

Disclaimer: Every affirmation in this post is based on my own experience of the game. Also, I will talk exclusively from a PVE perspective. If you have a totally different experience feel free to comment it'll help truly.

I've been playing ESO since beta now and I can say that I had time to observe all the changes the game has gone through.

My question is: Will ESO ever be a game with some diversity in endgame PVE? More specifically is there the desire to make it so?

NO, I'm not attacking the meta, far from it, I'm grateful to all those players that have dedicated so much time in finding the best so we can go as far as possible in the PVE content of the game.

In the current state of the game, we can see 4 ways to play:

- Tank
- Healer
- Stamina ( Dual wield / Bow back bar)
- Magica

For a long time after launch stamina wasn't even a thing and till recently (last year) Bow and 2H main bar was not even part of the discussion in any serious PVE situations, understand that this is almost 4 YEARS of waiting for all those people like me that are BOW or BIG ASS WEAPON lovers in fantasy MMORPG and in TES games AND want to do PVE seriously...

Most of the changes that happen in the game regarding stamina sets and skills are made according to if underperforming or over performing in the dual wield /bow setups. (when it's not for PVP reasons).

"Play the way you want" will forever only be applicable to questing only?

Yeah, I know: Bow is viable'ish now since Warthstone, Yeah Dual Weild/ 2H is now a thing (no class skill used...debate for another time) but for how long? DW/Bow has been constantly playable for years now to the point that it is in the in game helping guide for beginners. All the other combination are sometimes coming into the light by accident for a few patches and then go back to the forgotten crypt, like WW.....Or have a really painful Gameplay like trying to use a bow/bow without Tzogvin's Warband...

Even if one day those marginal combinations are able to pull good numbers are they fun to play??? While weaving with a bow, for example, do you have fun? Or you're waiting for the next time this clunky gameplay will fail you again...Does it feel fluid, rewarding and fun ???

I'm asking the question because regardless of your experience of the game there's one thing that we can't deny about MMORPG and RPG in general. What we, players, care the most and make us stay in a game or play for hours even if there's nothing to do is how much we enjoy our characters ( and not just the look of it with an infinite number of outfit styles). That's even why we log back into a game that we don't play anymore just to see our beloved characters.
So many resources are used to make new content and new content and more content and new content to make us stay and play more but the content really doesn't matter at all if we don't enjoy the experience of our characters exploring that content.

IF we are all here it's because we all like Fantasy worlds and some of us love being archers, hunters, berserkers, warriors, mages, thieves whatever. Waiting YEARS to even be able to play a true Warrior in a fantasy MMORPG in a high PVE setting is WAY TOO MCUH !!!!!

DO you think that new dungeons, new quests, new mounts, new events will make us play more? We will log into the game to do the trial or DLC vDungeon look at the quest and log after that to play another game in which we actually have fun because of the gameplay and not only because of the content!!!!!

Of all the MMO I've played so far ESO is the one with the higher "Stop for a while" ratio I've ever seen in the player base. The gameplay and the lack of freedom in endgame is probably not the only reason but definitely, play a huge part of it.

Maybe it's time to put the characters and gameplay experience back to the center of development investment and not just feed us with new content only??? Think about it if we enjoy the gameplay and we love playing the game for the experience of playing our characters we will not need that much New content to keep playing... is that simple.

It is because enjoyment and fulfilling gameplay are not there that most people only care about numbers. There's a way to make numbers good and at the same time making people enjoy THEIR gameplay...and it's because we trust you to do so that we are still around.

Of all painpoint, the game had at launch the only one that is still untouched is the chunkiness of the gameplay and HuGE difference in effectiveness between options in an endgame PVE environment. So if you want to play with this weapon you'll never be able to do PVE seriously?

Now if you tell me that ESO will forever be a game where you will only have for stamina DD the DW/BOW as the reliable option and some times, in some patches, you'll be able to play another way for a few months and that because the main goal is only to add new content....say it now so we know what we'll do.

Now, regardless of if my approach is accurate or not, this is what you have to keep in mind: Make the player attached to their character and it's easier to do the rest. In ESO, especially in PVE endgame, so many people had to give up what they wanted to play that they spend more time having 15 characters but they have no strong bond with none of them. No surprise if they simply stop playing so easily...

@Alcast , @Nefas , @Gilliamtherogue

Opinions?

VaranisArano · August 2019

ESO's PVE has plenty of variety if you take the approach of "anything that complete the content is fine". Most builds can clear the minimum required DPS, and skilled, experienced players can usually make very non-optimal builds work even in challenging content.

ESO's PVE has very little variety if you take the approach of "anything that isnt BIS is useless."

Also, a reminder that "play the way you like" actually comes from this:

It doesnt mean that every build is going to be ideal for every type of content.

Delparis · August 2019

Okay but not solid to last for few mors years imo and this is why :

Classes are played 90% the same way, no combo skills like other mmo.
Very bad engine as the game runs at 30 fps at maximum setting on a high end PC
Lags, loading screens and crashes
Bugs that ZoS refuse to fix because they become a feature (animation cancelling and weaving)
...

Grandma · August 2019

tl;dr, but it seems that you're frustrated with the typical team setup? The only other option in the game's system is hybrid DPS, which just doesn't work, but for the vast majority of content any spec/class works fine.

Iskiab · August 2019

Short Answer - no, it will never happen. Unless passives are changed so there’s a reason to bring more variety it will always be best to load up on one class. Even if the difference is as small as 1k, then you’re still best off getting that 1k.

One of each class, then load up on the highest dps with the rest.

Nestor · August 2019

The problem is not in the game. It is in the perceptions of the players. Some think that only the best build is acceptable. Of course they then ignore the 100 or so builds that are at 98% or 99% of the max.

Until Hard Caps on DPS are introduced, some people will insist on the Meta as being the only way.

p00tx · August 2019

For regular trials and content, a unicorn build is absolutely fine. If it gets the job done without requiring you to be carried, then it's an effective build. For very difficult or competitive content however, you need to bring your A-game if you hope to complete the content without a lot of headache, and that means finding the gear/rotation that puts out the highest sustained damage. I'm assuming someone who is worried about gear roleplay is not likely to be participating in extreme end game raids, since the two are not really compatible, so you should be fine bringing whatever you like into content. If someone gives you grief for going into a normal trial or dungeon with a DW/2H set-up, then they have an issue, not you, and you should probably ignore them.

That being said, if you do want to try out a wild build in end game content, you're correct that end game teams will not include you, BUT there is no reason you can't start your own progression team and make it all about the "play as you like" philosophy. If it's your team, you get to write your own rules and decide how the team functions and which roles you will incorporate and how they will be used. If you can find success doing this, you could reshape end game entirely. I say go for it, and have fun while you do it.

Bladerunner1 · August 2019

DW/Bow isn't leagues ahead of other options anymore, and those other options are precisely why I'm still interested this patch. Running BIS or not doesn't matter to me since I can still slam dunk a target dummy with 90+kDPS using the weapon combo that fits my next character, which is a DW/DW Bosmer DK that isn't using hardest-to get trial gear, or bash weaving.

*Edit*. I've been having a lot of fun with Bow/bow for the past year, really. It was refreshing to more than pull my weight in vet trials using the bow build on a character meant to be an archer. It will always have a place as long as bow/bow combat isn't screwed up.

iJuacob · August 2019

So what the hell is your question???

Gahmerdohn · August 2019

Grandma wrote: »

tl;dr, but it seems that you're frustrated with the typical team setup? The only other option in the game's system is hybrid DPS, which just doesn't work, but for the vast majority of content, any spec/class works fine.

No, I'm fine with the traditional set-up team what I'm not fine with is that as stamina DW/Bow has been the only option for way too long and even now that there are other options still no real effort is going in that direction. Yeah, there's 2h and stuff that is now a thing but only after 5years !!!! and for how long? WW, for example, have only be a thing for 2 patches...

Iskiab wrote: »

Short Answer - no, it will never happen. Unless passives are changed so there’s a reason to bring more variety it will always be best to load up on one class. Even if the difference is as small as 1k, then you’re still best off getting that 1k.

One of each class, then loads up on the highest DPS with the rest.

I understand that in the context of competitive guild fighting for the leaderboard but in this game there's so much confusion that the best for leaderboard becomes the only way of playing in the minds of players...

Nestor wrote: »

The problem is not in the game. It is in the perceptions of the players. Some think that only the best build is acceptable. Of course, they then ignore the 100 or so builds that are at 98% or 99% of the max.

Until Hard Caps on DPS are introduced, some people will insist on the Meta as being the only way.

I agree with that, the only moment where we have seen diversity in the game was when Soft-caps were here...

p00tx wrote: »

For regular trials and content, a unicorn build is absolutely fine. If it gets the job done without requiring you to be carried, then it's an effective build. For very difficult or competitive content however, you need to bring your A-game if you hope to complete the content without a lot of headache, and that means finding the gear/rotation that puts out the highest sustained damage. I'm assuming someone who is worried about gear roleplay is not likely to be participating in extreme end game raids, since the two are not really compatible, so you should be fine bringing whatever you like into content. If someone gives you grief for going into a normal trial or dungeon with a DW/2H set-up, then they have an issue, not you, and you should probably ignore them.

That being said, if you do want to try out a wild build in end game content, you're correct that end game teams will not include you, BUT there is no reason you can't start your own progression team and make it all about the "play as you like" philosophy. If it's your team, you get to write your own rules and decide how the team functions and which roles you will incorporate and how they will be used. If you can find success doing this, you could reshape end game entirely. I say go for it, and have fun while you do it.

I'm already doing something like that but if for example BOW/BOW builds were doing 90% of the max DPS well it'd not be a big deal but this is not the case and like you said those other options represent loosing so much that at the end it isn't worth it for end game.

You have touched something interesting here and that's the whole point of my post and my question:

Will this game at some point will have diversity without diversity = headache when doing hard content? (obviously, I'm talking about thoughtfully designed build, not archers spamming Magicka spells...)
Are serious effort made in that direction?

or the same thing reformulated: Is it in the mind of the devs or class Reps the goal of one day have all options close to each other? ( DW/DW, DW/BOW, BOW/BOW, 2H/2H, 2H/DW, 2H/BOW that will obviously have different DPS and it will always be one that is the best at a certain moment but at least the difference is not huge !)

Shunsei · August 2019

I'm already doing something like that but if for example BOW/BOW builds were doing 90% of the max DPS well it'd not be a big deal but this is not the case and like you said those other options represent loosing so much that at the end it isn't worth it for end game.

You have touched something interesting here and that's the whole point of my post and my question:

Will this game at some point will have diversity without diversity = headache when doing hard content? (obviously, I'm talking about thoughtfully designed build, not archers spamming Magicka spells...)
Are serious effort made in that direction?

or the same thing reformulated: Is it in the mind of the devs or class Reps the goal of one day have all options close to each other? ( DW/DW, DW/BOW, BOW/BOW, 2H/2H, 2H/DW, 2H/BOW that will obviously have different DPS and it will always be one that is the best at a certain moment but at least the difference is not huge !)

His point is that for most of the content, what you are claiming is not even an issue. It only becomes an issue at the very upper end of PvE endgame. No MMORPG ever will have every single possible type of playstyle perfectly equal to one another in every single type of content. It's not possible.

Do the developers make an effort to make everything as balanced as possible? Clearly they do. Can't see any reason as to why developers would want 0 diversity in their game.

MasterSpatula · August 2019

I get a little wiggy about threads that call for much in the way of gameplay changes. After the last two years, I'm pretty much for doing anything possible to encourage them to change gameplay as little as possible, because every patch seems to make things detriorate.

I mean, I may not much care for the current state of things, but I just don't trust them to do anything but make it worse.

Before Morrowind, I would have thought what I just wrote was hyperbolic. But now, it's just a description of the trend.

Joxer61 · August 2019

Gahmerdohn wrote: »

@Alcast , @Nefas , @Gilliamtherogue

Opinions?

Whats the point of listing these three? There are loads of content/build creators out there...not sure why the fan boying was needed.

Gahmerdohn · August 2019

@Joxer61
I don't really understand what you mean here, I'm asking them their opinion on the matter. Why? Simply cause I know they have discussed this subject with the development team nothing more. If you know someone that also did and can bring light here feel free to tag him/her it'd be helpful.

Gahmerdohn · August 2019

Shunsei wrote: »

His point is that for most of the content, what you are claiming is not even an issue. It only becomes an issue at the very upper end of PvE endgame. No MMORPG ever will have every single possible type of playstyle perfectly equal to one another in every single type of content. It's not possible.

Do the developers make an effort to make everything as balanced as possible? Clearly, they do. Can't see any reason as to why developers would want 0 diversity in their game.

Again the point it's not to "have every single type of playstyle perfectly equal"! Of course, this will never be possible in any game! The point is to have no huge gaps between them. Meaning if the best option (DW/Bow) is pulling 100k the worst (well build), let's say Bow/Bow is pulling 80k. witch is a reasonable difference.
And this not just for weapon type but for sets as well, Relequen, for example, is way way way way ahead of any other set when it comes to single-target damage. of course, it will always be the best set the problem is when between this best option and the second-best option there's more than 10k difference...

Then there's a difference between wanting something and actively making progress towards it, most of the time in life, when there's no progress, means that we don't care enough...So having some kind of weak progress towards diversity in 5 years can say a lot about the real desire to make it so...