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Update 49 is now available for testing on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/categories/pts
Racial balance patch revisited - DD meta as strict as ever
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BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I think the problem with this thread, and with the issue about racial balances in general, is that there is a lot of people who are saying, "I don't do endgame content, thus all the racial are fine" (in effect).
And that's the problem. The racials are NOT balanced, and vehemently giving the opinion that you don't care about balance is not helpful, because all that does is help perpetuate the problems with the racial (and class) balances for future content.
In my opinion, having Stam and Magicka races in a game with an Elder Scrolls pedigree is just a baffling design in the first place. To then have those races unbalanced in their respective categories just brings bad design to a whole new level.6 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »ZOS went into the racial rebalance with the goal is making races more balanced. Instead, all they did was reshuffle the meta. Let's look at where the meta is now that things have had time to settle.
Orc is the clear-cut BiS race for stamina DD now. They parse 2-3k higher than Redguard/Bosmer/Khajiit.
Magicka DD started out fairly balanced, but the nerf to gold food in Elsweyr pushed Breton into the clear-cut BiS role.
All they did was force a meta shift from Redguard/Dunmer to Orc/Breton.
Healer/tank are more forgiving roles so the meta is more flexible there. But as far as DD balance goes, it's not any better than it was before the patch, just different. So my question is, what was the point of the racial rebalancing patch?
Dude... as long as people are chasing the META and scrutinizing minuscule % differences, there will never be "balance".
Statistical parity will not happen UNLESS the devs remove any possible variations between the different options, i.e., they streamline and dumb everything down to CoD FPS levels of equality.
Do you want Call of Elder Scrolls? 'Cuz, this is how you get Call of Elder Scrolls. Just ask WoW players.
@srfrogg23 what the heck does call of duty have to do with this
pretty crazy people still use it as an easy target for their slippery slope arguments like this
Oh, ok. By all means. Keeping pushing for the continued dumbing down of the character building and progression mechanics in the name of statistical parity. I'm sure it won't have a negative impact on build diversity.
No, I didn't literally mean it would turn into CoD. It's a metaphorical statement meant to inspire a certain mental connection to a design philosophy that is based on complete and utter fairness for the sake of competitive gameplay but is ultimately dull and antithetical to the RPG genre's philosophy of personalization through unique identities based on strengths and weaknesses- i.e. NOT EFFING DPS PARSES!!!
Racial passives don't result in build diversity. If you min-max, you will always pick the best race.
And you don't need passives locked behind races to create "RPG depth". Depth comes from gear choice, CP allocation, attribute allocation, etc. Linking a cosmetic feature (race) to gameplay mechanics is poor design if anything.Edited by MLGProPlayer on August 17, 2019 12:42AM6 -
srfrogg23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »ZOS went into the racial rebalance with the goal is making races more balanced. Instead, all they did was reshuffle the meta. Let's look at where the meta is now that things have had time to settle.
Orc is the clear-cut BiS race for stamina DD now. They parse 2-3k higher than Redguard/Bosmer/Khajiit.
Magicka DD started out fairly balanced, but the nerf to gold food in Elsweyr pushed Breton into the clear-cut BiS role.
All they did was force a meta shift from Redguard/Dunmer to Orc/Breton.
Healer/tank are more forgiving roles so the meta is more flexible there. But as far as DD balance goes, it's not any better than it was before the patch, just different. So my question is, what was the point of the racial rebalancing patch?
Dude... as long as people are chasing the META and scrutinizing minuscule % differences, there will never be "balance".
Statistical parity will not happen UNLESS the devs remove any possible variations between the different options, i.e., they streamline and dumb everything down to CoD FPS levels of equality.
Do you want Call of Elder Scrolls? 'Cuz, this is how you get Call of Elder Scrolls. Just ask WoW players.
@srfrogg23 what the heck does call of duty have to do with this
pretty crazy people still use it as an easy target for their slippery slope arguments like this
Oh, ok. By all means. Keeping pushing for the continued dumbing down of the character building and progression mechanics in the name of statistical parity. I'm sure it won't have a negative impact on build diversity.
No, I didn't literally mean it would turn into CoD. It's a metaphorical statement meant to inspire a certain mental connection to a design philosophy that is based on complete and utter fairness for the sake of competitive gameplay but is ultimately dull and antithetical to the RPG genre's philosophy of personalization through unique identities based on strengths and weaknesses- i.e. NOT EFFING DPS PARSES!!!
Racial passives don't result in build diversity. If you min-max, you will always pick the best race.
And you don't need passives locked behind races to create "RPG depth". Depth comes from gear choice, CP allocation, attribute allocation, etc. Linking a cosmetic feature (race) to gameplay mechanics is poor design if anything.
That's my whole point. Stop min/maxing. Stop searching for statistical parity. Stop with the dps parses. Every single little thing the devs do to pursue your desired goal chips away at the depth of the game systems and brings the game one step closer to being insipid, generic, and generally just that much more boring.
And, for what? A 2% boost in performance to alleviate the erroneous assertion that "people won't include me in their party" or some other nonsense? It's not worth it. This crap, right here, that you're doing is what ruined WoW's RPG aspects. But, hey, at least it's E-Sports ready...3 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »ZOS went into the racial rebalance with the goal is making races more balanced. Instead, all they did was reshuffle the meta. Let's look at where the meta is now that things have had time to settle.
Orc is the clear-cut BiS race for stamina DD now. They parse 2-3k higher than Redguard/Bosmer/Khajiit.
Magicka DD started out fairly balanced, but the nerf to gold food in Elsweyr pushed Breton into the clear-cut BiS role.
All they did was force a meta shift from Redguard/Dunmer to Orc/Breton.
Healer/tank are more forgiving roles so the meta is more flexible there. But as far as DD balance goes, it's not any better than it was before the patch, just different. So my question is, what was the point of the racial rebalancing patch?
Dude... as long as people are chasing the META and scrutinizing minuscule % differences, there will never be "balance".
Statistical parity will not happen UNLESS the devs remove any possible variations between the different options, i.e., they streamline and dumb everything down to CoD FPS levels of equality.
Do you want Call of Elder Scrolls? 'Cuz, this is how you get Call of Elder Scrolls. Just ask WoW players.
@srfrogg23 what the heck does call of duty have to do with this
pretty crazy people still use it as an easy target for their slippery slope arguments like this
Oh, ok. By all means. Keeping pushing for the continued dumbing down of the character building and progression mechanics in the name of statistical parity. I'm sure it won't have a negative impact on build diversity.
No, I didn't literally mean it would turn into CoD. It's a metaphorical statement meant to inspire a certain mental connection to a design philosophy that is based on complete and utter fairness for the sake of competitive gameplay but is ultimately dull and antithetical to the RPG genre's philosophy of personalization through unique identities based on strengths and weaknesses- i.e. NOT EFFING DPS PARSES!!!
Racial passives don't result in build diversity. If you min-max, you will always pick the best race.
And you don't need passives locked behind races to create "RPG depth". Depth comes from gear choice, CP allocation, attribute allocation, etc. Linking a cosmetic feature (race) to gameplay mechanics is poor design if anything.
That's my whole point. Stop min/maxing. Stop searching for statistical parity. Stop with the dps parses. Every single little thing the devs do to pursue your desired goal chips away at the depth of the game systems and brings the game one step closer to being insipid, generic, and generally just that much more boring.
And, for what? A 2% boost in performance to alleviate the erroneous assertion that "people won't include me in their party" or some other nonsense? It's not worth it. This crap, right here, that you're doing is what ruined WoW's RPG aspects. But, hey, at least it's E-Sports ready...
Pointing out the existence of a disparity is NOT the problem. The problem is that the disparity exists.
Edit: And the RP ship has sailed a bit when they gave argonians the wrong resistances, wood elves becoming anti stealthy, high elves having an odd regen passive, and orcs favor medium armor builds over heavy armor. It’s like eso exists in a pocket universe where the other ES games don’t exist. The lore got seriously messed up.Edited by BlueRaven on August 17, 2019 5:55PM10 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »ZOS went into the racial rebalance with the goal is making races more balanced. Instead, all they did was reshuffle the meta. Let's look at where the meta is now that things have had time to settle.
Orc is the clear-cut BiS race for stamina DD now. They parse 2-3k higher than Redguard/Bosmer/Khajiit.
Magicka DD started out fairly balanced, but the nerf to gold food in Elsweyr pushed Breton into the clear-cut BiS role.
All they did was force a meta shift from Redguard/Dunmer to Orc/Breton.
Healer/tank are more forgiving roles so the meta is more flexible there. But as far as DD balance goes, it's not any better than it was before the patch, just different. So my question is, what was the point of the racial rebalancing patch?
Dude... as long as people are chasing the META and scrutinizing minuscule % differences, there will never be "balance".
Statistical parity will not happen UNLESS the devs remove any possible variations between the different options, i.e., they streamline and dumb everything down to CoD FPS levels of equality.
Do you want Call of Elder Scrolls? 'Cuz, this is how you get Call of Elder Scrolls. Just ask WoW players.
@srfrogg23 what the heck does call of duty have to do with this
pretty crazy people still use it as an easy target for their slippery slope arguments like this
Oh, ok. By all means. Keeping pushing for the continued dumbing down of the character building and progression mechanics in the name of statistical parity. I'm sure it won't have a negative impact on build diversity.
No, I didn't literally mean it would turn into CoD. It's a metaphorical statement meant to inspire a certain mental connection to a design philosophy that is based on complete and utter fairness for the sake of competitive gameplay but is ultimately dull and antithetical to the RPG genre's philosophy of personalization through unique identities based on strengths and weaknesses- i.e. NOT EFFING DPS PARSES!!!
Racial passives don't result in build diversity. If you min-max, you will always pick the best race.
And you don't need passives locked behind races to create "RPG depth". Depth comes from gear choice, CP allocation, attribute allocation, etc. Linking a cosmetic feature (race) to gameplay mechanics is poor design if anything.
That's my whole point. Stop min/maxing. Stop searching for statistical parity. Stop with the dps parses. Every single little thing the devs do to pursue your desired goal chips away at the depth of the game systems and brings the game one step closer to being insipid, generic, and generally just that much more boring.
And, for what? A 2% boost in performance to alleviate the erroneous assertion that "people won't include me in their party" or some other nonsense? It's not worth it. This crap, right here, that you're doing is what ruined WoW's RPG aspects. But, hey, at least it's E-Sports ready...
Your idea is good, but it doesn't work in practice. Raid requirements are very strict, I'm not speaking about what people think or invented as "BiS", I'm speaking about actual requirements to complete the content. And of course top guilds can complete dlc vet trials without CP, but majority of progression groups need to squeeze everything to kill different bosses reliably. Race here is secondary to gear, but still matters.
And everybody is well informed. I had AY dagger drop this week. When I printed it in chat nobody needed it, while before you will be whispered by several people immediately even before you open your inventory to check what dropped. Patch just landed and everybody already knows that VMA DW is best and everything else is meh. Same for races. Everybody knows orc is best, and all other races are like secondary choices. Try creating argonian stamcro for raiding, every second person will ask why you dps on argonian.4 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »ZOS went into the racial rebalance with the goal is making races more balanced. Instead, all they did was reshuffle the meta. Let's look at where the meta is now that things have had time to settle.
Orc is the clear-cut BiS race for stamina DD now. They parse 2-3k higher than Redguard/Bosmer/Khajiit.
Magicka DD started out fairly balanced, but the nerf to gold food in Elsweyr pushed Breton into the clear-cut BiS role.
All they did was force a meta shift from Redguard/Dunmer to Orc/Breton.
Healer/tank are more forgiving roles so the meta is more flexible there. But as far as DD balance goes, it's not any better than it was before the patch, just different. So my question is, what was the point of the racial rebalancing patch?
Dude... as long as people are chasing the META and scrutinizing minuscule % differences, there will never be "balance".
Statistical parity will not happen UNLESS the devs remove any possible variations between the different options, i.e., they streamline and dumb everything down to CoD FPS levels of equality.
Do you want Call of Elder Scrolls? 'Cuz, this is how you get Call of Elder Scrolls. Just ask WoW players.
@srfrogg23 what the heck does call of duty have to do with this
pretty crazy people still use it as an easy target for their slippery slope arguments like this
Oh, ok. By all means. Keeping pushing for the continued dumbing down of the character building and progression mechanics in the name of statistical parity. I'm sure it won't have a negative impact on build diversity.
No, I didn't literally mean it would turn into CoD. It's a metaphorical statement meant to inspire a certain mental connection to a design philosophy that is based on complete and utter fairness for the sake of competitive gameplay but is ultimately dull and antithetical to the RPG genre's philosophy of personalization through unique identities based on strengths and weaknesses- i.e. NOT EFFING DPS PARSES!!!
Racial passives don't result in build diversity. If you min-max, you will always pick the best race.
And you don't need passives locked behind races to create "RPG depth". Depth comes from gear choice, CP allocation, attribute allocation, etc. Linking a cosmetic feature (race) to gameplay mechanics is poor design if anything.
That's my whole point. Stop min/maxing. Stop searching for statistical parity. Stop with the dps parses. Every single little thing the devs do to pursue your desired goal chips away at the depth of the game systems and brings the game one step closer to being insipid, generic, and generally just that much more boring.
And, for what? A 2% boost in performance to alleviate the erroneous assertion that "people won't include me in their party" or some other nonsense? It's not worth it. This crap, right here, that you're doing is what ruined WoW's RPG aspects. But, hey, at least it's E-Sports ready...
You're contradicting yourself. Depth implies having systems that force you to make difficult build decisions. You say you don't want simplicity, a la CoD. But then you say don't min/max.
The whole point of gameplay depth is to allow for min/maxing. That's why gear, racials, attributes, etc. have numerical values attached to them. The goal in these games is to find the optimal combination of these values.
You're actually the one who is suggesting that gameplay systems be dumbed down.Edited by MLGProPlayer on August 18, 2019 12:16AM3 -
srfrogg23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »ZOS went into the racial rebalance with the goal is making races more balanced. Instead, all they did was reshuffle the meta. Let's look at where the meta is now that things have had time to settle.
Orc is the clear-cut BiS race for stamina DD now. They parse 2-3k higher than Redguard/Bosmer/Khajiit.
Magicka DD started out fairly balanced, but the nerf to gold food in Elsweyr pushed Breton into the clear-cut BiS role.
All they did was force a meta shift from Redguard/Dunmer to Orc/Breton.
Healer/tank are more forgiving roles so the meta is more flexible there. But as far as DD balance goes, it's not any better than it was before the patch, just different. So my question is, what was the point of the racial rebalancing patch?
Dude... as long as people are chasing the META and scrutinizing minuscule % differences, there will never be "balance".
Statistical parity will not happen UNLESS the devs remove any possible variations between the different options, i.e., they streamline and dumb everything down to CoD FPS levels of equality.
Do you want Call of Elder Scrolls? 'Cuz, this is how you get Call of Elder Scrolls. Just ask WoW players.
@srfrogg23 what the heck does call of duty have to do with this
pretty crazy people still use it as an easy target for their slippery slope arguments like this
Oh, ok. By all means. Keeping pushing for the continued dumbing down of the character building and progression mechanics in the name of statistical parity. I'm sure it won't have a negative impact on build diversity.
No, I didn't literally mean it would turn into CoD. It's a metaphorical statement meant to inspire a certain mental connection to a design philosophy that is based on complete and utter fairness for the sake of competitive gameplay but is ultimately dull and antithetical to the RPG genre's philosophy of personalization through unique identities based on strengths and weaknesses- i.e. NOT EFFING DPS PARSES!!!
Racial passives don't result in build diversity. If you min-max, you will always pick the best race.
And you don't need passives locked behind races to create "RPG depth". Depth comes from gear choice, CP allocation, attribute allocation, etc. Linking a cosmetic feature (race) to gameplay mechanics is poor design if anything.
That's my whole point. Stop min/maxing. Stop searching for statistical parity. Stop with the dps parses. Every single little thing the devs do to pursue your desired goal chips away at the depth of the game systems and brings the game one step closer to being insipid, generic, and generally just that much more boring.
And, for what? A 2% boost in performance to alleviate the erroneous assertion that "people won't include me in their party" or some other nonsense? It's not worth it. This crap, right here, that you're doing is what ruined WoW's RPG aspects. But, hey, at least it's E-Sports ready...
You're contradicting yourself. Depth implies having systems that force you to make difficult build decisions. You say you don't want simplicity, a la CoD. But then you say don't min/max.
The whole point of gameplay depth is to allow for min/maxing. That's why gear, racials, attributes, etc. have numerical values attached to them. The goal in these games is to find the optimal combination of these values.
You're actually the one who is suggesting that gameplay systems be dumbed down.
I'm not contradicting myself. I am saying that you should stop demanding homogenization for the sake of perfect parses. The only way you'll get what you're asking for is to play a game where choices become purely cosmetic. There will be no "difficult build choices" because the only difference will be how things look, not how they perform.
Zero contradictions.Edited by srfrogg23 on August 18, 2019 2:16AM0 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »ZOS went into the racial rebalance with the goal is making races more balanced. Instead, all they did was reshuffle the meta. Let's look at where the meta is now that things have had time to settle.
Orc is the clear-cut BiS race for stamina DD now. They parse 2-3k higher than Redguard/Bosmer/Khajiit.
Magicka DD started out fairly balanced, but the nerf to gold food in Elsweyr pushed Breton into the clear-cut BiS role.
All they did was force a meta shift from Redguard/Dunmer to Orc/Breton.
Healer/tank are more forgiving roles so the meta is more flexible there. But as far as DD balance goes, it's not any better than it was before the patch, just different. So my question is, what was the point of the racial rebalancing patch?
Dude... as long as people are chasing the META and scrutinizing minuscule % differences, there will never be "balance".
Statistical parity will not happen UNLESS the devs remove any possible variations between the different options, i.e., they streamline and dumb everything down to CoD FPS levels of equality.
Do you want Call of Elder Scrolls? 'Cuz, this is how you get Call of Elder Scrolls. Just ask WoW players.
@srfrogg23 what the heck does call of duty have to do with this
pretty crazy people still use it as an easy target for their slippery slope arguments like this
Oh, ok. By all means. Keeping pushing for the continued dumbing down of the character building and progression mechanics in the name of statistical parity. I'm sure it won't have a negative impact on build diversity.
No, I didn't literally mean it would turn into CoD. It's a metaphorical statement meant to inspire a certain mental connection to a design philosophy that is based on complete and utter fairness for the sake of competitive gameplay but is ultimately dull and antithetical to the RPG genre's philosophy of personalization through unique identities based on strengths and weaknesses- i.e. NOT EFFING DPS PARSES!!!
Racial passives don't result in build diversity. If you min-max, you will always pick the best race.
And you don't need passives locked behind races to create "RPG depth". Depth comes from gear choice, CP allocation, attribute allocation, etc. Linking a cosmetic feature (race) to gameplay mechanics is poor design if anything.
That's my whole point. Stop min/maxing. Stop searching for statistical parity. Stop with the dps parses. Every single little thing the devs do to pursue your desired goal chips away at the depth of the game systems and brings the game one step closer to being insipid, generic, and generally just that much more boring.
And, for what? A 2% boost in performance to alleviate the erroneous assertion that "people won't include me in their party" or some other nonsense? It's not worth it. This crap, right here, that you're doing is what ruined WoW's RPG aspects. But, hey, at least it's E-Sports ready...
You're contradicting yourself. Depth implies having systems that force you to make difficult build decisions. You say you don't want simplicity, a la CoD. But then you say don't min/max.
The whole point of gameplay depth is to allow for min/maxing. That's why gear, racials, attributes, etc. have numerical values attached to them. The goal in these games is to find the optimal combination of these values.
You're actually the one who is suggesting that gameplay systems be dumbed down.
I'm not contradicting myself. I am saying that you should stop demanding homogenization for the sake of perfect parses. The only way you'll get what you're asking for is to play a game where choices become purely cosmetic. There will be no "difficult build choices" because the only difference will be how things look, not how they perform.
Zero contradictions.
That doesn't make sense. You can tie gameplay depth to non-cosmetic systems.
For example, CP, attributes, and gear are not tied to how your character looks.
Imagine if ZOS created 30 "character passives" (instead of racial passives) and let every character choose 3 out of the 30 passives (or maybe a preset package of 3 passives to keep things identical to the current system). You'd have the same amount of depth you have now, except you wouldn't be limited to which race you can play.Edited by MLGProPlayer on August 18, 2019 3:39AM4 -
DKMaestro✭✭✭All this nonsense about "meta" and "BiS"... Big, fancy words for saying "copy-paste that build and be one with it". What happened to "play however you like" ? Can't believe some people actually defend the idea that there can be only one way to play, either. This game has potential for creativity, but the dev team itself tries very hard to limit that.
I am sorry to tell u this : but some of us play in order to be the Best, to be in the top of all the tanking... For those guys, yeah Bis and meta is a huge things, that is why you are see right Now 8 stamcro all running the same stuff and the same build doing the same rotation...
I am sorry to tell you this, but 95% + don’t play to be the best, so, why you are certainly welcome to have an opinion, we are tired of constant changes that only caters to the few that constantly post and want change.
The gap from best to worst from any of the Magicka and stamina races, is probably not more than 5% tops, and that’s if you don’t F up your rotation and have no lag and yadyadayada...
If it means that much to you, change race and stop complaining!Old man playing. Have a life, a job and only one character, which is grumpy (all the time)0 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭All this nonsense about "meta" and "BiS"... Big, fancy words for saying "copy-paste that build and be one with it". What happened to "play however you like" ? Can't believe some people actually defend the idea that there can be only one way to play, either. This game has potential for creativity, but the dev team itself tries very hard to limit that.
I am sorry to tell u this : but some of us play in order to be the Best, to be in the top of all the tanking... For those guys, yeah Bis and meta is a huge things, that is why you are see right Now 8 stamcro all running the same stuff and the same build doing the same rotation...
I am sorry to tell you this, but 95% + don’t play to be the best, so, why you are certainly welcome to have an opinion, we are tired of constant changes that only caters to the few that constantly post and want change.
The gap from best to worst from any of the Magicka and stamina races, is probably not more than 5% tops, and that’s if you don’t F up your rotation and have no lag and yadyadayada...
If it means that much to you, change race and stop complaining!
If you don't care about min/maxing, how would ZOS making the game more balanced affect you?Edited by MLGProPlayer on August 18, 2019 3:57AM2 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »ZOS went into the racial rebalance with the goal is making races more balanced. Instead, all they did was reshuffle the meta. Let's look at where the meta is now that things have had time to settle.
Orc is the clear-cut BiS race for stamina DD now. They parse 2-3k higher than Redguard/Bosmer/Khajiit.
Magicka DD started out fairly balanced, but the nerf to gold food in Elsweyr pushed Breton into the clear-cut BiS role.
All they did was force a meta shift from Redguard/Dunmer to Orc/Breton.
Healer/tank are more forgiving roles so the meta is more flexible there. But as far as DD balance goes, it's not any better than it was before the patch, just different. So my question is, what was the point of the racial rebalancing patch?
Dude... as long as people are chasing the META and scrutinizing minuscule % differences, there will never be "balance".
Statistical parity will not happen UNLESS the devs remove any possible variations between the different options, i.e., they streamline and dumb everything down to CoD FPS levels of equality.
Do you want Call of Elder Scrolls? 'Cuz, this is how you get Call of Elder Scrolls. Just ask WoW players.
@srfrogg23 what the heck does call of duty have to do with this
pretty crazy people still use it as an easy target for their slippery slope arguments like this
Oh, ok. By all means. Keeping pushing for the continued dumbing down of the character building and progression mechanics in the name of statistical parity. I'm sure it won't have a negative impact on build diversity.
No, I didn't literally mean it would turn into CoD. It's a metaphorical statement meant to inspire a certain mental connection to a design philosophy that is based on complete and utter fairness for the sake of competitive gameplay but is ultimately dull and antithetical to the RPG genre's philosophy of personalization through unique identities based on strengths and weaknesses- i.e. NOT EFFING DPS PARSES!!!
Racial passives don't result in build diversity. If you min-max, you will always pick the best race.
And you don't need passives locked behind races to create "RPG depth". Depth comes from gear choice, CP allocation, attribute allocation, etc. Linking a cosmetic feature (race) to gameplay mechanics is poor design if anything.
That's my whole point. Stop min/maxing. Stop searching for statistical parity. Stop with the dps parses. Every single little thing the devs do to pursue your desired goal chips away at the depth of the game systems and brings the game one step closer to being insipid, generic, and generally just that much more boring.
And, for what? A 2% boost in performance to alleviate the erroneous assertion that "people won't include me in their party" or some other nonsense? It's not worth it. This crap, right here, that you're doing is what ruined WoW's RPG aspects. But, hey, at least it's E-Sports ready...
You're contradicting yourself. Depth implies having systems that force you to make difficult build decisions. You say you don't want simplicity, a la CoD. But then you say don't min/max.
The whole point of gameplay depth is to allow for min/maxing. That's why gear, racials, attributes, etc. have numerical values attached to them. The goal in these games is to find the optimal combination of these values.
You're actually the one who is suggesting that gameplay systems be dumbed down.
I'm not contradicting myself. I am saying that you should stop demanding homogenization for the sake of perfect parses. The only way you'll get what you're asking for is to play a game where choices become purely cosmetic. There will be no "difficult build choices" because the only difference will be how things look, not how they perform.
Zero contradictions.
That doesn't make sense. You can tie gameplay depth to non-cosmetic systems.
For example, CP, attributes, and gear are not tied to how your character looks.
Imagine if ZOS created 30 "character passives" (instead of racial passives) and let every character choose 3 out of the 30 passives (or maybe a preset package of 3 passives to keep things identical to the current system). You'd have the same amount of depth you have now, except you wouldn't be limited to which race you can play.
I kind of like your idea, but I also like certain races having certain passives "assigned" to them. So here is my spin on it;
Take the same thirty (or so) passives and assign each of the ten races three of them that are appropriate.
THEN allow the player to unlock any of the remaining twenty-seven passives by spending a skill point. The player would STILL have to level up the passive in the normal way (by spending three additional skill points).
This would give the races individuality, BUT also allow players to reconfigure the race so we could have spell casting wood elves and tank-y bretons.
4 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »ZOS went into the racial rebalance with the goal is making races more balanced. Instead, all they did was reshuffle the meta. Let's look at where the meta is now that things have had time to settle.
Orc is the clear-cut BiS race for stamina DD now. They parse 2-3k higher than Redguard/Bosmer/Khajiit.
Magicka DD started out fairly balanced, but the nerf to gold food in Elsweyr pushed Breton into the clear-cut BiS role.
All they did was force a meta shift from Redguard/Dunmer to Orc/Breton.
Healer/tank are more forgiving roles so the meta is more flexible there. But as far as DD balance goes, it's not any better than it was before the patch, just different. So my question is, what was the point of the racial rebalancing patch?
Dude... as long as people are chasing the META and scrutinizing minuscule % differences, there will never be "balance".
Statistical parity will not happen UNLESS the devs remove any possible variations between the different options, i.e., they streamline and dumb everything down to CoD FPS levels of equality.
Do you want Call of Elder Scrolls? 'Cuz, this is how you get Call of Elder Scrolls. Just ask WoW players.
@srfrogg23 what the heck does call of duty have to do with this
pretty crazy people still use it as an easy target for their slippery slope arguments like this
Oh, ok. By all means. Keeping pushing for the continued dumbing down of the character building and progression mechanics in the name of statistical parity. I'm sure it won't have a negative impact on build diversity.
No, I didn't literally mean it would turn into CoD. It's a metaphorical statement meant to inspire a certain mental connection to a design philosophy that is based on complete and utter fairness for the sake of competitive gameplay but is ultimately dull and antithetical to the RPG genre's philosophy of personalization through unique identities based on strengths and weaknesses- i.e. NOT EFFING DPS PARSES!!!
Racial passives don't result in build diversity. If you min-max, you will always pick the best race.
And you don't need passives locked behind races to create "RPG depth". Depth comes from gear choice, CP allocation, attribute allocation, etc. Linking a cosmetic feature (race) to gameplay mechanics is poor design if anything.
That's my whole point. Stop min/maxing. Stop searching for statistical parity. Stop with the dps parses. Every single little thing the devs do to pursue your desired goal chips away at the depth of the game systems and brings the game one step closer to being insipid, generic, and generally just that much more boring.
And, for what? A 2% boost in performance to alleviate the erroneous assertion that "people won't include me in their party" or some other nonsense? It's not worth it. This crap, right here, that you're doing is what ruined WoW's RPG aspects. But, hey, at least it's E-Sports ready...
You're contradicting yourself. Depth implies having systems that force you to make difficult build decisions. You say you don't want simplicity, a la CoD. But then you say don't min/max.
The whole point of gameplay depth is to allow for min/maxing. That's why gear, racials, attributes, etc. have numerical values attached to them. The goal in these games is to find the optimal combination of these values.
You're actually the one who is suggesting that gameplay systems be dumbed down.
I'm not contradicting myself. I am saying that you should stop demanding homogenization for the sake of perfect parses. The only way you'll get what you're asking for is to play a game where choices become purely cosmetic. There will be no "difficult build choices" because the only difference will be how things look, not how they perform.
Zero contradictions.
That doesn't make sense. You can tie gameplay depth to non-cosmetic systems.
For example, CP, attributes, and gear are not tied to how your character looks.
Imagine if ZOS created 30 "character passives" (instead of racial passives) and let every character choose 3 out of the 30 passives (or maybe a preset package of 3 passives to keep things identical to the current system). You'd have the same amount of depth you have now, except you wouldn't be limited to which race you can play.
I kind of like your idea, but I also like certain races having certain passives "assigned" to them. So here is my spin on it;
Take the same thirty (or so) passives and assign each of the ten races three of them that are appropriate.
THEN allow the player to unlock any of the remaining twenty-seven passives by spending a skill point. The player would STILL have to level up the passive in the normal way (by spending three additional skill points).
This would give the races individuality, BUT also allow players to reconfigure the race so we could have spell casting wood elves and tank-y bretons.
That's kind of how the single player games work. I like it.Edited by MLGProPlayer on August 18, 2019 4:01AM2 -
idk✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »AbysmalGhul wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »All this nonsense about "meta" and "BiS"... Big, fancy words for saying "copy-paste that build and be one with it". What happened to "play however you like" ? Can't believe some people actually defend the idea that there can be only one way to play, either. This game has potential for creativity, but the dev team itself tries very hard to limit that.
I am sorry to tell u this : but some of us play in order to be the Best, to be in the top of all the tanking... For those guys, yeah Bis and meta is a huge things, that is why you are see right Now 8 stamcro all running the same stuff and the same build doing the same rotation...
And that's precisely the problem that needs to be addressed. There needs to be more variety in endgame.
But why do other players get to decide that? If people want to run a stamcro meta, then so be it. That's between the 12 people that are doing the trial.
There is plenty of variety in end game. People seem to focus on the very few groups that do this
It's the optimal setup for any group.
Competitive raid groups do not decide what your character race will be. Yes, they will likely have a minimum DPS to run on their team but a players skill goes much further than the difference between Dunmer and Bretton does.
Further, as long as their are race passive that have any effect on damage there will be a preferred class. It comes down to the math and that is indisputable.
Alaya has it pretty correct https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/comment/6273731/#Comment_6273731
Doubt Zos gives this thread a second of attention. They have stated they have no interest in revisiting racial passives right now. It makes great sense to make the passive changes at the beginning of the process we are currently in so they can see the effects it has once they complete all these changes.
Paying attention to the effects it has on the game once this is done makes sense. Anytime before then is a waste of time.Edited by idk on August 18, 2019 4:10AM0 -
srfrogg23✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »ZOS went into the racial rebalance with the goal is making races more balanced. Instead, all they did was reshuffle the meta. Let's look at where the meta is now that things have had time to settle.
Orc is the clear-cut BiS race for stamina DD now. They parse 2-3k higher than Redguard/Bosmer/Khajiit.
Magicka DD started out fairly balanced, but the nerf to gold food in Elsweyr pushed Breton into the clear-cut BiS role.
All they did was force a meta shift from Redguard/Dunmer to Orc/Breton.
Healer/tank are more forgiving roles so the meta is more flexible there. But as far as DD balance goes, it's not any better than it was before the patch, just different. So my question is, what was the point of the racial rebalancing patch?
Dude... as long as people are chasing the META and scrutinizing minuscule % differences, there will never be "balance".
Statistical parity will not happen UNLESS the devs remove any possible variations between the different options, i.e., they streamline and dumb everything down to CoD FPS levels of equality.
Do you want Call of Elder Scrolls? 'Cuz, this is how you get Call of Elder Scrolls. Just ask WoW players.
@srfrogg23 what the heck does call of duty have to do with this
pretty crazy people still use it as an easy target for their slippery slope arguments like this
Oh, ok. By all means. Keeping pushing for the continued dumbing down of the character building and progression mechanics in the name of statistical parity. I'm sure it won't have a negative impact on build diversity.
No, I didn't literally mean it would turn into CoD. It's a metaphorical statement meant to inspire a certain mental connection to a design philosophy that is based on complete and utter fairness for the sake of competitive gameplay but is ultimately dull and antithetical to the RPG genre's philosophy of personalization through unique identities based on strengths and weaknesses- i.e. NOT EFFING DPS PARSES!!!
Racial passives don't result in build diversity. If you min-max, you will always pick the best race.
And you don't need passives locked behind races to create "RPG depth". Depth comes from gear choice, CP allocation, attribute allocation, etc. Linking a cosmetic feature (race) to gameplay mechanics is poor design if anything.
That's my whole point. Stop min/maxing. Stop searching for statistical parity. Stop with the dps parses. Every single little thing the devs do to pursue your desired goal chips away at the depth of the game systems and brings the game one step closer to being insipid, generic, and generally just that much more boring.
And, for what? A 2% boost in performance to alleviate the erroneous assertion that "people won't include me in their party" or some other nonsense? It's not worth it. This crap, right here, that you're doing is what ruined WoW's RPG aspects. But, hey, at least it's E-Sports ready...
You're contradicting yourself. Depth implies having systems that force you to make difficult build decisions. You say you don't want simplicity, a la CoD. But then you say don't min/max.
The whole point of gameplay depth is to allow for min/maxing. That's why gear, racials, attributes, etc. have numerical values attached to them. The goal in these games is to find the optimal combination of these values.
You're actually the one who is suggesting that gameplay systems be dumbed down.
I'm not contradicting myself. I am saying that you should stop demanding homogenization for the sake of perfect parses. The only way you'll get what you're asking for is to play a game where choices become purely cosmetic. There will be no "difficult build choices" because the only difference will be how things look, not how they perform.
Zero contradictions.
That doesn't make sense. You can tie gameplay depth to non-cosmetic systems.
For example, CP, attributes, and gear are not tied to how your character looks.
Imagine if ZOS created 30 "character passives" (instead of racial passives) and let every character choose 3 out of the 30 passives (or maybe a preset package of 3 passives to keep things identical to the current system). You'd have the same amount of depth you have now, except you wouldn't be limited to which race you can play.
No, no, no. You're looking at this from the exact opposite direction that you need to look at it from.
The ONLY way to ensure everything is "balanced" is by gutting and dumbing-down everything until it becomes purely cosmetic. It is at that point that choices cease to be meaningful.
I.e., everything performs exactly the same and you're left with options that boil down to, "how do you want it to look? Blue fire or red?"
Which is why I say, stop worrying about standardization, parity, equality of performance. Stop parsing, stop analyzing, just play the game. The different races have different bonuses for flavor and it has a negligible affect on performance. Let it go.0 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »
That doesn't make sense. You can tie gameplay depth to non-cosmetic systems.
For example, CP, attributes, and gear are not tied to how your character looks.
Imagine if ZOS created 30 "character passives" (instead of racial passives) and let every character choose 3 out of the 30 passives (or maybe a preset package of 3 passives to keep things identical to the current system). You'd have the same amount of depth you have now, except you wouldn't be limited to which race you can play.
I kind of like your idea, but I also like certain races having certain passives "assigned" to them. So here is my spin on it;
Take the same thirty (or so) passives and assign each of the ten races three of them that are appropriate.
THEN allow the player to unlock any of the remaining twenty-seven passives by spending a skill point. The player would STILL have to level up the passive in the normal way (by spending three additional skill points).
This would give the races individuality, BUT also allow players to reconfigure the race so we could have spell casting wood elves and tank-y bretons.
I'd actually be okay with that. Sure, it would boil down to "these are the best passives, so take them" in the end, so everyone is the same again, but at least racial identity wouldn't be lost on the way and the system sounds fun if done right. I think I'd like it if the racial "talents" are already unlocked at the start without needing to level them up anymore. That way the separation between innate talent and acquired talents is more clear and makes more sense.
What I would like to see them do with the current system is carving out more niches for each of the races to inhabit. Bosmer and Redguards both only have sustain going for them, so if one of them is clearly better, then the other will be left behind. I don't think anyone wants that. No matter the race I pick, I want to be able to do any type of content if I play well enough. That toptier raiding guilds won't let you in unless you are perfect is a shame, but the system should by design leave that sort of behavior as little room as possible. So in that sense, races should be balanced and they should have clear strengths. They also should align with the expectations set by the standards of the previous games and the lore surrounding them.
Here are my thoughts on the all the current racial passives:- Altmer
- Stat stick. Too narrowly focused on high spell damage alone
- Useless for tanking, maginally useful for healing.
- Spell damage increases healing done, but healing done increase from 258 spell damage is not meaningful enough to compensate anything.
- Spell recharge is not useful enough to matter, besides being not true to the race's lore and should be changed to something that separates them further from Dunmer.
- Argonians
- Hopelessly outclassed as tank by Imperials and Nords and as healers by Bretons, bad in the damage department.
- Potion passive is too ambivalent yet strong that it hogs all of their potential power without being enough to make them ideal for any situation. It may need a nerf just to free up space for more.
- I propose Argonians should get a significant boost to healing done to make them "the healing tank - the tank that heals". If you want to run a dungeon with 3 dps and no healer, this is the tank you want to see.
- Clarification for the readers. significant means significant. It's not supposed to be broken OP so that it becomes a problem in PvP, but noticeable enough that it matters.
- In order to be even considered for DPS they need 2000 of a max resource. They also need 2000 max health so that tanks, in order to get their max stamina above their max magicka, don't have to sacrifice health in the process.
- Bretons
- ...are perfect. Their core strength is sustain. Sustain is currently the single most important stat for healers, but it allows them to go dps too and be great at it. Their spell resistances is niche but still an interesting bonus for a tank and never unwanted. Considering they have more magicka sustain than Argonians, the can even make for interesting Sorc tanks and even some stambuilds like stamblades appreciate getting to use their expensive magicka skills more.
- Used to have magicka return upon being hit with spells in older games. This could potentially work in ESO too although there is currently no need for a change like that. It needs to be remembered for the future in case it ever becomes important.
- Bosmer
- Stat stick. Their biggest and arguably only strength is the stamina recovery.
- Lacks in identity and theme. Archery and stealth are their thing, but none of that is represented in their racials (apart from experience gain to Bow skill).
- Hunter's Eye is a mess. It is only useful in PvP as you get forced to dodgeroll to survive a lot. In PvE any unnecessary dodgeroll hurts your sustain too much, thus conflicting with your only other strength that can't compensate for the rolls. Also due to the nature of this passive a Bosmer will never have 100% uptime on the penetration, so either you'll adjust for that at the cost of overpenetration or you adjust by running lower than average penetration and tie your success to your penetration uptime at the cost of your sustain. Making the penetration a permanent effect would solve a lot of issues.
- Detection is useless in PvE and close enough to being useless to be useless in PvP
- The Poison resistance is their most unique feature as werewolfs might want to pick it up for compensation if they can affort do lose out on Orc passives for it.
- Even though Archery is their core identity, they shouldn't be shoehorned into a particular weapon, but even melee builds use some ranged skills so perhaps that's where Bosmer could be different from Redguards.
- Dunmer
- Stat stick, but overall good. Shares the strength of Orc and Altmer where it matters and brings unique and useful fire resistance to the table, which Vampires love.
- Although hybrid builds are not currently viable, having additional stamina benefits magicka builds and unlike Altmer their passive is not an insignificant waste of skill points like the Altmer spell recharge, so you don't feel bad for taking it.
- Dunmer are in a good spot despite not quite taking the cake anywhere.
- Imperials
- Another good race. Strong tanks due to sustain and increased ult uptime.
- They are the jack-of-all sustains because of their universal 3% cost reduction. It applies to block, dodgeroll, sneak, anything that has a cost. An appropriate boost for a race that's locked behind a paywall as it needs to be able to suit as many people as possible. This is what allows them to be strong tanks and that is fitting for a race that's supposedly not all that hardy. Their training and discipline is what allows them to go toe to toe with sturdier races. In case of another overhall, this is what needs to be remembered as their theme.
- Khajiit
- The crit hybrid race. Critical strikes are their identity in ESO right now, but Orcs and Altmer have higher crits because of the way the system works (so I've heard). This also means they aren't as strong in PvP because everyone is running Impen.
- So despite having what sounds like a strong identity and niche, it's actually not as good as it sounds. Still, they aren't too bad and their sustain isn't too far behind that of Argonians. They deal enough damage to be considered good and are, as far as I am aware, being let into toptier raiding groups. Even in PvP 10% more crit damage is still 10% more crit damage, so they aren't useless.
- Their issue is mainly an identity issue. They used to be good at acrobatics in Morrowind and Oblivion before it was removed in Skyrim, so maybe this is something they could return to. Reduced cost for dodgeroll and sprint doesn't sound bad and combined with their crit passive they would feel much more rounded.
- Furthermore they are currently the only race with a bonus to stealth, which is unique but also unjust as Bosmer have been traditionally a stealth race too. Argonians and Dunmer have technically been stealth races and as long as you don't combat stats with stealth stats you don't run the risk of imbalancing anything so they could gain a stealth bonus too without worry.
- Nords
- Awesome tanks, bad dps, bad healers. They need 500 stamina more to be more in line in terms of damage with the other races. In order to go from bad dps to good dps without hurting anything else, their ulti gen passive needs to be changed to work without getting damaged. It's probably a mess to balance but the key to making them viable as dps and perhaps as healers too.
- Ideally they should get 1000 more max health too because it's weird to me that Imperials get more max health than Nords when Nords are more built to take a hit in-universe. (Remember, Imperials go toe-to-toe with them because of their expertise, not their raw strength and bulkiness). Alternatively Imperials can get brought down to 1000, but I hate calling for nerfs when it's perfectly fine the way it is. So 2000 health Nord please!
- Orsimer
- When in doubt about stamina, go Orc. This has become a saying since Wrathstone. No matter the content, if you want to go stamina, then Orc is a good and possibly the best choice.
- In terms of tanking Orcs lost their tankiness for their damage, which is a bit of a shame, considering they are supposedly one of the sturdiest races on Tamriel. I was told by some supposed toptier raiders that Orcs are favored as off-tanks by some, which is a theme I like. If Argonians are heal-tanks, then Orcs are off-tanks. Similarly I would like to see them gain another 1000 health to be more suited for the tanking role.
- Thematically the sprint boost, while very useful overall particularly in PvP, is not something Orcs have been known for before ESO. In fact, they have been slower than average in Morrowind. Personally I prefer the image of an unstoppable Orc that can "shake it off" to the sprinter Orc we currently have. So I'd suggest the sprint boost gets changed to a reduced breakfree cost and reduction to snare effectivity. They are strong and heavy, which makes them hard to stop but also not very fast. However it does reduce the Orc's offensive capabilities in PvP a bit for some more defense, which addresses some of the issues people are currently seeing with Orcs being too good.
- Redguards
- Formerly uncontested stamina race, now lower tier dps race. Due to their conditionals, Redguards are worse than Bosmer on melee builds using class skills and paradoxically better using ranged weapon skills.
- In-universe Redguards are supposedly the sword masters and not necessarily the bow masters, which is the Bosmer's core theme, but it's easier to proc their passive consistently with a ranged weapon, which drives them towards bows. I believe the expectations of a race's performance are set by the standards of the previous games and the lore surrounding them, so this is something that cannot stand, but a potential fix should not make bows on Redguards an impossibility. Should Bosmer be changed in a way that allows them to work better with bows, then the issue will have solved itself and there will be no need to further address this.
- As long as ZOS clings to their philosophy of not mixing sustain and damage buffs (which Khajiit are clearly already breaking), then Bosmer and Redguards will eternally be competing for the same niche in the meta unless their passives get restricted, which nobody wants to see.
- The problem of Redguards and Bosmer being too similar is mostly caused by Bosmer not being true to their original theme of stealth archery anymore and invading the Redguard's space. There would be no issue if Redguards had superior sustain and Bosmer had sustain and offensive boosts different from Orc, Dunmer and Khajiit. Penetration comes to mind. It's also possible to make Bosmer ranged and Redguards melee, but despite being accurate, it wouldn't feel just to tell people they can't play with that weapon on that race.
Edited by Ratzkifal on August 18, 2019 1:31PMThis Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.4 - Altmer
-
p_tsakirisb16_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭I think the problem with this thread, and with the issue about racial balances in general, is that there is a lot of people who are saying, "I don't do endgame content, thus all the racial are fine" (in effect).
And that's the problem. The racials are NOT balanced, and vehemently giving the opinion that you don't care about balance is not helpful, because all that does is help perpetuate the problems with the racial (and class) balances for future content.
In my opinion, having Stam and Magicka races in a game with an Elder Scrolls pedigree is just a baffling design in the first place. To then have those races unbalanced in their respective categories just brings bad design to a whole new level.
Those who care are chasing leaderboard numbers.
The significant majority except the 1% doesn't care less if their race is 2000 dps lower.
Many cannot do 5000 dps even at CP810.Edited by p_tsakirisb16_ESO on August 18, 2019 1:48PM0 -
Holycannoli✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »ZOS went into the racial rebalance with the goal is making races more balanced. Instead, all they did was reshuffle the meta. Let's look at where the meta is now that things have had time to settle.
Orc is the clear-cut BiS race for stamina DD now. They parse 2-3k higher than Redguard/Bosmer/Khajiit.
Magicka DD started out fairly balanced, but the nerf to gold food in Elsweyr pushed Breton into the clear-cut BiS role.
All they did was force a meta shift from Redguard/Dunmer to Orc/Breton.
Healer/tank are more forgiving roles so the meta is more flexible there. But as far as DD balance goes, it's not any better than it was before the patch, just different. So my question is, what was the point of the racial rebalancing patch?
So does that mean Daggerfall Covenant is the most popular alliance now?
(not everyone has Explorer Pack)0 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »I think the problem with this thread, and with the issue about racial balances in general, is that there is a lot of people who are saying, "I don't do endgame content, thus all the racial are fine" (in effect).
And that's the problem. The racials are NOT balanced, and vehemently giving the opinion that you don't care about balance is not helpful, because all that does is help perpetuate the problems with the racial (and class) balances for future content.
In my opinion, having Stam and Magicka races in a game with an Elder Scrolls pedigree is just a baffling design in the first place. To then have those races unbalanced in their respective categories just brings bad design to a whole new level.
Those who care are chasing leaderboard numbers.
The significant majority except the 1% doesn't care less if their race is 2000 dps lower.
Many cannot do 5000 dps even at CP810.
And those who don't care have no stakes in this. If their suboptimal race choice deals 2000 dps less, why complain if the 1% wants you to do 2000 dps more? The only solid argument I've heard taking this stance thus far is "don't make my build strong enough to be meta, because that will attract nerfs and I don't want to change my setup".
Just because the majority is indifferent, doesn't mean we should be indifferent towards it as well.This Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.3 -
BlueRaven✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »I think the problem with this thread, and with the issue about racial balances in general, is that there is a lot of people who are saying, "I don't do endgame content, thus all the racial are fine" (in effect).
And that's the problem. The racials are NOT balanced, and vehemently giving the opinion that you don't care about balance is not helpful, because all that does is help perpetuate the problems with the racial (and class) balances for future content.
In my opinion, having Stam and Magicka races in a game with an Elder Scrolls pedigree is just a baffling design in the first place. To then have those races unbalanced in their respective categories just brings bad design to a whole new level.
Those who care are chasing leaderboard numbers.
The significant majority except the 1% doesn't care less if their race is 2000 dps lower.
Many cannot do 5000 dps even at CP810.
/Sigh. It’s not about leader boards, it’s about being able to complete content. vMA, vDA, vMoL, vMaal these are SERIOUSLY difficult content to complete, forget about leader boards.
Why should a player’s race choices be an impediment to complete them? Why is this even a discussion?5 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »MLGProPlayer wrote: »ZOS went into the racial rebalance with the goal is making races more balanced. Instead, all they did was reshuffle the meta. Let's look at where the meta is now that things have had time to settle.
Orc is the clear-cut BiS race for stamina DD now. They parse 2-3k higher than Redguard/Bosmer/Khajiit.
Magicka DD started out fairly balanced, but the nerf to gold food in Elsweyr pushed Breton into the clear-cut BiS role.
All they did was force a meta shift from Redguard/Dunmer to Orc/Breton.
Healer/tank are more forgiving roles so the meta is more flexible there. But as far as DD balance goes, it's not any better than it was before the patch, just different. So my question is, what was the point of the racial rebalancing patch?
Dude... as long as people are chasing the META and scrutinizing minuscule % differences, there will never be "balance".
Statistical parity will not happen UNLESS the devs remove any possible variations between the different options, i.e., they streamline and dumb everything down to CoD FPS levels of equality.
Do you want Call of Elder Scrolls? 'Cuz, this is how you get Call of Elder Scrolls. Just ask WoW players.
@srfrogg23 what the heck does call of duty have to do with this
pretty crazy people still use it as an easy target for their slippery slope arguments like this
Oh, ok. By all means. Keeping pushing for the continued dumbing down of the character building and progression mechanics in the name of statistical parity. I'm sure it won't have a negative impact on build diversity.
No, I didn't literally mean it would turn into CoD. It's a metaphorical statement meant to inspire a certain mental connection to a design philosophy that is based on complete and utter fairness for the sake of competitive gameplay but is ultimately dull and antithetical to the RPG genre's philosophy of personalization through unique identities based on strengths and weaknesses- i.e. NOT EFFING DPS PARSES!!!
Racial passives don't result in build diversity. If you min-max, you will always pick the best race.
And you don't need passives locked behind races to create "RPG depth". Depth comes from gear choice, CP allocation, attribute allocation, etc. Linking a cosmetic feature (race) to gameplay mechanics is poor design if anything.
That's my whole point. Stop min/maxing. Stop searching for statistical parity. Stop with the dps parses. Every single little thing the devs do to pursue your desired goal chips away at the depth of the game systems and brings the game one step closer to being insipid, generic, and generally just that much more boring.
And, for what? A 2% boost in performance to alleviate the erroneous assertion that "people won't include me in their party" or some other nonsense? It's not worth it. This crap, right here, that you're doing is what ruined WoW's RPG aspects. But, hey, at least it's E-Sports ready...
You're contradicting yourself. Depth implies having systems that force you to make difficult build decisions. You say you don't want simplicity, a la CoD. But then you say don't min/max.
The whole point of gameplay depth is to allow for min/maxing. That's why gear, racials, attributes, etc. have numerical values attached to them. The goal in these games is to find the optimal combination of these values.
You're actually the one who is suggesting that gameplay systems be dumbed down.
I'm not contradicting myself. I am saying that you should stop demanding homogenization for the sake of perfect parses. The only way you'll get what you're asking for is to play a game where choices become purely cosmetic. There will be no "difficult build choices" because the only difference will be how things look, not how they perform.
Zero contradictions.
That doesn't make sense. You can tie gameplay depth to non-cosmetic systems.
For example, CP, attributes, and gear are not tied to how your character looks.
Imagine if ZOS created 30 "character passives" (instead of racial passives) and let every character choose 3 out of the 30 passives (or maybe a preset package of 3 passives to keep things identical to the current system). You'd have the same amount of depth you have now, except you wouldn't be limited to which race you can play.
No, no, no. You're looking at this from the exact opposite direction that you need to look at it from.
The ONLY way to ensure everything is "balanced" is by gutting and dumbing-down everything until it becomes purely cosmetic. It is at that point that choices cease to be meaningful.
I.e., everything performs exactly the same and you're left with options that boil down to, "how do you want it to look? Blue fire or red?"
Which is why I say, stop worrying about standardization, parity, equality of performance. Stop parsing, stop analyzing, just play the game. The different races have different bonuses for flavor and it has a negligible affect on performance. Let it go.
You're saying "don't dumb down the content".
But then you're saying "ignore stats and don't do parses".
Your suggestion is to literally "play dumb" and ignore all the gameplay depth there is.1 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »I think the problem with this thread, and with the issue about racial balances in general, is that there is a lot of people who are saying, "I don't do endgame content, thus all the racial are fine" (in effect).
And that's the problem. The racials are NOT balanced, and vehemently giving the opinion that you don't care about balance is not helpful, because all that does is help perpetuate the problems with the racial (and class) balances for future content.
In my opinion, having Stam and Magicka races in a game with an Elder Scrolls pedigree is just a baffling design in the first place. To then have those races unbalanced in their respective categories just brings bad design to a whole new level.
Those who care are chasing leaderboard numbers.
The significant majority except the 1% doesn't care less if their race is 2000 dps lower.
Many cannot do 5000 dps even at CP810.
Let's say someone is right on the edge of meeting a DPS parse requirement to join a raiding guild. I don't know what the requirements are on the new dummies. But on the old dummy, 45k single target was a pretty standard requirement in a lot of progression guilds. Let's say someone is at 43k with a Bosmer or Redguard and is having a hard time getting over that hump. Simply switching to Orc would get them there.
The differences in racial performance don't just disappear at lower skill levels.Edited by MLGProPlayer on August 19, 2019 12:34AM2 -
Ratzkifal✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »I think the problem with this thread, and with the issue about racial balances in general, is that there is a lot of people who are saying, "I don't do endgame content, thus all the racial are fine" (in effect).
And that's the problem. The racials are NOT balanced, and vehemently giving the opinion that you don't care about balance is not helpful, because all that does is help perpetuate the problems with the racial (and class) balances for future content.
In my opinion, having Stam and Magicka races in a game with an Elder Scrolls pedigree is just a baffling design in the first place. To then have those races unbalanced in their respective categories just brings bad design to a whole new level.
Those who care are chasing leaderboard numbers.
The significant majority except the 1% doesn't care less if their race is 2000 dps lower.
Many cannot do 5000 dps even at CP810.
Let's say someone is right on the edge of meeting a DPS parse requirement to join a raiding guild. I don't know what the requirements are on the new dummies. But on the old dummy, 45k single target was a pretty standard requirement in a lot of progression guilds. Let's say someone is at 43k with a Bosmer or Redguard and is having a hard time getting over that hump. Simply switching to Orc would get them there.
The differences in racial performance don't just disappear at lower skill levels.
The guild of some of my friends has 60k requirement on the raid dummy. I've started at 50k and struggled to reach 55k, which I am at now. 2% of that are already 1k damage difference and every bit helps. So your scenario is pretty accurate.
Luckily I am a tank, so I'm free of the burden of parsing, but I still want to prove to myself that I can do it if I want. If I wasn't a tank, then I'd be stuck in a limbo of low parses. I can't get perfected gear without a raiding guild, I can't get a raiding guild without high dps, I can't get high dps because I don't have perfected gear. Others might be trapped in that cycle even as we speak!
Edit: Just to point out, I am playing a "suboptimal" Race, so yes, a race change could probably improve my dps.Edited by Ratzkifal on August 19, 2019 1:15AMThis Bosmer was tortured to death. There is nothing left to be done.2 -
Deathlord92✭✭✭✭✭
✭I wish we could just pick our racial passives or morph them that will solve the problem here.1 -
MLGProPlayer✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭MLGProPlayer wrote: »p_tsakirisb16_ESO wrote: »I think the problem with this thread, and with the issue about racial balances in general, is that there is a lot of people who are saying, "I don't do endgame content, thus all the racial are fine" (in effect).
And that's the problem. The racials are NOT balanced, and vehemently giving the opinion that you don't care about balance is not helpful, because all that does is help perpetuate the problems with the racial (and class) balances for future content.
In my opinion, having Stam and Magicka races in a game with an Elder Scrolls pedigree is just a baffling design in the first place. To then have those races unbalanced in their respective categories just brings bad design to a whole new level.
Those who care are chasing leaderboard numbers.
The significant majority except the 1% doesn't care less if their race is 2000 dps lower.
Many cannot do 5000 dps even at CP810.
Let's say someone is right on the edge of meeting a DPS parse requirement to join a raiding guild. I don't know what the requirements are on the new dummies. But on the old dummy, 45k single target was a pretty standard requirement in a lot of progression guilds. Let's say someone is at 43k with a Bosmer or Redguard and is having a hard time getting over that hump. Simply switching to Orc would get them there.
The differences in racial performance don't just disappear at lower skill levels.
The guild of some of my friends has 60k requirement on the raid dummy. I've started at 50k and struggled to reach 55k, which I am at now. 2% of that are already 1k damage difference and every bit helps. So your scenario is pretty accurate.
Luckily I am a tank, so I'm free of the burden of parsing, but I still want to prove to myself that I can do it if I want. If I wasn't a tank, then I'd be stuck in a limbo of low parses. I can't get perfected gear without a raiding guild, I can't get a raiding guild without high dps, I can't get high dps because I don't have perfected gear. Others might be trapped in that cycle even as we speak!
Edit: Just to point out, I am playing a "suboptimal" Race, so yes, a race change could probably improve my dps.
I was talking about parses on the 3-6 million dummy (before the raid dummy came out with Elsweyr). Progression groups usually required 45k DPS for the newer trials. I haven't kept up with the requirements on the new dummy (your parse typically increases like 50-60% on the raid dummy).Edited by MLGProPlayer on August 19, 2019 3:56AM1
