Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »MojaveHeld wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »The Cosmetic non combat pets have no clipping so dont affect anything.
I agree that Matriarchs need to go Roost somewhere while the player is in a town.
Can you clarify what you want a Pet Sorc to do in a town where there are quests that require combat, like Daggerfall, Orsinium, Vivec, etc?
Can you clarify what justice system Pet Sorcs should do when attacked by guards in towns, such as if they were trying to steal from safeboxes in areas near crafting stations or in crowded buildings like banks?
Do they just have to suck it up and lose access to that skill because it annoys people?
ESO really isn't built very well for a retroactive "Sorry, you can't have your Twilight (or scamp/bear) anymore" change. I would hope that ZOS can come up with a better solution to the issues with pets blocking cameras than just taking away combat abilities in towns.
I mean, the same thing necromancers have to do, I'd imagine.
Necromancers were designed that way.
That's not remotely the same as telling established classes "Sorry, you've been able to use this skill anywhere you like for 2 years/since launch, but now you can't."
That's not really true, at all. Necromancers aren't balanced around not being able to use some of their most important abilities in cities. They're simply forced to suck it up and deal with it, even though it makes things more difficult and less convenient for them. So taking away sorc pets in towns would hardly be unfair compared to that. In fact, it's a lesser amount of abilities for pet sorcs to lose access to in towns than necromancers already have to deal with it. And unlike with necros, there's actually a good gameplay reason to do it (the necro handicap is purely for rp reasons, disabling sorc pets in towns removes the obstacle they represent to other players). So, if anything, taking away sorc pets in towns would be far better gameplay design than what currently happens with necromancers. There are still plenty of valid reasons to be against what was proposed, but what you brought up isn't one of them.
My point was more that while Necromancers launched with a mechanic that deprives them of some of their skills, something that is made clear upfront from the beginning in the character screen at Elsweyr launch...
In contrast, Sorcs and Wardens have been able to use their pets whenever, wherever they like, since launch and since Morrowind, respectively. This would be a retroactive change for those classes and players, which is a clear difference from the necromancer situation. It requires removing existing functionality from two classes - not for "balance" reasons - purely because players are annoyed.
So the "but Necromancers..." excuse doesnt fly. A class that has restricted ability use from its launch is NOT the same as advocating for taking away abilities that two classes have been able to use whenever they want for 2+ and 5+ years.
I should hope that ZOS can come up with a better solution to pet collision and camera blocking than that.
So you’re saying the humble NPC’s of Tamriel wouldn’t take offence to plethora of daedra amongst them? Players will adapt, they always do. And it’ll be up front for new players
VaranisArano wrote: »That Twilight Matriarch you are complaining about IS a combat pet.
Go play a Pet Sorc or a Warden and then tell us how they are "cosmetic at best."
VaranisArano wrote: »Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »MojaveHeld wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »The Cosmetic non combat pets have no clipping so dont affect anything.
I agree that Matriarchs need to go Roost somewhere while the player is in a town.
Can you clarify what you want a Pet Sorc to do in a town where there are quests that require combat, like Daggerfall, Orsinium, Vivec, etc?
Can you clarify what justice system Pet Sorcs should do when attacked by guards in towns, such as if they were trying to steal from safeboxes in areas near crafting stations or in crowded buildings like banks?
Do they just have to suck it up and lose access to that skill because it annoys people?
ESO really isn't built very well for a retroactive "Sorry, you can't have your Twilight (or scamp/bear) anymore" change. I would hope that ZOS can come up with a better solution to the issues with pets blocking cameras than just taking away combat abilities in towns.
I mean, the same thing necromancers have to do, I'd imagine.
Necromancers were designed that way.
That's not remotely the same as telling established classes "Sorry, you've been able to use this skill anywhere you like for 2 years/since launch, but now you can't."
That's not really true, at all. Necromancers aren't balanced around not being able to use some of their most important abilities in cities. They're simply forced to suck it up and deal with it, even though it makes things more difficult and less convenient for them. So taking away sorc pets in towns would hardly be unfair compared to that. In fact, it's a lesser amount of abilities for pet sorcs to lose access to in towns than necromancers already have to deal with it. And unlike with necros, there's actually a good gameplay reason to do it (the necro handicap is purely for rp reasons, disabling sorc pets in towns removes the obstacle they represent to other players). So, if anything, taking away sorc pets in towns would be far better gameplay design than what currently happens with necromancers. There are still plenty of valid reasons to be against what was proposed, but what you brought up isn't one of them.
My point was more that while Necromancers launched with a mechanic that deprives them of some of their skills, something that is made clear upfront from the beginning in the character screen at Elsweyr launch...
In contrast, Sorcs and Wardens have been able to use their pets whenever, wherever they like, since launch and since Morrowind, respectively. This would be a retroactive change for those classes and players, which is a clear difference from the necromancer situation. It requires removing existing functionality from two classes - not for "balance" reasons - purely because players are annoyed.
So the "but Necromancers..." excuse doesnt fly. A class that has restricted ability use from its launch is NOT the same as advocating for taking away abilities that two classes have been able to use whenever they want for 2+ and 5+ years.
I should hope that ZOS can come up with a better solution to pet collision and camera blocking than that.
So you’re saying the humble NPC’s of Tamriel wouldn’t take offence to plethora of daedra amongst them? Players will adapt, they always do. And it’ll be up front for new players
The humble NPCs of Tamriel didnt care in TES 3, TES 4 or TES 5, and they havent cared In ESO for 5 years, so that's a poor argument. I mean, TES IV Oblivion literally had daedra pouring out of the Deadlands, and no one batted an eye at what I summoned.
As for the rest, not only could you say the same the same about every single nerf in ESO, none of that is a good justification for taking away pet abilities we've been able to use wherever we liked for 5 years (Sorcs) or 2 years (Wardens) in areas where we can get into combat just because you are annoyed.
There's no "balance" reason for taking away those abilities in towns. Just a "QOL" improvement at the expense of every pet-using warden or sorc who gets into combat within town limits which is allowed and indeed encouraged by ESO's quests and justice system!
ZOS needs to find a better solution, one that doesnt involve taking away pets from Sorcs and Wardens in combat areas.
Hazurko_RaShan wrote: »Nightblades have a pet?
Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »MojaveHeld wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »The Cosmetic non combat pets have no clipping so dont affect anything.
I agree that Matriarchs need to go Roost somewhere while the player is in a town.
Can you clarify what you want a Pet Sorc to do in a town where there are quests that require combat, like Daggerfall, Orsinium, Vivec, etc?
Can you clarify what justice system Pet Sorcs should do when attacked by guards in towns, such as if they were trying to steal from safeboxes in areas near crafting stations or in crowded buildings like banks?
Do they just have to suck it up and lose access to that skill because it annoys people?
ESO really isn't built very well for a retroactive "Sorry, you can't have your Twilight (or scamp/bear) anymore" change. I would hope that ZOS can come up with a better solution to the issues with pets blocking cameras than just taking away combat abilities in towns.
I mean, the same thing necromancers have to do, I'd imagine.
Necromancers were designed that way.
That's not remotely the same as telling established classes "Sorry, you've been able to use this skill anywhere you like for 2 years/since launch, but now you can't."
That's not really true, at all. Necromancers aren't balanced around not being able to use some of their most important abilities in cities. They're simply forced to suck it up and deal with it, even though it makes things more difficult and less convenient for them. So taking away sorc pets in towns would hardly be unfair compared to that. In fact, it's a lesser amount of abilities for pet sorcs to lose access to in towns than necromancers already have to deal with it. And unlike with necros, there's actually a good gameplay reason to do it (the necro handicap is purely for rp reasons, disabling sorc pets in towns removes the obstacle they represent to other players). So, if anything, taking away sorc pets in towns would be far better gameplay design than what currently happens with necromancers. There are still plenty of valid reasons to be against what was proposed, but what you brought up isn't one of them.
My point was more that while Necromancers launched with a mechanic that deprives them of some of their skills, something that is made clear upfront from the beginning in the character screen at Elsweyr launch...
In contrast, Sorcs and Wardens have been able to use their pets whenever, wherever they like, since launch and since Morrowind, respectively. This would be a retroactive change for those classes and players, which is a clear difference from the necromancer situation. It requires removing existing functionality from two classes - not for "balance" reasons - purely because players are annoyed.
So the "but Necromancers..." excuse doesnt fly. A class that has restricted ability use from its launch is NOT the same as advocating for taking away abilities that two classes have been able to use whenever they want for 2+ and 5+ years.
I should hope that ZOS can come up with a better solution to pet collision and camera blocking than that.
So you’re saying the humble NPC’s of Tamriel wouldn’t take offence to plethora of daedra amongst them? Players will adapt, they always do. And it’ll be up front for new players
Hazurko_RaShan wrote: »Nightblades have a pet?
MojaveHeld wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »MojaveHeld wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »The Cosmetic non combat pets have no clipping so dont affect anything.
I agree that Matriarchs need to go Roost somewhere while the player is in a town.
Can you clarify what you want a Pet Sorc to do in a town where there are quests that require combat, like Daggerfall, Orsinium, Vivec, etc?
Can you clarify what justice system Pet Sorcs should do when attacked by guards in towns, such as if they were trying to steal from safeboxes in areas near crafting stations or in crowded buildings like banks?
Do they just have to suck it up and lose access to that skill because it annoys people?
ESO really isn't built very well for a retroactive "Sorry, you can't have your Twilight (or scamp/bear) anymore" change. I would hope that ZOS can come up with a better solution to the issues with pets blocking cameras than just taking away combat abilities in towns.
I mean, the same thing necromancers have to do, I'd imagine.
Necromancers were designed that way.
That's not remotely the same as telling established classes "Sorry, you've been able to use this skill anywhere you like for 2 years/since launch, but now you can't."
That's not really true, at all. Necromancers aren't balanced around not being able to use some of their most important abilities in cities. They're simply forced to suck it up and deal with it, even though it makes things more difficult and less convenient for them. So taking away sorc pets in towns would hardly be unfair compared to that. In fact, it's a lesser amount of abilities for pet sorcs to lose access to in towns than necromancers already have to deal with it. And unlike with necros, there's actually a good gameplay reason to do it (the necro handicap is purely for rp reasons, disabling sorc pets in towns removes the obstacle they represent to other players). So, if anything, taking away sorc pets in towns would be far better gameplay design than what currently happens with necromancers. There are still plenty of valid reasons to be against what was proposed, but what you brought up isn't one of them.
My point was more that while Necromancers launched with a mechanic that deprives them of some of their skills, something that is made clear upfront from the beginning in the character screen at Elsweyr launch...
In contrast, Sorcs and Wardens have been able to use their pets whenever, wherever they like, since launch and since Morrowind, respectively. This would be a retroactive change for those classes and players, which is a clear difference from the necromancer situation. It requires removing existing functionality from two classes - not for "balance" reasons - purely because players are annoyed.
So the "but Necromancers..." excuse doesnt fly. A class that has restricted ability use from its launch is NOT the same as advocating for taking away abilities that two classes have been able to use whenever they want for 2+ and 5+ years.
I should hope that ZOS can come up with a better solution to pet collision and camera blocking than that.
So you’re saying the humble NPC’s of Tamriel wouldn’t take offence to plethora of daedra amongst them? Players will adapt, they always do. And it’ll be up front for new players
The humble NPCs of Tamriel didnt care in TES 3, TES 4 or TES 5, and they havent cared In ESO for 5 years, so that's a poor argument. I mean, TES IV Oblivion literally had daedra pouring out of the Deadlands, and no one batted an eye at what I summoned.
As for the rest, not only could you say the same the same about every single nerf in ESO, none of that is a good justification for taking away pet abilities we've been able to use wherever we liked for 5 years (Sorcs) or 2 years (Wardens) in areas where we can get into combat just because you are annoyed.
There's no "balance" reason for taking away those abilities in towns. Just a "QOL" improvement at the expense of every pet-using warden or sorc who gets into combat within town limits which is allowed and indeed encouraged by ESO's quests and justice system!
ZOS needs to find a better solution, one that doesnt involve taking away pets from Sorcs and Wardens in combat areas.
You keep saying this, but it's simply not true. How long you've been able to use them up to this point is 100%, totally and completely irrelevant. Every class has had to deal with a change they didn't like at some point. There is not a single thing specifically unfair about this proposed change to sorc pets in cities, they don't get to demand special treatment. If necros can deal with a harsher handicap in cities, pet sorcs don't get to scream that it's unfair to disable their pets in them, which has a much more valid justification to happen than for necros. Full stop. You can be against the proposal for other reasons, but this is not even close to a valid one. It has no merit, stop using it as an argument.
VaranisArano wrote: »MojaveHeld wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »MojaveHeld wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »The Cosmetic non combat pets have no clipping so dont affect anything.
I agree that Matriarchs need to go Roost somewhere while the player is in a town.
Can you clarify what you want a Pet Sorc to do in a town where there are quests that require combat, like Daggerfall, Orsinium, Vivec, etc?
Can you clarify what justice system Pet Sorcs should do when attacked by guards in towns, such as if they were trying to steal from safeboxes in areas near crafting stations or in crowded buildings like banks?
Do they just have to suck it up and lose access to that skill because it annoys people?
ESO really isn't built very well for a retroactive "Sorry, you can't have your Twilight (or scamp/bear) anymore" change. I would hope that ZOS can come up with a better solution to the issues with pets blocking cameras than just taking away combat abilities in towns.
I mean, the same thing necromancers have to do, I'd imagine.
Necromancers were designed that way.
That's not remotely the same as telling established classes "Sorry, you've been able to use this skill anywhere you like for 2 years/since launch, but now you can't."
That's not really true, at all. Necromancers aren't balanced around not being able to use some of their most important abilities in cities. They're simply forced to suck it up and deal with it, even though it makes things more difficult and less convenient for them. So taking away sorc pets in towns would hardly be unfair compared to that. In fact, it's a lesser amount of abilities for pet sorcs to lose access to in towns than necromancers already have to deal with it. And unlike with necros, there's actually a good gameplay reason to do it (the necro handicap is purely for rp reasons, disabling sorc pets in towns removes the obstacle they represent to other players). So, if anything, taking away sorc pets in towns would be far better gameplay design than what currently happens with necromancers. There are still plenty of valid reasons to be against what was proposed, but what you brought up isn't one of them.
My point was more that while Necromancers launched with a mechanic that deprives them of some of their skills, something that is made clear upfront from the beginning in the character screen at Elsweyr launch...
In contrast, Sorcs and Wardens have been able to use their pets whenever, wherever they like, since launch and since Morrowind, respectively. This would be a retroactive change for those classes and players, which is a clear difference from the necromancer situation. It requires removing existing functionality from two classes - not for "balance" reasons - purely because players are annoyed.
So the "but Necromancers..." excuse doesnt fly. A class that has restricted ability use from its launch is NOT the same as advocating for taking away abilities that two classes have been able to use whenever they want for 2+ and 5+ years.
I should hope that ZOS can come up with a better solution to pet collision and camera blocking than that.
So you’re saying the humble NPC’s of Tamriel wouldn’t take offence to plethora of daedra amongst them? Players will adapt, they always do. And it’ll be up front for new players
The humble NPCs of Tamriel didnt care in TES 3, TES 4 or TES 5, and they havent cared In ESO for 5 years, so that's a poor argument. I mean, TES IV Oblivion literally had daedra pouring out of the Deadlands, and no one batted an eye at what I summoned.
As for the rest, not only could you say the same the same about every single nerf in ESO, none of that is a good justification for taking away pet abilities we've been able to use wherever we liked for 5 years (Sorcs) or 2 years (Wardens) in areas where we can get into combat just because you are annoyed.
There's no "balance" reason for taking away those abilities in towns. Just a "QOL" improvement at the expense of every pet-using warden or sorc who gets into combat within town limits which is allowed and indeed encouraged by ESO's quests and justice system!
ZOS needs to find a better solution, one that doesnt involve taking away pets from Sorcs and Wardens in combat areas.
You keep saying this, but it's simply not true. How long you've been able to use them up to this point is 100%, totally and completely irrelevant. Every class has had to deal with a change they didn't like at some point. There is not a single thing specifically unfair about this proposed change to sorc pets in cities, they don't get to demand special treatment. If necros can deal with a harsher handicap in cities, pet sorcs don't get to scream that it's unfair to disable their pets in them, which has a much more valid justification to happen than for necros. Full stop. You can be against the proposal for other reasons, but this is not even close to a valid one. It has no merit, stop using it as an argument.
1. Necros have restrictions for lore reasons.
Summoners/Conjurers don't have that restriction in ESO or any other TES games.
2. Necros had their restrictions from their launch.
You advocate for taking away abilities Sorcs and Wardens have been able to use for years, in areas that ZOS designed for combat. That's a change at the expense of existing Sorc and Warden players, and yes, that's unfair - there is zero "balance" reasons for this, just player annoyance.
I see a pretty clear difference between a new class designed with restricted abilities vs calling for existing classes to be nerfed in certain combat areas because you are annoyed. Nor do I see any lore or balance reason why Sorcs and Wardens ought to be redesigned to match Necros!
I'm going to continue to argue that removing Sorc and Warden pets from towns is a terrible idea because it prevents Sorcs and Wardens from using combat pets in areas explicitly designed for combat, she, they've been able to do that for years. ZOS could come up much better solutions, and you know it.
ZOS could fix pet collision.
ZOS could fix pets blocking the camera.
ZOS could fix pet pathing.
ZOS could make it so pets have to be re-summoned if you want,to use them in town for quests or justice system content.
ZOS could even disable all combat near crafting stations/quest NPCs (would require removing justice system interactions) in order to justify turning off pets in those areas.
A flat removal of Sorc and Warden pets is the most unfair option ZOS could take...and yet its the one you advocate for?
Interesting.
MojaveHeld wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »MojaveHeld wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »MojaveHeld wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »The Cosmetic non combat pets have no clipping so dont affect anything.
I agree that Matriarchs need to go Roost somewhere while the player is in a town.
Can you clarify what you want a Pet Sorc to do in a town where there are quests that require combat, like Daggerfall, Orsinium, Vivec, etc?
Can you clarify what justice system Pet Sorcs should do when attacked by guards in towns, such as if they were trying to steal from safeboxes in areas near crafting stations or in crowded buildings like banks?
Do they just have to suck it up and lose access to that skill because it annoys people?
ESO really isn't built very well for a retroactive "Sorry, you can't have your Twilight (or scamp/bear) anymore" change. I would hope that ZOS can come up with a better solution to the issues with pets blocking cameras than just taking away combat abilities in towns.
I mean, the same thing necromancers have to do, I'd imagine.
Necromancers were designed that way.
That's not remotely the same as telling established classes "Sorry, you've been able to use this skill anywhere you like for 2 years/since launch, but now you can't."
That's not really true, at all. Necromancers aren't balanced around not being able to use some of their most important abilities in cities. They're simply forced to suck it up and deal with it, even though it makes things more difficult and less convenient for them. So taking away sorc pets in towns would hardly be unfair compared to that. In fact, it's a lesser amount of abilities for pet sorcs to lose access to in towns than necromancers already have to deal with it. And unlike with necros, there's actually a good gameplay reason to do it (the necro handicap is purely for rp reasons, disabling sorc pets in towns removes the obstacle they represent to other players). So, if anything, taking away sorc pets in towns would be far better gameplay design than what currently happens with necromancers. There are still plenty of valid reasons to be against what was proposed, but what you brought up isn't one of them.
My point was more that while Necromancers launched with a mechanic that deprives them of some of their skills, something that is made clear upfront from the beginning in the character screen at Elsweyr launch...
In contrast, Sorcs and Wardens have been able to use their pets whenever, wherever they like, since launch and since Morrowind, respectively. This would be a retroactive change for those classes and players, which is a clear difference from the necromancer situation. It requires removing existing functionality from two classes - not for "balance" reasons - purely because players are annoyed.
So the "but Necromancers..." excuse doesnt fly. A class that has restricted ability use from its launch is NOT the same as advocating for taking away abilities that two classes have been able to use whenever they want for 2+ and 5+ years.
I should hope that ZOS can come up with a better solution to pet collision and camera blocking than that.
So you’re saying the humble NPC’s of Tamriel wouldn’t take offence to plethora of daedra amongst them? Players will adapt, they always do. And it’ll be up front for new players
The humble NPCs of Tamriel didnt care in TES 3, TES 4 or TES 5, and they havent cared In ESO for 5 years, so that's a poor argument. I mean, TES IV Oblivion literally had daedra pouring out of the Deadlands, and no one batted an eye at what I summoned.
As for the rest, not only could you say the same the same about every single nerf in ESO, none of that is a good justification for taking away pet abilities we've been able to use wherever we liked for 5 years (Sorcs) or 2 years (Wardens) in areas where we can get into combat just because you are annoyed.
There's no "balance" reason for taking away those abilities in towns. Just a "QOL" improvement at the expense of every pet-using warden or sorc who gets into combat within town limits which is allowed and indeed encouraged by ESO's quests and justice system!
ZOS needs to find a better solution, one that doesnt involve taking away pets from Sorcs and Wardens in combat areas.
You keep saying this, but it's simply not true. How long you've been able to use them up to this point is 100%, totally and completely irrelevant. Every class has had to deal with a change they didn't like at some point. There is not a single thing specifically unfair about this proposed change to sorc pets in cities, they don't get to demand special treatment. If necros can deal with a harsher handicap in cities, pet sorcs don't get to scream that it's unfair to disable their pets in them, which has a much more valid justification to happen than for necros. Full stop. You can be against the proposal for other reasons, but this is not even close to a valid one. It has no merit, stop using it as an argument.
1. Necros have restrictions for lore reasons.
Summoners/Conjurers don't have that restriction in ESO or any other TES games.
2. Necros had their restrictions from their launch.
You advocate for taking away abilities Sorcs and Wardens have been able to use for years, in areas that ZOS designed for combat. That's a change at the expense of existing Sorc and Warden players, and yes, that's unfair - there is zero "balance" reasons for this, just player annoyance.
I see a pretty clear difference between a new class designed with restricted abilities vs calling for existing classes to be nerfed in certain combat areas because you are annoyed. Nor do I see any lore or balance reason why Sorcs and Wardens ought to be redesigned to match Necros!
I'm going to continue to argue that removing Sorc and Warden pets from towns is a terrible idea because it prevents Sorcs and Wardens from using combat pets in areas explicitly designed for combat, she, they've been able to do that for years. ZOS could come up much better solutions, and you know it.
ZOS could fix pet collision.
ZOS could fix pets blocking the camera.
ZOS could fix pet pathing.
ZOS could make it so pets have to be re-summoned if you want,to use them in town for quests or justice system content.
ZOS could even disable all combat near crafting stations/quest NPCs (would require removing justice system interactions) in order to justify turning off pets in those areas.
A flat removal of Sorc and Warden pets is the most unfair option ZOS could take...and yet its the one you advocate for?
Interesting.
Point 1 is false. Summoning daedra has rather negative connotations in TES Lore for most common folk. In other TES games, there is almost always no difference in their reactions between you summoning a daedra and you having a zombie thrall. Having necromancy trigger guards in ESO but not daedra do so doesn't have a basis in TES lore. Also, a lore reason is always inferior to a gameplay reason. The fact that sorc has both as justification for the proposed change whereas necro only has the former completely undermines your argument. If necros can deal with their restrictions in cities, sorcs cannot whine about their pet being removed in cities, especially when it's less impactful on their combat prowess than necro's restrictions are. There is no gray area here, this segment of your argument is 100% invalid. It's simply not a valid line of argument.
As to point 2, that's an entirely arbitrary distinction on your part. It's not something that actually has any meaning. Classes get changed all the time from what people already signed up for. So, if this is a type of restriction that any other class already has to deal with, there is no case whatsoever to be made that it's specifically unfair to that class. Because necros already deal with a restriction, sorcs therefore cannot legitimately claim that this proposed change is unfair to them. Whether it was that way from the beginning or not makes no difference to the legitimacy of that argument.
The reason I advocate for this specific change is because we know that it's the simplest one for ZOS to make. All the ones you advocate for are things that I don't necessarily think that ZOS could get right. But disabling sorc pets in cities, I'm confident they would, because it's similar to something already existing in the game.
I don't main a petsorc, but I do have one. My main ranged dps is also a magden. So I'm very aware personally what it's like to go into cities and have to unsummon them, or to fight without them. And I can say with certainty, I don't think disabling them in cities is unfair in any way. It's not, end of story. Everything you've argued has simply been favoritism for your preferred class. It has no base, and has displayed clear double standards. So if you're against the proposed change, be against it for legitimate reasons, not for invalid, hypocritical ones. Because constantly making arguments based on the latter does nothing to push meaningful discussion on the actual pros and cons of the proposal, it's simply a pointless derailing.
This has to be a troll post. OP is a registered forum member since 2015. There is no way he hasn't figured out the difference between a matriarch and a fluff pet in almost five years time.
VaranisArano wrote: »MojaveHeld wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »MojaveHeld wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »MojaveHeld wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »The Cosmetic non combat pets have no clipping so dont affect anything.
I agree that Matriarchs need to go Roost somewhere while the player is in a town.
Can you clarify what you want a Pet Sorc to do in a town where there are quests that require combat, like Daggerfall, Orsinium, Vivec, etc?
Can you clarify what justice system Pet Sorcs should do when attacked by guards in towns, such as if they were trying to steal from safeboxes in areas near crafting stations or in crowded buildings like banks?
Do they just have to suck it up and lose access to that skill because it annoys people?
ESO really isn't built very well for a retroactive "Sorry, you can't have your Twilight (or scamp/bear) anymore" change. I would hope that ZOS can come up with a better solution to the issues with pets blocking cameras than just taking away combat abilities in towns.
I mean, the same thing necromancers have to do, I'd imagine.
Necromancers were designed that way.
That's not remotely the same as telling established classes "Sorry, you've been able to use this skill anywhere you like for 2 years/since launch, but now you can't."
That's not really true, at all. Necromancers aren't balanced around not being able to use some of their most important abilities in cities. They're simply forced to suck it up and deal with it, even though it makes things more difficult and less convenient for them. So taking away sorc pets in towns would hardly be unfair compared to that. In fact, it's a lesser amount of abilities for pet sorcs to lose access to in towns than necromancers already have to deal with it. And unlike with necros, there's actually a good gameplay reason to do it (the necro handicap is purely for rp reasons, disabling sorc pets in towns removes the obstacle they represent to other players). So, if anything, taking away sorc pets in towns would be far better gameplay design than what currently happens with necromancers. There are still plenty of valid reasons to be against what was proposed, but what you brought up isn't one of them.
My point was more that while Necromancers launched with a mechanic that deprives them of some of their skills, something that is made clear upfront from the beginning in the character screen at Elsweyr launch...
In contrast, Sorcs and Wardens have been able to use their pets whenever, wherever they like, since launch and since Morrowind, respectively. This would be a retroactive change for those classes and players, which is a clear difference from the necromancer situation. It requires removing existing functionality from two classes - not for "balance" reasons - purely because players are annoyed.
So the "but Necromancers..." excuse doesnt fly. A class that has restricted ability use from its launch is NOT the same as advocating for taking away abilities that two classes have been able to use whenever they want for 2+ and 5+ years.
I should hope that ZOS can come up with a better solution to pet collision and camera blocking than that.
So you’re saying the humble NPC’s of Tamriel wouldn’t take offence to plethora of daedra amongst them? Players will adapt, they always do. And it’ll be up front for new players
The humble NPCs of Tamriel didnt care in TES 3, TES 4 or TES 5, and they havent cared In ESO for 5 years, so that's a poor argument. I mean, TES IV Oblivion literally had daedra pouring out of the Deadlands, and no one batted an eye at what I summoned.
As for the rest, not only could you say the same the same about every single nerf in ESO, none of that is a good justification for taking away pet abilities we've been able to use wherever we liked for 5 years (Sorcs) or 2 years (Wardens) in areas where we can get into combat just because you are annoyed.
There's no "balance" reason for taking away those abilities in towns. Just a "QOL" improvement at the expense of every pet-using warden or sorc who gets into combat within town limits which is allowed and indeed encouraged by ESO's quests and justice system!
ZOS needs to find a better solution, one that doesnt involve taking away pets from Sorcs and Wardens in combat areas.
You keep saying this, but it's simply not true. How long you've been able to use them up to this point is 100%, totally and completely irrelevant. Every class has had to deal with a change they didn't like at some point. There is not a single thing specifically unfair about this proposed change to sorc pets in cities, they don't get to demand special treatment. If necros can deal with a harsher handicap in cities, pet sorcs don't get to scream that it's unfair to disable their pets in them, which has a much more valid justification to happen than for necros. Full stop. You can be against the proposal for other reasons, but this is not even close to a valid one. It has no merit, stop using it as an argument.
1. Necros have restrictions for lore reasons.
Summoners/Conjurers don't have that restriction in ESO or any other TES games.
2. Necros had their restrictions from their launch.
You advocate for taking away abilities Sorcs and Wardens have been able to use for years, in areas that ZOS designed for combat. That's a change at the expense of existing Sorc and Warden players, and yes, that's unfair - there is zero "balance" reasons for this, just player annoyance.
I see a pretty clear difference between a new class designed with restricted abilities vs calling for existing classes to be nerfed in certain combat areas because you are annoyed. Nor do I see any lore or balance reason why Sorcs and Wardens ought to be redesigned to match Necros!
I'm going to continue to argue that removing Sorc and Warden pets from towns is a terrible idea because it prevents Sorcs and Wardens from using combat pets in areas explicitly designed for combat, she, they've been able to do that for years. ZOS could come up much better solutions, and you know it.
ZOS could fix pet collision.
ZOS could fix pets blocking the camera.
ZOS could fix pet pathing.
ZOS could make it so pets have to be re-summoned if you want,to use them in town for quests or justice system content.
ZOS could even disable all combat near crafting stations/quest NPCs (would require removing justice system interactions) in order to justify turning off pets in those areas.
A flat removal of Sorc and Warden pets is the most unfair option ZOS could take...and yet its the one you advocate for?
Interesting.
Point 1 is false. Summoning daedra has rather negative connotations in TES Lore for most common folk. In other TES games, there is almost always no difference in their reactions between you summoning a daedra and you having a zombie thrall. Having necromancy trigger guards in ESO but not daedra do so doesn't have a basis in TES lore. Also, a lore reason is always inferior to a gameplay reason. The fact that sorc has both as justification for the proposed change whereas necro only has the former completely undermines your argument. If necros can deal with their restrictions in cities, sorcs cannot whine about their pet being removed in cities, especially when it's less impactful on their combat prowess than necro's restrictions are. There is no gray area here, this segment of your argument is 100% invalid. It's simply not a valid line of argument.
As to point 2, that's an entirely arbitrary distinction on your part. It's not something that actually has any meaning. Classes get changed all the time from what people already signed up for. So, if this is a type of restriction that any other class already has to deal with, there is no case whatsoever to be made that it's specifically unfair to that class. Because necros already deal with a restriction, sorcs therefore cannot legitimately claim that this proposed change is unfair to them. Whether it was that way from the beginning or not makes no difference to the legitimacy of that argument.
The reason I advocate for this specific change is because we know that it's the simplest one for ZOS to make. All the ones you advocate for are things that I don't necessarily think that ZOS could get right. But disabling sorc pets in cities, I'm confident they would, because it's similar to something already existing in the game.
I don't main a petsorc, but I do have one. My main ranged dps is also a magden. So I'm very aware personally what it's like to go into cities and have to unsummon them, or to fight without them. And I can say with certainty, I don't think disabling them in cities is unfair in any way. It's not, end of story. Everything you've argued has simply been favoritism for your preferred class. It has no base, and has displayed clear double standards. So if you're against the proposed change, be against it for legitimate reasons, not for invalid, hypocritical ones. Because constantly making arguments based on the latter does nothing to push meaningful discussion on the actual pros and cons of the proposal, it's simply a pointless derailing.
I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree, because, well, I disagree with your points.
You want Sorcs and Wardens to be redesigned to work effectively the same way as Necromancers, and I disagree.
Necromancers had restricted abilities from the beginning and no one playing necromancer expected anything different, whereas, under your suggestion:
Sorcs and Wardens lose the ability to use their pets in towns like Daggerfall, Vulkhel Guard, Davon's Watch, Vivec, Orsinium, etc. where there are quests that require combat.
Sorcs and Wardens lose the ability to use their pets to defend/heal themselves in justice system situations, and yeah, ZOS put safeboxes near crafting stations.
Sorcs and Wardens lose the ability to duel in towns.
Unlike Necromancers, who never had the option to use those abilities without fines, your suggestion takes away functionality from Sorc and Warden players for no better reason than you are annoyed by pets. That's quite a few losses for Sorcs and Wardens when there's no balance reason or lore reason for their summoned pets not be allowed in towns.
So yes, I have a problem with that, as a MagDK main. And oddly enough, I have more faith in ZOS than you that they can figured out a solution that doesnt involve Sorcs and Wardens losing access to pets in town quests, town dueling, and town justice system activities.
Ultinately, I suspect we're going to have to agree to disagree. However, if you want to continue, please take this discussion as one I'm having in good faith, neither trying to be hypocritical nor favoring "my class" (which, shockingly, it isn't.) If you can't accept that I disagree with you in all good faith, then I'm not interested in continuing to discuss this with you.
MojaveHeld wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »MojaveHeld wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »MojaveHeld wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »Bobby_V_Rockit wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »MojaveHeld wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »The Cosmetic non combat pets have no clipping so dont affect anything.
I agree that Matriarchs need to go Roost somewhere while the player is in a town.
Can you clarify what you want a Pet Sorc to do in a town where there are quests that require combat, like Daggerfall, Orsinium, Vivec, etc?
Can you clarify what justice system Pet Sorcs should do when attacked by guards in towns, such as if they were trying to steal from safeboxes in areas near crafting stations or in crowded buildings like banks?
Do they just have to suck it up and lose access to that skill because it annoys people?
ESO really isn't built very well for a retroactive "Sorry, you can't have your Twilight (or scamp/bear) anymore" change. I would hope that ZOS can come up with a better solution to the issues with pets blocking cameras than just taking away combat abilities in towns.
I mean, the same thing necromancers have to do, I'd imagine.
Necromancers were designed that way.
That's not remotely the same as telling established classes "Sorry, you've been able to use this skill anywhere you like for 2 years/since launch, but now you can't."
That's not really true, at all. Necromancers aren't balanced around not being able to use some of their most important abilities in cities. They're simply forced to suck it up and deal with it, even though it makes things more difficult and less convenient for them. So taking away sorc pets in towns would hardly be unfair compared to that. In fact, it's a lesser amount of abilities for pet sorcs to lose access to in towns than necromancers already have to deal with it. And unlike with necros, there's actually a good gameplay reason to do it (the necro handicap is purely for rp reasons, disabling sorc pets in towns removes the obstacle they represent to other players). So, if anything, taking away sorc pets in towns would be far better gameplay design than what currently happens with necromancers. There are still plenty of valid reasons to be against what was proposed, but what you brought up isn't one of them.
My point was more that while Necromancers launched with a mechanic that deprives them of some of their skills, something that is made clear upfront from the beginning in the character screen at Elsweyr launch...
In contrast, Sorcs and Wardens have been able to use their pets whenever, wherever they like, since launch and since Morrowind, respectively. This would be a retroactive change for those classes and players, which is a clear difference from the necromancer situation. It requires removing existing functionality from two classes - not for "balance" reasons - purely because players are annoyed.
So the "but Necromancers..." excuse doesnt fly. A class that has restricted ability use from its launch is NOT the same as advocating for taking away abilities that two classes have been able to use whenever they want for 2+ and 5+ years.
I should hope that ZOS can come up with a better solution to pet collision and camera blocking than that.
So you’re saying the humble NPC’s of Tamriel wouldn’t take offence to plethora of daedra amongst them? Players will adapt, they always do. And it’ll be up front for new players
The humble NPCs of Tamriel didnt care in TES 3, TES 4 or TES 5, and they havent cared In ESO for 5 years, so that's a poor argument. I mean, TES IV Oblivion literally had daedra pouring out of the Deadlands, and no one batted an eye at what I summoned.
As for the rest, not only could you say the same the same about every single nerf in ESO, none of that is a good justification for taking away pet abilities we've been able to use wherever we liked for 5 years (Sorcs) or 2 years (Wardens) in areas where we can get into combat just because you are annoyed.
There's no "balance" reason for taking away those abilities in towns. Just a "QOL" improvement at the expense of every pet-using warden or sorc who gets into combat within town limits which is allowed and indeed encouraged by ESO's quests and justice system!
ZOS needs to find a better solution, one that doesnt involve taking away pets from Sorcs and Wardens in combat areas.
You keep saying this, but it's simply not true. How long you've been able to use them up to this point is 100%, totally and completely irrelevant. Every class has had to deal with a change they didn't like at some point. There is not a single thing specifically unfair about this proposed change to sorc pets in cities, they don't get to demand special treatment. If necros can deal with a harsher handicap in cities, pet sorcs don't get to scream that it's unfair to disable their pets in them, which has a much more valid justification to happen than for necros. Full stop. You can be against the proposal for other reasons, but this is not even close to a valid one. It has no merit, stop using it as an argument.
1. Necros have restrictions for lore reasons.
Summoners/Conjurers don't have that restriction in ESO or any other TES games.
2. Necros had their restrictions from their launch.
You advocate for taking away abilities Sorcs and Wardens have been able to use for years, in areas that ZOS designed for combat. That's a change at the expense of existing Sorc and Warden players, and yes, that's unfair - there is zero "balance" reasons for this, just player annoyance.
I see a pretty clear difference between a new class designed with restricted abilities vs calling for existing classes to be nerfed in certain combat areas because you are annoyed. Nor do I see any lore or balance reason why Sorcs and Wardens ought to be redesigned to match Necros!
I'm going to continue to argue that removing Sorc and Warden pets from towns is a terrible idea because it prevents Sorcs and Wardens from using combat pets in areas explicitly designed for combat, she, they've been able to do that for years. ZOS could come up much better solutions, and you know it.
ZOS could fix pet collision.
ZOS could fix pets blocking the camera.
ZOS could fix pet pathing.
ZOS could make it so pets have to be re-summoned if you want,to use them in town for quests or justice system content.
ZOS could even disable all combat near crafting stations/quest NPCs (would require removing justice system interactions) in order to justify turning off pets in those areas.
A flat removal of Sorc and Warden pets is the most unfair option ZOS could take...and yet its the one you advocate for?
Interesting.
Point 1 is false. Summoning daedra has rather negative connotations in TES Lore for most common folk. In other TES games, there is almost always no difference in their reactions between you summoning a daedra and you having a zombie thrall. Having necromancy trigger guards in ESO but not daedra do so doesn't have a basis in TES lore. Also, a lore reason is always inferior to a gameplay reason. The fact that sorc has both as justification for the proposed change whereas necro only has the former completely undermines your argument. If necros can deal with their restrictions in cities, sorcs cannot whine about their pet being removed in cities, especially when it's less impactful on their combat prowess than necro's restrictions are. There is no gray area here, this segment of your argument is 100% invalid. It's simply not a valid line of argument.
As to point 2, that's an entirely arbitrary distinction on your part. It's not something that actually has any meaning. Classes get changed all the time from what people already signed up for. So, if this is a type of restriction that any other class already has to deal with, there is no case whatsoever to be made that it's specifically unfair to that class. Because necros already deal with a restriction, sorcs therefore cannot legitimately claim that this proposed change is unfair to them. Whether it was that way from the beginning or not makes no difference to the legitimacy of that argument.
The reason I advocate for this specific change is because we know that it's the simplest one for ZOS to make. All the ones you advocate for are things that I don't necessarily think that ZOS could get right. But disabling sorc pets in cities, I'm confident they would, because it's similar to something already existing in the game.
I don't main a petsorc, but I do have one. My main ranged dps is also a magden. So I'm very aware personally what it's like to go into cities and have to unsummon them, or to fight without them. And I can say with certainty, I don't think disabling them in cities is unfair in any way. It's not, end of story. Everything you've argued has simply been favoritism for your preferred class. It has no base, and has displayed clear double standards. So if you're against the proposed change, be against it for legitimate reasons, not for invalid, hypocritical ones. Because constantly making arguments based on the latter does nothing to push meaningful discussion on the actual pros and cons of the proposal, it's simply a pointless derailing.
I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree, because, well, I disagree with your points.
You want Sorcs and Wardens to be redesigned to work effectively the same way as Necromancers, and I disagree.
Necromancers had restricted abilities from the beginning and no one playing necromancer expected anything different, whereas, under your suggestion:
Sorcs and Wardens lose the ability to use their pets in towns like Daggerfall, Vulkhel Guard, Davon's Watch, Vivec, Orsinium, etc. where there are quests that require combat.
Sorcs and Wardens lose the ability to use their pets to defend/heal themselves in justice system situations, and yeah, ZOS put safeboxes near crafting stations.
Sorcs and Wardens lose the ability to duel in towns.
Unlike Necromancers, who never had the option to use those abilities without fines, your suggestion takes away functionality from Sorc and Warden players for no better reason than you are annoyed by pets. That's quite a few losses for Sorcs and Wardens when there's no balance reason or lore reason for their summoned pets not be allowed in towns.
So yes, I have a problem with that, as a MagDK main. And oddly enough, I have more faith in ZOS than you that they can figured out a solution that doesnt involve Sorcs and Wardens losing access to pets in town quests, town dueling, and town justice system activities.
Ultinately, I suspect we're going to have to agree to disagree. However, if you want to continue, please take this discussion as one I'm having in good faith, neither trying to be hypocritical nor favoring "my class" (which, shockingly, it isn't.) If you can't accept that I disagree with you in all good faith, then I'm not interested in continuing to discuss this with you.
We can disagree, but not on that bolded part. I pointed out already that there is no lore reason to ban necro abilities but not daedric summons. The only case to be made lorewise is either for banning both in cities, or banning neither. So since necro ones are banned, there's a perfect case to be made for banning sorc pets for the same reason. Plus, ability to use the gameplay mechanics in the game without being blocked by another player's summons is a balance reason. There are more valid reasons to ban sorc pets in cities than there are to ban certain necro abilities, and the fact that the latter exists means that talking about doing the former cannot in any way be unfair to sorcs.
And yeah, we are absolutely gonna have to disagree on sorcs losing access to their pets in cities somehow being worse than necro not being able to use some of their abilities from the start. Whether it existed that way in the first place or was changed to be that way is totally irrelevant, so no arguments based on it are even slightly reasonable. There's no way to address something that stems at its base from faulty logic.
I apologize for calling you hypocritical, the fact that you claimed necro had clear lore reasons for the restrictions but summoning daedra didn't was so patently false that I assumed it could only be made as a double-standard, out of hypocrisy that you wanted special treatment for pet sorcs. So yeah, that claim alone made it look like you weren't arguing in good faith.
That's why I assumed you were a petsorc main, because you used a blatantly false claim to support special treatment for petsorcs. Doing that made it look like you weren't interested in honest discussion on the topic, and just wanted to derail it. Turns out you did want a genuine discussion on the matter, but knowingly using inaccurate points makes that difficult.
AcadianPaladin wrote: »It is so hard to legislate or enforce courtesy. Any summon user who has been playing for any time knows full well they can be annoying in congested areas/vendors/banks/crafting stations and therefore thoughtfully dismisses them. I confess I'm amazed how much simpler and cleaner this is with the addon 'Pet Dismiss'. My point about the addon is not to tease my friends who don't play on PC but to emphasize that ZOS really should make this simple one hot key press an option in the basic game. That is something unobtrusive that could help at least some. Less players in the same instance might also help.
Console design, the controllers have only a few buttons hence everything's contextual now and same prompts have different functions depending on the situation. Bloody peasants.SteveCampsOut wrote: »AcadianPaladin wrote: »It is so hard to legislate or enforce courtesy. Any summon user who has been playing for any time knows full well they can be annoying in congested areas/vendors/banks/crafting stations and therefore thoughtfully dismisses them. I confess I'm amazed how much simpler and cleaner this is with the addon 'Pet Dismiss'. My point about the addon is not to tease my friends who don't play on PC but to emphasize that ZOS really should make this simple one hot key press an option in the basic game. That is something unobtrusive that could help at least some. Less players in the same instance might also help.
ZOS Screwed the pooch when they made hitting the pet key a 2nd time an attack instead of a despawn like it originally was.
VaranisArano wrote: »The Cosmetic non combat pets have no clipping so dont affect anything.
I agree that Matriarchs need to go Roost somewhere while the player is in a town.
Can you clarify what you want a Pet Sorc to do in a town where there are quests that require combat, like Daggerfall, Orsinium, Vivec, etc?
Can you clarify what justice system Pet Sorcs should do when attacked by guards in towns, such as if they were trying to steal from safeboxes in areas near crafting stations or in crowded buildings like banks?
Do they just have to suck it up and lose access to that skill because it annoys people?
ESO really isn't built very well for a retroactive "Sorry, you can't have your Twilight (or scamp/bear) anymore" change. I would hope that ZOS can come up with a better solution to the issues with pets blocking cameras than just taking away combat abilities in towns.
StytchFingal wrote: »VaranisArano wrote: »The Cosmetic non combat pets have no clipping so dont affect anything.
I agree that Matriarchs need to go Roost somewhere while the player is in a town.
Can you clarify what you want a Pet Sorc to do in a town where there are quests that require combat, like Daggerfall, Orsinium, Vivec, etc?
Can you clarify what justice system Pet Sorcs should do when attacked by guards in towns, such as if they were trying to steal from safeboxes in areas near crafting stations or in crowded buildings like banks?
Do they just have to suck it up and lose access to that skill because it annoys people?
ESO really isn't built very well for a retroactive "Sorry, you can't have your Twilight (or scamp/bear) anymore" change. I would hope that ZOS can come up with a better solution to the issues with pets blocking cameras than just taking away combat abilities in towns.
A pet is not needed for any overland content short of a world boss.
A pet ain't gonna save anyone from a guard. All that saves you from guards are distancing, cc breaks, jumping off a bridge, wall, ledge etc, and zone changing either via door or wayshrine.
Edited to add: Btw, I ain't advocating for ZoS to not allow pets in towns. Just saying they ain't necessary, and that I wish more players would do as myself and a few others do: put them away. It's very easy on PC, at least; there is an addon called Pet Dismiss which allows a keybind to get rid of them immediately. I use it all the time.
Having them land would resolve the issue and be very cute.The Cosmetic non combat pets have no clipping so dont affect anything.
I agree that Matriarchs need to go Roost somewhere while the player is in a town.
They could walk but will fly if you run then settle down.
They would land as idle animation outside of dungeons, trial and similar. The healing would still work if grounded.