What's the point of Magicka vs Stamina anymore? [pve]

Grandma

The design philosophy behind stamina and magicka was clear. In theory it worked like this:

Magicka had higher costs, but had more utility, and could do safer ranged damage, with shields and self heals. This was at the expense of not having stamina to run faster, break free, and dodge roll with. They also had less weapon abilities [only 1 dps weapon] but more class abilities [i think this is the only thing that shouldn't have been there from the start]

Stamina cost less because it was also the resource that made stamina so mobile. It lacked range, and was dangerous to play up close. They didn't have shields or good self heals, but had some stronger sets to make up for it, and did more damage. They have a lot of weapon abilities to choose from, but few class skills [mag and stam should be on the same level imo- class morphs for each, and weapon choices for each]

This theory has been totally warped and made not only redundant but just plain bad for both sides involved.

Now, magicka costs wayyy more, shields are garbage, have mediocre to crap self heals that require melee range, offer no pve utility anymore, can't run fast, break free, block more, dodge roll a bunch like stam can, and in terms of the game's history are YEARS behind in sets.

Stamina costs way less, does more ranged damage, does more melee damage, is safer, has more weapon skills and executes, does more AOE, more single target, can dodge, break free, block infinitely, more mobile, hell, ZOS outright full on said they designed the newest raid specifically to cater to stamdps, they continue to get buffed, get BETTER heals than magicka dps could ever dream about, and have all the most amazing sets in the game spoon fed to them, like Major Slayer for 15 seconds for pressing X on an orb or ritual. Let's not forget the new stamina necromancer class, where every magicka morph of a DPS skill is a crappy useless "utility" morph [you now do like 10 more aoe damage, your skull bounces, you restore 20 magicka per second] where stamina gets crazy damage boosts on all their morphs [skill now does 190412948% more damage, and also buffs you, and also debuffs the enemy]

I know Magicka was BiS and considered god tier dps a year ago, but going full reversal is NOT how to fix this. Stamina doesn't need to be the literal only viable option in order to make the game more interesting, and deliberately designing content to be "stamina-friendly" (AKA 3 parse bosses in a row) is just lazy and annoying for people who enjoy content where you get to do stuff besides dummy parse with add waves every 20%.

I'm fine with stamina doing the most damage, but the fact that they literally have all the advantages of magicka, with none of the disadvantages of magicka, is ridiculous, and I hope they look at this in the upcoming class audit and passive changes. Give more classes stam abilities, and STOP nerfing the everlasting crap out of magicka for being remotely competitive.

I hope I don't come across as hateful towards stam dps. I'm fine with stam dps being meta, heck, they deserve it after being shunned for most of the game's history, but going complete 180 in game direction is not what ZOS should have done after having years of criticism leveled at them for making magicka the only viable option.

the best part is, magicka is still king in pvp, and probably will be as long as they have the utility skills that are useless in pve but super powerful in pvp.

from the perspective of a magicka main who is constantly asked to switch to stamdps.

Vapirko

Yikes, Im not about to write an essay on all the things that are wrong with this post but just in general the pendulum has always swung one way or another. Also, if you're being asked to switch classes you're in the wrong guilds/groups. Ive been part of multiple guilds who are more than happy to run all vet and even HM trials including speed and no death runs and Ive never seen anyone get asked to switch except on very rare occasion if we had too many of either melee or ranged which I think is perfectly reasonable. If you're a serious endgame DPS then you should prob have one of each anyway. If you're doing leader board runs or progression runs then you gotta be willing to go with whatever is BiS even if its only by a few percent, but short of that you really dont need a specific setup and I say again that you should find some more friendly, less try hard groups.

Katahdin

I agree that it should not be overly one or another. Each has its place and a combo of both is best imo.

I see mag characters in the new trial as well as stam and honestly I think having the combo of both is good.

I do portals on the last boss on my stam
blade. I provide fracture and breach for the downstairs group. A necro provides vulnerability, a mag templar or sorc uses crushing shock to interrupt and if templar, throws shards at me once or twice.

It works great.

Grandma

Vapirko wrote: »

Yikes, Im not about to write an essay on all the things that are wrong with this post but just in general the pendulum has always swung one way or another. Also, if you're being asked to switch classes you're in the wrong guilds/groups. Ive been part of multiple guilds who are more than happy to run all vet and even HM trials including speed and no death runs and Ive never seen anyone get asked to switch except on very rare occasion if we had too many of either melee or ranged which I think is perfectly reasonable. If you're a serious endgame DPS then you should prob have one of each anyway. If you're doing leader board runs or progression runs then you gotta be willing to go with whatever is BiS even if its only by a few percent, but short of that you really dont need a specific setup and I say again that you should find some more friendly, less try hard groups.

i literally said that it swings one way or another, my point was why have a pendulum in the first place since it obviously doesn't put people who prefer mag or stam or whatever is on the lower end at the moment in a good place if they want to be competitive. i'm not gonna write an essay about what's wrong with your comment either, but thanks for the good intentions.

berzerkdethb14_ESO1

Vapirko wrote: »

Yikes, Im not about to write an essay on all the things that are wrong with this post but just in general the pendulum has always swung one way or another. Also, if you're being asked to switch classes you're in the wrong guilds/groups. Ive been part of multiple guilds who are more than happy to run all vet and even HM trials including speed and no death runs and Ive never seen anyone get asked to switch except on very rare occasion if we had too many of either melee or ranged which I think is perfectly reasonable. If you're a serious endgame DPS then you should prob have one of each anyway. If you're doing leader board runs or progression runs then you gotta be willing to go with whatever is BiS even if its only by a few percent, but short of that you really dont need a specific setup and I say again that you should find some more friendly, less try hard groups.

been a few years since the pendulum swung in magicka's direction. I think there were two VERY brief periods of magicka domination.

MojaveHeld

Sunspire doesn't cater to stam dps, it took away the catering to mag dps that had been part of the previous two dlc trials (vAS and vCR).

idk

Vapirko wrote: »

Yikes, Im not about to write an essay on all the things that are wrong with this post but just in general the pendulum has always swung one way or another.

I agree with this. I recall times it was rare to have a stamina dps in a raid group. We called it a token stam character.

Players in top raid groups will swap to what is working best but they are also going for scores. There is competition for who has the top score, 2nd, 3rd and so on. Beyond that I have only seen RLs ask players to swap if they knew that player had a character for the desired build. Most groups do not care as long as you are progressing and can hold your own.

MLGProPlayer

berzerkdethb14_ESO1 wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Yikes, Im not about to write an essay on all the things that are wrong with this post but just in general the pendulum has always swung one way or another. Also, if you're being asked to switch classes you're in the wrong guilds/groups. Ive been part of multiple guilds who are more than happy to run all vet and even HM trials including speed and no death runs and Ive never seen anyone get asked to switch except on very rare occasion if we had too many of either melee or ranged which I think is perfectly reasonable. If you're a serious endgame DPS then you should prob have one of each anyway. If you're doing leader board runs or progression runs then you gotta be willing to go with whatever is BiS even if its only by a few percent, but short of that you really dont need a specific setup and I say again that you should find some more friendly, less try hard groups.

been a few years since the pendulum swung in magicka's direction. I think there were two VERY brief periods of magicka domination.

What? Magicka dominated from like 2016 to 2018.

MLGProPlayer

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/470215/solving-the-class-stacking-in-pve-poll/p1

This logic can be applied to the stamina/magicka dichotomy as well.

Grandma

MojaveHeld wrote: »

Sunspire doesn't cater to stam dps, it took away the catering to mag dps that had been part of the previous two dlc trials (vAS and vCR).

I would argue most trials "cater" to magicka dps [vmol requiring at least some dps to be ranged, vhrc discouraging melee stacking, vAA chain lightning, etc] and that sunspire is lazy because there's nothing stopping everyone from just sitting on boss forever unless the tank loses aggro or adds get ignored. The only thing stopping you from stacking under the dragon is an aoe telling you "you will die if you stand under my butt".

The point is that stam being able to fill the magicka slot at this point in time makes something like vSS archaic. if everyone can do range better/melee outweighs the disadvantages of range, why not make raids more interesting or complex?

berzerkdethb14_ESO1 wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Yikes, Im not about to write an essay on all the things that are wrong with this post but just in general the pendulum has always swung one way or another. Also, if you're being asked to switch classes you're in the wrong guilds/groups. Ive been part of multiple guilds who are more than happy to run all vet and even HM trials including speed and no death runs and Ive never seen anyone get asked to switch except on very rare occasion if we had too many of either melee or ranged which I think is perfectly reasonable. If you're a serious endgame DPS then you should prob have one of each anyway. If you're doing leader board runs or progression runs then you gotta be willing to go with whatever is BiS even if its only by a few percent, but short of that you really dont need a specific setup and I say again that you should find some more friendly, less try hard groups.

been a few years since the pendulum swung in magicka's direction. I think there were two VERY brief periods of magicka domination.

definitely not true. Magicka has been top dog until relequen, and even then stam didn't get into vcr and vas until bow/bow spiders came out. now that vSS is brain dead parse stacking they're even better. My point is that I don't want it to "swing" back to magicka, i want it to just be an even amount of stam/mag and not be decided one way or the other which one is objectively better and which one you're hindering yourself taking.

Also, a lot of people are dissecting only what i said about raids, and ignoring what i said about stamina having low to no sacrifice for the higher damage and utility. in pve literally the only thing stam doesn't have now is shields,, which are obsolete in the face of the amazing stam heals that magicka doesn't get to use.

Vapirko

Grandma wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Yikes, Im not about to write an essay on all the things that are wrong with this post but just in general the pendulum has always swung one way or another. Also, if you're being asked to switch classes you're in the wrong guilds/groups. Ive been part of multiple guilds who are more than happy to run all vet and even HM trials including speed and no death runs and Ive never seen anyone get asked to switch except on very rare occasion if we had too many of either melee or ranged which I think is perfectly reasonable. If you're a serious endgame DPS then you should prob have one of each anyway. If you're doing leader board runs or progression runs then you gotta be willing to go with whatever is BiS even if its only by a few percent, but short of that you really dont need a specific setup and I say again that you should find some more friendly, less try hard groups.

i literally said that it swings one way or another, my point was why have a pendulum in the first place since it obviously doesn't put people who prefer mag or stam or whatever is on the lower end at the moment in a good place if they want to be competitive. i'm not gonna write an essay about what's wrong with your comment either, but thanks for the good intentions.

You’re just being salty. Almost nothing you said in your post is true and reeks of someone who plays one spec only in PvE and just makes a ton of assumptions about other specs and aspects of the game. I mean let’s just look at the outrageous statements lol. Stam can block indefinitely? What? I mean maybe if you make a block build but you can do that on a mag toon as well lol and good luck doing anything else with it. Magicka is king of PvP? Ahh you clearly don’t PvP. And that sarcastic percentage buff for stam necros lol. Nice use of facts. You’re clearly just over exaggerating, cherry picking examples and out right making *** up because you’re mad that your main isn’t the absolutely top dps. Or maybe it is and you’re just blaming your lack of ability with it on game “balance.” Honestly judging from your post it sounds like someone in your group asked if anyone could switch to stam, you took it personally and came to the forums for a hissy fit.

Grandma

Vapirko wrote: »

Grandma wrote: »

Vapirko wrote: »

Yikes, Im not about to write an essay on all the things that are wrong with this post but just in general the pendulum has always swung one way or another. Also, if you're being asked to switch classes you're in the wrong guilds/groups. Ive been part of multiple guilds who are more than happy to run all vet and even HM trials including speed and no death runs and Ive never seen anyone get asked to switch except on very rare occasion if we had too many of either melee or ranged which I think is perfectly reasonable. If you're a serious endgame DPS then you should prob have one of each anyway. If you're doing leader board runs or progression runs then you gotta be willing to go with whatever is BiS even if its only by a few percent, but short of that you really dont need a specific setup and I say again that you should find some more friendly, less try hard groups.

i literally said that it swings one way or another, my point was why have a pendulum in the first place since it obviously doesn't put people who prefer mag or stam or whatever is on the lower end at the moment in a good place if they want to be competitive. i'm not gonna write an essay about what's wrong with your comment either, but thanks for the good intentions.

You’re just being salty. Almost nothing you said in your post is true and reeks of someone who plays one spec only in PvE and just makes a ton of assumptions about other specs and aspects of the game. I mean let’s just look at the outrageous statements lol. Stam can block indefinitely? What? I mean maybe if you make a block build but you can do that on a mag toon as well lol and good luck doing anything else with it. Magicka is king of PvP? Ahh you clearly don’t PvP. And that sarcastic percentage buff for stam necros lol. Nice use of facts. You’re clearly just over exaggerating, cherry picking examples and out right making *** up because you’re mad that your main isn’t the absolutely top dps. Or maybe it is and you’re just blaming your lack of ability with it on game “balance.” Honestly judging from your post it sounds like someone in your group asked if anyone could switch to stam, you took it personally and came to the forums for a hissy fit.

talk about throwing a hissy fit, jesus christ i don't have the energy to rip this post to shreds. Let me just preface it with the fact that PVE Is literally in the title. not that you have any ability for reading comprehension.

Kadoin

Don't worry! Stam is still underpowered in PvP at least!

If you believe the forums and not reality...

GhostofDatthaw

I mean they give us toon slots for a reason. You could honestly have all 12 class and specs mon maxed out then you never have to worry about the meta changr

GrimTheReaper45

GhostofDatthaw wrote: »

I mean they give us toon slots for a reason. You could honestly have all 12 class and specs mon maxed out then you never have to worry about the meta changr

It doesnt matter about the meta. I want to be able jump on a class I enjoy playing and feel like I am able to participate in content without being a dps loss or burden.

I dont like stam, its not fun for me. If someone likes it good for them. I however dont enjoy it and dont want to play it.

All mag classes suck rn compared to stam, regardless of content. I ask how to adapt to a new patch and get told to go be a stamcro or stamplar because its easier and ill do more damage and mag isnt worth the trouble.

WrathOfInnos

GrimTheReaper45 wrote: »

GhostofDatthaw wrote: »

I mean they give us toon slots for a reason. You could honestly have all 12 class and specs mon maxed out then you never have to worry about the meta changr

It doesnt matter about the meta. I want to be able jump on a class I enjoy playing and feel like I am able to participate in content without being a dps loss or burden.

I dont like stam, its not fun for me. If someone likes it good for them. I however dont enjoy it and dont want to play it.

All mag classes suck rn compared to stam, regardless of content. I ask how to adapt to a new patch and get told to go be a stamcro or stamplar because its easier and ill do more damage and mag isnt worth the trouble.

Stamplar??? Aren’t they the lowest Stam DPS right now?

reprosal

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

GrimTheReaper45 wrote: »

GhostofDatthaw wrote: »

I mean they give us toon slots for a reason. You could honestly have all 12 class and specs mon maxed out then you never have to worry about the meta changr

It doesnt matter about the meta. I want to be able jump on a class I enjoy playing and feel like I am able to participate in content without being a dps loss or burden.

I dont like stam, its not fun for me. If someone likes it good for them. I however dont enjoy it and dont want to play it.

All mag classes suck rn compared to stam, regardless of content. I ask how to adapt to a new patch and get told to go be a stamcro or stamplar because its easier and ill do more damage and mag isnt worth the trouble.

Stamplar??? Aren’t they the lowest Stam DPS right now?

Stamplar is probably the easiest most balanced AoE kit without the use of vMA daggers. But yea, still lowest on the totempole

kylewwefan

Have to wait and see what the new patch brings us next week over here in console land. That one dude is kind of right on about which way the pendulum swings.

Magic still does quite well imo, despite whatever I read. Asylum Sanctorum and Cloudrest are still quite hateful to stamina based characters. That’s not likely going to change anytime soon.

I do think we’re in a pretty good place right now though.

If you’re not trying to be the best of the best, there’s many viable options. It wasn’t long ago using a 2H was laughably bad in PvE. It’s still not BiS, but is acceptable and much more pleasing to my eyes.

Magic can use any combination of staves and do ok. There was a time when it was all about the lightning. It’s amazing we don’t all have eye cancer now. I’m sure you remember that. It was like trying to watch an arc welder.

SunSpire doesn’t really feel specifically catered towards Stam, but it is far less hateful towards us then some other places.

I feel like most of us have this idea of being in an actual competitive group, when we’re really just lucky to complete content in any kind of timely fashion. Maybe it’s just different on console. There’s like a top group. Then every one else 50k points below that. Not really competitive imo. Not at all.

Grandma

kylewwefan wrote: »

Have to wait and see what the new patch brings us next week over here in console land. That one dude is kind of right on about which way the pendulum swings.

Magic still does quite well imo, despite whatever I read. Asylum Sanctorum and Cloudrest are still quite hateful to stamina based characters. That’s not likely going to change anytime soon.

I do think we’re in a pretty good place right now though.

If you’re not trying to be the best of the best, there’s many viable options. It wasn’t long ago using a 2H was laughably bad in PvE. It’s still not BiS, but is acceptable and much more pleasing to my eyes.

Magic can use any combination of staves and do ok. There was a time when it was all about the lightning. It’s amazing we don’t all have eye cancer now. I’m sure you remember that. It was like trying to watch an arc welder.

SunSpire doesn’t really feel specifically catered towards Stam, but it is far less hateful towards us then some other places.

I feel like most of us have this idea of being in an actual competitive group, when we’re really just lucky to complete content in any kind of timely fashion. Maybe it’s just different on console. There’s like a top group. Then every one else 50k points below that. Not really competitive imo. Not at all.

You have a pretty good perspective on this.

my point is that the way stam vs mag was designed is archaic and outdated- give stam the tools to be competitive at range, sure, but stop buffing them endlessly in terms of resources, or at least give mag a way to compete for stamina slots in a raid- make it so that we could go 8 stam or 8 mag in the same trial and not see huge fluctuations in errors. Stamina just is so overloaded rn with utility and group heals and damage and mobility and mag has pretty much just damage and *** shields that get nerfed every other weak. That's mostly my point.

why design raids to be boring when we could just design stam so that raids aren't "hateful" towards them for just existing?

El_Borracho

DPS oversimplification: Stamina: Usually up close and personal damage dealers, Magic: Better at ranged combat. Behold, diversity.

Magic has now been blessed with False God's, the VO for magic, to help with sustain. The damage is there with Mother's Sorrow (AOE) and Spell Strat (Single Target). Magic has UNBELIEVABLE heals with Twilight Matriarch, to the point people were demanding it get nerfed. Shields are not what they used to be, but they vitiate enough damage that they are on the same level with stamina. And there are multiple versions you can mix and match for the situation. I love running my petsorc in pug trials as I can almost always weather any attack even with a garbage healer.

However, I am a primary stamina DPS player (Stamblade), and I have no clue where this sentiment of it being overloaded is coming from. Caltrops is getting nerfed, one of only 2 useful ranged AOE/DOT attacks. Vigor is the only heal. You talk about the cost of magic abilities. Have you seen the cost of stamina ranged abilities? Unsustainable is what I would use to describe them, unless you are going with a rare bow/bow build, which hardly anyone does in PVE because you would be giving up an execute. Just because I can hit harder with my stamina players does not make them easier to play, blessed by the game, or "better" than magic. It just means I have more time on them and am more familiar with them. I've also cleared the exact same trials on both with no issues.

Finally, look at VMA. So the hardest content in the game is easier for magic players, but the game is designed to punish magic players? Come on.

Grandma

El_Borracho wrote: »

Finally, look at VMA. So the hardest content in the game is easier for magic players, but the game is designed to punish magic players? Come on.

Shields are a bad joke compared to stam self heals, and mag self heals have been and will continue to be nerfed into the dirt, whether because of pvp or pve. Also, my "oversimplification" , if any of you read my post, was about the general design philosophy behind the differences between stam and mag, i also stated I was fine with this changing, also as nobody seems to be able to recognize, I'm just confused as to why stam has all the pluses of mag with 0 of the drawbacks.

If vma is so geared towards mag players, why are literally all the high scores and best runs from stam? Why is it that mag is like using training wheels and once you're good at the game stam is better in every situation?

Idinuse

Vapirko wrote: »

Yikes, Im not about to write an essay on all the things that are wrong with this post but just in general the pendulum has always swung one way or another. Also, if you're being asked to switch classes you're in the wrong guilds/groups. Ive been part of multiple guilds who are more than happy to run all vet and even HM trials including speed and no death runs and Ive never seen anyone get asked to switch except on very rare occasion if we had too many of either melee or ranged which I think is perfectly reasonable. If you're a serious endgame DPS then you should prob have one of each anyway. If you're doing leader board runs or progression runs then you gotta be willing to go with whatever is BiS even if its only by a few percent, but short of that you really dont need a specific setup and I say again that you should find some more friendly, less try hard groups.

Fine. I'm still waiting for the pendulum to swing to Magicka in PvP. It's been long now. Stamdens, Stamblades, StamDKs, Stamsorcs, Stamplars, now Stamcro.. Yeah.

Vercingetorix

Stamina has been overtuned in ESO for over two years while magicka has languished behind in both pve and pvp. It was stale and frankly boring AF. The game has finally shifted back to magicka where it belongs.

I like this patch quite a lot. Magicka has always been more diverse because stamina is a generic weapon skill build every time. DoT damage is easier for newer players to learn and this will translate to easier pug dungeon/trial completions, which is a good thing for the community. If you don't like magicka, you can always take a break from ESO.

Katahdin

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Stamina has been overtuned in ESO for over two years while magicka has languished behind in both pve and pvp. It was stale and frankly boring AF. The game has finally shifted back to magicka where it belongs.

I like this patch quite a lot. Magicka has always been more diverse because stamina is a generic weapon skill build every time. DoT damage is easier for newer players to learn and this will translate to easier pug dungeon/trial completions, which is a good thing for the community. If you don't like magicka, you can always take a break from ESO.

That's a bunch of BS and you know it.
A year ago, it was go magblade for literally every DLC endgame trial or dungeon or go home.

They are finally adjusting it so BOTH are viable in end game pve.

Stam is strong in PvP butbut again does just fine. I've seen mag dk, mag sorcs and magplars that are very hard to kill.

If you're struggling in either PvP or PvE, you need to L2Play

As Yea that's a great suggestion: tell people to take a break and their money elsewhere. That will be fantastic for the game.....not

Idinuse

Katahdin wrote: »

Vercingetorix wrote: »

Stamina has been overtuned in ESO for over two years while magicka has languished behind in both pve and pvp. It was stale and frankly boring AF. The game has finally shifted back to magicka where it belongs.

I like this patch quite a lot. Magicka has always been more diverse because stamina is a generic weapon skill build every time. DoT damage is easier for newer players to learn and this will translate to easier pug dungeon/trial completions, which is a good thing for the community. If you don't like magicka, you can always take a break from ESO.

That's a bunch of BS and you know it.
A year ago, it was go magblade for literally every DLC endgame trial or dungeon or go home.

They are finally adjusting it so BOTH are viable in end game pve.

Stam is strong in PvP butbut again does just fine. I've seen mag dk, mag sorcs and magplars that are very hard to kill.

If you're struggling in either PvP or PvE, you need to L2Play

As Yea that's a great suggestion: tell people to take a break and their money elsewhere. That will be fantastic for the game.....not

Please! Don't mix in anything Night Blade into the discussion. The class has been over performing ever since IC was released, that's just doping. And no, I one shoot every Trial Boss and any 24 man raid, just like you. ^^b If you don't, you noob need to git gud. So intelligent...