The why of pets?

  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
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    MojaveHeld wrote: »
    Kel wrote: »
    Nestor wrote: »
    The Cosmetic non combat pets have no clipping so dont affect anything.

    I agree that Matriarchs need to go Roost somewhere while the player is in a town.

    Can you clarify what you want a Pet Sorc to do in a town where there are quests that require combat, like Daggerfall, Orsinium, Vivec, etc?

    Can you clarify what justice system Pet Sorcs should do when attacked by guards in towns, such as if they were trying to steal from safeboxes in areas near crafting stations or in crowded buildings like banks?

    Do they just have to suck it up and lose access to that skill because it annoys people?

    ESO really isn't built very well for a retroactive "Sorry, you can't have your Twilight (or scamp/bear) anymore" change. I would hope that ZOS can come up with a better solution to the issues with pets blocking cameras than just taking away combat abilities in towns.

    I mean, the same thing necromancers have to do, I'd imagine.

    Necromancers were designed that way.

    That's not remotely the same as telling established classes "Sorry, you've been able to use this skill anywhere you like for 2 years/since launch, but now you can't."

    That's not really true, at all. Necromancers aren't balanced around not being able to use some of their most important abilities in cities. They're simply forced to suck it up and deal with it, even though it makes things more difficult and less convenient for them. So taking away sorc pets in towns would hardly be unfair compared to that. In fact, it's a lesser amount of abilities for pet sorcs to lose access to in towns than necromancers already have to deal with it. And unlike with necros, there's actually a good gameplay reason to do it (the necro handicap is purely for rp reasons, disabling sorc pets in towns removes the obstacle they represent to other players). So, if anything, taking away sorc pets in towns would be far better gameplay design than what currently happens with necromancers. There are still plenty of valid reasons to be against what was proposed, but what you brought up isn't one of them.

    My point was more that while Necromancers launched with a mechanic that deprives them of some of their skills, something that is made clear upfront from the beginning in the character screen at Elsweyr launch...

    In contrast, Sorcs and Wardens have been able to use their pets whenever, wherever they like, since launch and since Morrowind, respectively. This would be a retroactive change for those classes and players, which is a clear difference from the necromancer situation. It requires removing existing functionality from two classes - not for "balance" reasons - purely because players are annoyed.

    So the "but Necromancers..." excuse doesnt fly. A class that has restricted ability use from its launch is NOT the same as advocating for taking away abilities that two classes have been able to use whenever they want for 2+ and 5+ years.

    I should hope that ZOS can come up with a better solution to pet collision and camera blocking than that.

    So you’re saying the humble NPC’s of Tamriel wouldn’t take offence to plethora of daedra amongst them? Players will adapt, they always do. And it’ll be up front for new players

    The humble NPCs of Tamriel didnt care in TES 3, TES 4 or TES 5, and they havent cared In ESO for 5 years, so that's a poor argument. I mean, TES IV Oblivion literally had daedra pouring out of the Deadlands, and no one batted an eye at what I summoned.

    As for the rest, not only could you say the same the same about every single nerf in ESO, none of that is a good justification for taking away pet abilities we've been able to use wherever we liked for 5 years (Sorcs) or 2 years (Wardens) in areas where we can get into combat just because you are annoyed.

    There's no "balance" reason for taking away those abilities in towns. Just a "QOL" improvement at the expense of every pet-using warden or sorc who gets into combat within town limits which is allowed and indeed encouraged by ESO's quests and justice system!

    ZOS needs to find a better solution, one that doesnt involve taking away pets from Sorcs and Wardens in combat areas.
  • zvavi
    zvavi
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    therift wrote: »
    Sorc, Warden, Necromancers, and Nightblades all have hirelings, i.e., combat pets.

    All players have access to the Banker, Merchant, and Smuggler hireling.

    I mean, with the current patch notes the bird will be cosmetic at best as well :3
  • idk
    idk
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    That Twilight Matriarch you are complaining about IS a combat pet.

    Go play a Pet Sorc or a Warden and then tell us how they are "cosmetic at best."

    Yea, I had to read the OP a couple times to make sure I read it correctly. At first I thought they were talking about the mudcrab pet. They seemed rather confused.
    Really, idk
  • Hazurko_RaShan
    Hazurko_RaShan
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    Nightblades have a pet?


    Hazur = word. -ko = Female specific. Wizard, scholar, or healer. Ra'Shan = tree (literally big plant)


    https://www.taagra.com/translator.php
  • MojaveHeld
    MojaveHeld
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    Nightblades have a pet?

    Yes, technically. The shade functions the same way as a temporary combat pet.
  • idk
    idk
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    Nightblades have a pet?

    Shades.
    Really, idk
  • idk
    idk
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    MojaveHeld wrote: »
    Kel wrote: »
    Nestor wrote: »
    The Cosmetic non combat pets have no clipping so dont affect anything.

    I agree that Matriarchs need to go Roost somewhere while the player is in a town.

    Can you clarify what you want a Pet Sorc to do in a town where there are quests that require combat, like Daggerfall, Orsinium, Vivec, etc?

    Can you clarify what justice system Pet Sorcs should do when attacked by guards in towns, such as if they were trying to steal from safeboxes in areas near crafting stations or in crowded buildings like banks?

    Do they just have to suck it up and lose access to that skill because it annoys people?

    ESO really isn't built very well for a retroactive "Sorry, you can't have your Twilight (or scamp/bear) anymore" change. I would hope that ZOS can come up with a better solution to the issues with pets blocking cameras than just taking away combat abilities in towns.

    I mean, the same thing necromancers have to do, I'd imagine.

    Necromancers were designed that way.

    That's not remotely the same as telling established classes "Sorry, you've been able to use this skill anywhere you like for 2 years/since launch, but now you can't."

    That's not really true, at all. Necromancers aren't balanced around not being able to use some of their most important abilities in cities. They're simply forced to suck it up and deal with it, even though it makes things more difficult and less convenient for them. So taking away sorc pets in towns would hardly be unfair compared to that. In fact, it's a lesser amount of abilities for pet sorcs to lose access to in towns than necromancers already have to deal with it. And unlike with necros, there's actually a good gameplay reason to do it (the necro handicap is purely for rp reasons, disabling sorc pets in towns removes the obstacle they represent to other players). So, if anything, taking away sorc pets in towns would be far better gameplay design than what currently happens with necromancers. There are still plenty of valid reasons to be against what was proposed, but what you brought up isn't one of them.

    My point was more that while Necromancers launched with a mechanic that deprives them of some of their skills, something that is made clear upfront from the beginning in the character screen at Elsweyr launch...

    In contrast, Sorcs and Wardens have been able to use their pets whenever, wherever they like, since launch and since Morrowind, respectively. This would be a retroactive change for those classes and players, which is a clear difference from the necromancer situation. It requires removing existing functionality from two classes - not for "balance" reasons - purely because players are annoyed.

    So the "but Necromancers..." excuse doesnt fly. A class that has restricted ability use from its launch is NOT the same as advocating for taking away abilities that two classes have been able to use whenever they want for 2+ and 5+ years.

    I should hope that ZOS can come up with a better solution to pet collision and camera blocking than that.

    So you’re saying the humble NPC’s of Tamriel wouldn’t take offence to plethora of daedra amongst them? Players will adapt, they always do. And it’ll be up front for new players

    Those NPCs have yet to take issue with the Sorcs daedic pets since the game launched so your foundation here seems to be flawed. Heck, they seem down right fine when I see sorc pets walk by them.
    Really, idk
  • SidraWillowsky
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    Nightblades have a pet?

    The Shade technically counts as a pet- the necropotence set will "activate" when it's up, though unfortunately you need to be in combat to do it.

    Honestly, I hate that I'm basically forced to use the bear as a magden if I want to max my DPS. I unsummon it in towns but I'd rather just have a cheap, decent ulti than have Yogi have to come everywhere with me.
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
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    MojaveHeld wrote: »
    MojaveHeld wrote: »
    Kel wrote: »
    Nestor wrote: »
    The Cosmetic non combat pets have no clipping so dont affect anything.

    I agree that Matriarchs need to go Roost somewhere while the player is in a town.

    Can you clarify what you want a Pet Sorc to do in a town where there are quests that require combat, like Daggerfall, Orsinium, Vivec, etc?

    Can you clarify what justice system Pet Sorcs should do when attacked by guards in towns, such as if they were trying to steal from safeboxes in areas near crafting stations or in crowded buildings like banks?

    Do they just have to suck it up and lose access to that skill because it annoys people?

    ESO really isn't built very well for a retroactive "Sorry, you can't have your Twilight (or scamp/bear) anymore" change. I would hope that ZOS can come up with a better solution to the issues with pets blocking cameras than just taking away combat abilities in towns.

    I mean, the same thing necromancers have to do, I'd imagine.

    Necromancers were designed that way.

    That's not remotely the same as telling established classes "Sorry, you've been able to use this skill anywhere you like for 2 years/since launch, but now you can't."

    That's not really true, at all. Necromancers aren't balanced around not being able to use some of their most important abilities in cities. They're simply forced to suck it up and deal with it, even though it makes things more difficult and less convenient for them. So taking away sorc pets in towns would hardly be unfair compared to that. In fact, it's a lesser amount of abilities for pet sorcs to lose access to in towns than necromancers already have to deal with it. And unlike with necros, there's actually a good gameplay reason to do it (the necro handicap is purely for rp reasons, disabling sorc pets in towns removes the obstacle they represent to other players). So, if anything, taking away sorc pets in towns would be far better gameplay design than what currently happens with necromancers. There are still plenty of valid reasons to be against what was proposed, but what you brought up isn't one of them.

    My point was more that while Necromancers launched with a mechanic that deprives them of some of their skills, something that is made clear upfront from the beginning in the character screen at Elsweyr launch...

    In contrast, Sorcs and Wardens have been able to use their pets whenever, wherever they like, since launch and since Morrowind, respectively. This would be a retroactive change for those classes and players, which is a clear difference from the necromancer situation. It requires removing existing functionality from two classes - not for "balance" reasons - purely because players are annoyed.

    So the "but Necromancers..." excuse doesnt fly. A class that has restricted ability use from its launch is NOT the same as advocating for taking away abilities that two classes have been able to use whenever they want for 2+ and 5+ years.

    I should hope that ZOS can come up with a better solution to pet collision and camera blocking than that.

    So you’re saying the humble NPC’s of Tamriel wouldn’t take offence to plethora of daedra amongst them? Players will adapt, they always do. And it’ll be up front for new players

    The humble NPCs of Tamriel didnt care in TES 3, TES 4 or TES 5, and they havent cared In ESO for 5 years, so that's a poor argument. I mean, TES IV Oblivion literally had daedra pouring out of the Deadlands, and no one batted an eye at what I summoned.

    As for the rest, not only could you say the same the same about every single nerf in ESO, none of that is a good justification for taking away pet abilities we've been able to use wherever we liked for 5 years (Sorcs) or 2 years (Wardens) in areas where we can get into combat just because you are annoyed.

    There's no "balance" reason for taking away those abilities in towns. Just a "QOL" improvement at the expense of every pet-using warden or sorc who gets into combat within town limits which is allowed and indeed encouraged by ESO's quests and justice system!

    ZOS needs to find a better solution, one that doesnt involve taking away pets from Sorcs and Wardens in combat areas.

    You keep saying this, but it's simply not true. How long you've been able to use them up to this point is 100%, totally and completely irrelevant. Every class has had to deal with a change they didn't like at some point. There is not a single thing specifically unfair about this proposed change to sorc pets in cities, they don't get to demand special treatment. If necros can deal with a harsher handicap in cities, pet sorcs don't get to scream that it's unfair to disable their pets in them, which has a much more valid justification to happen than for necros. Full stop. You can be against the proposal for other reasons, but this is not even close to a valid one. It has no merit, stop using it as an argument.


    1. Necros have restrictions for lore reasons.
    Summoners/Conjurers don't have that restriction in ESO or any other TES games.

    2. Necros had their restrictions from their launch.
    You advocate for taking away abilities Sorcs and Wardens have been able to use for years, in areas that ZOS designed for combat. That's a change at the expense of existing Sorc and Warden players, and yes, that's unfair - there is zero "balance" reasons for this, just player annoyance.


    I see a pretty clear difference between a new class designed with restricted abilities vs calling for existing classes to be nerfed in certain combat areas because you are annoyed. Nor do I see any lore or balance reason why Sorcs and Wardens ought to be redesigned to match Necros!



    I'm going to continue to argue that removing Sorc and Warden pets from towns is a terrible idea because it prevents Sorcs and Wardens from using combat pets in areas explicitly designed for combat, she, they've been able to do that for years. ZOS could come up much better solutions, and you know it.

    ZOS could fix pet collision.
    ZOS could fix pets blocking the camera.
    ZOS could fix pet pathing.
    ZOS could make it so pets have to be re-summoned if you want,to use them in town for quests or justice system content.
    ZOS could even disable all combat near crafting stations/quest NPCs (would require removing justice system interactions) in order to justify turning off pets in those areas.

    A flat removal of Sorc and Warden pets is the most unfair option ZOS could take...and yet its the one you advocate for?

    Interesting.
  • MojaveHeld
    MojaveHeld
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    MojaveHeld wrote: »
    MojaveHeld wrote: »
    Kel wrote: »
    Nestor wrote: »
    The Cosmetic non combat pets have no clipping so dont affect anything.

    I agree that Matriarchs need to go Roost somewhere while the player is in a town.

    Can you clarify what you want a Pet Sorc to do in a town where there are quests that require combat, like Daggerfall, Orsinium, Vivec, etc?

    Can you clarify what justice system Pet Sorcs should do when attacked by guards in towns, such as if they were trying to steal from safeboxes in areas near crafting stations or in crowded buildings like banks?

    Do they just have to suck it up and lose access to that skill because it annoys people?

    ESO really isn't built very well for a retroactive "Sorry, you can't have your Twilight (or scamp/bear) anymore" change. I would hope that ZOS can come up with a better solution to the issues with pets blocking cameras than just taking away combat abilities in towns.

    I mean, the same thing necromancers have to do, I'd imagine.

    Necromancers were designed that way.

    That's not remotely the same as telling established classes "Sorry, you've been able to use this skill anywhere you like for 2 years/since launch, but now you can't."

    That's not really true, at all. Necromancers aren't balanced around not being able to use some of their most important abilities in cities. They're simply forced to suck it up and deal with it, even though it makes things more difficult and less convenient for them. So taking away sorc pets in towns would hardly be unfair compared to that. In fact, it's a lesser amount of abilities for pet sorcs to lose access to in towns than necromancers already have to deal with it. And unlike with necros, there's actually a good gameplay reason to do it (the necro handicap is purely for rp reasons, disabling sorc pets in towns removes the obstacle they represent to other players). So, if anything, taking away sorc pets in towns would be far better gameplay design than what currently happens with necromancers. There are still plenty of valid reasons to be against what was proposed, but what you brought up isn't one of them.

    My point was more that while Necromancers launched with a mechanic that deprives them of some of their skills, something that is made clear upfront from the beginning in the character screen at Elsweyr launch...

    In contrast, Sorcs and Wardens have been able to use their pets whenever, wherever they like, since launch and since Morrowind, respectively. This would be a retroactive change for those classes and players, which is a clear difference from the necromancer situation. It requires removing existing functionality from two classes - not for "balance" reasons - purely because players are annoyed.

    So the "but Necromancers..." excuse doesnt fly. A class that has restricted ability use from its launch is NOT the same as advocating for taking away abilities that two classes have been able to use whenever they want for 2+ and 5+ years.

    I should hope that ZOS can come up with a better solution to pet collision and camera blocking than that.

    So you’re saying the humble NPC’s of Tamriel wouldn’t take offence to plethora of daedra amongst them? Players will adapt, they always do. And it’ll be up front for new players

    The humble NPCs of Tamriel didnt care in TES 3, TES 4 or TES 5, and they havent cared In ESO for 5 years, so that's a poor argument. I mean, TES IV Oblivion literally had daedra pouring out of the Deadlands, and no one batted an eye at what I summoned.

    As for the rest, not only could you say the same the same about every single nerf in ESO, none of that is a good justification for taking away pet abilities we've been able to use wherever we liked for 5 years (Sorcs) or 2 years (Wardens) in areas where we can get into combat just because you are annoyed.

    There's no "balance" reason for taking away those abilities in towns. Just a "QOL" improvement at the expense of every pet-using warden or sorc who gets into combat within town limits which is allowed and indeed encouraged by ESO's quests and justice system!

    ZOS needs to find a better solution, one that doesnt involve taking away pets from Sorcs and Wardens in combat areas.

    You keep saying this, but it's simply not true. How long you've been able to use them up to this point is 100%, totally and completely irrelevant. Every class has had to deal with a change they didn't like at some point. There is not a single thing specifically unfair about this proposed change to sorc pets in cities, they don't get to demand special treatment. If necros can deal with a harsher handicap in cities, pet sorcs don't get to scream that it's unfair to disable their pets in them, which has a much more valid justification to happen than for necros. Full stop. You can be against the proposal for other reasons, but this is not even close to a valid one. It has no merit, stop using it as an argument.


    1. Necros have restrictions for lore reasons.
    Summoners/Conjurers don't have that restriction in ESO or any other TES games.

    2. Necros had their restrictions from their launch.
    You advocate for taking away abilities Sorcs and Wardens have been able to use for years, in areas that ZOS designed for combat. That's a change at the expense of existing Sorc and Warden players, and yes, that's unfair - there is zero "balance" reasons for this, just player annoyance.


    I see a pretty clear difference between a new class designed with restricted abilities vs calling for existing classes to be nerfed in certain combat areas because you are annoyed. Nor do I see any lore or balance reason why Sorcs and Wardens ought to be redesigned to match Necros!



    I'm going to continue to argue that removing Sorc and Warden pets from towns is a terrible idea because it prevents Sorcs and Wardens from using combat pets in areas explicitly designed for combat, she, they've been able to do that for years. ZOS could come up much better solutions, and you know it.

    ZOS could fix pet collision.
    ZOS could fix pets blocking the camera.
    ZOS could fix pet pathing.
    ZOS could make it so pets have to be re-summoned if you want,to use them in town for quests or justice system content.
    ZOS could even disable all combat near crafting stations/quest NPCs (would require removing justice system interactions) in order to justify turning off pets in those areas.

    A flat removal of Sorc and Warden pets is the most unfair option ZOS could take...and yet its the one you advocate for?

    Interesting.

    Point 1 is false. Summoning daedra has rather negative connotations in TES Lore for most common folk. In other TES games, there is almost always no difference in their reactions between you summoning a daedra and you having a zombie thrall. Having necromancy trigger guards in ESO but not daedra do so doesn't have a basis in TES lore. Also, a lore reason is always inferior to a gameplay reason. The fact that sorc has both as justification for the proposed change whereas necro only has the former completely undermines your argument. If necros can deal with their restrictions in cities, sorcs cannot whine about their pet being removed in cities, especially when it's less impactful on their combat prowess than necro's restrictions are. There is no gray area here, this segment of your argument is 100% invalid. It's simply not a valid line of argument.

    As to point 2, that's an entirely arbitrary distinction on your part. It's not something that actually has any meaning. Classes get changed all the time from what people already signed up for. So, if this is a type of restriction that any other class already has to deal with, there is no case whatsoever to be made that it's specifically unfair to that class. Because necros already deal with a restriction, sorcs therefore cannot legitimately claim that this proposed change is unfair to them. Whether it was that way from the beginning or not makes no difference to the legitimacy of that argument.

    The reason I advocate for this specific change is because we know that it's the simplest one for ZOS to make. All the ones you advocate for are things that I don't necessarily think that ZOS could get right. But disabling sorc pets in cities, I'm confident they would, because it's similar to something already existing in the game.

    I don't main a petsorc, but I do have one. My main ranged dps is also a magden. So I'm very aware personally what it's like to go into cities and have to unsummon them, or to fight without them. And I can say with certainty, I don't think disabling them in cities is unfair in any way. It's not, end of story. Everything you've argued has simply been favoritism for your preferred class. It has no base, and has displayed clear double standards. So if you're against the proposed change, be against it for legitimate reasons, not for invalid, hypocritical ones. Because constantly making arguments based on the latter does nothing to push meaningful discussion on the actual pros and cons of the proposal, it's simply a pointless derailing.
    Edited by MojaveHeld on August 1, 2019 4:45AM
  • Bobby_V_Rockit
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    Lol, can you imagine if pets had the same 16 second timer, aaaah, good times
  • Banana
    Banana
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    Decon feature needed
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
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    MojaveHeld wrote: »
    MojaveHeld wrote: »
    MojaveHeld wrote: »
    Kel wrote: »
    Nestor wrote: »
    The Cosmetic non combat pets have no clipping so dont affect anything.

    I agree that Matriarchs need to go Roost somewhere while the player is in a town.

    Can you clarify what you want a Pet Sorc to do in a town where there are quests that require combat, like Daggerfall, Orsinium, Vivec, etc?

    Can you clarify what justice system Pet Sorcs should do when attacked by guards in towns, such as if they were trying to steal from safeboxes in areas near crafting stations or in crowded buildings like banks?

    Do they just have to suck it up and lose access to that skill because it annoys people?

    ESO really isn't built very well for a retroactive "Sorry, you can't have your Twilight (or scamp/bear) anymore" change. I would hope that ZOS can come up with a better solution to the issues with pets blocking cameras than just taking away combat abilities in towns.

    I mean, the same thing necromancers have to do, I'd imagine.

    Necromancers were designed that way.

    That's not remotely the same as telling established classes "Sorry, you've been able to use this skill anywhere you like for 2 years/since launch, but now you can't."

    That's not really true, at all. Necromancers aren't balanced around not being able to use some of their most important abilities in cities. They're simply forced to suck it up and deal with it, even though it makes things more difficult and less convenient for them. So taking away sorc pets in towns would hardly be unfair compared to that. In fact, it's a lesser amount of abilities for pet sorcs to lose access to in towns than necromancers already have to deal with it. And unlike with necros, there's actually a good gameplay reason to do it (the necro handicap is purely for rp reasons, disabling sorc pets in towns removes the obstacle they represent to other players). So, if anything, taking away sorc pets in towns would be far better gameplay design than what currently happens with necromancers. There are still plenty of valid reasons to be against what was proposed, but what you brought up isn't one of them.

    My point was more that while Necromancers launched with a mechanic that deprives them of some of their skills, something that is made clear upfront from the beginning in the character screen at Elsweyr launch...

    In contrast, Sorcs and Wardens have been able to use their pets whenever, wherever they like, since launch and since Morrowind, respectively. This would be a retroactive change for those classes and players, which is a clear difference from the necromancer situation. It requires removing existing functionality from two classes - not for "balance" reasons - purely because players are annoyed.

    So the "but Necromancers..." excuse doesnt fly. A class that has restricted ability use from its launch is NOT the same as advocating for taking away abilities that two classes have been able to use whenever they want for 2+ and 5+ years.

    I should hope that ZOS can come up with a better solution to pet collision and camera blocking than that.

    So you’re saying the humble NPC’s of Tamriel wouldn’t take offence to plethora of daedra amongst them? Players will adapt, they always do. And it’ll be up front for new players

    The humble NPCs of Tamriel didnt care in TES 3, TES 4 or TES 5, and they havent cared In ESO for 5 years, so that's a poor argument. I mean, TES IV Oblivion literally had daedra pouring out of the Deadlands, and no one batted an eye at what I summoned.

    As for the rest, not only could you say the same the same about every single nerf in ESO, none of that is a good justification for taking away pet abilities we've been able to use wherever we liked for 5 years (Sorcs) or 2 years (Wardens) in areas where we can get into combat just because you are annoyed.

    There's no "balance" reason for taking away those abilities in towns. Just a "QOL" improvement at the expense of every pet-using warden or sorc who gets into combat within town limits which is allowed and indeed encouraged by ESO's quests and justice system!

    ZOS needs to find a better solution, one that doesnt involve taking away pets from Sorcs and Wardens in combat areas.

    You keep saying this, but it's simply not true. How long you've been able to use them up to this point is 100%, totally and completely irrelevant. Every class has had to deal with a change they didn't like at some point. There is not a single thing specifically unfair about this proposed change to sorc pets in cities, they don't get to demand special treatment. If necros can deal with a harsher handicap in cities, pet sorcs don't get to scream that it's unfair to disable their pets in them, which has a much more valid justification to happen than for necros. Full stop. You can be against the proposal for other reasons, but this is not even close to a valid one. It has no merit, stop using it as an argument.


    1. Necros have restrictions for lore reasons.
    Summoners/Conjurers don't have that restriction in ESO or any other TES games.

    2. Necros had their restrictions from their launch.
    You advocate for taking away abilities Sorcs and Wardens have been able to use for years, in areas that ZOS designed for combat. That's a change at the expense of existing Sorc and Warden players, and yes, that's unfair - there is zero "balance" reasons for this, just player annoyance.


    I see a pretty clear difference between a new class designed with restricted abilities vs calling for existing classes to be nerfed in certain combat areas because you are annoyed. Nor do I see any lore or balance reason why Sorcs and Wardens ought to be redesigned to match Necros!



    I'm going to continue to argue that removing Sorc and Warden pets from towns is a terrible idea because it prevents Sorcs and Wardens from using combat pets in areas explicitly designed for combat, she, they've been able to do that for years. ZOS could come up much better solutions, and you know it.

    ZOS could fix pet collision.
    ZOS could fix pets blocking the camera.
    ZOS could fix pet pathing.
    ZOS could make it so pets have to be re-summoned if you want,to use them in town for quests or justice system content.
    ZOS could even disable all combat near crafting stations/quest NPCs (would require removing justice system interactions) in order to justify turning off pets in those areas.

    A flat removal of Sorc and Warden pets is the most unfair option ZOS could take...and yet its the one you advocate for?

    Interesting.

    Point 1 is false. Summoning daedra has rather negative connotations in TES Lore for most common folk. In other TES games, there is almost always no difference in their reactions between you summoning a daedra and you having a zombie thrall. Having necromancy trigger guards in ESO but not daedra do so doesn't have a basis in TES lore. Also, a lore reason is always inferior to a gameplay reason. The fact that sorc has both as justification for the proposed change whereas necro only has the former completely undermines your argument. If necros can deal with their restrictions in cities, sorcs cannot whine about their pet being removed in cities, especially when it's less impactful on their combat prowess than necro's restrictions are. There is no gray area here, this segment of your argument is 100% invalid. It's simply not a valid line of argument.

    As to point 2, that's an entirely arbitrary distinction on your part. It's not something that actually has any meaning. Classes get changed all the time from what people already signed up for. So, if this is a type of restriction that any other class already has to deal with, there is no case whatsoever to be made that it's specifically unfair to that class. Because necros already deal with a restriction, sorcs therefore cannot legitimately claim that this proposed change is unfair to them. Whether it was that way from the beginning or not makes no difference to the legitimacy of that argument.

    The reason I advocate for this specific change is because we know that it's the simplest one for ZOS to make. All the ones you advocate for are things that I don't necessarily think that ZOS could get right. But disabling sorc pets in cities, I'm confident they would, because it's similar to something already existing in the game.

    I don't main a petsorc, but I do have one. My main ranged dps is also a magden. So I'm very aware personally what it's like to go into cities and have to unsummon them, or to fight without them. And I can say with certainty, I don't think disabling them in cities is unfair in any way. It's not, end of story. Everything you've argued has simply been favoritism for your preferred class. It has no base, and has displayed clear double standards. So if you're against the proposed change, be against it for legitimate reasons, not for invalid, hypocritical ones. Because constantly making arguments based on the latter does nothing to push meaningful discussion on the actual pros and cons of the proposal, it's simply a pointless derailing.

    I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree, because, well, I disagree with your points.

    You want Sorcs and Wardens to be redesigned to work effectively the same way as Necromancers, and I disagree.

    Necromancers had restricted abilities from the beginning and no one playing necromancer expected anything different, whereas, under your suggestion:

    Sorcs and Wardens lose the ability to use their pets in towns like Daggerfall, Vulkhel Guard, Davon's Watch, Vivec, Orsinium, etc. where there are quests that require combat.

    Sorcs and Wardens lose the ability to use their pets to defend/heal themselves in justice system situations, and yeah, ZOS put safeboxes near crafting stations.

    Sorcs and Wardens lose the ability to duel in towns.

    Unlike Necromancers, who never had the option to use those abilities without fines, your suggestion takes away functionality from Sorc and Warden players for no better reason than you are annoyed by pets. That's quite a few losses for Sorcs and Wardens when there's no balance reason or lore reason for their summoned pets not be allowed in towns.

    So yes, I have a problem with that, as a MagDK main. And oddly enough, I have more faith in ZOS than you that they can figured out a solution that doesnt involve Sorcs and Wardens losing access to pets in town quests, town dueling, and town justice system activities.


    Ultinately, I suspect we're going to have to agree to disagree. However, if you want to continue, please take this discussion as one I'm having in good faith, neither trying to be hypocritical nor favoring "my class" (which, shockingly, it isn't.) If you can't accept that I disagree with you in all good faith, then I'm not interested in continuing to discuss this with you.
  • mairwen85
    mairwen85
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    Would be nice if non combat pets had an inventory you could use as overflow - - maybe send to town to sell or buy supplies. They could have added a pet trainer that increases the carry weight and speed of return... But alas! I guess zos solved that with 5k merchant and banker, so we likely won't see such a thing.
    Edited by mairwen85 on August 1, 2019 5:42AM
    Is all that we see or seem
    but a dream within a dream?

    ~ Edgar Allan Poe
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
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    ✭✭✭✭✭
    thorwyn wrote: »
    This has to be a troll post. OP is a registered forum member since 2015. There is no way he hasn't figured out the difference between a matriarch and a fluff pet in almost five years time.

    I just wish it weren't practically a duplicate of this current post: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/487031/can-we-just-make-summons-illegal-already-a-rant-about-bears-blocking-stuff/

    We're having nearly the exact same arguments over pets here as we did there, and I find it frustrating when we're all repeating ourselves spread over two threads on the same topic.
  • MojaveHeld
    MojaveHeld
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    MojaveHeld wrote: »
    MojaveHeld wrote: »
    MojaveHeld wrote: »
    Kel wrote: »
    Nestor wrote: »
    The Cosmetic non combat pets have no clipping so dont affect anything.

    I agree that Matriarchs need to go Roost somewhere while the player is in a town.

    Can you clarify what you want a Pet Sorc to do in a town where there are quests that require combat, like Daggerfall, Orsinium, Vivec, etc?

    Can you clarify what justice system Pet Sorcs should do when attacked by guards in towns, such as if they were trying to steal from safeboxes in areas near crafting stations or in crowded buildings like banks?

    Do they just have to suck it up and lose access to that skill because it annoys people?

    ESO really isn't built very well for a retroactive "Sorry, you can't have your Twilight (or scamp/bear) anymore" change. I would hope that ZOS can come up with a better solution to the issues with pets blocking cameras than just taking away combat abilities in towns.

    I mean, the same thing necromancers have to do, I'd imagine.

    Necromancers were designed that way.

    That's not remotely the same as telling established classes "Sorry, you've been able to use this skill anywhere you like for 2 years/since launch, but now you can't."

    That's not really true, at all. Necromancers aren't balanced around not being able to use some of their most important abilities in cities. They're simply forced to suck it up and deal with it, even though it makes things more difficult and less convenient for them. So taking away sorc pets in towns would hardly be unfair compared to that. In fact, it's a lesser amount of abilities for pet sorcs to lose access to in towns than necromancers already have to deal with it. And unlike with necros, there's actually a good gameplay reason to do it (the necro handicap is purely for rp reasons, disabling sorc pets in towns removes the obstacle they represent to other players). So, if anything, taking away sorc pets in towns would be far better gameplay design than what currently happens with necromancers. There are still plenty of valid reasons to be against what was proposed, but what you brought up isn't one of them.

    My point was more that while Necromancers launched with a mechanic that deprives them of some of their skills, something that is made clear upfront from the beginning in the character screen at Elsweyr launch...

    In contrast, Sorcs and Wardens have been able to use their pets whenever, wherever they like, since launch and since Morrowind, respectively. This would be a retroactive change for those classes and players, which is a clear difference from the necromancer situation. It requires removing existing functionality from two classes - not for "balance" reasons - purely because players are annoyed.

    So the "but Necromancers..." excuse doesnt fly. A class that has restricted ability use from its launch is NOT the same as advocating for taking away abilities that two classes have been able to use whenever they want for 2+ and 5+ years.

    I should hope that ZOS can come up with a better solution to pet collision and camera blocking than that.

    So you’re saying the humble NPC’s of Tamriel wouldn’t take offence to plethora of daedra amongst them? Players will adapt, they always do. And it’ll be up front for new players

    The humble NPCs of Tamriel didnt care in TES 3, TES 4 or TES 5, and they havent cared In ESO for 5 years, so that's a poor argument. I mean, TES IV Oblivion literally had daedra pouring out of the Deadlands, and no one batted an eye at what I summoned.

    As for the rest, not only could you say the same the same about every single nerf in ESO, none of that is a good justification for taking away pet abilities we've been able to use wherever we liked for 5 years (Sorcs) or 2 years (Wardens) in areas where we can get into combat just because you are annoyed.

    There's no "balance" reason for taking away those abilities in towns. Just a "QOL" improvement at the expense of every pet-using warden or sorc who gets into combat within town limits which is allowed and indeed encouraged by ESO's quests and justice system!

    ZOS needs to find a better solution, one that doesnt involve taking away pets from Sorcs and Wardens in combat areas.

    You keep saying this, but it's simply not true. How long you've been able to use them up to this point is 100%, totally and completely irrelevant. Every class has had to deal with a change they didn't like at some point. There is not a single thing specifically unfair about this proposed change to sorc pets in cities, they don't get to demand special treatment. If necros can deal with a harsher handicap in cities, pet sorcs don't get to scream that it's unfair to disable their pets in them, which has a much more valid justification to happen than for necros. Full stop. You can be against the proposal for other reasons, but this is not even close to a valid one. It has no merit, stop using it as an argument.


    1. Necros have restrictions for lore reasons.
    Summoners/Conjurers don't have that restriction in ESO or any other TES games.

    2. Necros had their restrictions from their launch.
    You advocate for taking away abilities Sorcs and Wardens have been able to use for years, in areas that ZOS designed for combat. That's a change at the expense of existing Sorc and Warden players, and yes, that's unfair - there is zero "balance" reasons for this, just player annoyance.


    I see a pretty clear difference between a new class designed with restricted abilities vs calling for existing classes to be nerfed in certain combat areas because you are annoyed. Nor do I see any lore or balance reason why Sorcs and Wardens ought to be redesigned to match Necros!



    I'm going to continue to argue that removing Sorc and Warden pets from towns is a terrible idea because it prevents Sorcs and Wardens from using combat pets in areas explicitly designed for combat, she, they've been able to do that for years. ZOS could come up much better solutions, and you know it.

    ZOS could fix pet collision.
    ZOS could fix pets blocking the camera.
    ZOS could fix pet pathing.
    ZOS could make it so pets have to be re-summoned if you want,to use them in town for quests or justice system content.
    ZOS could even disable all combat near crafting stations/quest NPCs (would require removing justice system interactions) in order to justify turning off pets in those areas.

    A flat removal of Sorc and Warden pets is the most unfair option ZOS could take...and yet its the one you advocate for?

    Interesting.

    Point 1 is false. Summoning daedra has rather negative connotations in TES Lore for most common folk. In other TES games, there is almost always no difference in their reactions between you summoning a daedra and you having a zombie thrall. Having necromancy trigger guards in ESO but not daedra do so doesn't have a basis in TES lore. Also, a lore reason is always inferior to a gameplay reason. The fact that sorc has both as justification for the proposed change whereas necro only has the former completely undermines your argument. If necros can deal with their restrictions in cities, sorcs cannot whine about their pet being removed in cities, especially when it's less impactful on their combat prowess than necro's restrictions are. There is no gray area here, this segment of your argument is 100% invalid. It's simply not a valid line of argument.

    As to point 2, that's an entirely arbitrary distinction on your part. It's not something that actually has any meaning. Classes get changed all the time from what people already signed up for. So, if this is a type of restriction that any other class already has to deal with, there is no case whatsoever to be made that it's specifically unfair to that class. Because necros already deal with a restriction, sorcs therefore cannot legitimately claim that this proposed change is unfair to them. Whether it was that way from the beginning or not makes no difference to the legitimacy of that argument.

    The reason I advocate for this specific change is because we know that it's the simplest one for ZOS to make. All the ones you advocate for are things that I don't necessarily think that ZOS could get right. But disabling sorc pets in cities, I'm confident they would, because it's similar to something already existing in the game.

    I don't main a petsorc, but I do have one. My main ranged dps is also a magden. So I'm very aware personally what it's like to go into cities and have to unsummon them, or to fight without them. And I can say with certainty, I don't think disabling them in cities is unfair in any way. It's not, end of story. Everything you've argued has simply been favoritism for your preferred class. It has no base, and has displayed clear double standards. So if you're against the proposed change, be against it for legitimate reasons, not for invalid, hypocritical ones. Because constantly making arguments based on the latter does nothing to push meaningful discussion on the actual pros and cons of the proposal, it's simply a pointless derailing.

    I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree, because, well, I disagree with your points.

    You want Sorcs and Wardens to be redesigned to work effectively the same way as Necromancers, and I disagree.

    Necromancers had restricted abilities from the beginning and no one playing necromancer expected anything different, whereas, under your suggestion:

    Sorcs and Wardens lose the ability to use their pets in towns like Daggerfall, Vulkhel Guard, Davon's Watch, Vivec, Orsinium, etc. where there are quests that require combat.

    Sorcs and Wardens lose the ability to use their pets to defend/heal themselves in justice system situations, and yeah, ZOS put safeboxes near crafting stations.

    Sorcs and Wardens lose the ability to duel in towns.

    Unlike Necromancers, who never had the option to use those abilities without fines, your suggestion takes away functionality from Sorc and Warden players for no better reason than you are annoyed by pets. That's quite a few losses for Sorcs and Wardens when there's no balance reason or lore reason for their summoned pets not be allowed in towns.

    So yes, I have a problem with that, as a MagDK main. And oddly enough, I have more faith in ZOS than you that they can figured out a solution that doesnt involve Sorcs and Wardens losing access to pets in town quests, town dueling, and town justice system activities.


    Ultinately, I suspect we're going to have to agree to disagree. However, if you want to continue, please take this discussion as one I'm having in good faith, neither trying to be hypocritical nor favoring "my class" (which, shockingly, it isn't.) If you can't accept that I disagree with you in all good faith, then I'm not interested in continuing to discuss this with you.

    We can disagree, but not on that bolded part. I pointed out already that there is no lore reason to ban necro abilities but not daedric summons. The only case to be made lorewise is either for banning both in cities, or banning neither. So since necro ones are banned, there's a perfect case to be made for banning sorc pets for the same reason. Plus, ability to use the gameplay mechanics in the game without being blocked by another player's summons is a balance reason. There are more valid reasons to ban sorc pets in cities than there are to ban certain necro abilities, and the fact that the latter exists means that talking about doing the former cannot in any way be unfair to sorcs.

    And yeah, we are absolutely gonna have to disagree on sorcs losing access to their pets in cities somehow being worse than necro not being able to use some of their abilities from the start. Whether it existed that way in the first place or was changed to be that way is totally irrelevant, so no arguments based on it are even slightly reasonable. There's no way to address something that stems at its base from faulty logic.

    I apologize for calling you hypocritical, the fact that you claimed necro had clear lore reasons for the restrictions but summoning daedra didn't was so patently false that I assumed it could only be made as a double-standard, out of hypocrisy that you wanted special treatment for pet sorcs. So yeah, that claim alone made it look like you weren't arguing in good faith.
    That's why I assumed you were a petsorc main, because you used a blatantly false claim to support special treatment for petsorcs. Doing that made it look like you weren't interested in honest discussion on the topic, and just wanted to derail it. Turns out you did want a genuine discussion on the matter, but knowingly using inaccurate points makes that difficult.
  • corpseblade
    corpseblade
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    I have seen people suggest that they shrink the Matriarchs. Has ZOS ever given any reason for not doing this?
  • seratin
    seratin
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    Seems like a good idea might be to make non-hostile pets partially transparent when you get close to them. Maybe limit it to when they're not in combat as well.
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
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    ✭✭✭✭✭
    MojaveHeld wrote: »
    MojaveHeld wrote: »
    MojaveHeld wrote: »
    MojaveHeld wrote: »
    Kel wrote: »
    Nestor wrote: »
    The Cosmetic non combat pets have no clipping so dont affect anything.

    I agree that Matriarchs need to go Roost somewhere while the player is in a town.

    Can you clarify what you want a Pet Sorc to do in a town where there are quests that require combat, like Daggerfall, Orsinium, Vivec, etc?

    Can you clarify what justice system Pet Sorcs should do when attacked by guards in towns, such as if they were trying to steal from safeboxes in areas near crafting stations or in crowded buildings like banks?

    Do they just have to suck it up and lose access to that skill because it annoys people?

    ESO really isn't built very well for a retroactive "Sorry, you can't have your Twilight (or scamp/bear) anymore" change. I would hope that ZOS can come up with a better solution to the issues with pets blocking cameras than just taking away combat abilities in towns.

    I mean, the same thing necromancers have to do, I'd imagine.

    Necromancers were designed that way.

    That's not remotely the same as telling established classes "Sorry, you've been able to use this skill anywhere you like for 2 years/since launch, but now you can't."

    That's not really true, at all. Necromancers aren't balanced around not being able to use some of their most important abilities in cities. They're simply forced to suck it up and deal with it, even though it makes things more difficult and less convenient for them. So taking away sorc pets in towns would hardly be unfair compared to that. In fact, it's a lesser amount of abilities for pet sorcs to lose access to in towns than necromancers already have to deal with it. And unlike with necros, there's actually a good gameplay reason to do it (the necro handicap is purely for rp reasons, disabling sorc pets in towns removes the obstacle they represent to other players). So, if anything, taking away sorc pets in towns would be far better gameplay design than what currently happens with necromancers. There are still plenty of valid reasons to be against what was proposed, but what you brought up isn't one of them.

    My point was more that while Necromancers launched with a mechanic that deprives them of some of their skills, something that is made clear upfront from the beginning in the character screen at Elsweyr launch...

    In contrast, Sorcs and Wardens have been able to use their pets whenever, wherever they like, since launch and since Morrowind, respectively. This would be a retroactive change for those classes and players, which is a clear difference from the necromancer situation. It requires removing existing functionality from two classes - not for "balance" reasons - purely because players are annoyed.

    So the "but Necromancers..." excuse doesnt fly. A class that has restricted ability use from its launch is NOT the same as advocating for taking away abilities that two classes have been able to use whenever they want for 2+ and 5+ years.

    I should hope that ZOS can come up with a better solution to pet collision and camera blocking than that.

    So you’re saying the humble NPC’s of Tamriel wouldn’t take offence to plethora of daedra amongst them? Players will adapt, they always do. And it’ll be up front for new players

    The humble NPCs of Tamriel didnt care in TES 3, TES 4 or TES 5, and they havent cared In ESO for 5 years, so that's a poor argument. I mean, TES IV Oblivion literally had daedra pouring out of the Deadlands, and no one batted an eye at what I summoned.

    As for the rest, not only could you say the same the same about every single nerf in ESO, none of that is a good justification for taking away pet abilities we've been able to use wherever we liked for 5 years (Sorcs) or 2 years (Wardens) in areas where we can get into combat just because you are annoyed.

    There's no "balance" reason for taking away those abilities in towns. Just a "QOL" improvement at the expense of every pet-using warden or sorc who gets into combat within town limits which is allowed and indeed encouraged by ESO's quests and justice system!

    ZOS needs to find a better solution, one that doesnt involve taking away pets from Sorcs and Wardens in combat areas.

    You keep saying this, but it's simply not true. How long you've been able to use them up to this point is 100%, totally and completely irrelevant. Every class has had to deal with a change they didn't like at some point. There is not a single thing specifically unfair about this proposed change to sorc pets in cities, they don't get to demand special treatment. If necros can deal with a harsher handicap in cities, pet sorcs don't get to scream that it's unfair to disable their pets in them, which has a much more valid justification to happen than for necros. Full stop. You can be against the proposal for other reasons, but this is not even close to a valid one. It has no merit, stop using it as an argument.


    1. Necros have restrictions for lore reasons.
    Summoners/Conjurers don't have that restriction in ESO or any other TES games.

    2. Necros had their restrictions from their launch.
    You advocate for taking away abilities Sorcs and Wardens have been able to use for years, in areas that ZOS designed for combat. That's a change at the expense of existing Sorc and Warden players, and yes, that's unfair - there is zero "balance" reasons for this, just player annoyance.


    I see a pretty clear difference between a new class designed with restricted abilities vs calling for existing classes to be nerfed in certain combat areas because you are annoyed. Nor do I see any lore or balance reason why Sorcs and Wardens ought to be redesigned to match Necros!



    I'm going to continue to argue that removing Sorc and Warden pets from towns is a terrible idea because it prevents Sorcs and Wardens from using combat pets in areas explicitly designed for combat, she, they've been able to do that for years. ZOS could come up much better solutions, and you know it.

    ZOS could fix pet collision.
    ZOS could fix pets blocking the camera.
    ZOS could fix pet pathing.
    ZOS could make it so pets have to be re-summoned if you want,to use them in town for quests or justice system content.
    ZOS could even disable all combat near crafting stations/quest NPCs (would require removing justice system interactions) in order to justify turning off pets in those areas.

    A flat removal of Sorc and Warden pets is the most unfair option ZOS could take...and yet its the one you advocate for?

    Interesting.

    Point 1 is false. Summoning daedra has rather negative connotations in TES Lore for most common folk. In other TES games, there is almost always no difference in their reactions between you summoning a daedra and you having a zombie thrall. Having necromancy trigger guards in ESO but not daedra do so doesn't have a basis in TES lore. Also, a lore reason is always inferior to a gameplay reason. The fact that sorc has both as justification for the proposed change whereas necro only has the former completely undermines your argument. If necros can deal with their restrictions in cities, sorcs cannot whine about their pet being removed in cities, especially when it's less impactful on their combat prowess than necro's restrictions are. There is no gray area here, this segment of your argument is 100% invalid. It's simply not a valid line of argument.

    As to point 2, that's an entirely arbitrary distinction on your part. It's not something that actually has any meaning. Classes get changed all the time from what people already signed up for. So, if this is a type of restriction that any other class already has to deal with, there is no case whatsoever to be made that it's specifically unfair to that class. Because necros already deal with a restriction, sorcs therefore cannot legitimately claim that this proposed change is unfair to them. Whether it was that way from the beginning or not makes no difference to the legitimacy of that argument.

    The reason I advocate for this specific change is because we know that it's the simplest one for ZOS to make. All the ones you advocate for are things that I don't necessarily think that ZOS could get right. But disabling sorc pets in cities, I'm confident they would, because it's similar to something already existing in the game.

    I don't main a petsorc, but I do have one. My main ranged dps is also a magden. So I'm very aware personally what it's like to go into cities and have to unsummon them, or to fight without them. And I can say with certainty, I don't think disabling them in cities is unfair in any way. It's not, end of story. Everything you've argued has simply been favoritism for your preferred class. It has no base, and has displayed clear double standards. So if you're against the proposed change, be against it for legitimate reasons, not for invalid, hypocritical ones. Because constantly making arguments based on the latter does nothing to push meaningful discussion on the actual pros and cons of the proposal, it's simply a pointless derailing.

    I think we're gonna have to agree to disagree, because, well, I disagree with your points.

    You want Sorcs and Wardens to be redesigned to work effectively the same way as Necromancers, and I disagree.

    Necromancers had restricted abilities from the beginning and no one playing necromancer expected anything different, whereas, under your suggestion:

    Sorcs and Wardens lose the ability to use their pets in towns like Daggerfall, Vulkhel Guard, Davon's Watch, Vivec, Orsinium, etc. where there are quests that require combat.

    Sorcs and Wardens lose the ability to use their pets to defend/heal themselves in justice system situations, and yeah, ZOS put safeboxes near crafting stations.

    Sorcs and Wardens lose the ability to duel in towns.

    Unlike Necromancers, who never had the option to use those abilities without fines, your suggestion takes away functionality from Sorc and Warden players for no better reason than you are annoyed by pets. That's quite a few losses for Sorcs and Wardens when there's no balance reason or lore reason for their summoned pets not be allowed in towns.

    So yes, I have a problem with that, as a MagDK main. And oddly enough, I have more faith in ZOS than you that they can figured out a solution that doesnt involve Sorcs and Wardens losing access to pets in town quests, town dueling, and town justice system activities.


    Ultinately, I suspect we're going to have to agree to disagree. However, if you want to continue, please take this discussion as one I'm having in good faith, neither trying to be hypocritical nor favoring "my class" (which, shockingly, it isn't.) If you can't accept that I disagree with you in all good faith, then I'm not interested in continuing to discuss this with you.

    We can disagree, but not on that bolded part. I pointed out already that there is no lore reason to ban necro abilities but not daedric summons. The only case to be made lorewise is either for banning both in cities, or banning neither. So since necro ones are banned, there's a perfect case to be made for banning sorc pets for the same reason. Plus, ability to use the gameplay mechanics in the game without being blocked by another player's summons is a balance reason. There are more valid reasons to ban sorc pets in cities than there are to ban certain necro abilities, and the fact that the latter exists means that talking about doing the former cannot in any way be unfair to sorcs.

    And yeah, we are absolutely gonna have to disagree on sorcs losing access to their pets in cities somehow being worse than necro not being able to use some of their abilities from the start. Whether it existed that way in the first place or was changed to be that way is totally irrelevant, so no arguments based on it are even slightly reasonable. There's no way to address something that stems at its base from faulty logic.

    I apologize for calling you hypocritical, the fact that you claimed necro had clear lore reasons for the restrictions but summoning daedra didn't was so patently false that I assumed it could only be made as a double-standard, out of hypocrisy that you wanted special treatment for pet sorcs. So yeah, that claim alone made it look like you weren't arguing in good faith.
    That's why I assumed you were a petsorc main, because you used a blatantly false claim to support special treatment for petsorcs. Doing that made it look like you weren't interested in honest discussion on the topic, and just wanted to derail it. Turns out you did want a genuine discussion on the matter, but knowingly using inaccurate points makes that difficult.

    So I see where the confusion came up. I cited lore restrictions for the Necro becase that's essentially why the Devs said they restricted Necro abilities. The Devs created that distinction for ESO's necromancer, saying that the people of Tamriel feel differently about obvious necromancy than regular conjuration. As you say, that distinction is not present in the other TES games. I do think its a crucial distinction that neither the TES games nor the Devs in ESO gave a similar restriction to Daedra (unless they change their mind as you desire).


    I do think the biggest difference in our stance is simply:

    You see Necros having restricted abilities as okay, so therefore Sorcs and Wardens should be totally okay with the same restrictions, and it should be ZOS' go-to plan because you don't trust them to fix it otherwise. To you, the changes to Sorc and Warden playstyles are irrelevant.

    Whereas I see Necros having restricted abilities as something the Devs decided to do for Necro, and if Sorcs and Wardens got the same restrictions now, it would be the Devs taking away abilities the Sorcs and Wardens had from the beginning, and I think that should be an absolute last resort for ZOS. Its actually quite relevant to me whether or not my sorc and my warden (not my main class, but I do have them) can continue to use pets to quest in town, duel in town, or do justice system interactions in town, OR whether I lose those abilities due to a redesign. I don't mind not having all my abilities on my necro because I knew that going in, but I would mind losing my Sorc and Warden pets for those activities in town since I've had those abilities.

    That a fair summation of our differences?

    Since those are pretty fundamental to our respective arguments, I think we're just gonna have to agree to disagree.

    So in any case, thanks for discussing it with me, and I hope you have a great day!
  • SteveCampsOut
    SteveCampsOut
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    It is so hard to legislate or enforce courtesy. Any summon user who has been playing for any time knows full well they can be annoying in congested areas/vendors/banks/crafting stations and therefore thoughtfully dismisses them. I confess I'm amazed how much simpler and cleaner this is with the addon 'Pet Dismiss'. My point about the addon is not to tease my friends who don't play on PC but to emphasize that ZOS really should make this simple one hot key press an option in the basic game. That is something unobtrusive that could help at least some. Less players in the same instance might also help.

    ZOS Screwed the pooch when they made hitting the pet key a 2nd time an attack instead of a despawn like it originally was.
    @ֆȶɛʋɛƈǟʍքֆօʊȶ ʀʋʟɨʄɛ⍟
    Sanguine & Psijic Group Beta Tester.
    Steve's Craftiness Find out what I can make for you at my Google Doc Spreadsheet.
    Pacrooti's Hirelings Website:
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    NA Server:
    Steforax Soulstrong CH782 Sorcerer AD
    Grumpy Kahjiti CH782 Dragonknight AD
    Rheticia Le Drakisius CH782 Nightblade DC
    Razmuzan Thrasmas CH782 Templar EP
    Sheenara Soulstrong CH782 Dragonknight DC
    Erik Ramzey CH782 Nightblade AD
    Growling Kahjiti CH782 Nightblade EP
    One of Many Faces CH782 Sorcerer DC
    Grumpasaurus Rex CH782 Warden DC
    EU Server:
    Guildmaster of Pacrooti's Hirelings AD Based LGBT Friendly Guild.
    Stefrex Souliss CH701 Sorcerer AD
    Grumpy Kahjiti CH701 Dragonknight DC
    Slithisi Ksissi CH701 Nightblade EP
    Pokes-With-Fire CH701 Dragonknight AD
    Josie-The-Pussi-Cat CH701 Templar AD
    Stug-Grog M'God CH701 Templar DC
    One With Many Faces CH701 Nightblade DC
    Trixie Truskan CH701 Sorcerer EP
    Grumpetasaurus Rex CH701 Warden EP
    ESO Plus status: Canceled!
  • Michae
    Michae
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    How about making it that using a crafting station or bank despawns the pet? The main annoyance of pets is that they clutter the crafting hubs and obstruct the stations and npcs. Disabling duelling in crafting hubs might also be a good idea.
    It is so hard to legislate or enforce courtesy. Any summon user who has been playing for any time knows full well they can be annoying in congested areas/vendors/banks/crafting stations and therefore thoughtfully dismisses them. I confess I'm amazed how much simpler and cleaner this is with the addon 'Pet Dismiss'. My point about the addon is not to tease my friends who don't play on PC but to emphasize that ZOS really should make this simple one hot key press an option in the basic game. That is something unobtrusive that could help at least some. Less players in the same instance might also help.

    ZOS Screwed the pooch when they made hitting the pet key a 2nd time an attack instead of a despawn like it originally was.
    Console design, the controllers have only a few buttons hence everything's contextual now and same prompts have different functions depending on the situation. Bloody peasants. ;)
    Edited by Michae on August 1, 2019 8:15AM
    "I bear the cruel weight of certainty. Total, absolute, relentless certainty. People rarely comprehend the luxury of doubt... the freedom that comes with indecision. I envy you."
    Sotha Sil

    @Michae PC/EU
  • StytchFingal
    StytchFingal
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    Nestor wrote: »
    The Cosmetic non combat pets have no clipping so dont affect anything.

    I agree that Matriarchs need to go Roost somewhere while the player is in a town.

    Can you clarify what you want a Pet Sorc to do in a town where there are quests that require combat, like Daggerfall, Orsinium, Vivec, etc?

    Can you clarify what justice system Pet Sorcs should do when attacked by guards in towns, such as if they were trying to steal from safeboxes in areas near crafting stations or in crowded buildings like banks?

    Do they just have to suck it up and lose access to that skill because it annoys people?

    ESO really isn't built very well for a retroactive "Sorry, you can't have your Twilight (or scamp/bear) anymore" change. I would hope that ZOS can come up with a better solution to the issues with pets blocking cameras than just taking away combat abilities in towns.

    A pet is not needed for any overland content short of a world boss.

    A pet ain't gonna save anyone from a guard. All that saves you from guards are distancing, cc breaks, jumping off a bridge, wall, ledge etc, and zone changing either via door or wayshrine.


    Edited to add: Btw, I ain't advocating for ZoS to not allow pets in towns. Just saying they ain't necessary, and that I wish more players would do as myself and a few others do: put them away. It's very easy on PC, at least; there is an addon called Pet Dismiss which allows a keybind to get rid of them immediately. I use it all the time.
    Edited by StytchFingal on August 1, 2019 8:33AM
  • VaranisArano
    VaranisArano
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    Nestor wrote: »
    The Cosmetic non combat pets have no clipping so dont affect anything.

    I agree that Matriarchs need to go Roost somewhere while the player is in a town.

    Can you clarify what you want a Pet Sorc to do in a town where there are quests that require combat, like Daggerfall, Orsinium, Vivec, etc?

    Can you clarify what justice system Pet Sorcs should do when attacked by guards in towns, such as if they were trying to steal from safeboxes in areas near crafting stations or in crowded buildings like banks?

    Do they just have to suck it up and lose access to that skill because it annoys people?

    ESO really isn't built very well for a retroactive "Sorry, you can't have your Twilight (or scamp/bear) anymore" change. I would hope that ZOS can come up with a better solution to the issues with pets blocking cameras than just taking away combat abilities in towns.

    A pet is not needed for any overland content short of a world boss.

    A pet ain't gonna save anyone from a guard. All that saves you from guards are distancing, cc breaks, jumping off a bridge, wall, ledge etc, and zone changing either via door or wayshrine.


    Edited to add: Btw, I ain't advocating for ZoS to not allow pets in towns. Just saying they ain't necessary, and that I wish more players would do as myself and a few others do: put them away. It's very easy on PC, at least; there is an addon called Pet Dismiss which allows a keybind to get rid of them immediately. I use it all the time.

    I realize you aren't arguing for their removal, but honestly, whether or not Sorc or Warden pets are "needed" in towns by your judgment doesn't actually make me any keener to lose the ability to use them while questing in town, dueling in town, or justice system interactions in town. If my magsorc is getting chased by a guard, I might like to self-heal in the middle of all that running, jumping, and cc breaks, you know? :)


    Anyways, I wish ZOS made it easier or at least more obvious how to despawn pets. I was in Vet Ranks with my MagSorc before I learned I could click the buff on the character menu instead of having to manually remove the skill from my skill bar!

    If we really want desummoning pets to become commonplace, ZOS needs to add things like that add-on to the base game. I'm on PC myself, but I run a very light add-on load because I play PVP a lot, as do most of the folks I PVP with, so unfortunately even extremely helpful add-ons arent a surefire solution.
  • kinguardian
    kinguardian
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    I love the pets and the non combat pets never bother me. They dont get in my way on screen. Animals are important to me in real life. I work with animals and in the game I collect all the cute ones. I really like the look of them and seeing them with other players.

    I do wish that we could interact more with our pets. Like giving them treats or play a game with them. Grooming and cuddling them, talking to them etc. Maybe even some that can help you track in a quest or some that do attack an enemy with you. Something like that.

    And for the mounts I also wish more interaction again giving them food or a treat grooming and cuddling. For example the big mount we got with elsweyr talks in game but as a mount he doesn't talk. It would have been fun of you just could talk to them.

    There are so many fun options for both pets and mounts and I hope in the future maybe they do something with it.

    As for the combat pets like the bear and the deadra, people shut turn them of in towns or crowded places and they only should pop up in a fight. I have a button that I mapped that dismisses combat pets. It works super.
  • EmEm_Oh
    EmEm_Oh
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    Play the pets before you shame the pets.
    Edited by EmEm_Oh on August 1, 2019 10:44AM
  • Minyassa
    Minyassa
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    zaria wrote: »
    Nestor wrote: »
    The Cosmetic non combat pets have no clipping so dont affect anything.

    I agree that Matriarchs need to go Roost somewhere while the player is in a town.
    Having them land would resolve the issue and be very cute.
    They could walk but will fly if you run then settle down.
    They would land as idle animation outside of dungeons, trial and similar. The healing would still work if grounded.

    That would be ADORABLE. I've seen that NPC flappy sitting down and it's precious as heck.
  • Kalik_Gold
    Kalik_Gold
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    Just have the Daedra Sorc pets poof away 15 secs after no combat, and poof back in when combat is initiates. (Visually only, no need to recast).

    The Warden bear should be able to wander off 15 secs after no combat. Then he can whistle when combat starts and bear runs back, Make the whistle sound be able to turn off if annoys people also. Also release new pets at zone merchants or be able to tame wild animals.

    This will also help with server lag with less to render, correct?
    Edited by Kalik_Gold on August 1, 2019 11:18AM
    Ras Kalik | Redguard - Templar
    Jux Blackheart | Redguard - Nightblade
    Aurik Siet'ka | Redguard - Necromancer
    Cacique the Sage of Ius | Redguard - Warden
    Goliath of Hammerfell | Redguard - Dragonknight
    Kaotik Von Dae'mon | Breton - Sorcerer [PvP Healer]
    ______________________________________________________________
    Cinan Tharn | Imperial - Dragonknight [PvE Tank]
    Tyrus Septim | Imperial - Sorcerer [PvE Damage]
    Herzog Zwei the Genesis | Breton - Templar [PvE Healer]
    ______________________________________________________________
    Champion 810+ CP | PS4/NA | DC PVP | †The Vestige
    Ras Kalik the Vestige, a renown Redguard Paladin and the wielder of Chrysamere (and Volendrung); He has been blessed to save Tamriel from Molag Bal’s destructive Planemeld while reuniting the Five Companions. His further accomplishments after defeating Molag Bal, has been to stop the destruction of Morrowind, the Clockwork City, return order to the isle of Summerset and create a new king in Wrothgar and a queen in Elsywer. These events have made him a living legend and continue to lead him into new adventures throughout Tamriel, as well as into the hearts of many ladies including the Elf Queen, Aryenn. (not only Sai Sahan has a secret snowflake!)

    Over years of adventurous travels, Ras Kalik had become a loner, until he re-visited his homeland of Alik'r. Alik'r and it's cities were overrun by the undead Ra-Netu and therefore he made an allegiance with Alik'r's own Ash'abah tribe. These Ash'abah with his help, cleansed the city of Sentinel in Alik'r desert and it's surrounding areas of the undead brought to life by the Withered Hand. After rescuing Sentinel from undead, King Fahara’jad’s personal bodyguard the Goliath of Hammerfell, who was given this name by Imperials in the region; asked to join the tribe after learning of the defeat of the Withered Hand to the Ash'abah. Kalik promised Goliath he would task him with fighting enemies on the battlefield if he so desired

    Jux Blackheart a master thief that frequents the Sisters of the Sands inn for pilfering, was known to infiltrate any bank vault or Ayelid ruin without detection, but Kalik can vividly recall the night he met the thief. Jux found himself rummaging thru a slightly inebriated Kalik’s pocket for too long, on a full-mooned night and because of this greed. He lost two fingertips as a lesson! In return, he gained a new friend.

    Kaotik Von’Daemon is an outcast, and a half-caste between a Breton mother and a Redguard father. Kaotik become a pariah due to his conjuration of Daedra pets. He was taught healing magic during his childhood years by his Breton mother. His father due to Redguard customs exiled him from the desert, sending him by wagon to Wrothgar. He happened to meet Kalik while traveling from Alik'r to Wrothgar when the caravan he was in was ambushed in Bangkorai by a group of bandits. Kalik by chance was also traveling thru this area on his Auridon Warhorse (which was bestowed to him by his friend, Darien Gautier). During this ambush, Kalik was able to rescue five hostages from the bandits. Kaotik was the first rescued, and Ras Kalik also recruited him to be in the Ash'abah tribe. These core Ash'abah tribesmen may never be seen together in travel as they partake in their own adventures but they always know what each other is doing; as they frequent a hideout in northern Bankorai. Their hideout an old Orc castle ruin, is kept watch by Nuzhimeh and she passes messages written between them, and frequently they also enjoy her company and her bed.

    The other men rescued were a Dunmer, a Breton and two Imperials. One of the Imperials was related to Abnur Tharn the Battlemage of the Imperial Elder Council (Ras Kalik's mentor in the Five Companions). Cinan Tharn is Abnur's drunkard treasure hunting illegitimate son, that was caught smuggling artifacts out of the Ayleid ruins in Cyrodiil and the elder Imperial Tyrus Septim is a retired battle-mage soldier and guard to the Tharn family. As much as Abnur Tharn hated his half-sister Euraxia, he dislikes his bas†ard son more. The Dunmer captive shackled to the Imperials looked familiar to Kalik from his time in Morrowind.... and he recognized him as Tythis Andromo a House Telvanni slave-owner and banker from Vvardenfell. During a rough interrogation to Tythis, Ras Kalik learnt why the bandits accosted him. The racist Dunmer was providing slaves as soldiers for the Three Banner War. The bandits were trying to negotiate a lucrative ransom for Andromo and the Imperials.... Kalik did not need any of this gold and he could never set Tythis free as he did with the two Imperials. His past involvement with slavery and war crimes, made Kalik's blood boil. He chose not to execute Tythis, as he figured the worse punishment for this former rich and opulent slave owner, is to now be a manservant for Ras Kalik and the tribe.

    Herzog Zwei the Genesis a Breton and also a prominent member of a cult of Xivkyn worshipers, was seeking to purchase an artifact from Cinan Tharn, before their capture. This artifact being an Ayelid artifact; the sword Sinweaver. After their rescue and the exchange of gold to Cinan for the sword he decided to slip away before Ras Kalik could question who he was, and why the Xivkyn worshippers wanted that sword. Herzog was headed to Nagastani — An Ayleid ruin in eastern Cyrodiil. He had heard rumors that the Sword would give him magical powers to become a Xivkyn, if he performed an Ayleid ritual at an old shrine hidden there. Equipped with the artifact sword, he was off to start his own adventure. Ras Kalik did indeed notice the sword however, an sent a letter to Jux Blackheart (whom also was interested in Ayleid treasures), to attempt to find Herzog and acquire the sword. (*Azani Blackheart in Elder Scroll's Oblivion is Jux's descendant some 747 years later)

    And so the Redguard, Imperial and Breton men have parted ways for now... While Ras Kalik is off to Elsweyr to encounter the latest threat to Tamriel, with Abnur Tharn and Sai Sahan - - DRAGONS!! Little does he know, a necromancer survived his attack on the Withered Hand, in Alik'r and the one known as Auriek Siet'ka is also following him to the land of the Khajiits. Cacique the Sage of Ius a Shaman mystic who has become attuned spiritually with Tu'whacca (Redguard God) and Ius (Animal God), after being burned severely by escaped dragons, is awaiting the arrival of Kalik to Senchal.
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