Discrepancies in Skill Standards

BlackMadara · August 2019

I understand that this audit is to bring skills into a set of standards to make balance work easier in the future. However, these standards are not very clear and there seem to be skills that either have too much or too little power. There are multiple guild/world/weapon skills that seem to be too strong compared to class skills.

I am specifically looking at Magicka Dragonknight. The following values are with no CP, 30k Magicka and 2.7k spell damage. All passives unlocked. Flame Destro Staff

Single Target DoTs:
-Burning Embers: 3524 direct, 15858/12s, 1322/s only DoT, 1615/s adding the direct damage
-Destructive Touch: 3225 direct, 12900/10s, 1290/s only DoT, 1613/s adding the direct damage
-ConsumingTrap (level 1): 16128/10s, 1613/s
-Structured Entropy: 18816/12s, 1568/s

All of these skills come with bonuses. Burning Embers also heals for 75% of the damage done, but Consuming Trap has a conditional heal and resource return, and Structured Entropy comes with a weak HoT and Major Sorcery. Does the direct damage portion of Burning Embers really take up so much power budget that the DoT does so little damage compared to generic skills? That doesn't seem the case seeing the similar damage in Destructive Touch. This is even factoring in the improved Searing Heat passive. This does not enforce the "attrition based" combat style of the DK. Burning Embers seems to be at the "DoT Standard," not 10% above it as stated in the latest patch notes.

Heals:
-Coagulating Blood: 7143 instant, 9029 at 20% hp (1.264 modifier)
-Cauterize: 4628/5s (15s, 4 procs), 1234/s
-Mutagen (level III): 14934/10, 1493/s, 9160 instant at 20% hp (seems buggy, doesn't proc instantly)
-Rapid Regeneration: 14934/5, 2987/s

Here we see that Coag Blood heals only the caster for a similar amount of hp at 20% hp that Mutagen, with Mutagen also supplying a HoT that heals for more per second than Cauterize. Rapid Regen heals for more than twice as much Cauterize, 64% of Cauterize proc in one tick, although it only lasts for 5 seconds.

I was under the assumption that Class skills were supposed to be more powerful than generic skills. This is not the case in the above examples. DKs aren't the only class suffering from this issue. Nightblades Mass Hysteria fears up to 6 targets in a 6m radius, while Turn Evel, a guild skill, fears up to 6 targets in a 5m radius, while also providing minor protection and minro endurance while in the area.

Heymexa · August 2019

I agree.

Sorcerer. Lightning flood (and LL morph) - becomes an unnecessary ability. Difficult ground dot and low DPS.

Twilight is a useless ability.
Occupies 2 slots!!!!! at 3000dps
Requires Daedrick Prey

Stop this patch!

kaithuzar · August 2019

@BlackMadara
This really infuriates me...(allow me to explain)

I’m not a math genius but you seem to be one of a number of them on this forum.
For YEARS I have seen math geniuses provide detailed, good, relevant notes, information & suggestions to DK, occasionally to sorc.

WHEN are the rest of the classes going to have a math genius stand up for them???

Mayrael · August 2019

DKs are not the only ones. MagBlades and their mass histerya < turn evil, cripple and the new dots, Phantasmal escape < shuffle... And I think we could find many more on other specs.

Wuuffyy · August 2019

Ha get standardized boi. The massive heal you get got you there. Get nerfed.

Insco851 · August 2019

Wolf_Watching wrote: »

Ha get standardized boi. The massive heal you get got you there. Get nerfed.

Did you read the OP?

The class won’t be any less viable- except for the fact that class skills will get exchanged for generic counterparts that ended up stronger. Yet every class will be doing the same or something similar...

it’s garbage game design not “get nerfed! ha”

Derra · August 2019

I’d argue the only dot not hitting the standards here would be flame reach - because it has no secondary functionality yet only deals the same dmg.
No reason to slot it before you slotted the other 3. that’s not competitive- it’s strictly worse.

This is from a pvp perspective.

Saril_Durzam · August 2019

Heymexa wrote: »

I agree.

Sorcerer. Lightning flood (and LL morph) - becomes an unnecessary ability. Difficult ground dot and low DPS.

Twilight is a useless ability.
Occupies 2 slots!!!!! at 3000dps
Requires Daedrick Prey

Stop this patch!

3k dps? Not after patch, its closer to 1k more than to 3k.

MashmalloMan · August 2019

BlackMadara wrote: »

Single Target DoTs:
-Burning Embers: 3524 direct, 15858/12s, 1322/s only DoT, 1615/s adding the direct damage
-Destructive Touch: 3225 direct, 12900/10s, 1290/s only DoT, 1613/s adding the direct damage
-ConsumingTrap (level 1): 16128/10s, 1613/s
-Structured Entropy: 18816/12s, 1568/s

Hate to say it, but from a pve perspective they're pretty close to balanced in my opinion. Key word close.

Destructive Touch is basically the same thing as Poison Injection without the Execute scaling which already makes it undervalued in comparison. This needs to change. It also gets access to the Destro skill line passives.

Consuming Trap does the same DPS in the same 10s window as Destructive Reach, but is only Magicka damage instead of Fire so no status proc's and thus no synergy with DK's toolkit. The sustain it provides seems strong in the right circumstance, but the ability has no useful passives whatsoever.

Burning Embers is a 7m Melee instead of the 28m of the other abilities, as a result it's given the opportunity to last 12s instead of the standard 10s, the DPS may be the same as Destructive Reach, but there is more total damage like Structured Entropy. It's also given a very potent heal that can be consumed at any time by refreshing the ability and works as a synergy with Molten Whip.

Structured Entropy does about the same DPS as the rest, but has the Mage's Guild passives. As a result, it lasts 12s instead of 10s, offers stats while slotted, as well as Empower on cast, but only does Magicka damage instead of Fire. The hot is weaker, but it does offer easy access to Major Sorcery, redundant to some, useful to many.

They all have there pro's and con's. The only thing I'd really change is how Searing Heat works. Passives and Morphs should be what makes the skills unique, but they should start at the same base value. This is not present for Burning Ember and morphs, it relies on the Searing Heat passive to be brought up to standards when that should be something that makes it unique like how Structured Entropy is handled with the Mages Guild.

Keep in mind, you want more flame damage on DK to get the synergy with your combustion passive, that makes Entropy and Soul Trap lower on my list of interest if they'd actually readjust Destro Reach to be useful.

For example:

Searing Strike: 3k direct, 10k/10s - 5m (Increase base duration to 10s, reduce passive duration increase to +2s)
Burning Embers: 3k direct, 10k/10s, Heal for Damage Dealt - 5m
- Increase duration by 2s and increase damage by 10%, flame damage, +2m melee range, synergy with Molten Whip.

Destructive Touch: 3k direct, 10k/10s - 28m
Destructive Reach: 3k direct, 10k/10s, "Insert New Effect Here" - 28m
- Destro staff passives, etc, flame damage.

Soul Trap: 13k/10s - 28m
Consuming Trap: 13k/10s, 20% Stam/Mag/HP return if target dies - 28m
- No passives, no element, but 20% to all 3 source return is op + dynamic scaling.

Entropy: 13k/10s (Major Sorcery) - 28m
Structured Entropy: 13k/10s (Major Sorcery), adds small hot - 28m
- Increase duration by 2s, no element, but empower on cast and extra mag/rec when slotted.

TLDR: They're close. Something else to note, the Magicka cost of each ability not in the OP. Imo they should all have the same cost, except DK's get -15% for it being in melee range or something like that in comparison.

Derra · August 2019

Agree completely with the above post - really hope a dev reads that 😬

MartiniDaniels · August 2019

Though I agree with post idea, you can't compare things in pure math. You need to have full min-maxed build and rotation on dummy on particular classes to see real differences.

For example your calculations assume that embers are better then destructive touch, but if you place destructive touch on class with direct bonuses to damage like sorc, nb or warden, it might end up more powerful then embers. Then you may say that in PVP embers will be empowered by engulfing flames, true, but in PVE destructive touch of sorc or NB will be empowered by engulfing flames from tank too.

So it's not that simple.

BlackMadara · August 2019

MartiniDaniels wrote: »

Though I agree with post idea, you can't compare things in pure math. You need to have full min-maxed build and rotation on dummy on particular classes to see real differences.

For example your calculations assume that embers are better then destructive touch, but if you place destructive touch on class with direct bonuses to damage like sorc, nb or warden, it might end up more powerful then embers. Then you may say that in PVP embers will be empowered by engulfing flames, true, but in PVE destructive touch of sorc or NB will be empowered by engulfing flames from tank too.

So it's not that simple.

The point I am trying to make is that certain class skills seem to be weaker than the standard in generic skills. ZoS has never stated that they balance fire vs magic damage, or consider synergistic effects. These things would, presumably, balanced after everything is set to a certain standard, or power budget. The entire standardization process is based on math first, then practical application would be considered once everything is able to be effectively compared.

So in these examples, multiple class skills are underpowered compared to generic skills. Searing Heat passive brings Burning Embers to the standard set for single target DoTs, when BE should already be at the standard and then improved by the passive for class specialty.

This could be something as simple as a mistake in coding with the new passive. The Mutagen example is far from balanced, however. It can be cast on multiple people, heals for more per second than Cauterize, and has a burst heal as strong as Coagulating Blood. This skill costs the same as Cauterize, much less than Coag Blood. Cauterize does have the benefit of being a psuedo burst heal HoT, but it also isn't able to be cast on multiple targets. Mutagen seems to be overloaded, and Cauterize underpowered, in comparison to the single target HoT and burst heal standards set into place.

It would be wonderful to get some explanation of the power levels that ZoS wants certain skill categories to have. There seem s to be more than a few outliers. @ZOS_GinaBruno