The Gold Road Chapter – which includes the Scribing system – and Update 42 is now available to test on the PTS! You can read the latest patch notes here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/656454/
Why nerf Dro’Zakar’s Claws?
Bandugar
✭
Dro’Zakar’s Claws: Reduced the Weapon Damage bonus per bleed effect to 133 from 200.
Is this needed at all? It was not overperforming, it just gives you possibility to build off-meta build without huge dps loss.
And especially after you post orginial stats in article on web site (https://elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/56655)
Is this needed at all? It was not overperforming, it just gives you possibility to build off-meta build without huge dps loss.
And especially after you post orginial stats in article on web site (https://elderscrollsonline.com/en-us/news/post/56655)
5
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Wuuffyy✭✭✭✭✭
✭Lol overnerfed 150 would have been more than enough.Wuuffyy,
ESO player since 2014
-PM for questions2 -
TheUndeadAmulet✭✭✭✭✭People, literally only at the start of PTS: "Hmmm 200 weapon damage per bleed? Seems strong, but definitely not BiS."
ZOS: "Did I hear strong? Oh boy! Here I go nerfing again!"XBOX NA 1000+ CP
nerf ping please21 -
ecru✭✭✭✭✭
✭yeah no one is going to use this now. you can't even maintain more than a few bleeds with 100% uptime unless you use sets that apply bleeds of their own or make abilities apply bleeds they otherwise wouldn't. aside from that, you were entirely reliant on axe bleed procs for more than two at once.Gryphon Heart
Godslayer
Dawnbringer4 -
Bandugar✭You can have like 6 bleeds (dw axe, 2h axe, rending slashes, carve, *** dw ult and Pillars of Nirn set), but you can't have decent uptime more than 3 bleeds. And you suffer from need of having not best set and 2h backbar to make it work.
So idk why we need that set at all with bonuses smaller than hunding or any other decent medium set.2 -
CynicK✭✭✭Nerfed and it didn't even saw live, one set that was looking interesting for close combat characters, it is true that you can get more bleeds if you use DW and 2 hander at the same time but well I at least would not use both i think normal bonus would had been 400 what was acceptable and if you use a set for more bleeds you are loosing 400 or 500 weapon damage from another set. It is true it could had been a little bit op using dw and 2-hander this way few people will use it, problem solved.0
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Bandugar✭Its not op, you still get better results with releq and lokk/adv.yokeda. it was just fun to build something different with this set and pillars of nirn. Now its just pathetic, why run new dungeon, if you dont have reward at all?3
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LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Its not op, you still get better results with releq and lokk/adv.yokeda. it was just fun to build something different with this set and pillars of nirn. Now its just pathetic, why run new dungeon, if you dont have reward at all?
Because it's not meant to compete with Rele/Lokke/Advancing Yokeda.
It's a PvP set. It has a stam regen bonus.
Getting a +800-1000 Weapon Damage bonus would probably make for overwhelming burst in PvP, where 2H/DW setups are more common.2 -
Bandugar✭But with bleed change it will not be that strong in pvp and it requires a lot to get that much weapon damage, in pvp it will be more like carve, rending slashes and sometimes procs from weapon passives, so most of time it will be like 400-600 conditional wpd, not so op 😀1
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olsborg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭On average you would sit on like 4-600 wep dmg vs your targets if you keep applying bleeds, but spell strategist is a firm 100% uptime of 500 spelldmg that only requires a simple light attack. Why was Dro’Zakar nerfed? as I see it now its not even comparable to the spell strategist set wich is the closest equivalent set to this imo.
PC EU
PvP only1 -
robpr✭✭✭✭✭
✭You can have like 6 bleeds (dw axe, 2h axe, rending slashes, carve, *** dw ult and Pillars of Nirn set), but you can't have decent uptime more than 3 bleeds. And you suffer from need of having not best set and 2h backbar to make it work.
So idk why we need that set at all with bonuses smaller than hunding or any other decent medium set.
DW ult is not considered a bleed, but only a dot that does physical damage. vMA 2h extra damage or 2h new Stampede is not bleed either.
So real amount of max bleed is 5 - DW axe, 2h Axe, rending, carve, Pillar of Nirn/Savage Werewolf/Twin Sisters.0 -
Bandugar✭DW ult is not considered a bleed, but only a dot that does physical damage. vMA 2h extra damage or 2h new Stampede is not bleed either.
So real amount of max bleed is 5 - DW axe, 2h Axe, rending, carve, Pillar of Nirn/Savage Werewolf/Twin Sisters.
You should log in at PTS and read DW ult, it is apply bleed now.0 -
ecru✭✭✭✭✭
✭LiquidPony wrote: »Its not op, you still get better results with releq and lokk/adv.yokeda. it was just fun to build something different with this set and pillars of nirn. Now its just pathetic, why run new dungeon, if you dont have reward at all?
Because it's not meant to compete with Rele/Lokke/Advancing Yokeda.
It's a PvP set. It has a stam regen bonus.
Getting a +800-1000 Weapon Damage bonus would probably make for overwhelming burst in PvP, where 2H/DW setups are more common.
it's a lot of weapon damage yeah, but it's extremely situational. in comparison, the damage bonus that bleeds and dots get from deadly strike (which includes spammables that are considered dots like flurry) is equal to around 1100-1200 weapon damage. on top of that, deadly strike has weapon damage and crit. with dro'zakar you would just barely be able to reach the dot damage that deadly strike provides, with the added bonus of getting other things like 2h attacks buffed, but again you lose out on the weapon damage deadly strike provides, meaning lower self heals from vigor. i use deadly strike in pvp right now on my stamdk and dro`zakar seemed like it would accomplish mostly the same thing, albeit not as consistently due to it's dependence on multiple dots.
so yeah i'm assuming this was a pve nerf because it just wasn't that great in pvp.
as you can imagine i already have pretty good dps with the 14%/+1200 weapon damage from deadly strike on my stamdk that effects flurry, rending slashes, carve, two axe bleeds, venomous claw, and noxious breath. dro'zakar wasn't gonna change much.Edited by ecru on July 30, 2019 11:31PMGryphon Heart
Godslayer
Dawnbringer0 -
MashmalloMan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭For anyone who thought like myself:
"Hm that seems like a huge Nerf, maybe they changed how ALL single target applied physical dots are calculated and redid them in to Bleed damage, that would make sense. They did it for the DW ult."
NOPE. I logged on to the PTS and checked Dawnbreaker, Trap Beast, VMA 2H, and BRP Bow, all are still considered as their live counterparts. Stampede, Volley and Caltrops all make sense as physical dots since they don't apply any dot to the target. BRP use to be Physical, but was changed so I understand it may not go back.
Must be rather confusing for new players to distinguish what or why a physical dot is a bleed or isn't a bleed.. If they updated those abilities, 133 damage per bleed would start to make much more sense.Edited by MashmalloMan on July 30, 2019 11:53PMPC Beta - 1900+ CP
Stam Sorc Khajiit PvE/PVP Main || Stam Sorc Dark Elf PvP ||
Stam Templar Dark Elf || Stam Warden Wood Elf || Stam DK Nord || Stam Necro Orc || Stam Blade Khajiit
Mag Sorc High Elf || Mag Templar High Elf || Mag Warden Breton || Mag Necro Khajiit || Mag Blade Khajiit0 -
Bandugar✭Marshall1289 wrote: »For anyone who thought like myself:
"Hm that seems like a huge Nerf, maybe they changed how ALL single target applied physical dots are calculated and redid them in to Bleed damage, that would make sense. They did it for the DW ult."
NOPE. I logged on to the PTS and checked Dawnbreaker, Trap Beast, VMA 2H, and BRP Bow, all are still considered as their live counterparts. Stampede, Volley and Caltrops all make sense as physical dots since they don't apply any dot to the target. BRP use to be Physical, but was changed so I understand it may not go back.
Must be rather confusing for new players to distinguish what or why a physical dot is a bleed or isn't a bleed.. If they updated those abilities, 133 damage per bleed would start to make much more sense.
Yeah, if they replace simple phisical dot to bleed it will make more sense, and there are no difference now between phisical dot and bleed anyway.2 -
EpicRekkoning✭✭✭Please correct me if I'm wrong, but bleed damage does NOT apply to all physical dots and unless I'm missing something, there's only 3 sources of bleed damage from skills; carve, rend, and axe passive. Berserking werewolf does bleed damage with claws, but there are no werewolf skills with bleed damage so you'll only add one bleed to a target. Sets like Nirn offer bleed damage too.
Considering all of this, the max number of bleeds you can have on one target is 4 - rend, carve, axe, and nirn. If all 4 were procced at the same time, the original set would only add 800 weapon damage. Since you can only control 2 of those bleeds, chances are you will only have 3 of the 4 active most of the time.
I agree with the OP that the nerf is unnecessary and this set will probably only be on par with hundings rage at best.0 -
Bandugar✭EpicRekkoning wrote: »Please correct me if I'm wrong, but bleed damage does NOT apply to all physical dots and unless I'm missing something, there's only 3 sources of bleed damage from skills; carve, rend, and axe passive. Berserking werewolf does bleed damage with claws, but there are no werewolf skills with bleed damage so you'll only add one bleed to a target. Sets like Nirn offer bleed damage too.
Considering all of this, the max number of bleeds you can have on one target is 4 - rend, carve, axe, and nirn. If all 4 were procced at the same time, the original set would only add 800 weapon damage. Since you can only control 2 of those bleeds, chances are you will only have 3 of the 4 active most of the time.
I agree with the OP that the nerf is unnecessary and this set will probably only be on par with hundings rage at best.
As I mention in previous posts there are 6 total bleed sources: carve, rending slashes, dw axe passive, 2h axe passive, dw ultimate and Pillars of Nirn (other two sets is complete crap imho). But dw ult is meh, so max you can get is 1000 wpd. but more realistically 3-4 as you say. But now you can get max 665 wpd and in real life 399-532, and thats not that good since you need to run very special setup to get it.0 -
Kolzki✭✭✭✭✭What the differences between bleeds and physical now? Is it just the buffs from this set and the blood drinker set? Is there anything else?0 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »Its not op, you still get better results with releq and lokk/adv.yokeda. it was just fun to build something different with this set and pillars of nirn. Now its just pathetic, why run new dungeon, if you dont have reward at all?
Because it's not meant to compete with Rele/Lokke/Advancing Yokeda.
It's a PvP set. It has a stam regen bonus.
Getting a +800-1000 Weapon Damage bonus would probably make for overwhelming burst in PvP, where 2H/DW setups are more common.
it's a lot of weapon damage yeah, but it's extremely situational. in comparison, the damage bonus that bleeds and dots get from deadly strike (which includes spammables that are considered dots like flurry) is equal to around 1100-1200 weapon damage. on top of that, deadly strike has weapon damage and crit. with dro'zakar you would just barely be able to reach the dot damage that deadly strike provides, with the added bonus of getting other things like 2h attacks buffed, but again you lose out on the weapon damage deadly strike provides, meaning lower self heals from vigor. i use deadly strike in pvp right now on my stamdk and dro`zakar seemed like it would accomplish mostly the same thing, albeit not as consistently due to it's dependence on multiple dots.
so yeah i'm assuming this was a pve nerf because it just wasn't that great in pvp.
as you can imagine i already have pretty good dps with the 14%/+1200 weapon damage from deadly strike on my stamdk that effects flurry, rending slashes, carve, two axe bleeds, venomous claw, and noxious breath. dro'zakar wasn't gonna change much.
The comparison doesn't make any sense.
Deadly Strike is "equal to around 1100-1200 weapon damage" (assuming this is correct for the sake of argument) only for your DoTs.
With Dro'Zakar's Claws, you can stack up the +800-1000 Weapon Damage and then hit with burst. Keep your bleeds stacked and your DoTs up, and when your WD stacks are where you want them, you hit with a massive burst. This is not possible with Deadly Strike. The use case is not the same.
The idea that this set would be nerfed for PvE makes little to no sense because it was already inferior to Deadly Strike and Lokkestiiz in PvE applications and it requires a suboptimal build (2H/DW) to even be remotely viable in the first place.2 -
EpicRekkoning✭✭✭EpicRekkoning wrote: »Please correct me if I'm wrong, but bleed damage does NOT apply to all physical dots and unless I'm missing something, there's only 3 sources of bleed damage from skills; carve, rend, and axe passive. Berserking werewolf does bleed damage with claws, but there are no werewolf skills with bleed damage so you'll only add one bleed to a target. Sets like Nirn offer bleed damage too.
Considering all of this, the max number of bleeds you can have on one target is 4 - rend, carve, axe, and nirn. If all 4 were procced at the same time, the original set would only add 800 weapon damage. Since you can only control 2 of those bleeds, chances are you will only have 3 of the 4 active most of the time.
I agree with the OP that the nerf is unnecessary and this set will probably only be on par with hundings rage at best.
As I mention in previous posts there are 6 total bleed sources: carve, rending slashes, dw axe passive, 2h axe passive, dw ultimate and Pillars of Nirn (other two sets is complete crap imho). But dw ult is meh, so max you can get is 1000 wpd. but more realistically 3-4 as you say. But now you can get max 665 wpd and in real life 399-532, and thats not that good since you need to run very special setup to get it.
Can you have both dual wield axe bleed and 2h axe bleed on a target at the same time? I assumed you couldn't, but with your post and given that they are different weapon types, I'm starting to think you can. I'm on console and can't test it.0 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭EpicRekkoning wrote: »Please correct me if I'm wrong, but bleed damage does NOT apply to all physical dots and unless I'm missing something, there's only 3 sources of bleed damage from skills; carve, rend, and axe passive. Berserking werewolf does bleed damage with claws, but there are no werewolf skills with bleed damage so you'll only add one bleed to a target. Sets like Nirn offer bleed damage too.
Considering all of this, the max number of bleeds you can have on one target is 4 - rend, carve, axe, and nirn. If all 4 were procced at the same time, the original set would only add 800 weapon damage. Since you can only control 2 of those bleeds, chances are you will only have 3 of the 4 active most of the time.
I agree with the OP that the nerf is unnecessary and this set will probably only be on par with hundings rage at best.
No.
Bleed sources:
Skills:
Heavy Weapons Bleed
Twin Blade and Blunt Bleed
Rending Slashes
Carve
Lacerate
Sets:
Pillar of Nirn
Savage Werewolf
Twin Sisters
So technically you can get 6 bleeds going on a target without extraordinary effort; Savage Werewolf has a guaranteed proc on lights/heavies. Even excluding Lacerate, it wouldn't be hard to LA + Carve, LA + Rending Slashes until those 4 bleeds are up (which will guarantee the Savage Werewolf bleed is also up), so keeping 5 bleeds up against a target wouldn't be all that difficult.Edited by LiquidPony on July 31, 2019 5:25PM0 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭EpicRekkoning wrote: »EpicRekkoning wrote: »Please correct me if I'm wrong, but bleed damage does NOT apply to all physical dots and unless I'm missing something, there's only 3 sources of bleed damage from skills; carve, rend, and axe passive. Berserking werewolf does bleed damage with claws, but there are no werewolf skills with bleed damage so you'll only add one bleed to a target. Sets like Nirn offer bleed damage too.
Considering all of this, the max number of bleeds you can have on one target is 4 - rend, carve, axe, and nirn. If all 4 were procced at the same time, the original set would only add 800 weapon damage. Since you can only control 2 of those bleeds, chances are you will only have 3 of the 4 active most of the time.
I agree with the OP that the nerf is unnecessary and this set will probably only be on par with hundings rage at best.
As I mention in previous posts there are 6 total bleed sources: carve, rending slashes, dw axe passive, 2h axe passive, dw ultimate and Pillars of Nirn (other two sets is complete crap imho). But dw ult is meh, so max you can get is 1000 wpd. but more realistically 3-4 as you say. But now you can get max 665 wpd and in real life 399-532, and thats not that good since you need to run very special setup to get it.
Can you have both dual wield axe bleed and 2h axe bleed on a target at the same time? I assumed you couldn't, but with your post and given that they are different weapon types, I'm starting to think you can. I'm on console and can't test it.
Yes. Different passives so they are both different dots.0 -
Kolzki✭✭✭✭✭From my tests with 2h back bar on a dummy parse I got about 33% up time on the 2h bleed doing a pve parse. Not very useful with the set front barred. Front bar dw axe bleed uptime was higher. I wouldn’t want to time burst around the rng from both axe procs while keeping dots up.
I was mostly interested in pve so I didn’t test the other bleed sets. I didn’t test Lacerate as the tool tip doesn’t say that it’s a bleed. I’m pretty sure that it isn’t.
The 200wd version was kinda fun on a back bar vMA battle axe setup. A bit behind a meta setup but kinda fun. The updated version is likely to fall into the standard “not as good as Hundings Rage” category.0 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭From my tests with 2h back bar on a dummy parse I got about 33% up time on the 2h bleed doing a pve parse. Not very useful with the set front barred. Front bar dw axe bleed uptime was higher. I wouldn’t want to time burst around the rng from both axe procs while keeping dots up.
I was mostly interested in pve so I didn’t test the other bleed sets. I didn’t test Lacerate as the tool tip doesn’t say that it’s a bleed. I’m pretty sure that it isn’t.
The 200wd version was kinda fun on a back bar vMA battle axe setup. A bit behind a meta setup but kinda fun. The updated version is likely to fall into the standard “not as good as Hundings Rage” category.
The tooltip of Lacerate absolutely does state it's a bleed.
And it definitely procs the 5-piece bonus of Dro'Zakar's Claws.Edited by LiquidPony on July 31, 2019 7:38PM0 -
Kolzki✭✭✭✭✭LiquidPony wrote: »From my tests with 2h back bar on a dummy parse I got about 33% up time on the 2h bleed doing a pve parse. Not very useful with the set front barred. Front bar dw axe bleed uptime was higher. I wouldn’t want to time burst around the rng from both axe procs while keeping dots up.
I was mostly interested in pve so I didn’t test the other bleed sets. I didn’t test Lacerate as the tool tip doesn’t say that it’s a bleed. I’m pretty sure that it isn’t.
The 200wd version was kinda fun on a back bar vMA battle axe setup. A bit behind a meta setup but kinda fun. The updated version is likely to fall into the standard “not as good as Hundings Rage” category.
The tooltip of Lacerate absolutely does state it's a bleed.
And it definitely procs the 5-piece bonus of Dro'Zakar's Claws.
Intersting. I didn't see that change when I was testing on the pts and as far as I can see it's not in the patch notes.
From live:
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Bladerunner1✭✭✭✭The set drops in PVE, and was underwhelming enough already in PVE.
But if you look at it closely from the PVP weapon damage loading perspective, it's still lame.
There you are with a great axe on one bar and a pair of axes on the other. You use a light attack and carve, then swap for rending slashes. Two guaranteed bleeds and just 49% chance of having any axe bleed. There were four hits to proc any bleed:
1- (1-.16)^4 = 49.8%
There is an 8% chance of getting both axe bleeds:
(1-(1-.16)^2) x (1-(1-.16)^2) = 8.6%
*Edit* added rest of the equation
So now everyone can enjoy that thrill of having 260 weapon damage up most the time from a conditional buff proc set.Edited by Bladerunner1 on August 1, 2019 6:18PM0 -
LiquidPony✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Bladerunner1 wrote: »The set drops in PVE, and was underwhelming enough already in PVE.
But if you look at it closely from the PVP weapon damage loading perspective, it's still lame.
There you are with a great axe on one bar and a pair of axes on the other. You use a light attack and carve, then swap for rending slashes. Two guaranteed bleeds and just 49% chance of having any axe bleed. There were four hits to proc any bleed:
(1-.16)^4 = 49.8%
There is an 8% chance of getting both axe bleeds:
(1-.16)^2 x (1-.16)^2 = 8.6%
So now everyone can enjoy that thrill of having 260 weapon damage up most the time from a conditional buff proc set.
I don't think the WD bonus you'd have "most of the time" was the issue.
The problem was that you could bide your time, wait for the right moment, and build up an overwhelming burst. No different from the Live versions of Fury or Ravager in that way. Regardless of the fact that you have to build specifically for it and wait for the right moment, it still enabled massive burst in the right circumstances. Paired with Savage Werewolf it is trivial to have 100% uptime on 3 bleeds ... then simply wait for your Heavy Weapons/Twin Blade and Blunt bleeds to proc and you were at +1000 WD.
I don't really understand why the set dropping in PvE is relevant, though. There are numerous PvP-oriented sets that drop in PvE content.1
