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Dot nerfing Monday?
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edges_endgame✭✭✭✭edges_endgame wrote: »Trinity_Is_My_Name wrote: »
1/10edges_endgame wrote: »DukeDiewalker wrote: »The "adaptation" was to not run around with 8K Stamina and stack your Magicka into oblivion....
You cannot even counter build against DOT spam with stamina classes without completely switching to a magicka class.
Besides, every magicka class except templar and maybe necro are heavily affected by that too.
And don't even start with the alliance skill purge... that's like defending the busted siege damage from a couple of months ago by saying "Hey, everyone just slot Siege Shield" 4Head
It's not that simple.
Actually... It is. Slot purge. Stop the complaint.
And don't stand in oils or siege.
OH and PURGE
Either you are a troll or you have no idea about how to actually play the game.
Choose one of the above.
Its nothing personal but "Slot Purge" is not the answer
If by any chance you would actually play pvp you would know that removing 3 effects for 5k magicka is not worth it and you wont survive by doing so, because the moment you use purge that dot spamming person will just re-apply those dots, because hey they hit harder than actual non dot abilities who require a gcd. Good Job you just wasted 5k magicka!
Yes the efficiency of spamming dots compared to someone who uses non-dot abilities is huge. It frees up a lot of gcd that said person can use for something else.
For example a magblade who slots 4 dots does not hit a single merciless resolve or incap, no cc slotted, and just spams dots and shields and somehow does fine is the epitome of whats wrong in this meta that caters towards casuals
But hey i could go on and in detail explain to you the flaws of this game but i do not wanna blow your mind
We do not even address the issue that now every class has access to fear via turn evil or corrosive armor via onslaught (maybe we should give every class streak & cloak now too) or how living dark immobilizes you every 0.5 secs. The fact that ballista is broken and desyncs your health.
You know "those small number of people that complain" actually are people that know how to play the game and dont need those zerg pocket healers, because when you zerg you do not notice such things
Assuming a little too much there, eh?
I won't explain how I play or who I play with but I got no issue with DOTs at all. Neither does my magicka run out, nor do I get killed by DOTs very often. Usually only when zerged down.
A good player adepts. And I am not assuming you are a bad player.
I would appreciate it if you wouldn't assume things, just because you disagree with me.
Have a good one.
Let me guess you are a CP player?
I am not.0 -
Somnilux✭✭✭The dot changes just exacerbates the issues with purge, which is extremely powerful yet boring gameplay design.
I don't feel templars are even remotely the issue (also note necromancers and magdens have access to similar levels of purging from class abilities), but we're talking the entire concept and metric of purge.
Purge treats all debuffs the same, while not all debuffs are equally valuable or worth countering. Its a stupidly expensive skill, that needs to be built around and has led to pvp guilds for ages running people with high regen that really only access stuff like purge, time stop, or rapids to spam abilities designed to be too expensive to be spammed by any reasonable build. This superspecialization allows these skills to way outperform and make up for what is otherwise a really horrid load of immobilizations, snares, and damage debuffs.
This is why against an organized ball group, dots will do almost nothing in terms of effective damage (though they will make it so the purgers have to work harder and have less downtime and more of a chance of one of your CCs sticking for more than a second).
And for soloers, or small groups purge is far less accessible and only the classes with more reasonable purges available (necros, and templars mostly, with some wardens), can really counter it effectively, and to them its not really even a change from last patch.
I REALLY think they need to address purge the same way they have every other buff in the game, a major and minor system.
Leave the current purges alone, and call them major purge, and have these exclusively remove hard CCs and major debuffs and dots from ultimates, while classify damage dots from normal abilities and weapon procs, and minor debuffs as minor purge.
Add minor purge to more class neutral abilities, including stamina and magicka equally.
Bam, we've solved the dot meta without fundamentally breaking the game.
Luxe Khanna - AD, Rank 49 Argonian Magblade Healer
Crystala Khanna - AD, Rank 40 Khajiit Stamplar
Guilds: Fantasia, Dominant Dominion.1 -
Enkil✭✭✭✭✭
✭Four pages of players going at it back and forth saying some only want to nerf classes other than theirs, need to L2play, are clueless, can just magically adapt, on and on with only few thoughtful and objective posts sprinkled in. Perhaps people should discuss the actual issue of the very significant DoT improvements without resorting to ad hominem attacks which immediately undermine anything else posted and make their author look foolish and petty.
The DoT damage increase should have been added as NPC-only components for skills like Entropy, Soul Trap, others and their morphs. This type of different effects on players vs. mobs already exists for skills like Sorc’s negate so we know the capability already exists. The dev’s definitely need to expand on the utilization of NPC-only effects and damage in order address shortcomings in areas like PvE without creating even more problems in other areas.
For context, I play mostly healers, of all 6 classes almost only in PvP, and rarely ever PvE beyond overland. I can say for certain Purge is not a viable solution and not even useable on any stam build whatsoever, nor is it a realistic counter to the massive increase in the number of DoTs being utilized since the patch. It has to also go thru negative effects and debuffs as well.
I find the new changes easiest to handle by mag/stam necro especially, getting back resources for each effect and it only costing a tad bit of HP. That the most capable class is locked behind paywall is revealing.
Likewise, templar is able to cope more, so I have begrudgingly dusted mine off to be my new main as I like to play support and keep others alive and in the fight. I played this class for too long though and would rather use my warden, which was too negatively impacted by converting destruction staff ranged CC skill into pure DoT.
One thing that would likely help is to set prioritization levels for various negative effects so that DoTs are very high on the list of what effects get purged, followed by whatever is next most detrimental. Re-examining the negative effect/purge dynamics overall might be in order as well if it is to be the counter this over-reliance on DoTs. Maybe purge abilities should remove categories of effects per purge, instead of just individual effects, or some other way to balance the fiasco they’ve created. Purging skills or effects could also be added to skills of classes that do not currently have access. Common sense dictates this all should have been done simultaneously with boosting them and before putting patch on live.
Edited by Enkil on August 20, 2019 4:08AM4 -
MasterSpatula✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Emma_Overload wrote: »DOTs are fine.
What needs to be nerfed is Cloak and Purge. Nightblades and Templars should have to suffer DOTs like the rest of us!
No they arent. To hell with this idea. Look, normally i appreciate your sorc activism. But this goes too far. Dots are 100% unskilled gameplay when they have 28m range and hit aoe (trap).
No need to worry. It's not like ZOS would ever dream of nerfing the utility out of abilities essential to the gameplay and flavor of a class, right?"A probable impossibility is preferable to an improbable possibility." - Aristotle0 -
Vapirko✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭edges_endgame wrote: »Emma_Overload wrote: »DOTs are fine.
What needs to be nerfed is Cloak and Purge. Nightblades and Templars should have to suffer DOTs like the rest of us!
LOL.... Everyone can slot purge. I am not playing NB or Templar, but I sacrifice one slot to purge. Why don't you?
Becuase all that player really wants is to destroy any other class that is not their preferred class.
Anyone calling to nerf Templar has totally lost it. Especially to nerf a 5 year old skill no one has really cared about until now. A skill any class can have.
Magica deal with low stamina for CC. Now stamina deal with low magica for dots when using purge, that is fair. THAT IS CALLED FRICKING BALANCE. We finally get some real cross class balance and the "easymoders" lose their minds.
Sorry but that’s just not the case. I’ll walk you through the why. First of all, all stamina classes already have to use at least one or more magicka skills that likely cost 3-4K magicka, secondly the main drain for magicka classes is dealing with CC. But not only do CC grant an immunity there are also pots that provide this. And as of Summerset you’ve got race against time so all magicka classes have snare removal. This means that break free should really be the only drain. If you want to strategically dodge roll or sprint that’s on you for resource management. There is no immunity or cooldown on dots. So as soon as you cast purge people just recast. It’s not at all comparable. Also I never have stam issues on my mag DK and I use block and dodge roll fairly frequently with a 15k stam pool. On my Stamplar I have to run a 17k mag pool. Honestly your complaints are baseless and not well informed.4 -
jainiadral✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
TIL where REEEEEE came from. I'm not sure if my life has been enhanced by this knowledge. Hm.
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Elusiin✭✭✭✭✭Nerftheforums wrote: »Unlikely. Sload’s was nerfed quickly but it was a collective outcry from the entire community. Unfortunately a lot of casuals are happy with the ease of play in this dot meta. I actually wonder if we will see more movement in this direction. What I find comical is that all the people who bitched and complained about getting 1vXd because of the so called “meta” builds are now perfectly fine crutching off this new meta. It’s really and truly astounding how many people would rather blame their short comings on sets and then so readily jump to the defense of the cheesiest changes we’ve seen yet. It’s pathetic really.
My hope is that some of the theory crafters and hardcore players come up with some really OP bs dot builds and just start recking people with them and then the casuals will eventually start complaining as well.
It's not a new meta because you can counter it easily, aka it's not broken. Adapt.
You have no idea what you’re talking about. Your posts consistently prove that. Entropy on my SB mag DK defensive bar with 35k mag and 1900 spell damage has a 21k tooltip. Rending slashes on my Stamplar with 3.9k wpn damage and 36k stamina has a slightly lower tooltip. If that’s your definition of balanced then we can’t even have a conversation.
“Adapt” is what people say when they’re desperately clutching onto the OP skill that’s keeping them relevant and they want to try and downplay people who don’t agree with them.
Yeah an vigor or rapid regen have the same tooltip. Plus that's over 10 seconds, halved by battle spirit, and then subject to resistances. If you can't throw up a damage shield, purge, or heal in that time, then you're bad. Also efficient purge is only 4k magicka, so don't tell me as a stam you can't run it. Stop ranting and raving on the forums and just adjust your build.
EDIT: I say Adapt because you're the type of person that is desperately clutching onto the past burst damage build metas that were in no way balanced.
Your lack of knowledge about this game is damn crazy.
No stam class can afford to use purge every fourth second, thats totally unsustainable. Stam relies on on mag heavily for utility (armor buffs, purges, mobility, etc), but how could you know that. Oh right, by playing any stam class in pvp.
You don't have to use it that often, you realize no one can spam stack DoTs without running out of magicka or stamina? They actually have a high resource cost. I play stam, I actually was maining bowmancer but then range of the bow got nerfed and I decided to try something new. Really not the end of the world, but by all means, keep on screaming the end is nigh. I'm sure someone will listen to you.0 -
Elusiin✭✭✭✭✭edges_endgame wrote: »DukeDiewalker wrote: »The "adaptation" was to not run around with 8K Stamina and stack your Magicka into oblivion....
You cannot even counter build against DOT spam with stamina classes without completely switching to a magicka class.
Besides, every magicka class except templar and maybe necro are heavily affected by that too.
And don't even start with the alliance skill purge... that's like defending the busted siege damage from a couple of months ago by saying "Hey, everyone just slot Siege Shield" 4Head
It's not that simple.
Actually... It is. Slot purge. Stop the complaint.
And don't stand in oils or siege.
OH and PURGE
Either you are a troll or you have no idea about how to actually play the game.
Choose one of the above.
Its nothing personal but "Slot Purge" is not the answer
If by any chance you would actually play pvp you would know that removing 3 effects for 5k magicka is not worth it and you wont survive by doing so, because the moment you use purge that dot spamming person will just re-apply those dots, because hey they hit harder than actual non dot abilities who require a gcd. Good Job you just wasted 5k magicka!
Yes the efficiency of spamming dots compared to someone who uses non-dot abilities is huge. It frees up a lot of gcd that said person can use for something else.
For example a magblade who slots 4 dots does not hit a single merciless resolve or incap, no cc slotted, and just spams dots and shields and somehow does fine is the epitome of whats wrong in this meta that caters towards casuals
But hey i could go on and in detail explain to you the flaws of this game but i do not wanna blow your mind
We do not even address the issue that now every class has access to fear via turn evil or corrosive armor via onslaught (maybe we should give every class streak & cloak now too) or how living dark immobilizes you every 0.5 secs. The fact that ballista is broken and desyncs your health.
You know "those small number of people that complain" actually are people that know how to play the game and dont need those zerg pocket healers, because when you zerg you do not notice such things
Okay, then maybe don't 1vX. Go with an ally and then you can purge each other, or fight people one on one. You don't balance a game by saying, well jee I don't know if this guy will be able to kill a zerg, maybe we shouldn't nerf that.1 -
iCaliban✭✭✭✭✭
✭MasterSpatula wrote: »Emma_Overload wrote: »DOTs are fine.
What needs to be nerfed is Cloak and Purge. Nightblades and Templars should have to suffer DOTs like the rest of us!
No they arent. To hell with this idea. Look, normally i appreciate your sorc activism. But this goes too far. Dots are 100% unskilled gameplay when they have 28m range and hit aoe (trap).
No need to worry. It's not like ZOS would ever dream of nerfing the utility out of abilities essential to the gameplay and flavor of a class, right?
How are mages guild and soul magic class identity?0 -
TipsyDrow✭✭✭✭Dots follow you around the tree or rock your hugging, your crutch is gone. Adapt.Oooh, what do we have here? Another scrumptious young plaything straight out of life and into my club? Mmm... you smell new, little boy, like fabric softener dew on freshly mowed Astroturf. Oh, I'm not frightening you, am I, duckling?
Love, Mistress Pigtails3 -
Emma_Overload✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Emma_Overload wrote: »DOTs are fine.
What needs to be nerfed is Cloak and Purge. Nightblades and Templars should have to suffer DOTs like the rest of us!
No they arent. To hell with this idea. Look, normally i appreciate your sorc activism. But this goes too far. Dots are 100% unskilled gameplay when they have 28m range and hit aoe (trap).
I'm just kidding, man, there's no way they're going to nerf Purge or Cloak. But there does need to be something that other classes can do too level the field. I have no idea what the solution is.
There is a Stamina Templar that I keep running into in the IC, and I can't kill him no matter what I do. His secret is that he has enough Magicka regen to cast Purge whenever he needs to. That negates dots AND Curse, so I'm puttingb no pressure on him. It's very frustrating.#CAREBEARMASTERRACE0 -
HowlKimchi✭✭✭✭✭
✭Summary of this thread is that casuals/noobs are okay with the dots, while veterans who usually disagree with one another one other topics are all agreeing that dots need nerfing.2 -
Skwor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭edges_endgame wrote: »Emma_Overload wrote: »DOTs are fine.
What needs to be nerfed is Cloak and Purge. Nightblades and Templars should have to suffer DOTs like the rest of us!
LOL.... Everyone can slot purge. I am not playing NB or Templar, but I sacrifice one slot to purge. Why don't you?
Becuase all that player really wants is to destroy any other class that is not their preferred class.
Anyone calling to nerf Templar has totally lost it. Especially to nerf a 5 year old skill no one has really cared about until now. A skill any class can have.
Magica deal with low stamina for CC. Now stamina deal with low magica for dots when using purge, that is fair. THAT IS CALLED FRICKING BALANCE. We finally get some real cross class balance and the "easymoders" lose their minds.
Sorry but that’s just not the case. I’ll walk you through the why. First of all, all stamina classes already have to use at least one or more magicka skills that likely cost 3-4K magicka, secondly the main drain for magicka classes is dealing with CC. But not only do CC grant an immunity there are also pots that provide this. And as of Summerset you’ve got race against time so all magicka classes have snare removal. This means that break free should really be the only drain. If you want to strategically dodge roll or sprint that’s on you for resource management. There is no immunity or cooldown on dots. So as soon as you cast purge people just recast. It’s not at all comparable. Also I never have stam issues on my mag DK and I use block and dodge roll fairly frequently with a 15k stam pool. On my Stamplar I have to run a 17k mag pool. Honestly your complaints are baseless and not well informed.
And yet another argument where the attempt is made to justify why it is ok for magica users to work with a limted sta pool when attempting to counter damage but stamina users somehow should never be expected to do so with a limited magica pool.
You can be successful using purge snd Hots as a counter. Several sta players have already posted just that fact and are doing is successfully. So it would seem the players who know the game can do it. All I have read so far against it have added up to some players frustrated they can not face roll dps anymore in pvp.
No amount of ad hominems will change that.0 -
BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭edges_endgame wrote: »Emma_Overload wrote: »DOTs are fine.
What needs to be nerfed is Cloak and Purge. Nightblades and Templars should have to suffer DOTs like the rest of us!
LOL.... Everyone can slot purge. I am not playing NB or Templar, but I sacrifice one slot to purge. Why don't you?
Becuase all that player really wants is to destroy any other class that is not their preferred class.
Anyone calling to nerf Templar has totally lost it. Especially to nerf a 5 year old skill no one has really cared about until now. A skill any class can have.
Magica deal with low stamina for CC. Now stamina deal with low magica for dots when using purge, that is fair. THAT IS CALLED FRICKING BALANCE. We finally get some real cross class balance and the "easymoders" lose their minds.
Sorry but that’s just not the case. I’ll walk you through the why. First of all, all stamina classes already have to use at least one or more magicka skills that likely cost 3-4K magicka, secondly the main drain for magicka classes is dealing with CC. But not only do CC grant an immunity there are also pots that provide this. And as of Summerset you’ve got race against time so all magicka classes have snare removal. This means that break free should really be the only drain. If you want to strategically dodge roll or sprint that’s on you for resource management. There is no immunity or cooldown on dots. So as soon as you cast purge people just recast. It’s not at all comparable. Also I never have stam issues on my mag DK and I use block and dodge roll fairly frequently with a 15k stam pool. On my Stamplar I have to run a 17k mag pool. Honestly your complaints are baseless and not well informed.
And yet another argument where the attempt is made to justify why it is ok for magica users to work with a limted sta pool when attempting to counter damage but stamina users somehow should never be expected to do so with a limited magica pool.
You can be successful using purge snd Hots as a counter. Several sta players have already posted just that fact and are doing is successfully. So it would seem the players who know the game can do it. All I have read so far against it have added up to some players frustrated they can not face roll dps anymore in pvp.
No amount of ad hominems will change that.
Spamming dots is the definition of face roll dps.
And there isn't a single good player out there who says the dots are fine, the only people defending the current implementation are people with limited knowledge who are zergsurfing or people who have never stepped into PvP and now like how easily they can reach decent dps numbers, which are again no top tier players as the top pvers also hate the changes as it makes the whole game stale and boring on every single spec.
4 -
Skwor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭edges_endgame wrote: »Emma_Overload wrote: »DOTs are fine.
What needs to be nerfed is Cloak and Purge. Nightblades and Templars should have to suffer DOTs like the rest of us!
LOL.... Everyone can slot purge. I am not playing NB or Templar, but I sacrifice one slot to purge. Why don't you?
Becuase all that player really wants is to destroy any other class that is not their preferred class.
Anyone calling to nerf Templar has totally lost it. Especially to nerf a 5 year old skill no one has really cared about until now. A skill any class can have.
Magica deal with low stamina for CC. Now stamina deal with low magica for dots when using purge, that is fair. THAT IS CALLED FRICKING BALANCE. We finally get some real cross class balance and the "easymoders" lose their minds.
Sorry but that’s just not the case. I’ll walk you through the why. First of all, all stamina classes already have to use at least one or more magicka skills that likely cost 3-4K magicka, secondly the main drain for magicka classes is dealing with CC. But not only do CC grant an immunity there are also pots that provide this. And as of Summerset you’ve got race against time so all magicka classes have snare removal. This means that break free should really be the only drain. If you want to strategically dodge roll or sprint that’s on you for resource management. There is no immunity or cooldown on dots. So as soon as you cast purge people just recast. It’s not at all comparable. Also I never have stam issues on my mag DK and I use block and dodge roll fairly frequently with a 15k stam pool. On my Stamplar I have to run a 17k mag pool. Honestly your complaints are baseless and not well informed.
And yet another argument where the attempt is made to justify why it is ok for magica users to work with a limted sta pool when attempting to counter damage but stamina users somehow should never be expected to do so with a limited magica pool.
You can be successful using purge snd Hots as a counter. Several sta players have already posted just that fact and are doing is successfully. So it would seem the players who know the game can do it. All I have read so far against it have added up to some players frustrated they can not face roll dps anymore in pvp.
No amount of ad hominems will change that.
Spamming dots is the definition of face roll dps.
And there isn't a single good player out there who says the dots are fine, the only people defending the current implementation are people with limited knowledge who are zergsurfing or people who have never stepped into PvP and now like how easily they can reach decent dps numbers, which are again no top tier players as the top pvers also hate the changes as it makes the whole game stale and boring on every single spec.
I can dismiss you argument in that it uses a common sophist' tool of reducto ad ridiculum. The statement "And there isn't a single good player out there who says the dots are fine" flat out asserts that any disagreeing are just a poor players, ergo you have no cogent point and at this stage are forced to use attacks on those who differ in opinion.
Good luck trying to convince anyone with that line of discussion.
Edited by Skwor on August 20, 2019 10:47AM2 -
FoulSnowpaw✭✭✭People in pvp be applying 5 dots in 2 seconds because of animation canceling. This doesn't even include poison, weapon enchants, and pets. PVP is broke. ZOS please fix.0 -
IamDestiny✭✭✭edges_endgame wrote: »DukeDiewalker wrote: »The "adaptation" was to not run around with 8K Stamina and stack your Magicka into oblivion....
You cannot even counter build against DOT spam with stamina classes without completely switching to a magicka class.
Besides, every magicka class except templar and maybe necro are heavily affected by that too.
And don't even start with the alliance skill purge... that's like defending the busted siege damage from a couple of months ago by saying "Hey, everyone just slot Siege Shield" 4Head
It's not that simple.
Actually... It is. Slot purge. Stop the complaint.
And don't stand in oils or siege.
OH and PURGE
Either you are a troll or you have no idea about how to actually play the game.
Choose one of the above.
Its nothing personal but "Slot Purge" is not the answer
If by any chance you would actually play pvp you would know that removing 3 effects for 5k magicka is not worth it and you wont survive by doing so, because the moment you use purge that dot spamming person will just re-apply those dots, because hey they hit harder than actual non dot abilities who require a gcd. Good Job you just wasted 5k magicka!
Yes the efficiency of spamming dots compared to someone who uses non-dot abilities is huge. It frees up a lot of gcd that said person can use for something else.
For example a magblade who slots 4 dots does not hit a single merciless resolve or incap, no cc slotted, and just spams dots and shields and somehow does fine is the epitome of whats wrong in this meta that caters towards casuals
But hey i could go on and in detail explain to you the flaws of this game but i do not wanna blow your mind
We do not even address the issue that now every class has access to fear via turn evil or corrosive armor via onslaught (maybe we should give every class streak & cloak now too) or how living dark immobilizes you every 0.5 secs. The fact that ballista is broken and desyncs your health.
You know "those small number of people that complain" actually are people that know how to play the game and dont need those zerg pocket healers, because when you zerg you do not notice such things
Okay, then maybe don't 1vX. Go with an ally and then you can purge each other, or fight people one on one. You don't balance a game by saying, well jee I don't know if this guy will be able to kill a zerg, maybe we shouldn't nerf that.
Ok thats by far the dumbest statement in this entire thread. So what your saying is solo play should not be possible or just 1v1 because who cares about skilled gameplay just spam 2 dots over and over and called that skill?2 -
Skwor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭FoulSnowpaw wrote: »People in pvp be applying 5 dots in 2 seconds because of animation canceling. This doesn't even include poison, weapon enchants, and pets. PVP is broke. ZOS please fix.
LoL yet burst damage using animation cancelling resulting in insta-kills is ok? That has been happening for 5 years in pvp. At least dots give you a little time to counter.
Why then is it then bad for dots but ok for burst damage?
The whole animation cancelling thing has been an issue since day one. It is here to stay and has no bearing on the dot discussionEdited by Skwor on August 20, 2019 11:02AM3 -
Nyladreas✭✭✭✭✭
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Purge lmao, with 5.5k hps regen you're back to full in no time.Edited by Nyladreas on August 20, 2019 11:07AM1 -
darthgummibear_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭Unlikely. Sload’s was nerfed quickly but it was a collective outcry from the entire community. Unfortunately a lot of casuals are happy with the ease of play in this dot meta. I actually wonder if we will see more movement in this direction. What I find comical is that all the people who bitched and complained about getting 1vXd because of the so called “meta” builds are now perfectly fine crutching off this new meta. It’s really and truly astounding how many people would rather blame their short comings on sets and then so readily jump to the defense of the cheesiest changes we’ve seen yet. It’s pathetic really.
My hope is that some of the theory crafters and hardcore players come up with some really OP bs dot builds and just start recking people with them and then the casuals will eventually start complaining as well.
It's not a new meta because you can counter it easily, aka it's not broken. Adapt.
You have no idea what you’re talking about. Your posts consistently prove that. Entropy on my SB mag DK defensive bar with 35k mag and 1900 spell damage has a 21k tooltip. Rending slashes on my Stamplar with 3.9k wpn damage and 36k stamina has a slightly lower tooltip. If that’s your definition of balanced then we can’t even have a conversation.
“Adapt” is what people say when they’re desperately clutching onto the OP skill that’s keeping them relevant and they want to try and downplay people who don’t agree with them.
That sounds like magika scaling is broken compared to stamina. One way or another it will hopefully get evened out. I play stamina and do ok, but it's frustrating to see magika toons with comparable gear doing more damage for essentially the same thing.0 -
IamDestiny✭✭✭
Purge lmao, with 5.5k hps regen you're back to full in no time.
Can you read the entire thread im pretty i have laid out why purge is not viable and if you would do anything but zerging you would know that.3 -
BlackMadara✭✭✭✭darthgummibear_ESO wrote: »Unlikely. Sload’s was nerfed quickly but it was a collective outcry from the entire community. Unfortunately a lot of casuals are happy with the ease of play in this dot meta. I actually wonder if we will see more movement in this direction. What I find comical is that all the people who bitched and complained about getting 1vXd because of the so called “meta” builds are now perfectly fine crutching off this new meta. It’s really and truly astounding how many people would rather blame their short comings on sets and then so readily jump to the defense of the cheesiest changes we’ve seen yet. It’s pathetic really.
My hope is that some of the theory crafters and hardcore players come up with some really OP bs dot builds and just start recking people with them and then the casuals will eventually start complaining as well.
It's not a new meta because you can counter it easily, aka it's not broken. Adapt.
You have no idea what you’re talking about. Your posts consistently prove that. Entropy on my SB mag DK defensive bar with 35k mag and 1900 spell damage has a 21k tooltip. Rending slashes on my Stamplar with 3.9k wpn damage and 36k stamina has a slightly lower tooltip. If that’s your definition of balanced then we can’t even have a conversation.
“Adapt” is what people say when they’re desperately clutching onto the OP skill that’s keeping them relevant and they want to try and downplay people who don’t agree with them.
That sounds like magika scaling is broken compared to stamina. One way or another it will hopefully get evened out. I play stamina and do ok, but it's frustrating to see magika toons with comparable gear doing more damage for essentially the same thing.
Don't listen to those types of posts. Entropy lasts 12 seconds, and rending lasts 10. The DoT standard also takes direct damage from the skill into account. Rending has two direct damage applications then the DoT. So if his Rending has a slightly lower tooltip over 10s than his mDK's entropy over 12s AND does direct damage, then rending is doing more damage.
All unmorphed single target DoTs scale to the same dps when taking into account direct damage in the skills and having no passives unlocked.0 -
BohnT2✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭edges_endgame wrote: »Emma_Overload wrote: »DOTs are fine.
What needs to be nerfed is Cloak and Purge. Nightblades and Templars should have to suffer DOTs like the rest of us!
LOL.... Everyone can slot purge. I am not playing NB or Templar, but I sacrifice one slot to purge. Why don't you?
Becuase all that player really wants is to destroy any other class that is not their preferred class.
Anyone calling to nerf Templar has totally lost it. Especially to nerf a 5 year old skill no one has really cared about until now. A skill any class can have.
Magica deal with low stamina for CC. Now stamina deal with low magica for dots when using purge, that is fair. THAT IS CALLED FRICKING BALANCE. We finally get some real cross class balance and the "easymoders" lose their minds.
Sorry but that’s just not the case. I’ll walk you through the why. First of all, all stamina classes already have to use at least one or more magicka skills that likely cost 3-4K magicka, secondly the main drain for magicka classes is dealing with CC. But not only do CC grant an immunity there are also pots that provide this. And as of Summerset you’ve got race against time so all magicka classes have snare removal. This means that break free should really be the only drain. If you want to strategically dodge roll or sprint that’s on you for resource management. There is no immunity or cooldown on dots. So as soon as you cast purge people just recast. It’s not at all comparable. Also I never have stam issues on my mag DK and I use block and dodge roll fairly frequently with a 15k stam pool. On my Stamplar I have to run a 17k mag pool. Honestly your complaints are baseless and not well informed.
And yet another argument where the attempt is made to justify why it is ok for magica users to work with a limted sta pool when attempting to counter damage but stamina users somehow should never be expected to do so with a limited magica pool.
You can be successful using purge snd Hots as a counter. Several sta players have already posted just that fact and are doing is successfully. So it would seem the players who know the game can do it. All I have read so far against it have added up to some players frustrated they can not face roll dps anymore in pvp.
No amount of ad hominems will change that.
Spamming dots is the definition of face roll dps.
And there isn't a single good player out there who says the dots are fine, the only people defending the current implementation are people with limited knowledge who are zergsurfing or people who have never stepped into PvP and now like how easily they can reach decent dps numbers, which are again no top tier players as the top pvers also hate the changes as it makes the whole game stale and boring on every single spec.
I can dismiss you argument in that it uses a common sophist' tool of reducto ad ridiculum. The statement "And there isn't a single good player out there who says the dots are fine" flat out asserts that any disagreeing are just a poor players, ergo you have no cogent point and at this stage are forced to use attacks on those who differ in opinion.
Good luck trying to convince anyone with that line of discussion.
Alright then let's do a short numbers game for you:
We use the example of a DK here because it doesn't inherit a source of purge in his class toolkit.
In non cp both break free and efficient purge cost 5400 stam/mag.
CC immunity is 7 seconds that means in 70 seconds we can only break free a maximum of 11 times (10 if we aren't stunned at 0 seconds) assuming we actually get stunned on cooldown.
We'll use the 10 purges so we get even numbers here it won't matter in the end.
That's 54,000 stam spent over 70 seconds for break free.
Meaning if we had to completely get that amount of stam via regen and we have no stam at the beginning we would need a stam regen of:
54000/35 (regen happens every 2 seconds)
Which results in ~1500 stamregen required to keep up the break free for 70 seconds.
But we don't have 0 stam when this experiment starts right?
So now we use a 15k stampool which we directly subtract from the 54,000 required stamina resulting in 39k stamina required and which brings our stamina regen requirement down to ~1.1k regen.
Most builds feature a minimum regen of about 700 without any investment. So now we only have to reach 400 regen via other means which are different for all specs but exist for each one of them.
For a DK that would be helping hands (restoring 990 stam on casting a earthen heart ability like fossilize))
And battle roar which returns 46 per ultimate point up to the cost of the ultimate used.
As we want to stun the enemy as often as possible we'll also use fossilize every 7 seconds resulting in 9.9k stamina over 70 seconds or 280 stamregen.
So we need 120 more regen and that's easily covered by helping hands even when only gaining the 3 ult per sec from light attacks as it results in ~240 stam and mag regen.
We also haven't covered the useage of tri pots (8k resources every 45 seconds or in the long run 355 stam and mag regen.
Summing this all up leaves us with: 1.5k stamregen and wow this means we can even sustain the break free if we start with 0 stamina or if we start with 15k stamina we can use 400*35 = 14000 stamina as we want to, while still being able to always CC break.
For you this means 26 seconds of sprinting if you're using 5 light and have the grace passive unlocked.
Also CC break works all the time and doesn't scale with the number of enemies you're facing because the Cc immunity is on you which means no matter if 1 or 70 enemies you can't be CC'd more than once every 7 seconds.
Now let's head over to something that does scale with the number of enemies you're fighting while also loses effectiveness when facing multiple people and is tied to luck.
As explained in an earlier post you often have 10 negative effects on you depending on your enemy you have more than 3 strong dots on you but purge only helps vs 3 of them and for every additional enemy the number of dots on you increases further and you can still only remove 3 of them.
Let's use the same example as before: fight over 70 seconds, purging every 7 seconds, total purges =10
Cost for this are 54,000 magicka.
The total amount of negative effects removed is 30.
We will need 1.5k magregen to keep up with purging every 7 seconds or 1.1k if we have a starting pool of 15k magicka.
But here comes the issue, we also have class skills we have to use as a DK and they come with a magicka drain, namely volatile armor and cauterize, both skills are required to be used as not using them puts us at a direct disadvantage.
Volatile costs 2700 magicka every 20 seconds and cauterize costs 2160 magicka every 15 seconds resulting in a drain of 558 magickaregen (cost*2/druation).
This increases our need for magicka to 1.6k and 2k magregen depending on the scenario.
However there's no such thing as helping hands return in a DKs toolkit, but helping hand stays the same so 480 regen here:
Resulting in a need for 1,15k or 1.55k magregen again which we have to get via direct regen, remember how we had 700 regen as a base in the other example?
Well even with pots we need ~100 or 400 magregen to sustain a purge every 7 seconds.
See that we're not even talking about having mag to spare anymore?
Which leads us to the next big issue purge isn't as reliable as CC break because CC break directly counters the CC and isn't attached to any luck, you use it and you're no longer CC'd. Purge is completely different here in the example with 10 negative effects out of which 3 dots are the chance to have them removed in one go is less than 3% for one single cast, for 10 consecutive casts the chance is 2,0*10^(-16) to always remove the 3 dots you want to remove.
Not even winning the lottery is connected with such a small chance of success.
And that's just the example for 10 negative effects, we haven't even covered the issues when you're facing multiple enemies who all put additional dots on you up to a number that you're unable to remove them all even when spamming purge till you run out of resources.
The sustain numbers shift even further in favour of CC break when we look at Cp as you can easily reduce the cost of CC break via CP to 4k (as well as the oh so important sprinting) but none for purge while the number of debuffs increases in CP due to siphoner and tactician.
As you see your whole argument is flawed and i advise putting lots of effort into your next posts on the forums if you don't want to make a fool of yourself.
//granted those scenarios use generalizations and ignore some things to have an easier application of the topic//5 -
Skwor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭edges_endgame wrote: »Emma_Overload wrote: »DOTs are fine.
What needs to be nerfed is Cloak and Purge. Nightblades and Templars should have to suffer DOTs like the rest of us!
LOL.... Everyone can slot purge. I am not playing NB or Templar, but I sacrifice one slot to purge. Why don't you?
Becuase all that player really wants is to destroy any other class that is not their preferred class.
Anyone calling to nerf Templar has totally lost it. Especially to nerf a 5 year old skill no one has really cared about until now. A skill any class can have.
Magica deal with low stamina for CC. Now stamina deal with low magica for dots when using purge, that is fair. THAT IS CALLED FRICKING BALANCE. We finally get some real cross class balance and the "easymoders" lose their minds.
Sorry but that’s just not the case. I’ll walk you through the why. First of all, all stamina classes already have to use at least one or more magicka skills that likely cost 3-4K magicka, secondly the main drain for magicka classes is dealing with CC. But not only do CC grant an immunity there are also pots that provide this. And as of Summerset you’ve got race against time so all magicka classes have snare removal. This means that break free should really be the only drain. If you want to strategically dodge roll or sprint that’s on you for resource management. There is no immunity or cooldown on dots. So as soon as you cast purge people just recast. It’s not at all comparable. Also I never have stam issues on my mag DK and I use block and dodge roll fairly frequently with a 15k stam pool. On my Stamplar I have to run a 17k mag pool. Honestly your complaints are baseless and not well informed.
And yet another argument where the attempt is made to justify why it is ok for magica users to work with a limted sta pool when attempting to counter damage but stamina users somehow should never be expected to do so with a limited magica pool.
You can be successful using purge snd Hots as a counter. Several sta players have already posted just that fact and are doing is successfully. So it would seem the players who know the game can do it. All I have read so far against it have added up to some players frustrated they can not face roll dps anymore in pvp.
No amount of ad hominems will change that.
Spamming dots is the definition of face roll dps.
And there isn't a single good player out there who says the dots are fine, the only people defending the current implementation are people with limited knowledge who are zergsurfing or people who have never stepped into PvP and now like how easily they can reach decent dps numbers, which are again no top tier players as the top pvers also hate the changes as it makes the whole game stale and boring on every single spec.
I can dismiss you argument in that it uses a common sophist' tool of reducto ad ridiculum. The statement "And there isn't a single good player out there who says the dots are fine" flat out asserts that any disagreeing are just a poor players, ergo you have no cogent point and at this stage are forced to use attacks on those who differ in opinion.
Good luck trying to convince anyone with that line of discussion.
Alright then let's do a short numbers game for you:
We use the example of a DK here because it doesn't inherit a source of purge in his class toolkit.
In non cp both break free and efficient purge cost 5400 stam/mag.
CC immunity is 7 seconds that means in 70 seconds we can only break free a maximum of 11 times (10 if we aren't stunned at 0 seconds) assuming we actually get stunned on cooldown.
We'll use the 10 purges so we get even numbers here it won't matter in the end.
That's 54,000 stam spent over 70 seconds for break free.
Meaning if we had to completely get that amount of stam via regen and we have no stam at the beginning we would need a stam regen of:
54000/35 (regen happens every 2 seconds)
Which results in ~1500 stamregen required to keep up the break free for 70 seconds.
But we don't have 0 stam when this experiment starts right?
So now we use a 15k stampool which we directly subtract from the 54,000 required stamina resulting in 39k stamina required and which brings our stamina regen requirement down to ~1.1k regen.
Most builds feature a minimum regen of about 700 without any investment. So now we only have to reach 400 regen via other means which are different for all specs but exist for each one of them.
For a DK that would be helping hands (restoring 990 stam on casting a earthen heart ability like fossilize))
And battle roar which returns 46 per ultimate point up to the cost of the ultimate used.
As we want to stun the enemy as often as possible we'll also use fossilize every 7 seconds resulting in 9.9k stamina over 70 seconds or 280 stamregen.
So we need 120 more regen and that's easily covered by helping hands even when only gaining the 3 ult per sec from light attacks as it results in ~240 stam and mag regen.
We also haven't covered the useage of tri pots (8k resources every 45 seconds or in the long run 355 stam and mag regen.
Summing this all up leaves us with: 1.5k stamregen and wow this means we can even sustain the break free if we start with 0 stamina or if we start with 15k stamina we can use 400*35 = 14000 stamina as we want to, while still being able to always CC break.
For you this means 26 seconds of sprinting if you're using 5 light and have the grace passive unlocked.
Also CC break works all the time and doesn't scale with the number of enemies you're facing because the Cc immunity is on you which means no matter if 1 or 70 enemies you can't be CC'd more than once every 7 seconds.
Now let's head over to something that does scale with the number of enemies you're fighting while also loses effectiveness when facing multiple people and is tied to luck.
As explained in an earlier post you often have 10 negative effects on you depending on your enemy you have more than 3 strong dots on you but purge only helps vs 3 of them and for every additional enemy the number of dots on you increases further and you can still only remove 3 of them.
Let's use the same example as before: fight over 70 seconds, purging every 7 seconds, total purges =10
Cost for this are 54,000 magicka.
The total amount of negative effects removed is 30.
We will need 1.5k magregen to keep up with purging every 7 seconds or 1.1k if we have a starting pool of 15k magicka.
But here comes the issue, we also have class skills we have to use as a DK and they come with a magicka drain, namely volatile armor and cauterize, both skills are required to be used as not using them puts us at a direct disadvantage.
Volatile costs 2700 magicka every 20 seconds and cauterize costs 2160 magicka every 15 seconds resulting in a drain of 558 magickaregen (cost*2/druation).
This increases our need for magicka to 1.6k and 2k magregen depending on the scenario.
However there's no such thing as helping hands return in a DKs toolkit, but helping hand stays the same so 480 regen here:
Resulting in a need for 1,15k or 1.55k magregen again which we have to get via direct regen, remember how we had 700 regen as a base in the other example?
Well even with pots we need ~100 or 400 magregen to sustain a purge every 7 seconds.
See that we're not even talking about having mag to spare anymore?
Which leads us to the next big issue purge isn't as reliable as CC break because CC break directly counters the CC and isn't attached to any luck, you use it and you're no longer CC'd. Purge is completely different here in the example with 10 negative effects out of which 3 dots are the chance to have them removed in one go is less than 3% for one single cast, for 10 consecutive casts the chance is 2,0*10^(-16) to always remove the 3 dots you want to remove.
Not even winning the lottery is connected with such a small chance of success.
And that's just the example for 10 negative effects, we haven't even covered the issues when you're facing multiple enemies who all put additional dots on you up to a number that you're unable to remove them all even when spamming purge till you run out of resources.
The sustain numbers shift even further in favour of CC break when we look at Cp as you can easily reduce the cost of CC break via CP to 4k (as well as the oh so important sprinting) but none for purge while the number of debuffs increases in CP due to siphoner and tactician.
As you see your whole argument is flawed and i advise putting lots of effort into your next posts on the forums if you don't want to make a fool of yourself.
//granted those scenarios use generalizations and ignore some things to have an easier application of the topic//
Nice job on the response, seriously I mean it.
I have no need to be as detailed. One point will do. As a magica user I have at best 3 maybe 4 dodges in me until my sta pool is empty. Add blocks, break frees and sprint and it is way worse. I have never been able to CC break 10 times in a row.
I do just fine with that limited resource. Now why is it you need to effectively spam purge 10 times in a row if magica dedicated users work with much less than that for the stamina tools dodge, break free, block and sprint?Edited by Skwor on August 20, 2019 12:51PM0 -
chuckythexii✭✭Unlikely. Sload’s was nerfed quickly but it was a collective outcry from the entire community. Unfortunately a lot of casuals are happy with the ease of play in this dot meta. I actually wonder if we will see more movement in this direction. What I find comical is that all the people who bitched and complained about getting 1vXd because of the so called “meta” builds are now perfectly fine crutching off this new meta. It’s really and truly astounding how many people would rather blame their short comings on sets and then so readily jump to the defense of the cheesiest changes we’ve seen yet. It’s pathetic really.
My hope is that some of the theory crafters and hardcore players come up with some really OP bs dot builds and just start recking people with them and then the casuals will eventually start complaining as well.
It's not a new meta because you can counter it easily, aka it's not broken. Adapt.
You have no idea what you’re talking about. Your posts consistently prove that. Entropy on my SB mag DK defensive bar with 35k mag and 1900 spell damage has a 21k tooltip. Rending slashes on my Stamplar with 3.9k wpn damage and 36k stamina has a slightly lower tooltip. If that’s your definition of balanced then we can’t even have a conversation.
“Adapt” is what people say when they’re desperately clutching onto the OP skill that’s keeping them relevant and they want to try and downplay people who don’t agree with them.
I Don't think you know what you are talking about, or worse being intentionally deceptive. over how much time is that 21k damage being applied? its like what 2-3k dps? My Critblade can burst 20k dps without using DoT's. It's basically universally known that Alpha damage is superior to DoT in almost every game, especially in a game like ESO where there is so much healing, passive regen alone can mitigate some DoT's and a build for it will mitigate multiple.5
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Sx5Rh-bkW9I