Is ESO heading for a universal class system?

NoodleESO · August 2019

(TYDR: Im not in favor or against this but i would like to know what the forums think, if this is the combat vision Zos is going for. No actual proof but perhaps a few hints of this being the vision)

With the recent changes to the crown store, skill lines can now be bought if the whole skill line is already obtained by another character on the same account. From the moment this started people brought up that zos would make skill lines more of a grind to make sales. (p2w opinions aside) This new feature lays the ground work so that any character you have can learn any of the skill lines from the six existing classes, and/or buy to max out these skill lines to save time you would spend grinding them out. Zenimax is also know to have some kind of fetish for selling their customers the same product they've already bought over and over again, and this is seen in Zos and Bethesda games so it would not surprise me to see zos trying to sell us base game skill lines, because it just works i guess.

Some time ago this idea would never work, but with the new Scalebreaker update everyone is running the same skills anywhere you go in the game and almost all skills now follow some kind of pattern to be in line with. And every update since the new combat team was brought in, people have been talking about how their class is losing its identity and perhaps this is a good thing and was intended all along. In the next update the combat team will be reworking the class passives and i feel like they saved them purposely for last, as it would have been harder to rework them first with this kind of vision in mind. Below are some pros and cons

The Pros
-vast diversity in combat for pvp and questing
-balance (instead of having to rework an entire class if they're op, the combat team can narrow it down to an over preforming skill) no more nerf sorc huzzah!
-balance for pve (things will most likely look the same as they do now with bis gear and rotations but dungeons will become more mechanic focused)
- Traditional elder scrolls play style where you can be anything you wanna be ex: sorc/necro/warden combo etc.
- refreshing gameplay
- opens the door for spellcrafting since everyone will have access to the same skills, and not one class will be op with a spellcrafting skill line

The Cons
- there will be no more class identity (for people that like it i guess)
- might complicate the cp rework even more
- more grind
- potato

This is my own constrictive criticism, the good, the bad and the ugly. If you have more pros and cons please share them, but please keep it civil

fastolfv_ESO · August 2019

hate to break it to you but were already at this point, sorc lost 100% identity last update and the only class left with unique useful anything is the nb. We all use the same rotations and the same armor in pve like drones for the sake of a combat team that has accepted failure at balancing

Enkil · August 2019

If ZOS was going to eliminate classes in favor of a true Elder Scrolls classless model, it would undeniably be in their interest to share that with the public. It would generate buzz and perhaps bring new positive attention to the current changes, instead of the overwhelmingly negative reception. It is far more likely they are continuing the madness shown in the past few years, breaking more than fixing, shifting glaring problems around, squandering opportunities and dumbing down the game. Why is this game not yet polished after 5 years??

mairwen85 · August 2019

NoodleESO wrote: »

(TYDR: Im not in favor or against this but i would like to know what the forums think, if this is the combat vision Zos is going for. No actual proof but perhaps a few hints of this being the vision)

With the recent changes to the crown store, skill lines can now be bought if the whole skill line is already obtained by another character on the same account. From the moment this started people brought up that zos would make skill lines more of a grind to make sales. (p2w opinions aside) This new feature lays the ground work so that any character you have can learn any of the skill lines from the six existing classes, and/or buy to max out these skill lines to save time you would spend grinding them out. Zenimax is also know to have some kind of fetish for selling their customers the same product they've already bought over and over again, and this is seen in Zos and Bethesda games so it would not surprise me to see zos trying to sell us base game skill lines, because it just works i guess.

Some time ago this idea would never work, but with the new Scalebreaker update everyone is running the same skills anywhere you go in the game and almost all skills now follow some kind of pattern to be in line with. And every update since the new combat team was brought in, people have been talking about how their class is losing its identity and perhaps this is a good thing and was intended all along. In the next update the combat team will be reworking the class passives and i feel like they saved them purposely for last, as it would have been harder to rework them first with this kind of vision in mind. Below are some pros and cons

The Pros
-vast diversity in combat for pvp and questing
-balance (instead of having to rework an entire class if they're op, the combat team can narrow it down to an over preforming skill) no more nerf sorc huzzah!
-balance for pve (things will most likely look the same as they do now with bis gear and rotations but dungeons will become more mechanic focused)
- Traditional elder scrolls play style where you can be anything you wanna be ex: sorc/necro/warden combo etc.
- refreshing gameplay
- opens the door for spellcrafting since everyone will have access to the same skills, and not one class will be op with a spellcrafting skill line

The Cons
- there will be no more class identity (for people that like it i guess)
- might complicate the cp rework even more
- more grind
- potato

This is my own constrictive criticism, the good, the bad and the ugly. If you have more pros and cons please share them, but please keep it civil

You'd still have one specific combination that beats everything else. It will just be much more narrow than it is now...

It would, I agree, pull in more TES purists.

wishlist14 · August 2019

Is eso heading towards a universal class system?

If by that you mean running towards the edge of a cliff at light speed then my answer is YES 😆

Saelent · August 2019

I’d personally love the idea of a universal class system, I bet everyone has been thinking about how it would work, one way or another, here’s my take:
Start out with one class and learn the rest later.
Buy the skill lines on a new character if you have a level 50 of that class. (Based on current crown store)
Mix and match skills as you feel - while this might cause a ‘perfect build’ wouldn’t that also have a perfect counter?
I dream of one day mixing my magblade and my magnecro...*prays*

But if this is what they’re heading for and they said so, there would still be a lot of people who’d complain. Though...didn’t they say on a stream ages ago that this was one of the things they wouldn’t do? Or was that the guy who left?

Araneae6537 · August 2019

I don’t see how eliminating class identity (if that is indeed happening, too new to have an opinion myself) would increase diversity. I’m not seeing any of those pros except I guess I have to concede balance, but that is something I care very little about — I’ll choose diversity and customization over balance any day! I don’t see how it’s play-as-you-want if everything plays the same and class choice is meaningless. I DO very much like that classes can be played in different ways with various DPS, tank and heal options! Taking away class options is one of the things that drove me to take a break from GW2. I don’t want to be forced to play a class a certain way and I don’t want all classes to play the same.

kaisernick · August 2019

Enkil wrote: »

If ZOS was going to eliminate classes in favor of a true Elder Scrolls classless model, it would undeniably be in their interest to share that with the public. It would generate buzz and perhaps bring new positive attention to the current changes, instead of the overwhelmingly negative reception. It is far more likely they are continuing the madness shown in the past few years, breaking more than fixing, shifting glaring problems around, squandering opportunities and dumbing down the game. Why is this game not yet polished after 5 years??

If that was their plan id jump ship asap skyrim's lack of classes meade the gameplay very crappy imo, where areas were neglected (magic being the most) for often generic boring abilties.

Saelent · August 2019

ErinM31 wrote: »

I don’t see how eliminating class identity (if that is indeed happening, too new to have an opinion myself) would increase diversity. I’m not seeing any of those pros except I guess I have to concede balance, but that is something I care very little about — I’ll choose diversity and customization over balance any day! I don’t see how it’s play-as-you-want if everything plays the same and class choice is meaningless. I DO very much like that classes can be played in different ways with various DPS, tank and heal options! Taking away class options is one of the things that drove me to take a break from GW2. I don’t want to be forced to play a class a certain way and I don’t want all classes to play the same.

Unless I’m completely mistaken, I think what the OP was suggesting was that all characters of all classes would be able to (eventually) have access to the skills of other classes. Though I’ll admit that I don’t exactly see how homogenisation can lead to this.
So, the idea being that players would have the chance to dip into all classes on one character and mix the skills as they prefer. No class change token needed.

NoodleESO · August 2019

Unless I’m completely mistaken, I think what the OP was suggesting was that all characters of all classes would be able to (eventually) have access to the skills of other classes. Though I’ll admit that I don’t exactly see how homogenisation can lead to this.
So, the idea being that players would have the chance to dip into all classes on one character and mix the skills as they prefer. No class change token needed.

Yes this is also why i believe they haven't added class change tokens as they would make more money from selling skill lines. A class change token is a one time transaction, buying the other five skill lines would mean five transactions. And for clarity yes i think this is how it would work, players being able to mix the skills etc.

Araneae6537 · August 2019

Saelent wrote: »

ErinM31 wrote: »

I don’t see how eliminating class identity (if that is indeed happening, too new to have an opinion myself) would increase diversity. I’m not seeing any of those pros except I guess I have to concede balance, but that is something I care very little about — I’ll choose diversity and customization over balance any day! I don’t see how it’s play-as-you-want if everything plays the same and class choice is meaningless. I DO very much like that classes can be played in different ways with various DPS, tank and heal options! Taking away class options is one of the things that drove me to take a break from GW2. I don’t want to be forced to play a class a certain way and I don’t want all classes to play the same.

Unless I’m completely mistaken, I think what the OP was suggesting was that all characters of all classes would be able to (eventually) have access to the skills of other classes. Though I’ll admit that I don’t exactly see how homogenisation can lead to this.
So, the idea being that players would have the chance to dip into all classes on one character and mix the skills as they prefer. No class change token needed.

I was interpreting homogenization as all classes using the same — or essentially the same — skills, which is a criticism I have read elsewhere. Being able to essentially multi-class is a different thing entirely. I don’t think I would have a problem with the latter so long as they didn’t take away currently available options. Surely there would have to be some limit on passives though or you could only choose three class skill lines but don’t have to use three from a single class.

Alaztor91 · August 2019

Why sell class change tokens when you can sell class skill lines separately? After homogenizing skills and setting a standard for how much damage/healing/utility/etc each skill is allowed to have(you could argue that we are already at this point), all that's left is separating those skills into 3 skill trees, one for damage, one for healing and one for tanking(I remember Wrobel saying something about that).

Then for example if you have a Warden but you wan't to replace your Green Balance tree for a Templar's Restoring Light tree you would only need a lvl 50 Templar and some crowns ofc.(Aedric Spear and Dawn's Wrath require separate purchase). This would ofc unlock them only for that character so if you want to mix and match skill trees you would need to spend quite a few crowns, it's like the ultimate way to monetize class skill lines.

idk · August 2019

I seriously doubt Zos would want to make the game that boring that we have no classes. Granted, they have made in roads to simplify in such a silly which further demonstrates the brilliant mind of Matt Firror and his amazing guidance he provides to the teams. As long as he runs the show we can expect similar amazing changes to come.

Aurie · August 2019

Strikes me that it can’t be in ZOS’ best interests to have a universal class system, as surely people wouldn’t create as many alts. Less revenue.

eso_lytw8 · August 2019

Now this is an interesting observation. I've been struggling to figure why in the heck they are doing what they are doing, stripping away so much rich class uniqueness for what? Some say so they can put it back at a later date, but this seems like a complete waste of resources and time.

With the upcoming passive changes next, which will clearly results in further dilution of the classes, it would indeed make it possible to go classless, as its been pointed out we are basically there. Although I generally prefer classless systems I don't think I'd like to see it in ESO, just too much old school for such a drastic change.

It would create a lot of buzz though, pretty sure I would give the game a go again if they did it. I was wondering if they weren't looking at adding a battle royale mode which is why the homogenization. These games are typically played with everyone having 100% same abilities and you gain customization through what you find. Maybe someone saw a new market in BR gaming and pushed to have the classes homogenized to make it possible, aka skills audit.

Regardless both theories help shed some light on what appears to be a rather inexplicable development path.

idk · August 2019

Aurelle1 wrote: »

Strikes me that it can’t be in ZOS’ best interests to have a universal class system, as surely people wouldn’t create as many alts. Less revenue.

Which is at least part of the reason we do not have class change. So you are correct.

Enkil · August 2019

Aurelle1 wrote: »

Strikes me that it can’t be in ZOS’ best interests to have a universal class system, as surely people wouldn’t create as many alts. Less revenue.

spot on! Selling guild skill lines at $30 x 5-10 characters/lines = $150-300.

Currently, a player can be subscribing to the ESO+ for $15/month and would still have to save all crowns for 2 months to afford to unlock one skill line on one character. Said player will have already unlocked it and played the content. If the game was subscription based and not mixed, the ability to unlock those on characters would be possible via in game gold probably.

I have ended my ESO+ with this patch because I would still have to pay outrageous sums to unlock undaunted on one toon, and as a PvP player, I need it on several. The greed is blatant and has crossed the line to P2Win.

AcadianPaladin · August 2019

Is ESO heading for a universal class system?

Gosh, I sure hope so.

eso_lytw8 · August 2019

Aurelle1 wrote: »

Strikes me that it can’t be in ZOS’ best interests to have a universal class system, as surely people wouldn’t create as many alts. Less revenue.

Good point, I had not thought of this, but then why in the world are they doing what they are doing? I might be atypical but a lot of my enjoyment has been creating alts and exploring the different aspects of each class. I have 15 alts 3 tanks, 3 healers, 4 mag dps, and 5 stam dps. This has been a huge part of the game for me, now I feel liked I have wasted my time since they are all basically the same now....which is why I stopped enjoying the game. So this suggests they have reduced the desire to create new characters...I mean really what's the point. All that work to slot one or two different skills that have been balanced so they don't really do anything meaningfully different anyway.

I hope there is a point to all this.

Skullstachio · August 2019

Just my 2 cents: with the fact that the champion skills need revamping to a degree, seeing the threads regarding classes losing class identity, I can only assume there is something new on the horizon that could shock all of us.

Shot in the dark, the Champion skill lines could be reworked to offer bonuses unique to each class, Granting each class its own efficient form of class identity.

ATomiX69 · August 2019

NoodleESO wrote: »

- there will be no more class identity (for people that like it i guess)

So youre trying to tell me there is class identity right now when over half your abilties are guild and weapon skills and when "neutral" skills that are similar to class-only skills straight up outperform them in many cases?
Wow thats a bold assumption on your part.
The whole hyperbalance and "every class needs access to everything"-vision of the combat team is just straight up killing the game.

The_Old_Goat · August 2019

I can't help but feel like this all started with the people who requested racial rebalancing because they didn't like the racial differences and now it's snowballed into class rebalancing. What people don't realize when asking Zos to improve a race or a skill or whatever, is that they come at it sideways and nerf everything else to make that requested skill or ability suddenly look better. As the old saying goes "be careful what you wish for, you might just get it."

beadabow · August 2019

They are preparing us for the near future when the Zenimax mothership descends from the clouds and (ahem) attempts to enslave all of humanity under a classless societal system. Only the engine lag causes the huge spacecraft to drop precipitously into the Atlantic ocean and disintegrate upon impact. An investigation of the debris field determines navigators were stuck in load screens while trying to determine where to park the damn thing.

huschdeguddzje · August 2019

I'm honestly fine with both, just do it properly, not this half baked thing we have at the moment. Either class identity or the elder scrolls way.

Cously · August 2019

Destroy class identity > Make builds same > Introduce Spellcrafting as the new "diversity" > Profit

TheShadowScout · August 2019

NoodleESO wrote: »

Is ESO heading for a universal class system?

Unlikely.
Since they are only selling -supplementary- skill lines.
As in, the ones whyone who wants to can pick up on any characters anyhow.

And any "universal class system" ideas would really leech a lot of enjoyment from everyone... I mean, that sort of thing is great in single palyer games, but in MMO games... not so much.

Aurelle1 wrote: »

Strikes me that it can’t be in ZOS’ best interests to have a universal class system, as surely people wouldn’t create as many alts. Less revenue.

That is one reason.

The other is that "universal class system" ends up in "everyone and their granny running the same super-effective build, and looking down on anyone who dares to not run that super-effective build"... which is a lot less fun to play in as a game setup. Actually, no fun at all...

Chilly-McFreeze · August 2019

mairwen85 wrote: »

NoodleESO wrote: »

(TYDR: Im not in favor or against this but i would like to know what the forums think, if this is the combat vision Zos is going for. No actual proof but perhaps a few hints of this being the vision)

With the recent changes to the crown store, skill lines can now be bought if the whole skill line is already obtained by another character on the same account. From the moment this started people brought up that zos would make skill lines more of a grind to make sales. (p2w opinions aside) This new feature lays the ground work so that any character you have can learn any of the skill lines from the six existing classes, and/or buy to max out these skill lines to save time you would spend grinding them out. Zenimax is also know to have some kind of fetish for selling their customers the same product they've already bought over and over again, and this is seen in Zos and Bethesda games so it would not surprise me to see zos trying to sell us base game skill lines, because it just works i guess.

Some time ago this idea would never work, but with the new Scalebreaker update everyone is running the same skills anywhere you go in the game and almost all skills now follow some kind of pattern to be in line with. And every update since the new combat team was brought in, people have been talking about how their class is losing its identity and perhaps this is a good thing and was intended all along. In the next update the combat team will be reworking the class passives and i feel like they saved them purposely for last, as it would have been harder to rework them first with this kind of vision in mind. Below are some pros and cons

The Pros
-vast diversity in combat for pvp and questing
-balance (instead of having to rework an entire class if they're op, the combat team can narrow it down to an over preforming skill) no more nerf sorc huzzah!
-balance for pve (things will most likely look the same as they do now with bis gear and rotations but dungeons will become more mechanic focused)
- Traditional elder scrolls play style where you can be anything you wanna be ex: sorc/necro/warden combo etc.
- refreshing gameplay
- opens the door for spellcrafting since everyone will have access to the same skills, and not one class will be op with a spellcrafting skill line

The Cons
- there will be no more class identity (for people that like it i guess)
- might complicate the cp rework even more
- more grind
- potato

This is my own constrictive criticism, the good, the bad and the ugly. If you have more pros and cons please share them, but please keep it civil

You'd still have one specific combination that beats everything else. It will just be much more narrow than it is now...

Pretty much this. Sure, in theory you have a much broader skill pool you can choose and craft your build from but in the end it's "you have to run X, Y and Z or gtfo my raid.". Instead of ~X unused class skills you will have ~6X skills you won't even touch because something else is better. You're not increasing "endgame" diversity, you're killing it.

Jagdkommando · August 2019

fastolfv_ESO wrote: »

hate to break it to you but were already at this point, sorc lost 100% identity last update and the only class left with unique useful anything is the nb. We all use the same rotations and the same armor in pve like drones for the sake of a combat team that has accepted failure at balancing

If sorc lost 100% of class id, then blade of woe was used on NB class....

Waynerx8 · August 2019

ESO will be dumbed down to attract/keep newer players that feed the clown store, vast majority of the money will be filtered off to fund ZOS's new project and share holders, don't expect it to improve, it won't.

Jagdkommando · August 2019

Waynerx8 wrote: »

ESO will be dumbed down to attract/keep newer players that feed the clown store, vast majority of the money will be filtered off to fund ZOS's new project and share holders, don't expect it to improve, it won't.

This!

Vlad9425 · August 2019

fastolfv_ESO wrote: »

hate to break it to you but were already at this point, sorc lost 100% identity last update and the only class left with unique useful anything is the nb. We all use the same rotations and the same armor in pve like drones for the sake of a combat team that has accepted failure at balancing

NB has lost almost all of its identity in the Elsweyr patch. Please be so kind to tell me what “identity” NB has left aside from Cloak? Or are you another player who doesn’t play NB and just assume things?