My group of very dedicated ESO friends are dropping like flies. Here's why.

berzerkdethb14_ESO1 · August 2019

While many of our friends who preferred casting have left for the same reasons expressed by Grandma in the following thread, so I will not go into that here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/490064/whats-the-point-of-magicka-vs-stamina-anymore-pve#latest (check it out and really read it. I know most of you still around are melee stam people, but it explains the perspective of those who prefer to play casters) In short, Magicka no longer offers any reason to play when stamina can do literally everything better, easier, and magicka is forced at melee to compete anyway with beast traps, zaan, and etc.

My tight-nit group of ESO friends (about 25 of us) has been fairly steady for years, but I have been seeing them quit one after the other, or give excuses why they can't log in anymore since this last patch. It's down to about five of us now, and we are lucky to even get pledges done.

I have personally been looking forward to this patch from a DPS perspective. As a dot caster in EQ, WoW, and pretty much any game that gives me the ability, this meta has been exciting for me. It dawned on me, however, how short sighted I was when discussing why they are going to other games with them. The first thing they almost always say is that combat isn't fun anymore. Playing the game isn't fun if I don't enjoy the combat. these are fair statements, but I was confused because I was having a blast with the new meta.

If you don't like juggling dots . . . lots of dots . . . this patch WOULD feel clunky and annoying to you. This is the problem with modern ESO. Classes don't mean much and everyone plays the same, so choosing a class based on the type of style you like to play isn't possible. Everyone who enjoys juggling dots (like me) is happy as can be, but those who do not will not enjoy the combat. If they don't enjoy the combat they won't enjoy the game.

If you want ESO to prosper class identity MUST mean something. Taking the easy road and just balancing around generic abilities is NOT going to work, wow learned this lesson the hard way.

Use passive abilities to make some classes bursty, some dot heavy, and etc. I have even noticed that there are fewer people logging into my auction guilds and fewer people in the cities I frequent.

People are complaining for a reason. They DO NOT like what this patch has done to ESO, and the problem is that it gives anyone who even wants to slightly compete NO option but to be a heavy dot juggling caster or melee (really just melee).

This is all very unfortunate because ESO is still the only MMO I enjoy. I like nearly everything about it, but this is a seriously big problem.

idk · August 2019

Grandma got a lot wrong there. For starters, the balance between stamina and magicka has swung back and forth many times since the game launched.

Further, Zos has been heavy handed with changes to this game for years. We have adapted/adjusted each time. While some have left the game as a result the population as a whole has grown.

The reason I find players leave is mostly due to either RL changes or because their group gets boring due to the leaders not keeping the action going.

It is odd your friends stayed after morrowind. An update that required a great deal of changes with the hammer given to sustain.

Edit: it would have made more sense to have just added to Grandma's thread instead of creating a thread essentially saying the same thing.

SirDopey · August 2019

Meh, I'm loving this patch. Sure I've retired my NBs but over the last 4 and a bit years I've retired my Templar, Sorc and DKs all to pull them out of retirement when a patch cycle suits.

This Patch cycle wasn't when I noticed a lot of old timers leaving, was more like just after summerset that the exodus began. Starting to see some old players return though.....

TequilaFire · August 2019

If they would just fix some broken aspects of the game it would make the bitter balancing pill a lot easier to swallow.

Synnastix · August 2019

DLC dungeons too gimmicky / hard, got bored. Playing modded single player games until something interesting happens.

Mrs_Malaka · August 2019

SirDopey wrote: »

Starting to see some old players return though.....

Yes, but if you blink you will miss them

Rake · August 2019

2.3/10

cmvet · August 2019

idk wrote: »

Grandma got a lot wrong there. For starters, the balance between stamina and magicka has swung back and forth many times since the game launched.

Further, Zos has been heavy handed with changes to this game for years. We have adapted/adjusted each time. While some have left the game as a result the population as a whole has grown.

The reason I find players leave is mostly due to either RL changes or because their group gets boring due to the leaders not keeping the action going.

It is odd your friends stayed after morrowind. An update that required a great deal of changes with the hammer given to sustain.

Edit: it would have made more sense to have just added to Grandma's thread instead of creating a thread essentially saying the same thing.

I agree with some of your toughts but strongly disagree with "...the population as a whole has grown". Really, do you think that? Were you around 2 years ago when 3 different cyrodill servers were pop-locked at a time, while handling 75 more people per than they currently do? Kaal is the only server that is ever locked at certain times while the others rarely even have 1 bar of 1 alliance.

2-3 years ago I had a much easier time on DPS toons to join dungeon runs with activity finder than I do now. If you are a tank or healer, you will get grouped almost immediately because there are people waiting forever because there are fewer people running dungeons.

I remember Mournhold and belkarth just being massive hoards of people. Now they might be busy on a saturday, mid day. The population as a whole is not larger now than it has been in the past. The last 12-16 months has seen a decline just from a noticed perspective of playing in-game. Sure we get a bump in returning players immediately after a dlc or add-on release, but those bumps seem short-lived (1-2 weeks).

SkoobySnaxx · August 2019

I play stam and i dont like the upcomming dlc. I like AOE cleave damage. Now BiS dps is single target dot.... I have no clue why they nerfed aoe's. even healing seems really boring next update. theyre killing their own game. RIP vma bow

cmvet · August 2019

SkoobySnaxx wrote: »

I play stam and i dont like the upcomming dlc. I like AOE cleave damage. Now BiS dps is single target dot.... I have no clue why they nerfed aoe's. even healing seems really boring next update. theyre killing their own game. RIP vma bow

Try the blackrose prison bow next patch.

mongoLC · August 2019

Yeah they tried changing the lead combat designer but that made it worse. They need to replace the Creative Director the Lead Gameplay Designer and the Lead Content Designer. All three of those guys should have seen how bad pvp was and not promoted him to combat lead and made *** way worse.

Its a *** show game is dead as hell.

HowlKimchi · August 2019

PVE in this game is so boring because every class is essentialy the same. Mag or Stam.

it's basically always la weaving with a rotation of dot dot dot, spammable, dot dot dot. with little variation based on class. I can see why people would get bored of ESO PVE.

Good thing im here for PVP, because even though balance isn't always good. Each class is always so different from the others, and theorycrafting/buildcrafting is soooo fun in ESO.

idk · August 2019

cmvet wrote: »

idk wrote: »

Grandma got a lot wrong there. For starters, the balance between stamina and magicka has swung back and forth many times since the game launched.

Further, Zos has been heavy handed with changes to this game for years. We have adapted/adjusted each time. While some have left the game as a result the population as a whole has grown.

The reason I find players leave is mostly due to either RL changes or because their group gets boring due to the leaders not keeping the action going.

It is odd your friends stayed after morrowind. An update that required a great deal of changes with the hammer given to sustain.

Edit: it would have made more sense to have just added to Grandma's thread instead of creating a thread essentially saying the same thing.

I agree with some of your toughts but strongly disagree with "...the population as a whole has grown". Really, do you think that? Were you around 2 years ago when 3 different cyrodill servers were pop-locked at a time, while handling 75 more people per than they currently do? Kaal is the only server that is ever locked at certain times while the others rarely even have 1 bar of 1 alliance.

2-3 years ago I had a much easier time on DPS toons to join dungeon runs with activity finder than I do now. If you are a tank or healer, you will get grouped almost immediately because there are people waiting forever because there are fewer people running dungeons.

I remember Mournhold and belkarth just being massive hoards of people. Now they might be busy on a saturday, mid day. The population as a whole is not larger now than it has been in the past. The last 12-16 months has seen a decline just from a noticed perspective of playing in-game. Sure we get a bump in returning players immediately after a dlc or add-on release, but those bumps seem short-lived (1-2 weeks).

Speaking to the population. Using Cyrodiil as an indictor shows nothing about the population of the game as this game is overwhelmingly PvE based which makes since because most of the game is PvE. (BTW, I have been in this game since launch which was well before Zos reduced the Cyrodiil pop caps multiple times)

The GF issues we have experienced is due to the GF being overloaded. Granted it happens during peak times but it has not gone away. Hopefully it will be fixed soon.

Further, EU, and to a lesser extent NA, had issues with overloaded populations for the entire game. Zos had to add hardware to accommodate the population and implemented a queue for logging into the game on the PC EU server. All due to population load.

If that is not enough for you, we have one metric that measures a portion of the population. Steam Charts shows the activity of ESO players whos games are linked to Steam. Granted, this is a sliver but it is the only decent metric on the mater we have. July 2019 has a higher pop average and peak population than July 2018 and again more than July 2017 and again for July 2016. That is also how analysts look at data like that, same month over different years and those numbers spell success. BTW, comparing June and July does not work because of seasonal fluctuations.

https://steamcharts.com/app/306130

So do I think the population of ESO is growing, yes.

wishlist14 · August 2019

It must be hard for you to be loosing your friends like that? Have they found another game they prefer to play atm?

My main is stamblade and I miss my caltrops.
Believe it or not I have done more vet dungeons on my magden.
All classes are feeling a bit off tbh. It's the change...I don't like change forced upon me.

I was struggling with changes a few years ago but nothing like this. The whole reason I made one of each class and mag /stam was so I felt I had choices but then they go messing around with the races so I graciously use the race change tokens they gifted us. I adapted but heck now this? They continue to meddle with races and shuffle mag/stam like one shuffles a deck of cards.

Race tokens are great but how about having to change a race we love and connect with and have a story for or having to change our name to suit new race.

I don't blame your friends for getting fed up. I am getting there myself and i love eso.Not saying your friends didnt love it too.

On top of all this there's the monitising of skill lines aswell. Something in me died when they announced this decision, im still shell shocked about it. My only condolance is when I see other players like myself running around picking up sky shards and doing psijiic questline or grinding dolmens.

Im dreading the day they start selling level 50 tokens or
Selling cp tokens
Or once they sold enough skill line tokens, the class tokens
Nothing is sacred anymore
Im close to leaving myself and if i leave my partner will leave. Not that we will be missed .
Maybe one day when eso has the same sad ending that wow had and i start getting those emails offering me discounts for my return...then it will be too little too late. It will happen, it's just a matter of time
I hate putting my frustration out for all to see but i trully believe I have lost hope in my favourite game so far in my life.
I get it that many players dont feel like I do but they are not me so their opinions are respectfully their own.

Grollok76 · August 2019

wishlist14 wrote: »

All classes are feeling a bit off tbh. It's the change...I don't like change forced upon me.

The problem is not that there have been changes. But (for me) the amount and severity of changes they threw at us don't feel like a shift in "meta" but like a completely different game.

Sadly it's a game I absolutely do NOT enjoy - and I tried.

wishlist14 · August 2019

Grollok76 wrote: »

wishlist14 wrote: »

All classes are feeling a bit off tbh. It's the change...I don't like change forced upon me.

The problem is not that there have been changes. But (for me) the amount and severity of changes they threw on us don't feel like a shift in "meta" but like a completely different game.

Sadly it's a game I absolutely do NOT enjoy - and I tried.

I agree that these changes have indeed been severe i should have stressed that in my comments, thank you.

Dusk_Coven · August 2019

HaruKamui wrote: »

it's basically always la weaving with a rotation of dot dot dot, spammable, dot dot dot. with little variation based on class. I can see why people would get bored of ESO PVE.

But what is the alternative? No matter how they do skills you'll have a "best rotation" and there would be no reason to deviate from it. Play any rotation long enough and you'll get bored.

Allowing players to change class in an FFXIV style (which includes dedicated gear storage for being able to play literally every class) would instantly rejuvenate the game, but even then only for so long as not everyone is going to play every class.

All ZOS or any MMO dev can do is throw out another challenge that piques your interest in a different way -- i.e., mechanics. Like the move-the-tile gimmick in the new dungeon. But it's just another gimmick. They'll dress it up with a different SFX a few times till that gets stale.

Saril_Durzam · August 2019

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

HaruKamui wrote: »

it's basically always la weaving with a rotation of dot dot dot, spammable, dot dot dot. with little variation based on class. I can see why people would get bored of ESO PVE.

But what is the alternative? No matter how they do skills you'll have a "best rotation" and there would be no reason to deviate from it. Play any rotation long enough and you'll get bored.

Allowing players to change class in an FFXIV style (which includes dedicated gear storage for being able to play literally every class) would instantly rejuvenate the game, but even then only for so long as not everyone is going to play every class.

All ZOS or any MMO dev can do is throw out another challenge that piques your interest in a different way -- i.e., mechanics. Like the move-the-tile gimmick in the new dungeon. But it's just another gimmick. They'll dress it up with a different SFX a few times till that gets stale.

I think it´s quite different to press "1-2-swap-1-2-3-3-3-3-swap" than "1-2-3-4-swap-1-2-3-4-5". To me at least it´s quite more stressing due it´s hard to control keys and press some numbers at the time while having to get always diff numbers. Abundancy of dots means lack of spammables and makes rotations a bit ... meh.

heaven13 · August 2019

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

HaruKamui wrote: »

it's basically always la weaving with a rotation of dot dot dot, spammable, dot dot dot. with little variation based on class. I can see why people would get bored of ESO PVE.

But what is the alternative? No matter how they do skills you'll have a "best rotation" and there would be no reason to deviate from it. Play any rotation long enough and you'll get bored.

Allowing players to change class in an FFXIV style (which includes dedicated gear storage for being able to play literally every class) would instantly rejuvenate the game, but even then only for so long as not everyone is going to play every class.

All ZOS or any MMO dev can do is throw out another challenge that piques your interest in a different way -- i.e., mechanics. Like the move-the-tile gimmick in the new dungeon. But it's just another gimmick. They'll dress it up with a different SFX a few times till that gets stale.

But what would be the point of class change tokens now? Almost all magicka characters have the same things on their bars with maybe one or two class skills for flavor, same with stam though overall I think they use even less class skills. Why bother changing to a new class if it's just going to be the same thing you're doing on the current one?

That, to me, is the biggest issue with this patch.

SkoobySnaxx · August 2019

cmvet wrote: »

SkoobySnaxx wrote: »

I play stam and i dont like the upcomming dlc. I like AOE cleave damage. Now BiS dps is single target dot.... I have no clue why they nerfed aoe's. even healing seems really boring next update. theyre killing their own game. RIP vma bow

Try the blackrose prison bow next patch.

Why? That set is ass and its not even aoe damage like vma bow

Kagukan · August 2019

The meta will always change. Adapt if you want or don't. Its up to you. As with any game. If you are no longer having fun, move on. People come and go constantly in a game like this. Always have, always will.

Dusk_Coven · August 2019

heaven13 wrote: »

Dusk_Coven wrote: »

All ZOS or any MMO dev can do is throw out another challenge that piques your interest in a different way -- i.e., mechanics. Like the move-the-tile gimmick in the new dungeon. But it's just another gimmick. They'll dress it up with a different SFX a few times till that gets stale.

But what would be the point of class change tokens now? Almost all magicka characters have the same things on their bars with maybe one or two class skills for flavor, same with stam though overall I think they use even less class skills. Why bother changing to a new class if it's just going to be the same thing you're doing on the current one?

That, to me, is the biggest issue with this patch.

Even if you think the underlying numbers are exactly the same (and you can see some games where they are, such as SWTOR, where they basically have mirrored classes on Jedi and Sith sides) there's the cosmetic difference to trick you into thinking you are doing something new.
That's why devs even bother to have an array of SFX.

They'd be less hand-tied with creativity if they didn't have to balance both PvE AND PvP at the same time. Which is why I really think they should just do one (balance only for PvE performance) and use a proper league system for PvP.

olsborg · August 2019

berzerkdethb14_ESO1 wrote: »

If you don't like juggling dots . . . lots of dots . . . this patch WOULD feel clunky and annoying to you.

I dont and never have enjoyed playing dot builds, and wasnt going to, the problem is...everything not running multiple dots isnt viable, pve or pvp. You either run dots or gtfo. I chose the latter, i might return if things change.

BalticBlues · August 2019

I also see a rapid decline, because the new dev team turned ESO into Elder Stamina Online.

In former times, certain classes were gutted, then revived, then gutted again - no hope for balance. However, nowadays, even entire play styles are gutted (Magicka, Healers) - and balance and gameplay is worse than ever.

I am so fed up playing Stamina again and again that I finally let ESO Plus ran out.

Jaimeh · August 2019

berzerkdethb14_ESO1 wrote: »

If you don't like juggling dots . . . lots of dots . . . this patch WOULD feel clunky and annoying to you. This is the problem with modern ESO. Classes don't mean much and everyone plays the same, so choosing a class based on the type of style you like to play isn't possible. Everyone who enjoys juggling dots (like me) is happy as can be, but those who do not will not enjoy the combat. If they don't enjoy the combat they won't enjoy the game.

If you want ESO to prosper class identity MUST mean something. Taking the easy road and just balancing around generic abilities is NOT going to work, wow learned this lesson the hard way.

Use passive abilities to make some classes bursty, some dot heavy, and etc. I have even noticed that there are fewer people logging into my auction guilds and fewer people in the cities I frequent.

People are complaining for a reason. They DO NOT like what this patch has done to ESO, and the problem is that it gives anyone who even wants to slightly compete NO option but to be a heavy dot juggling caster or melee (really just melee).

I haven't played much since the patch dropped because I honestly feel a little bit lost in regards to my builds. I have to change a few things around for my DDs, and I don't even want to think about my healers... The DoT meta this patch is definitely clunky, too many things to keep track of, and it feels kind of sad to use, for eg., a skill that has a soul-gem fill utility, over class skills. I don't even know what they are trying to achieve at this point, it's plain tiring chasing meta, especially with the compounding factor of RNG in gear drops, and it dampens enthousiasm for new content.

Tigerseye · August 2019

I agree with your friends - multiple dots are ridiculous and being forced to melee, or cast with a staff, is even more stupid.

So, I don't do it.

I use a bow (lol), most of the time, I use one dot, Deep Fissure every four and spam Cutting Dive, the rest of the time, when I'm not healing, or rolling out of trouble (I main a Bosmer!).

I object to the prejudice against ranged weapons, other than staves.

It makes no sense.

If melee takes more damage (which it doesn't always, anyway), give it more defences and make all weapons equal.

Don't strip all damage away from bow, like someone who has never even heard of a proper MMO, let alone played one.

I also hybrid to an extent(!), as I think you should be able to.

It's silly to have the option, but then to make it sub-par.

I don't die much, when I concentrate, but my DPS is obviously crap and I even don't care, because I don't take anything other than decorating seriously in this, frankly, pretty ridiculous game.

I cared at first (hangover from WoW, where I did pretty good damage) and then I realised it was hopeless here, unless you only played one of two ways (which I didn't want to do) and stopped caring.

Shouldn't be that way, but there you go.

Tigerseye · August 2019

Oh and just to add, I do weapon swap to melee (daggers) in dungeons and stuff, if necessary, but if I'm doing dragons, I rarely bother except for some adds.

...and I'm not going to carry around several sets of weapons and gear, some for instances, some for overland, some for dragons, some for this, some for that...

I have no room in my bags, as it is and quite frankly, can't be bothered to remember to switch gear and skills out, all the time.

Karmanorway · August 2019

berzerkdethb14_ESO1 wrote: »

While many of our friends who preferred casting have left for the same reasons expressed by Grandma in the following thread, so I will not go into that here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/490064/whats-the-point-of-magicka-vs-stamina-anymore-pve#latest (check it out and really read it. I know most of you still around are melee stam people, but it explains the perspective of those who prefer to play casters) In short, Magicka no longer offers any reason to play when stamina can do literally everything better, easier, and magicka is forced at melee to compete anyway with beast traps, zaan, and etc.

My tight-nit group of ESO friends (about 25 of us) has been fairly steady for years, but I have been seeing them quit one after the other, or give excuses why they can't log in anymore since this last patch. It's down to about five of us now, and we are lucky to even get pledges done.

I have personally been looking forward to this patch from a DPS perspective. As a dot caster in EQ, WoW, and pretty much any game that gives me the ability, this meta has been exciting for me. It dawned on me, however, how short sighted I was when discussing why they are going to other games with them. The first thing they almost always say is that combat isn't fun anymore. Playing the game isn't fun if I don't enjoy the combat. these are fair statements, but I was confused because I was having a blast with the new meta.

If you don't like juggling dots . . . lots of dots . . . this patch WOULD feel clunky and annoying to you. This is the problem with modern ESO. Classes don't mean much and everyone plays the same, so choosing a class based on the type of style you like to play isn't possible. Everyone who enjoys juggling dots (like me) is happy as can be, but those who do not will not enjoy the combat. If they don't enjoy the combat they won't enjoy the game.

If you want ESO to prosper class identity MUST mean something. Taking the easy road and just balancing around generic abilities is NOT going to work, wow learned this lesson the hard way.

Use passive abilities to make some classes bursty, some dot heavy, and etc. I have even noticed that there are fewer people logging into my auction guilds and fewer people in the cities I frequent.

People are complaining for a reason. They DO NOT like what this patch has done to ESO, and the problem is that it gives anyone who even wants to slightly compete NO option but to be a heavy dot juggling caster or melee (really just melee).

This is all very unfortunate because ESO is still the only MMO I enjoy. I like nearly everything about it, but this is a seriously big problem.

Well, atleast us stam melee ppl cant spam 14k frags in your back from the safe distanse of... Other side of the map. Thats always something right 😉

Jenzi · August 2019

“Adapt and move on”

So sick of hearing this in every thread about the changes. No, I won’t adapt and move on, I will complain until ZOS realises what a huge mistake they have made taking away everyone’s class identify.

As a warden I had 5 great nature based skills, werewolf and I used to be a stealthy little badass. That has now mostly all been taken away. I’m down to 3, THREE warden skills, no werewolf, no stealth. My identity has been stripped away. I now use the same generic skills as every other stamina character. It’s complete bs.

So many great class skills, all unique, all worthless. What is the point?

Bevik · August 2019

Jenzi wrote: »

“Adapt and move on”

So sick of hearing this in every thread about the changes. No, I won’t adapt and move on, I will complain until ZOS realises what a huge mistake they have made taking away everyone’s class identify.

As a warden I had 5 great nature based skills, werewolf and I used to be a stealthy little badass. That has now mostly all been taken away. I’m down to 3, THREE warden skills, no werewolf, no stealth. My identity has been stripped away. I now use the same generic skills as every other stamina character. It’s complete bs.

So many great class skills, all unique, all worthless. What is the point?

That is not just Warden. I have 10 chars, 2 tanks, 1 healer + few stamina and magicka chars. Lets start with the tank: boring, healer: unnecessary, stamina chars: all the same skills mostly from weapon, PvP skill lines(used to be). Few magicka classes were fun to play but they usually get nerfs or totally ruined in few patches plus I'm tired of refarming/grinding everything for every toon after every or every second patch.

lemonizzle · August 2019

They left? Good for them. I can only hope to have the strong will to leave a game I invested thousands of hours into, and not try to bargain and hold on until the last days while it is burning and crashing all around.