Medium armor and the dot meta

wheem_ESO · August 2019

Epicasballs wrote: »

Yes. Entropy and soul trap cannot be dodged. If roll dodge is meant to be mediums defense how can we mitigate these new skills? If dots ignored bubbles light armor users would be having this same discussion. On top of reduced healing. Rally is a good burst but it lost its HoT and vigor has been nerfed.

You're overestimating shields. Here are some numbers from PTS that I posted in another thread:

As an example, on a premade Magicka Necromancer with no CP spent (to simulate BGs or no-CP Cyrodiil), wearing Necropotence, Bright-Throat's Boast, Skoria, 3x Arcane Jewelry, 1x tri-stat enchant + 6x max magicka enchants, and using tri-stat drink, I have a maximum magicka of 39,635 (including +2% max magicka from 1 Mage's Guild skill on the bar). What does Harness Magicka actually absorb under those circumstances? 6,141. Problem is, this build will absolutely not be viable as-is, since the physical resist is 15,913 buffed, with both Skoria pieces being heavy. You know how long a 6k shield lasts in no-CP with resists that low?

If we change the build up a bit, and assume that damage will be such that most magicka builds are forced to run a defensive 5 piece set, and that Necromancer's sustain is bad enough to demand a set like Lich (and the sustain *is* quite bad), that shield size absolutely tanks. On the same character as before, switching to Buffer of the Swift, Lich, Skoria (hey, gotta have at least one damage set if you're going to go for an offensive build, right?), 3x Protective Jewelry, 3x tri-stat enchants + 4x max magicka enchants, and tri-stat food, Harness Magicka comes in at 4,184 (with 22,458 physical resistance). So the resists are more reasonable, and you get defense from the Swift 5 piece of course, but who wants to use a shield that can't even reach 4.2k and costs 3,856 magicka? (and that's with Breton + light armor passives)

More than a few magicka builds already don't run shields on live, and with the nerfs they're getting on Monday, that number may grow quite a bit.

Epicasballs · August 2019

wheem_ESO wrote: »

Epicasballs wrote: »

Yes. Entropy and soul trap cannot be dodged. If roll dodge is meant to be mediums defense how can we mitigate these new skills? If dots ignored bubbles light armor users would be having this same discussion. On top of reduced healing. Rally is a good burst but it lost its HoT and vigor has been nerfed.

You're overestimating shields. Here are some numbers from PTS that I posted in another thread:
As an example, on a premade Magicka Necromancer with no CP spent (to simulate BGs or no-CP Cyrodiil), wearing Necropotence, Bright-Throat's Boast, Skoria, 3x Arcane Jewelry, 1x tri-stat enchant + 6x max magicka enchants, and using tri-stat drink, I have a maximum magicka of 39,635 (including +2% max magicka from 1 Mage's Guild skill on the bar). What does Harness Magicka actually absorb under those circumstances? 6,141. Problem is, this build will absolutely not be viable as-is, since the physical resist is 15,913 buffed, with both Skoria pieces being heavy. You know how long a 6k shield lasts in no-CP with resists that low?

If we change the build up a bit, and assume that damage will be such that most magicka builds are forced to run a defensive 5 piece set, and that Necromancer's sustain is bad enough to demand a set like Lich (and the sustain *is* quite bad), that shield size absolutely tanks. On the same character as before, switching to Buffer of the Swift, Lich, Skoria (hey, gotta have at least one damage set if you're going to go for an offensive build, right?), 3x Protective Jewelry, 3x tri-stat enchants + 4x max magicka enchants, and tri-stat food, Harness Magicka comes in at 4,184 (with 22,458 physical resistance). So the resists are more reasonable, and you get defense from the Swift 5 piece of course, but who wants to use a shield that can't even reach 4.2k and costs 3,856 magicka? (and that's with Breton + light armor passives)

More than a few magicka builds already don't run shields on live, and with the nerfs they're getting on Monday, that number may grow quite a bit.

But mag also has good class heals and the option of bubbles. On top of running resto back bar opening up more heals. Plus they can equip vma or brp resto providing even further utility to those heals. Rapid regen is basically free with vma staff and brp staff gives you major vit. Mag can also purge or wear sets that purge for them. The difference here is miles apart. Stop trolling.

Epicasballs · August 2019

@wheem_ESO if you're so upset about necro go make another post. This about how the changes effect medium armor and how viable it will be in pvp next patch.

Mayrael · August 2019

Oh look, magicka gets 2 literally 2 strong dots and suddenly it's the end of the world, but when bleeds were buffed into the sky it was perfectly balanced?

All we need is being able to dodge those dots initial hit, that's all.

BohnT2 · August 2019

Mayrael wrote: »

Oh look, magicka gets 2 literally 2 strong dots and suddenly it's the end of the world, but when bleeds were buffed into the sky it was perfectly balanced?

All we need is being able to dodge those dots initial hit, that's all.

You can't dodge soultrap.
Also the cost of dodging every single application of a dot is inherently more expensive than spamming the dots.

The current implementation of dots makes it impossible to play medium it equals fighting against old shieldbreaker without streak or any source of healing.

BohnT2 · August 2019

Medium armor will fail to be viable for multiple reasons.
One big part is their current passives compared to what heavy has to offer.
Constitution grants 250 mag and stamregen on top of the extra resource return on heavy attacks.

By wearing 5 heavy pieces you get 10% more health which is huge in a meta of dots as more health makes you less vulnerable to burst and gives you way more room for error.

A whole passive of medium armor doesn't offer anything in combat that's 20% of all passives which are useless.

As mentioned in other posts the percentage modifiers to regen is heavily flawed compared to flat regen as seen with the bosmer changes.

What hurts the overall useage of medium armor is that certain specs don't synergise with the playstyle medium armor supports especially staying in combat and wearing people down is hindered due to the lower survivability due to less healing and less resistances

katorga · August 2019

BohnT2 wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Oh look, magicka gets 2 literally 2 strong dots and suddenly it's the end of the world, but when bleeds were buffed into the sky it was perfectly balanced?

All we need is being able to dodge those dots initial hit, that's all.

You can't dodge soultrap.
Also the cost of dodging every single application of a dot is inherently more expensive than spamming the dots.

The current implementation of dots makes it impossible to play medium it equals fighting against old shieldbreaker without streak or any source of healing.

Dodge's value is not dodging each attack but dodging ALL simultaneous attacks. It scales with the number of people attacking you. Cloak is the same way, and will have greater effect the more dots that are on you. Block and shields scale the other direction. The more attacks the worse they become.

Light armor classes are going to melt just as fast as medium. Shields are too expensive to spam, you can't out heal the dots (but you can try harder than medium). Everybody will go heavy with a heavy emphasis on proc damage.

FrankonPC · August 2019

Light is in an infinitely better situation than medium next patch for a multitude of reasons:

1. They have access to wards that do not touch the health bar until they're gone. Even a second or two of breathing room to get hots up will be valuable
2. Every mag class that's not a magblade has access to a burst heal, while all of them have access to some heal over times
3. rapid regeneration and healing ward are strong heals this patch.

If you're running light and you have harness and healing ward, and it's not enough you can slot a class burst heal, or rapid regen. You could fit a hot, two wards and a burst heal on your bar with your major ward, because it's all available to you.

If you're in medium you have vigor(which is a worse heal than RR) and rally. That's all you have. No other options for burst heals, heal over times etc. Your main defense which is movement speed and maneuverability is negated by two undodgeable dot effects.

Everyone is going to feel the dots next patch, that's the point. Magicka has multiple options for heals, stam has two.

ecru · August 2019

Mayrael wrote: »

Oh look, magicka gets 2 literally 2 strong dots and suddenly it's the end of the world, but when bleeds were buffed into the sky it was perfectly balanced?

All we need is being able to dodge those dots initial hit, that's all.

three dots

Davadin · August 2019

BohnT2 wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Oh look, magicka gets 2 literally 2 strong dots and suddenly it's the end of the world, but when bleeds were buffed into the sky it was perfectly balanced?

All we need is being able to dodge those dots initial hit, that's all.

Also the cost of dodging every single application of a dot is inherently more expensive than spamming the dots.

this.

let this sink for a minute.

Tolino · August 2019

Mayrael wrote: »

Oh look, magicka gets 2 literally 2 strong dots and suddenly it's the end of the world, but when bleeds were buffed into the sky it was perfectly balanced?

All we need is being able to dodge those dots initial hit, that's all.

An noboody ha ever complain about bleeds?

With the new Magicka Dots you can make the same dot-pressure. But you don't need to go in melee range.

Mayrael · August 2019

Tolino wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Oh look, magicka gets 2 literally 2 strong dots and suddenly it's the end of the world, but when bleeds were buffed into the sky it was perfectly balanced?

All we need is being able to dodge those dots initial hit, that's all.

An noboody ha ever complain about bleeds?

With the new Magicka Dots you can make the same dot-pressure. But you don't need to go in melee range.

When my dots will crit for 3-3,5k each we will talk about "same pressure". Except of momentum nerf which is in general stamina nerf heavy including, medium per se didn't recieved any nerfs just buffs. I think that Rally but only Rally should receive its hot back.

Buffing Vigor which using has no drawbacks (cheap, no weapon required, 100% guaranteed to self heal not like RR, can be placed on offensive bar) wouldn't be fair as it would be the only skill required to survive.

killingspreeb16_ESO · August 2019

Mayrael wrote: »

Tolino wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Oh look, magicka gets 2 literally 2 strong dots and suddenly it's the end of the world, but when bleeds were buffed into the sky it was perfectly balanced?

All we need is being able to dodge those dots initial hit, that's all.

An noboody ha ever complain about bleeds?

With the new Magicka Dots you can make the same dot-pressure. But you don't need to go in melee range.

When my dots will crit for 3-3,5k each we will talk about "same pressure". Except of momentum nerf which is in general stamina nerf heavy including, medium per se didn't recieved any nerfs just buffs. I think that Rally but only Rally should receive its hot back.

Buffing Vigor which using has no drawbacks (cheap, no weapon required, 100% guaranteed to self heal not like RR, can be placed on offensive bar) wouldn't be fair as it would be the only skill required to survive.

Ye but is fair that magika get all the healing option?

Rapid regen was on the same level of vigor pre nerf now is just miles better,also not every build place vigor on the front bar.

Now vigor healing half of rapid and cost more than rapid.Pre nerf rapid had a slight lower base tooltip than vigor (1/2k difference)but still had two extra passive to increase it's healing and if you want the BR resto staff to get more healing.

It's not 100% guaranted on the caster true but let's not pretend that heal random people all the time like some people do.

On live healing ward is on me most of the time. Sometime it goes to another person and you die but at the same time you can protect/heal another player when needed,RR will be the same.

Now my stamblade is in melee range with aoe/dot's and all the direct dmg with just vigor to heal,meanwhile on my mageblade im not melee all the time and i also get more healing option for me and my team/group.

When stamina get all the healing/defense option in class skill as magika your argument about vigor would be fair until then...

BohnT2 · August 2019

katorga wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Oh look, magicka gets 2 literally 2 strong dots and suddenly it's the end of the world, but when bleeds were buffed into the sky it was perfectly balanced?

All we need is being able to dodge those dots initial hit, that's all.

You can't dodge soultrap.
Also the cost of dodging every single application of a dot is inherently more expensive than spamming the dots.

The current implementation of dots makes it impossible to play medium it equals fighting against old shieldbreaker without streak or any source of healing.

Dodge's value is not dodging each attack but dodging ALL simultaneous attacks. It scales with the number of people attacking you. Cloak is the same way, and will have greater effect the more dots that are on you. Block and shields scale the other direction. The more attacks the worse they become.

Light armor classes are going to melt just as fast as medium. Shields are too expensive to spam, you can't out heal the dots (but you can try harder than medium). Everybody will go heavy with a heavy emphasis on proc damage.

Cloak is better than dodge in any way but that's a discussion for a different post.

Did you actually go on the pts and dueled there to test your statement?
Because it is definitely doable to survive in light armor and it's what most people including me used there. I've tested magnecro, magnb, magdk and magplar.

Both magdk and magplar are top tier on the pts when it comes to dueling.

Healing on Magspecs is sufficient, my magdk can force a 16k cauterize crit if I'm not defiled while keeping up a constant hps of 5-6k which i could definitely increase if i were to use power lash instead of molten whip or if i'd use igneous shield but that's just for virtual numbers bragging because you really don't need it and that's good.

Magnb thrives in a dot meta with cloak and now on demand healing, unless i really mess up and the enemy is using detect pots survivability is really good.

Magnecro is the smaller brother of magplars with access to purge, a BoL like heal but with the useful addition of the ghost which heals for 10k+ on the healing focused morph (granted it has issues not healing at all time but it's fine as long as you don't use it as an emergency heal)

We don't even have to talk about magplar here the spec went straight into S-Tier this patch, duels vs stamspecs can be won by simply applying 3 dots and then waiting for ult and PL and gg.

Healing on all magicka specs is doubled compared to stamina, even a magsorc with RR and healing ward without brp resto will have better hps than stamdks.
In general the HPS on stamspecs went down while magicka has rapidly increased so far that HPS is twice as big on mag specs even if I'm standing inside the warrior guild rune which offers ~1.5-1.7k hps.
One huge issue here is the existence of BRP resto which grants access TP 100% uptime on major vitality if needed (thank God major mending got removed from Templars toolkit because having access to such a strong heal buff is op and shouldn't exist right

)

Epicasballs · August 2019

I've come to realize that all our complaints are probably for nothing. ZOS is doing a full audit on the game with a promise to do passives. Medium passives would fall under that umbrella. Maybe all our concerns will addressed in the next pts cycle. Perhaps that's why they're doing the things they're doing now. It's part of larger plan to address all these issues. We just have to be patient.

olsborg · August 2019

Epicasballs wrote: »

I've come to realize that all our complaints are probably for nothing. ZOS is doing a full audit on the game with a promise to do passives. Medium passives would fall under that umbrella. Maybe all our concerns will addressed in the next pts cycle. Perhaps that's why they're doing the things they're doing now. It's part of larger plan to address all these issues. We just have to be patient.

Thats what they done in the past, certainly. Break something and leave it broken for 3 months when they have planned the fix. Its a terrible thing...but it fits their MO.

universal_wrath · August 2019

Tolino wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Oh look, magicka gets 2 literally 2 strong dots and suddenly it's the end of the world, but when bleeds were buffed into the sky it was perfectly balanced?

All we need is being able to dodge those dots initial hit, that's all.

An noboody ha ever complain about bleeds?

With the new Magicka Dots you can make the same dot-pressure. But you don't need to go in melee range.

Will, they buffed bleeds because niw they go through resistance first. Before, they ignore resistance. If zos did not buff bleeds with next changes, bleeds will be doing almost half of what they are doing on live.

Kadoin · August 2019

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Tolino wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Oh look, magicka gets 2 literally 2 strong dots and suddenly it's the end of the world, but when bleeds were buffed into the sky it was perfectly balanced?

All we need is being able to dodge those dots initial hit, that's all.

An noboody ha ever complain about bleeds?

With the new Magicka Dots you can make the same dot-pressure. But you don't need to go in melee range.

When my dots will crit for 3-3,5k each we will talk about "same pressure". Except of momentum nerf which is in general stamina nerf heavy including, medium per se didn't recieved any nerfs just buffs. I think that Rally but only Rally should receive its hot back.

Buffing Vigor which using has no drawbacks (cheap, no weapon required, 100% guaranteed to self heal not like RR, can be placed on offensive bar) wouldn't be fair as it would be the only skill required to survive.

Ye but is fair that magika get all the healing option?

Rapid regen was on the same level of vigor pre nerf now is just miles better,also not every build place vigor on the front bar.

Now vigor healing half of rapid and cost more than rapid.Pre nerf rapid had a slight lower base tooltip than vigor (1/2k difference)but still had two extra passive to increase it's healing and if you want the BR resto staff to get more healing.

It's not 100% guaranted on the caster true but let's not pretend that heal random people all the time like some people do.

On live healing ward is on me most of the time. Sometime it goes to another person and you die but at the same time you can protect/heal another player when needed,RR will be the same.

Now my stamblade is in melee range with aoe/dot's and all the direct dmg with just vigor to heal,meanwhile on my mageblade im not melee all the time and i also get more healing option for me and my team/group.

When stamina get all the healing/defense option in class skill as magika your argument about vigor would be fair until then...

Blame all the classes with HP% heals ZOS won't seem to address. They are the reason stam healing has to be cut. Strangely enough, they might also be the reason that ZOS nerfed healing over all, yet they ignored those heals...

universal_wrath · August 2019

olsborg wrote: »

Epicasballs wrote: »

I've come to realize that all our complaints are probably for nothing. ZOS is doing a full audit on the game with a promise to do passives. Medium passives would fall under that umbrella. Maybe all our concerns will addressed in the next pts cycle. Perhaps that's why they're doing the things they're doing now. It's part of larger plan to address all these issues. We just have to be patient.

Thats what they done in the past, certainly. Break something and leave it broken for 3 months when they have planned the fix. Its a terrible thing...but it fits their MO.

Sometimes they forget they broke something and move on, like stam sorc now and how useless it will be next patch.

Nerftheforums · August 2019

Kadoin wrote: »

killingspreeb16_ESO wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Tolino wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Oh look, magicka gets 2 literally 2 strong dots and suddenly it's the end of the world, but when bleeds were buffed into the sky it was perfectly balanced?

All we need is being able to dodge those dots initial hit, that's all.

An noboody ha ever complain about bleeds?

With the new Magicka Dots you can make the same dot-pressure. But you don't need to go in melee range.

When my dots will crit for 3-3,5k each we will talk about "same pressure". Except of momentum nerf which is in general stamina nerf heavy including, medium per se didn't recieved any nerfs just buffs. I think that Rally but only Rally should receive its hot back.

Buffing Vigor which using has no drawbacks (cheap, no weapon required, 100% guaranteed to self heal not like RR, can be placed on offensive bar) wouldn't be fair as it would be the only skill required to survive.

Ye but is fair that magika get all the healing option?

Rapid regen was on the same level of vigor pre nerf now is just miles better,also not every build place vigor on the front bar.

Now vigor healing half of rapid and cost more than rapid.Pre nerf rapid had a slight lower base tooltip than vigor (1/2k difference)but still had two extra passive to increase it's healing and if you want the BR resto staff to get more healing.

It's not 100% guaranted on the caster true but let's not pretend that heal random people all the time like some people do.

On live healing ward is on me most of the time. Sometime it goes to another person and you die but at the same time you can protect/heal another player when needed,RR will be the same.

Now my stamblade is in melee range with aoe/dot's and all the direct dmg with just vigor to heal,meanwhile on my mageblade im not melee all the time and i also get more healing option for me and my team/group.

When stamina get all the healing/defense option in class skill as magika your argument about vigor would be fair until then...

Blame all the classes with HP% heals ZOS won't seem to address. They are the reason stam healing has to be cut. Strangely enough, they might also be the reason that ZOS nerfed healing over all, yet they ignored those heals...

Ikr? Gdb carries so much stamdks, and the warden hp base heal? Omg op on stamden. It's so strong that everybody is using it

akray21 · August 2019

Epicasballs wrote: »

I've come to realize that all our complaints are probably for nothing. ZOS is doing a full audit on the game with a promise to do passives. Medium passives would fall under that umbrella. Maybe all our concerns will addressed in the next pts cycle. Perhaps that's why they're doing the things they're doing now. It's part of larger plan to address all these issues. We just have to be patient.

Why should stam suffer for 3 months while they work towards their "vision"? They need take more time to get EVERYTHING aligned instead of putting together some pieces while leaving others out. I will have to take next patch off with a child on the way, so my stam toons are left out to dry for 6+ months.

katorga · August 2019

BohnT2 wrote: »

katorga wrote: »

BohnT2 wrote: »

Mayrael wrote: »

Oh look, magicka gets 2 literally 2 strong dots and suddenly it's the end of the world, but when bleeds were buffed into the sky it was perfectly balanced?

All we need is being able to dodge those dots initial hit, that's all.

You can't dodge soultrap.
Also the cost of dodging every single application of a dot is inherently more expensive than spamming the dots.

The current implementation of dots makes it impossible to play medium it equals fighting against old shieldbreaker without streak or any source of healing.

Dodge's value is not dodging each attack but dodging ALL simultaneous attacks. It scales with the number of people attacking you. Cloak is the same way, and will have greater effect the more dots that are on you. Block and shields scale the other direction. The more attacks the worse they become.

Light armor classes are going to melt just as fast as medium. Shields are too expensive to spam, you can't out heal the dots (but you can try harder than medium). Everybody will go heavy with a heavy emphasis on proc damage.

Cloak is better than dodge in any way but that's a discussion for a different post.

Did you actually go on the pts and dueled there to test your statement?
Because it is definitely doable to survive in light armor and it's what most people including me used there. I've tested magnecro, magnb, magdk and magplar.

Both magdk and magplar are top tier on the pts when it comes to dueling.

Healing on Magspecs is sufficient, my magdk can force a 16k cauterize crit if I'm not defiled while keeping up a constant hps of 5-6k which i could definitely increase if i were to use power lash instead of molten whip or if i'd use igneous shield but that's just for virtual numbers bragging because you really don't need it and that's good.

Magnb thrives in a dot meta with cloak and now on demand healing, unless i really mess up and the enemy is using detect pots survivability is really good.

Magnecro is the smaller brother of magplars with access to purge, a BoL like heal but with the useful addition of the ghost which heals for 10k+ on the healing focused morph (granted it has issues not healing at all time but it's fine as long as you don't use it as an emergency heal)

We don't even have to talk about magplar here the spec went straight into S-Tier this patch, duels vs stamspecs can be won by simply applying 3 dots and then waiting for ult and PL and gg.

Healing on all magicka specs is doubled compared to stamina, even a magsorc with RR and healing ward without brp resto will have better hps than stamdks.
In general the HPS on stamspecs went down while magicka has rapidly increased so far that HPS is twice as big on mag specs even if I'm standing inside the warrior guild rune which offers ~1.5-1.7k hps.
One huge issue here is the existence of BRP resto which grants access TP 100% uptime on major vitality if needed (thank God major mending got removed from Templars toolkit because having access to such a strong heal buff is op and shouldn't exist right )

Fair enough, I agree with the basic argument in favor of MagDK and Templar. Outside of duels, which I rarely do, I don't think their healing or sustain will hold up in openworld and maybe BGs with the number of DOT that will be placed on them. We'll see how it all shakes out on live.

I tend to pick resource neutral races, so I can swap from mag to stam and back at respec shrines with no major hassle. Whichever works out best is what I will use for my Necro, DK, and Sorc. I'm definitely concerned about the lack of mobility on my Nec and DK. I have nightmares being constantly hit with 10+ dots by ball groups.

Ragnarock41 · August 2019

FrankonPC wrote: »

Light is in an infinitely better situation than medium next patch for a multitude of reasons:

1. They have access to wards that do not touch the health bar until they're gone. Even a second or two of breathing room to get hots up will be valuable
2. Every mag class that's not a magblade has access to a burst heal, while all of them have access to some heal over times
3. rapid regeneration and healing ward are strong heals this patch.

If you're running light and you have harness and healing ward, and it's not enough you can slot a class burst heal, or rapid regen. You could fit a hot, two wards and a burst heal on your bar with your major ward, because it's all available to you.

If you're in medium you have vigor(which is a worse heal than RR) and rally. That's all you have. No other options for burst heals, heal over times etc. Your main defense which is movement speed and maneuverability is negated by two undodgeable dot effects.

Everyone is going to feel the dots next patch, that's the point. Magicka has multiple options for heals, stam has two.

Spamming shields do not have any stacking cost however dodge rolling gets progressively more expensive and if your enemy catches you in a position where you're below %50 hp aka in execution range, you're practically screwed , you will find yourself in a downward spiral where you keep dodge rolling so your vigor might bring you back but by the time you dodge rolled 3 or 4 times you have already wasted majority of your stamina bar and unless you play an OP stamblade you have no ways of reliably resetting that dodge roll counter.

As a stamDK I was able to let my dodge roll reset via using wings after I created a gap, however with the nerf to wings, once again its very clear that medium armor just does not work unless your class kit has an OP defense tool.