Why are drinks weaker than foods ?

ebix_ · July 2019

so the question is simple .
this is what they said :
Bloody Mara: Reduced the Max Health granted by approximately 14% and the Max Magicka granted by approximately 13% from this consumable. This was done to retain the fact that drinks are meant to be slightly weaker than their food counterparts, due to special item sets and bonuses that key off them.
( this nerf will make bloody mara which is a gold drink , weaker than a 2stats blue food )
it doesn't make sense to me that drinks should be weaker. because we have an option to use 5 piece of a set instead of many other sets that can be used to buff a certain type of consumables .
there are special sets for drinks yes .. but I don't know what is the bonus you are talking about ?
and even so..
what about this set
Green Pact
(2 items) Adds 1206 Max Health
(3 items) Adds 129 Health Recovery
(4 items) Adds 1206 Max Health
(5 items) While you have a food buff active,
your Max Health is increased by 2500 and Health Recovery by 250.

can you change this to a drink bonus too ? .. if they do then we can use this one with bright or pirate to get big stats so probably they won't and if this remain a food buff bonus then there is a special item set for foods too ........ so ! why should drinks be weaker than foods ?
and why quality levels in this game are so weird when it comes to consumables .gold>purple>blue ? isn't this what it should be ?
you buffed bloody mara this patch now after one patch it is going to be nerfed . to me it sounds like you don't know what your standards are and your reason to do this nerf also doesn't make sense .
I think it's time to revisit your consumable system once and for all and also try to respect your own quality level.

SodanTok · July 2019

Real Question is why are there golden bistat drinks at all. Why even have food/drink categories anymore and If answer is 'because we put 2 sets that are activated on drink' I have no words to answer that.

Evolution of special consumables on stamina:
Stamina/Health from blue foods, Stam regen from drinks -> Comes purple dubious with stam regen, stam and health on drink -> Comes blue food with Stamina and Stam Regen -> Comes golden Arteum with same things as dubious plus health recovery but its on food -> Comes golden Stamina/Health but its drink

Runefang · July 2019

Nerfing all the drinks in the game for these 2 sets is like cutting off your foot because its got an itch.

What a joke. It's yet one more small reason why Stam have an edge over Mag. Lava Foot is a food and Ghastly Eye Bowl is a drink and apparently one gets to be stronger simply because its food.

Lucky28 · July 2019

I dunno. but the drink nerf made both Drinks and These sets kinda worthless. after bloody mara nerf, i'm not using bright throat anymore.

ccmedaddy · July 2019

As a full time RPer I appreciate how this game reflects real world. Drinks are just empty calories, ppl!

GreenSoup2HoT · July 2019

Ive always used duel stat drinks on my stamblade. Wish i could get better ones tbh.

Lord-Otto · July 2019

ccmedaddy wrote: »

As a full time RPer I appreciate how this game reflects real world. Drinks are just empty calories, ppl!

They are in fact, fuel. Can even burn, for that matter. And without fuel, my engine dies.
So... cheers! (^.^)-U

SeaUnicorn · August 2019

ccmedaddy wrote: »

As a full time RPer I appreciate how this game reflects real world. Drinks are just empty calories, ppl!

Hold my Soylent...

Insco851 · August 2019

“This was done to retain the fact that drinks are meant to be slightly weaker than their food counterparts, due to special item sets and bonuses that key off them“

Pretty obvious why considering this statement. There’s also another thread that breaks down the math on all food and drinks and how they are theoretically balanced. When combining the drinks with said sets- they were in range of everything else as well. People still complained and fought that theory.

Then this little gem gets dropped. Straight from the horses mouth.

WrathOfInnos · August 2019

The justification that drinks must be weak because of sets like Bright Throat's Boast simply does not make sense. BTB has standard 2-4 piece bonuses, so the only thing it can be referring to is the 5pc 2000 Max Magicka + 150 Magicka Recovery. This is worth 2000/1096 + 150/129 = 2.99 standard set bonuses.

Compare that to other sets that provide conditional bonuses, the most similar I can think of would be Moondancer which also combines damage and recovery on the 5pc bonus, with the condition of using a synergy every 30s (pretty easy condition). Its 5pc bonus gives on average 224 Spell Damage + 224 Magicka Recovery, or 224/129 + 224/129 = 3.47 standard set bonuses.

Keep in mind that Moondancer is rarely used, because it is widely considered to be a weak set compared to others in the game, despite being easy to obtain in nMoL. So why exactly are half of the consumables in the game being made worthless?

Derra · August 2019

The best part is that those drink sets offer no statistical advantage over normal sets. They follow the same 5p set standard as all others.
Effectively making them always a stat loss when used with drinks that work as intended.

Mayrael · August 2019

ebix_ wrote: »

so the question is simple .
this is what they said :
Bloody Mara: Reduced the Max Health granted by approximately 14% and the Max Magicka granted by approximately 13% from this consumable. This was done to retain the fact that drinks are meant to be slightly weaker than their food counterparts, due to special item sets and bonuses that key off them.
( this nerf will make bloody mara which is a gold drink , weaker than a 2stats blue food )
it doesn't make sense to me that drinks should be weaker. because we have an option to use 5 piece of a set instead of many other sets that can be used to buff a certain type of consumables .
there are special sets for drinks yes .. but I don't know what is the bonus you are talking about ?
and even so..
what about this set
Green Pact
(2 items) Adds 1206 Max Health
(3 items) Adds 129 Health Recovery
(4 items) Adds 1206 Max Health
(5 items) While you have a food buff active,
your Max Health is increased by 2500 and Health Recovery by 250.

can you change this to a drink bonus too ? .. if they do then we can use this one with bright or pirate to get big stats so probably they won't and if this remain a food buff bonus then there is a special item set for foods too ........ so ! why should drinks be weaker than foods ?
and why quality levels in this game are so weird when it comes to consumables .gold>purple>blue ? isn't this what it should be ?
you buffed bloody mara this patch now after one patch it is going to be nerfed . to me it sounds like you don't know what your standards are and your reason to do this nerf also doesn't make sense .
I think it's time to revisit your consumable system once and for all and also try to respect your own quality level.

I said it last patch, because they want to make sure there is "some sort of balance" between gold/purple and blue food. Yeah despite that most gold food is 100x expensive than the blue one, and in general TOP TIER items should be better than some ordinary random item.

When it goes to food/drink balance I have no words... This is simply brilliant, so because we can use like 3 sets with drinks, let's nerf all drinks so without those sets it's pointless to use drinks.
Super Happy Innovative Truly Talented Youthful Development!

Dracane · August 2019

And then you realize, that Bright Throats and Bone Pirate do not even possess more potency than other 5 sets.
Their statement is non sensual when you think about it. And even IF these sets were so superior, this does not mean that all drinks should suffer. The answer would be to reduce the strenght of those sets, rather than all drinks in the game.

But then again, that would be logical thinking and we can not have that, right ?

Sennecca · August 2019

Crazy me. I always thought drinks helped regen and foods max stats. In one move, every drink in the game will be garbage. Even the gold ones - due to...? The presence of gear they created that derives stats from them? If the gear was op, everyone would be using it so why the nerf?

FrancisCrawford · August 2019

Fortunately Bloody Mara isn't that expensive to make, so the resources we wasted brewing some weren't that costly.

MartiniDaniels · August 2019

Because PVP.
Tbh, i don't know why anybody should bother, CWC is better then ghastly eye bowl and you don't have magicka orc which can exploit food without health bonus to be best of the best.

Hashtag_ · August 2019

So you’re saying there should be “protein shakes/meal replacement shakes” that function as drink but can also be food?

Emma_Overload · August 2019

Runefang wrote: »

Nerfing all the drinks in the game for these 2 sets is like cutting off your foot because its got an itch.

What a joke. It's yet one more small reason why Stam have an edge over Mag. Lava Foot is a food and Ghastly Eye Bowl is a drink and apparently one gets to be stronger simply because its food.

This tea is scalding hot!

kojou · August 2019

I support the sentiment of this post. I always thought it was weird that blue 2 stat food was superior for PvE, and now I guess we are back to that after a short time of a gold drink being the best.

Lucky28 · August 2019

Insco851 wrote: »

“This was done to retain the fact that drinks are meant to be slightly weaker than their food counterparts, due to special item sets and bonuses that key off them“

Pretty obvious why considering this statement. There’s also another thread that breaks down the math on all food and drinks and how they are theoretically balanced. When combining the drinks with said sets- they were in range of everything else as well. People still complained and fought that theory.

Then this little gem gets dropped. Straight from the horses mouth.

it's not because of those sets, those sets aren't even that strong compared to other 5 pc sets. drinks got nerfed because everyone was using either witchmothers, dubious or gold food because of Morrowind.

Insco851 · August 2019

Lucky28 wrote: »

Insco851 wrote: »

“This was done to retain the fact that drinks are meant to be slightly weaker than their food counterparts, due to special item sets and bonuses that key off them“

Pretty obvious why considering this statement. There’s also another thread that breaks down the math on all food and drinks and how they are theoretically balanced. When combining the drinks with said sets- they were in range of everything else as well. People still complained and fought that theory.

Then this little gem gets dropped. Straight from the horses mouth.

it's not because of those sets, those sets aren't even that strong compared to other 5 pc sets. drinks got nerfed because everyone was using either witchmothers, dubious or gold food because of Morrowind.

Yes, but the drinks being weaker were originally due to those sets. Then they nerfed them again.

Lucky28 · August 2019

Insco851 wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Insco851 wrote: »

“This was done to retain the fact that drinks are meant to be slightly weaker than their food counterparts, due to special item sets and bonuses that key off them“

Pretty obvious why considering this statement. There’s also another thread that breaks down the math on all food and drinks and how they are theoretically balanced. When combining the drinks with said sets- they were in range of everything else as well. People still complained and fought that theory.

Then this little gem gets dropped. Straight from the horses mouth.

it's not because of those sets, those sets aren't even that strong compared to other 5 pc sets. drinks got nerfed because everyone was using either witchmothers, dubious or gold food because of Morrowind.

Yes, but the drinks being weaker were originally due to those sets. Then they nerfed them again.

hmm, i don't think so. there was only bone pirate. Bright throat is not that old.

Gnortranermara · August 2019

It's non-sense. Bright-Thoat is weaker than a dozen alternatives, and would continue to be weaker even if blue food and Bloody Mara stat values were identical. (And they should be identical.)

They just buffed it recently and now nerf it. It's just one more proof in a long list of proofs (Blazing Spear, Solar Barrage, etc) that the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing at ZOS. Buff, nerf, buff, nerf... I'm getting whiplash. They keep throwing out massive ~40% changes for no sensible reason whatsoever. Any change of that magnitude is a sign of incompetence.

Lucky28 · August 2019

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

It's non-sense. Bright-Thoat is weaker than a dozen alternatives, and would continue to be weaker even if the food and drink stat values were identical. (And they should be identical.)

They just buffed it recently and now nerf it. It's just one more proof in a long list of proofs (Blazing Spear, Solar Barrage, etc) that the left hand doesn't know what the right hand is doing at ZOS. Buff, nerf, buff, nerf... I'm getting whiplash. They keep throwing out massive ~40% changes for no sensible reason whatsoever. Any change of that magnitude is a sign of incompetence.

Max stat wise. drinks should be slightly weaker than food as drinks also give regen. As it is now however, the difference between drink and food is way to large. they where fine where they where before drinks where nerfed with elsweyr.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO · August 2019

Insco851 wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

Insco851 wrote: »

“This was done to retain the fact that drinks are meant to be slightly weaker than their food counterparts, due to special item sets and bonuses that key off them“

Pretty obvious why considering this statement. There’s also another thread that breaks down the math on all food and drinks and how they are theoretically balanced. When combining the drinks with said sets- they were in range of everything else as well. People still complained and fought that theory.

Then this little gem gets dropped. Straight from the horses mouth.

it's not because of those sets, those sets aren't even that strong compared to other 5 pc sets. drinks got nerfed because everyone was using either witchmothers, dubious or gold food because of Morrowind.

Yes, but the drinks being weaker were originally due to those sets. Then they nerfed them again.

i would say drinks being weaker was originally because they only were regen, no max stats, most still are. and that is why they are "weaker", no one cares about regen that is not tied to max stats.

Iskiab · August 2019

WrathOfInnos wrote: »

The justification that drinks must be weak because of sets like Bright Throat's Boast simply does not make sense. BTB has standard 2-4 piece bonuses, so the only thing it can be referring to is the 5pc 2000 Max Magicka + 150 Magicka Recovery. This is worth 2000/1096 + 150/129 = 2.99 standard set bonuses.

Compare that to other sets that provide conditional bonuses, the most similar I can think of would be Moondancer which also combines damage and recovery on the 5pc bonus, with the condition of using a synergy every 30s (pretty easy condition). Its 5pc bonus gives on average 224 Spell Damage + 224 Magicka Recovery, or 224/129 + 224/129 = 3.47 standard set bonuses.

Keep in mind that Moondancer is rarely used, because it is widely considered to be a weak set compared to others in the game, despite being easy to obtain in nMoL. So why exactly are half of the consumables in the game being made worthless?

I think you hit the nail on the head. Instead of nerfing bone pirate and bright throat they nerfed all drinks.

twing1_ · August 2019

Drinks were originally designed to be weaker than food because all drinks used to give only recovery instead of max stats, and for whatever reason ZOS decided that food/drink sources of recovery should be weaker than item set bonuses to recovery (as evidenced by 1096 max stats = 129 recovery for item set bonuses, but recovery being weighted weaker than that ratio when it comes to foods).

If you ask me, it's nonsensical. Every source of character stats (be it max resources, recovery, resistances, etc) should be balanced around the same values. It doesn't make sense for 95% of the game to be balanced around those, and then all of a sudden change it up to something different for the last 5%.

With foods in mind, this would mean that max stats and recovery should be valued at the 1096 max resource to 129 recovery ratio found present in item set bonuses, mundus stones, and basically every other source of stats in the game. A food bonus shouldn't be inherently weaker just because it's bonus includes recovery. This of course would be the case in a perfect world, and not our current reality. But, just for fun, this is how I would rebalance all foods (and drinks):

White quality: single stat, 6 item set bonuses
Green quality: single stat, 7 item set bonuses
Blue quality: bi stat, 8 item set bonuses
Purple quality: tri stat, 9 item set bonuses
Gold quality: quad stat, 12 item set bonuses

Where item set bonuses are 1096 max resources (or 1206 for health) or 129 recovery. The number of item set bonuses would be distributed evenly between the different stats the food offers, so if a food offers 2 stats, both stats would have an equal amount of item set bonuses dedicated to it (ex/ blue health/stam food would have 4 set bonuses for health and 4 for stamina).

Note how as the quality of food/drink increases, so does the total number of item set bonuses. In most quality jumps (ex/ green to blue), the total number of set bonuses increases by only 1 set bonus. The only exception is the difference between purple and gold, which shoots up 3 set bonuses, which basically allows gold food to be the same values as purple food plus one additional stat. This is to justify the extreme cost associated with gold food.

TheYKcid · August 2019

Good thread so far.

I like the fact that people are actually doing the stat density comparisons to show that Bone Pirate + BTB are not special in any way. Thus underbudgeting drinks on account of these 2 sets makes ZERO sense, since the sets themselves do not overperform.

To add to the body of evidence, I have some posts in an old thread comparing them to several other sets (Necropotence. Automaton, Shacklebreaker):
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/474300/not-all-food-and-drink-has-made-it-to-statistical-parity-yet/p1

Gnortranermara · August 2019

Lucky28 wrote: »

drinks should be slightly weaker than food as drinks also give regen.

Bloody Mara does not give regen, and Bloody Mara is the topic of conversation, not the standard regen drinks.

Lucky28 · August 2019

SidewalkChalk5 wrote: »

Lucky28 wrote: »

drinks should be slightly weaker than food as drinks also give regen.

Bloody Mara does not give regen, and Bloody Mara is the topic of conversation, not the standard regen drinks.

Well, i would like to use Witchmothers and Dubious again. so i'm talking drinks in general.

However, my post says it all "because they give regen" if said drinks don't give regen then a higher max resource value is justified.

BattleAxe · August 2019

Solution allow an additional provisioning crafting tier meals aka mixing a drink and food together combining the 2 or simply allow us to use a food and a drink this is realism to provisioning