Look Guys, Don’t Go Exploiting Bugs. Be Smart. Don’t Risk Your Account.

worrallj · August 2019

thatlaurachick wrote: »

worrallj wrote: »

Well we just totally disagree then... Farming the mobs that give the most xp has been a staple behavior of every MMO that's ever been created. I would be outraged if I got banned for killing the mobs that gave the most xp just because some developer put a zero in the wrong spot and then suddenly it's my job to avoid that particular mob.

However, you (@worralij) agreed to the Terms of Service for THIS game thus it *IS* your job to report the bug, and not share the exploit with others, and not farm ONLY that mob to maximize your XP gain. If you kill them while farming the rest of IC, eh, whatever. But we're talking about those who DO NOT TELL ZOS so they can fix it, then *share* the exploit with others, and then specifically use this exploit for gain ( e.g.farm only this mob for fast XP gain) then cry when they get found out and banned.

Yeah I get that, sorry if it wasn't clear but my point is that those terms are bad and should be changed. I get it's currently part of the contract.

zaria · August 2019

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

worrallj wrote: »

Either way, my point is it's unfair to ban players for figuring out the most effective way to play the game. I never even heard of this bunny jumping thing before, but it seems rediculous that they'd ban someone for doing a sprint & jump with good timing.

What if two armor bonuses interact with each other in an odd way that is very OP that seems maybe like an accident? Is it then a bannable offense to equip those two sets at the same time? I don't think it's fair to put this kind of stuff on players.

It´s really not unfair, for example when IC Mobs were bugged to give like 1mil xp each, some People figured the most effective way to farm cp would be to just exploit those very obviously not intended xp gains, if they knowingly do so they deserve any ban they get.
If People figure the most effective way to get the asylum Skin is to just snipe exploit it, they deserve any ban they get.

There are different dimensions of exploits true, but if you knowingly exploit anything for your own gain then any punishment you get for that is fair game.

As I understand people was not banned they lost the xp gain.
People got an temporary ban for flipping resources in Cyrodil. This involved one group taking an resource, moving out another faction took it and redraw, repeat.
This is obviously not how PvP is supposed to be played

Arranged fights like practicing for BG or some guild event is legal as its not for farming AP.

And how are you suposed to know its an exploit, yes if you get one cp level for each mob killed you should know something is wrong, if motif or blueprint drop rate is a bit high like 1 in 10 how can you know.

Bouldercleave · August 2019

worrallj wrote: »

this part of the user agreement really ticks me off. I'm actually thinking about starting a petition to get it changed.

LOL - cause that'll work...

Sanguinor2 · August 2019

zaria wrote: »

As I understand people was not banned they lost the xp gain.
People got an temporary ban for flipping resources in Cyrodil. This involved one group taking an resource, moving out another faction took it and redraw, repeat.
This is obviously not how PvP is supposed to be played

Arranged fights like practicing for BG or some guild event is legal as its not for farming AP.

And how are you suposed to know its an exploit, yes if you get one cp level for each mob killed you should know something is wrong, if motif or blueprint drop rate is a bit high like 1 in 10 how can you know.

You cant Always know for sure, but the biggest exploits/ the ones that Benefit you the most will Always be glaringly obvious like the IC one and many other Bugs will be very obvious too.
Using your example with motif droprate you cant Always know for sure if something is wrong or not but if for example you have a 1 in 10 droprate on imperial motifs or buoyant armiger ones then something certainly is wrong and for many Bugs you can tell the same.

Zer0_CooL · August 2019

Bouldercleave wrote: »

worrallj wrote: »

this part of the user agreement really ticks me off. I'm actually thinking about starting a petition to get it changed.

LOL - cause that'll work...

If it will actually work out, we got to start a petition for group tool next.

Huyen · August 2019

WuffyCerulei wrote: »

worrallj wrote: »

Fair enough PS announcement, but this part of the user agreement really ticks me off. I'm actually thinking about starting a petition to get it changed.

It should not be players' responsibility to restrict their gameplay to compensate for mistakes on zenimax's side. We play the game they made to the best of our ability. We don't play the game we think they probably meant to make.

If this jumping quirk is an exploit, wouldn't animation canceling be too? You can look at it as a bug, or you can look at it as a skill that you have to learn if you want to increase your performance. If zenimax thinks it shouldn't be in the game, they can remove it.

I believe they’re trying to work on the bug, but it’s certainly not intended. Animation canceling, for the last time, is not a bug nor an exploit. Zos even put a tip in-game that says activating a light attack before a skill (a form of animation canceling) will do more damage. Thus intended.

Wrong. Animation cancelling wasnt intended by ZoS but they adopted it (read: couldnt be bothered to change it), and the tooltip isnt here very long yet. It was at first a honest bug.

worrallj · August 2019

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

worrallj wrote: »

Well we just totally disagree then... Farming the mobs that give the most xp has been a staple behavior of every MMO that's ever been created. I would be outraged if I got banned for killing the mobs that gave the most xp just because some developer put a zero in the wrong spot and then suddenly it's my job to avoid that particular mob.

We Arent Talking About regular Mobs with slighty higher xp gain here… they were bugged and gave over 100 times the experience they were supposed to give, how is farming them when knowing it is bugged not Exploitation of a bug? And why would punishment be unjustified if you exploit such a bug?
If a dev accidentaly put one 0 too many on the akaviri dragonguard 5 piece for example making ults free to cast, would you not punish People that exploited that? Because thats basically cheating, just like the IC XP bug was basically an XP cheat.
And yeah TOS makes it your Job to avoid exploiting Bugs you know, you dont have to agree with it but you cant be surprised if you get punished for knowingly Breaking them.

I would not punish people for using that. I know the TOS and I follow them cuz I don't want to get banned, but I want to see them changed. Banning people who don't pick up on the problem and deliberately gimp themselves to make up for it is terrible customer service. It's a lazy and punitive way to allow poorly tested software to exist in production.

I have worked on software teams where, when a bug is discovered, the project manager's first response has all to often been to tell the client that it's their fault for using the software in a way other than the developers intended. The client quickly gets fed up and the project founders due to this attempt to pass the buck and avoid accountability & quality control. It's just not the way good software developers behave. Zenimax is not that bad, but I've always felt this particular part of the TOS is no good.

Edit: Also to answer your first question, yes. It is exploitation of a bug. That's not great, but I really do believe that it shouldn't be on players to make it seem like the game is bug free when it's not. If there's a bug and players use it to their advantage, I'd put the blame on the software and not the players.

zaria · August 2019

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

As I understand people was not banned they lost the xp gain.
People got an temporary ban for flipping resources in Cyrodil. This involved one group taking an resource, moving out another faction took it and redraw, repeat.
This is obviously not how PvP is supposed to be played

Arranged fights like practicing for BG or some guild event is legal as its not for farming AP.

And how are you suposed to know its an exploit, yes if you get one cp level for each mob killed you should know something is wrong, if motif or blueprint drop rate is a bit high like 1 in 10 how can you know.

You cant Always know for sure, but the biggest exploits/ the ones that Benefit you the most will Always be glaringly obvious like the IC one and many other Bugs will be very obvious too.
Using your example with motif droprate you cant Always know for sure if something is wrong or not but if for example you have a 1 in 10 droprate on imperial motifs or buoyant armiger ones then something certainly is wrong and for many Bugs you can tell the same.

True, however they patched an Elsweyr motif drop rate for motifs it was less than 1/2. Same with the fabricants in CWC.
Even weirder was the Khajiit skooma pipe who dropped from servants in an TG quest instance.
This was in money making guides. Same with motifs in the coldharbor chests during the game start, the default racial motifs sold for some thousands the first months.

Sold green motifs for 8K the first day Morrowind launched.
Best sale ever was an purple Elsweyr motif dropped from the prologue quest who started dropping during the anniversary event. 2.8 million, that item was most of my income during event.

idk · August 2019

thatlaurachick wrote: »

BNOC wrote: »

It's too hard to consistently replicate on console and honestly, most of the time you do it it happens by accident. Is it more consistent on PC, or can you macro it into jump?

You can macro anything on PC, thus why macros are banned as well.

And for the animation cancelling discussion - it *was* a bug and NOW it's not. I don't like it either but the "combat" team decided that making macros for combat more appealing was a good idea.

BTW - yes, many people do make macros of their rotation, in PVE. They're not punished, but it's still against TOS.

AC was never a bug. It was an unintended consequence of being able to block or dodge roll when needed as the game requires such an active defensive response. There is a big difference between a bug and unintended consequence though I am sure we can split hairs in that since the salt is very apparent in your post. Zos realized it lead to a good fluid combat design and did not want to hinder the requirement to avoid damage so they decided to keep it.

Also, solid players don't use macros in PvE. They run with groups where someone is streaming or at least recording and if they mess up and get caught mid macro it is very obvious.

CaffeinatedMayhem · August 2019

idk wrote: »

Also, solid players don't use macros in PvE. They run with groups where someone is streaming or at least recording and if they mess up and get caught mid macro it is very obvious.

lol. this assumes the group boots the cheater. Let me tell you what happens when someone is caught with a macro and you point it out in support review:

"Well, yes, but they have <insane amount of DPS> and are the only reason we're finishing so meh."

*eyeroll*

And ZOS jiust gives canned responses "looking into it." Results? Nothing I ever heard of or saw.

In b4 "just change groups" - not as easy as you think! Maybe take a guess one of the reasons I don't run competitive content anymore? The other is plain old toxicity from the "elites."

MentalxHammer · August 2019

BNOC wrote: »

It's too hard to consistently replicate on console and honestly, most of the time you do it it happens by accident.

Wrong, I can do it on console using an xbox controller with about 90% success. Although I am the only one I have ever seen using it on console so...

morrowjen · August 2019

I'm not ZOS but I'm of the mindset that if a player's actions have no bearing on other players via disrupting the economy (e.g. exploiting to gain too much gold, mats, valuables etc.), pvp, etc. then it really shouldn't matter what that player does with a bug. A lot of things some would call exploits are just what I would call smart play.

goldenarcher1 · August 2019

Hmm...

Orjix · August 2019

it's pretty much worth risking on pure principle alone, ZOS made the game, and it should be on them and only them to remove "exploits" if you can do something within the game without the help of outside sources (cheat engine ect.) then there should be no reason to ban, ZOS made the game and it should end there. It should not matter what the stupid TOS says, it is the players job to try to maximize efficiency within the game, and if they find a unique way to "abuse" the mechanics put in by the developer they should never have to face the risk for a ban. I, myself, have never exploited anything to my knowledge (im to dumb to find them), but the idea for getting banned for doing something in game that was accomplished by doing something in game, is just ridiculous.

Thogard · August 2019

morrowjen wrote: »

I'm not ZOS but I'm of the mindset that if a player's actions have no bearing on other players via disrupting the economy (e.g. exploiting to gain too much gold, mats, valuables etc.), pvp, etc. then it really shouldn't matter what that player does with a bug. A lot of things some would call exploits are just what I would call smart play.

It’s a big help in PvP though.

Ackwalan · August 2019

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shaielzafine · August 2019

The bunny hopping exploit has been around for at least a year. I reported this to zos a long long time ago along with the entire guilds of people on (what used to be called) Vivec who were using other exploits like walking through 100% wall keeps that don't render or the good old gap closing into wall keeps to cap from inside. I'm not the only one that's reported and this sort of stuff has been in these forums a lot If ZOS won't patch reported "bugs" then they're not bugs they're features. Just like animation canceling is a feature, and server lag + long loading screens are features. Group finder feature still includes spamming to get in, I remember when they said they would fix this back in 2017. Now they say there's fixes to some of these features by next year, lol. Some things like animation canceling will always be around and it will always be buggy.

usmguy1234 · August 2019

I think the bigger question is when/why did big gaming companies swap from actually testing their own game to instead using their playerbase as guinea pigs to conveniently lop their heads off when they don't give the desired result? Which also begs to question, why is this an acceptable behavior?

The best part is we pay them to do this...

SpankinDamob · August 2019

Just so I’m clear on this if I hop around like a rabbit I’ll get banned? But you can go to any starter island, anytime of of the day, and see about 40 bots running preprogrammed routes farming materials.

worrallj · August 2019

SpankinDamob wrote: »

Just so I’m clear on this if I hop around like a rabbit I’ll get banned? But you can go to any starter island, anytime of of the day, and see about 40 bots running preprogrammed routes farming materials.

Botting for sure will get a ban sooner or later I would think, but those accounts grow like weeds.

f047ys3v3n · August 2019

OP, Not sure if this is a serious post or if your being facetious.

You know people running flat out cheats run this game. You have to know that, you have linked enough high end PVE to understand that the runs that they post on youtube every day could not actually be done legitimately. They also dominate pvp being more tanky than any tank, more sustaining than any healer, and with more dps than any dps. I can't imagine ZOS doesn't know it. They can't possibly be that ignorant.

Is this like a warning to peasants not to do little things like hunt in the kings sewers when mob kills grant 1 million XP or you will get banned? Or, perhaps not to sneak off the land you have been bound to and open chests you shouldn't be able to get to? That is true, people did get temporary bans for those little things. ESO is just like real life. Cheating is for the 1% to prosper more and the rest of you peasants, if you spend that bank error in your favor, your going to the hoosegow.

Hazurko_RaShan · August 2019

Sanguinor2 wrote: »

worrallj wrote: »

Well we just totally disagree then... Farming the mobs that give the most xp has been a staple behavior of every MMO that's ever been created. I would be outraged if I got banned for killing the mobs that gave the most xp just because some developer put a zero in the wrong spot and then suddenly it's my job to avoid that particular mob.

We Arent Talking About regular Mobs with slighty higher xp gain here… they were bugged and gave over 100 times the experience they were supposed to give, how is farming them when knowing it is bugged not Exploitation of a bug? And why would punishment be unjustified if you exploit such a bug?
If a dev accidentaly put one 0 too many on the akaviri dragonguard 5 piece for example making ults free to cast, would you not punish People that exploited that? Because thats basically cheating, just like the IC XP bug was basically an XP cheat.
And yeah TOS makes it your Job to avoid exploiting Bugs you know, you dont have to agree with it but you cant be surprised if you get punished for knowingly Breaking them.

ZOS gets paid. that's why. WE pay. If their game isnt playable as intended it is he responsibility of ZOS to write reliable code.

Mathius_Mordred · August 2019

That's complete BS. If Zenimax allow two abilities to be tied together then it's not an exploit it's a game mechanic, if Zenimax don't like it they can remove it, but using the skills and abilities provided to us is in no way an exploit and if they think they've made a mistake it's up to them to rectify it, not to punish the user for you know, using the tools they have been given. Any company who slaps down hard on this kind of non-exploit will rapidly find themselves losing support and customers and the blame with be entirely their own.