Skwor wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

edges_endgame wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

DOTs are fine.

What needs to be nerfed is Cloak and Purge. Nightblades and Templars should have to suffer DOTs like the rest of us!

LOL.... Everyone can slot purge. I am not playing NB or Templar, but I sacrifice one slot to purge. Why don't you?

Becuase all that player really wants is to destroy any other class that is not their preferred class.

Anyone calling to nerf Templar has totally lost it. Especially to nerf a 5 year old skill no one has really cared about until now. A skill any class can have.

Magica deal with low stamina for CC. Now stamina deal with low magica for dots when using purge, that is fair. THAT IS CALLED FRICKING BALANCE. We finally get some real cross class balance and the "easymoders" lose their minds.

Sorry but that’s just not the case. I’ll walk you through the why. First of all, all stamina classes already have to use at least one or more magicka skills that likely cost 3-4K magicka, secondly the main drain for magicka classes is dealing with CC. But not only do CC grant an immunity there are also pots that provide this. And as of Summerset you’ve got race against time so all magicka classes have snare removal. This means that break free should really be the only drain. If you want to strategically dodge roll or sprint that’s on you for resource management. There is no immunity or cooldown on dots. So as soon as you cast purge people just recast. It’s not at all comparable. Also I never have stam issues on my mag DK and I use block and dodge roll fairly frequently with a 15k stam pool. On my Stamplar I have to run a 17k mag pool. Honestly your complaints are baseless and not well informed.

And yet another argument where the attempt is made to justify why it is ok for magica users to work with a limted sta pool when attempting to counter damage but stamina users somehow should never be expected to do so with a limited magica pool.

You can be successful using purge snd Hots as a counter. Several sta players have already posted just that fact and are doing is successfully. So it would seem the players who know the game can do it. All I have read so far against it have added up to some players frustrated they can not face roll dps anymore in pvp.

No amount of ad hominems will change that.

Spamming dots is the definition of face roll dps.
And there isn't a single good player out there who says the dots are fine, the only people defending the current implementation are people with limited knowledge who are zergsurfing or people who have never stepped into PvP and now like how easily they can reach decent dps numbers, which are again no top tier players as the top pvers also hate the changes as it makes the whole game stale and boring on every single spec.

I can dismiss you argument in that it uses a common sophist' tool of reducto ad ridiculum. The statement "And there isn't a single good player out there who says the dots are fine" flat out asserts that any disagreeing are just a poor players, ergo you have no cogent point and at this stage are forced to use attacks on those who differ in opinion.

Good luck trying to convince anyone with that line of discussion.

Alright then let's do a short numbers game for you:
We use the example of a DK here because it doesn't inherit a source of purge in his class toolkit.
In non cp both break free and efficient purge cost 5400 stam/mag.

CC immunity is 7 seconds that means in 70 seconds we can only break free a maximum of 11 times (10 if we aren't stunned at 0 seconds) assuming we actually get stunned on cooldown.
We'll use the 10 purges so we get even numbers here it won't matter in the end.
That's 54,000 stam spent over 70 seconds for break free.
Meaning if we had to completely get that amount of stam via regen and we have no stam at the beginning we would need a stam regen of:
54000/35 (regen happens every 2 seconds)
Which results in ~1500 stamregen required to keep up the break free for 70 seconds.

But we don't have 0 stam when this experiment starts right?
So now we use a 15k stampool which we directly subtract from the 54,000 required stamina resulting in 39k stamina required and which brings our stamina regen requirement down to ~1.1k regen.
Most builds feature a minimum regen of about 700 without any investment. So now we only have to reach 400 regen via other means which are different for all specs but exist for each one of them.
For a DK that would be helping hands (restoring 990 stam on casting a earthen heart ability like fossilize))
And battle roar which returns 46 per ultimate point up to the cost of the ultimate used.

As we want to stun the enemy as often as possible we'll also use fossilize every 7 seconds resulting in 9.9k stamina over 70 seconds or 280 stamregen.

So we need 120 more regen and that's easily covered by helping hands even when only gaining the 3 ult per sec from light attacks as it results in ~240 stam and mag regen.

We also haven't covered the useage of tri pots (8k resources every 45 seconds or in the long run 355 stam and mag regen.

Summing this all up leaves us with: 1.5k stamregen and wow this means we can even sustain the break free if we start with 0 stamina or if we start with 15k stamina we can use 400*35 = 14000 stamina as we want to, while still being able to always CC break.
For you this means 26 seconds of sprinting if you're using 5 light and have the grace passive unlocked.

Also CC break works all the time and doesn't scale with the number of enemies you're facing because the Cc immunity is on you which means no matter if 1 or 70 enemies you can't be CC'd more than once every 7 seconds.

Now let's head over to something that does scale with the number of enemies you're fighting while also loses effectiveness when facing multiple people and is tied to luck.
As explained in an earlier post you often have 10 negative effects on you depending on your enemy you have more than 3 strong dots on you but purge only helps vs 3 of them and for every additional enemy the number of dots on you increases further and you can still only remove 3 of them.

Let's use the same example as before: fight over 70 seconds, purging every 7 seconds, total purges =10
Cost for this are 54,000 magicka.
The total amount of negative effects removed is 30.

We will need 1.5k magregen to keep up with purging every 7 seconds or 1.1k if we have a starting pool of 15k magicka.
But here comes the issue, we also have class skills we have to use as a DK and they come with a magicka drain, namely volatile armor and cauterize, both skills are required to be used as not using them puts us at a direct disadvantage.
Volatile costs 2700 magicka every 20 seconds and cauterize costs 2160 magicka every 15 seconds resulting in a drain of 558 magickaregen (cost*2/druation).
This increases our need for magicka to 1.6k and 2k magregen depending on the scenario.

However there's no such thing as helping hands return in a DKs toolkit, but helping hand stays the same so 480 regen here:
Resulting in a need for 1,15k or 1.55k magregen again which we have to get via direct regen, remember how we had 700 regen as a base in the other example?

Well even with pots we need ~100 or 400 magregen to sustain a purge every 7 seconds.
See that we're not even talking about having mag to spare anymore?

Which leads us to the next big issue purge isn't as reliable as CC break because CC break directly counters the CC and isn't attached to any luck, you use it and you're no longer CC'd. Purge is completely different here in the example with 10 negative effects out of which 3 dots are the chance to have them removed in one go is less than 3% for one single cast, for 10 consecutive casts the chance is 2,0*10^(-16) to always remove the 3 dots you want to remove.
Not even winning the lottery is connected with such a small chance of success.

And that's just the example for 10 negative effects, we haven't even covered the issues when you're facing multiple enemies who all put additional dots on you up to a number that you're unable to remove them all even when spamming purge till you run out of resources.

The sustain numbers shift even further in favour of CC break when we look at Cp as you can easily reduce the cost of CC break via CP to 4k (as well as the oh so important sprinting) but none for purge while the number of debuffs increases in CP due to siphoner and tactician.

As you see your whole argument is flawed and i advise putting lots of effort into your next posts on the forums if you don't want to make a fool of yourself.


//granted those scenarios use generalizations and ignore some things to have an easier application of the topic//

Nice job on the response, seriuosly I mean it.

I have no need to be as detailed. One point will do. As a magica user i have at best 3 maybe 4 dodges in me until my sta pool is empty. Add blocks, break frees and sprint and it is way worse. I have never been able to CC break 10 times in a row.

I do just fine with that limited resource. Now why is it you need to effectively spam purge 10 times in a row if magica dedicated users work with much less than that for the stamina tools dodge, break free, block and sprint?

Kagukan wrote: »

HaruKamui wrote: »

Summary of this thread is that casuals/noobs are okay with the dots, while veterans who usually disagree with one another one other topics are all agreeing that dots need nerfing.

So called "veterans" that can't adapt and counter DoT's. Who exactly is the "noob"? LOL

Rikumaru wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Skwor wrote: »

edges_endgame wrote: »

Emma_Overload wrote: »

DOTs are fine.

What needs to be nerfed is Cloak and Purge. Nightblades and Templars should have to suffer DOTs like the rest of us!

LOL.... Everyone can slot purge. I am not playing NB or Templar, but I sacrifice one slot to purge. Why don't you?

Becuase all that player really wants is to destroy any other class that is not their preferred class.

Anyone calling to nerf Templar has totally lost it. Especially to nerf a 5 year old skill no one has really cared about until now. A skill any class can have.

Magica deal with low stamina for CC. Now stamina deal with low magica for dots when using purge, that is fair. THAT IS CALLED FRICKING BALANCE. We finally get some real cross class balance and the "easymoders" lose their minds.

Sorry but that’s just not the case. I’ll walk you through the why. First of all, all stamina classes already have to use at least one or more magicka skills that likely cost 3-4K magicka, secondly the main drain for magicka classes is dealing with CC. But not only do CC grant an immunity there are also pots that provide this. And as of Summerset you’ve got race against time so all magicka classes have snare removal. This means that break free should really be the only drain. If you want to strategically dodge roll or sprint that’s on you for resource management. There is no immunity or cooldown on dots. So as soon as you cast purge people just recast. It’s not at all comparable. Also I never have stam issues on my mag DK and I use block and dodge roll fairly frequently with a 15k stam pool. On my Stamplar I have to run a 17k mag pool. Honestly your complaints are baseless and not well informed.

And yet another argument where the attempt is made to justify why it is ok for magica users to work with a limted sta pool when attempting to counter damage but stamina users somehow should never be expected to do so with a limited magica pool.

You can be successful using purge snd Hots as a counter. Several sta players have already posted just that fact and are doing is successfully. So it would seem the players who know the game can do it. All I have read so far against it have added up to some players frustrated they can not face roll dps anymore in pvp.

No amount of ad hominems will change that.

Spamming dots is the definition of face roll dps.
And there isn't a single good player out there who says the dots are fine, the only people defending the current implementation are people with limited knowledge who are zergsurfing or people who have never stepped into PvP and now like how easily they can reach decent dps numbers, which are again no top tier players as the top pvers also hate the changes as it makes the whole game stale and boring on every single spec.

I can dismiss you argument in that it uses a common sophist' tool of reducto ad ridiculum. The statement "And there isn't a single good player out there who says the dots are fine" flat out asserts that any disagreeing are just a poor players, ergo you have no cogent point and at this stage are forced to use attacks on those who differ in opinion.

Good luck trying to convince anyone with that line of discussion.

Alright then let's do a short numbers game for you:
We use the example of a DK here because it doesn't inherit a source of purge in his class toolkit.
In non cp both break free and efficient purge cost 5400 stam/mag.

CC immunity is 7 seconds that means in 70 seconds we can only break free a maximum of 11 times (10 if we aren't stunned at 0 seconds) assuming we actually get stunned on cooldown.
We'll use the 10 purges so we get even numbers here it won't matter in the end.
That's 54,000 stam spent over 70 seconds for break free.
Meaning if we had to completely get that amount of stam via regen and we have no stam at the beginning we would need a stam regen of:
54000/35 (regen happens every 2 seconds)
Which results in ~1500 stamregen required to keep up the break free for 70 seconds.

But we don't have 0 stam when this experiment starts right?
So now we use a 15k stampool which we directly subtract from the 54,000 required stamina resulting in 39k stamina required and which brings our stamina regen requirement down to ~1.1k regen.
Most builds feature a minimum regen of about 700 without any investment. So now we only have to reach 400 regen via other means which are different for all specs but exist for each one of them.
For a DK that would be helping hands (restoring 990 stam on casting a earthen heart ability like fossilize))
And battle roar which returns 46 per ultimate point up to the cost of the ultimate used.

As we want to stun the enemy as often as possible we'll also use fossilize every 7 seconds resulting in 9.9k stamina over 70 seconds or 280 stamregen.

So we need 120 more regen and that's easily covered by helping hands even when only gaining the 3 ult per sec from light attacks as it results in ~240 stam and mag regen.

We also haven't covered the useage of tri pots (8k resources every 45 seconds or in the long run 355 stam and mag regen.

Summing this all up leaves us with: 1.5k stamregen and wow this means we can even sustain the break free if we start with 0 stamina or if we start with 15k stamina we can use 400*35 = 14000 stamina as we want to, while still being able to always CC break.
For you this means 26 seconds of sprinting if you're using 5 light and have the grace passive unlocked.

Also CC break works all the time and doesn't scale with the number of enemies you're facing because the Cc immunity is on you which means no matter if 1 or 70 enemies you can't be CC'd more than once every 7 seconds.

Now let's head over to something that does scale with the number of enemies you're fighting while also loses effectiveness when facing multiple people and is tied to luck.
As explained in an earlier post you often have 10 negative effects on you depending on your enemy you have more than 3 strong dots on you but purge only helps vs 3 of them and for every additional enemy the number of dots on you increases further and you can still only remove 3 of them.

Let's use the same example as before: fight over 70 seconds, purging every 7 seconds, total purges =10
Cost for this are 54,000 magicka.
The total amount of negative effects removed is 30.

We will need 1.5k magregen to keep up with purging every 7 seconds or 1.1k if we have a starting pool of 15k magicka.
But here comes the issue, we also have class skills we have to use as a DK and they come with a magicka drain, namely volatile armor and cauterize, both skills are required to be used as not using them puts us at a direct disadvantage.
Volatile costs 2700 magicka every 20 seconds and cauterize costs 2160 magicka every 15 seconds resulting in a drain of 558 magickaregen (cost*2/druation).
This increases our need for magicka to 1.6k and 2k magregen depending on the scenario.

However there's no such thing as helping hands return in a DKs toolkit, but helping hand stays the same so 480 regen here:
Resulting in a need for 1,15k or 1.55k magregen again which we have to get via direct regen, remember how we had 700 regen as a base in the other example?

Well even with pots we need ~100 or 400 magregen to sustain a purge every 7 seconds.
See that we're not even talking about having mag to spare anymore?

Which leads us to the next big issue purge isn't as reliable as CC break because CC break directly counters the CC and isn't attached to any luck, you use it and you're no longer CC'd. Purge is completely different here in the example with 10 negative effects out of which 3 dots are the chance to have them removed in one go is less than 3% for one single cast, for 10 consecutive casts the chance is 2,0*10^(-16) to always remove the 3 dots you want to remove.
Not even winning the lottery is connected with such a small chance of success.

And that's just the example for 10 negative effects, we haven't even covered the issues when you're facing multiple enemies who all put additional dots on you up to a number that you're unable to remove them all even when spamming purge till you run out of resources.

The sustain numbers shift even further in favour of CC break when we look at Cp as you can easily reduce the cost of CC break via CP to 4k (as well as the oh so important sprinting) but none for purge while the number of debuffs increases in CP due to siphoner and tactician.

As you see your whole argument is flawed and i advise putting lots of effort into your next posts on the forums if you don't want to make a fool of yourself.


//granted those scenarios use generalizations and ignore some things to have an easier application of the topic//

Nice job on the response, seriously I mean it.

I have no need to be as detailed. One point will do. As a magica user I have at best 3 maybe 4 dodges in me until my sta pool is empty. Add blocks, break frees and sprint and it is way worse. I have never been able to CC break 10 times in a row.

I do just fine with that limited resource. Now why is it you need to effectively spam purge 10 times in a row if magica dedicated users work with much less than that for the stamina tools dodge, break free, block and sprint?

Why are you rolling 3-4 times in a row on a magicka build?