CP Overhaul Discussion

mursie · July 2019

First, let me start with an anecdote:

"I'm a new player. I created a character and began leveling him. I hear the cap is level 50. That's cool. As I level I get attribute points to buff my character. Oddly, I get more attribute points than levels. No rhyme or reason but at level 50 I have 64 attribute points. weird.

Now that i've hit end level 50, I'm ready for NO-CP pvp yes? wait I'm not? that's weird too. Turns out I need to grind 160 CP in order to have base gear to compete in NO-CP. anyone see the contradiction here? maybe my English is bad but I thought the point of NO-CP was that it didn't require CP? but apparently it does require it... 160 points of it... to actually compete. W - the literal - F!

OK - well i've grinded hard and now i'm MAX CP capped. I've left NO-CP pvp to crutch on my capped points that I found out I can club other people very easy with by spanking them with inflated CP stats that they don't have if they aren't max CP capped. this is great for PVP. what new player wouldn't want to join this time-gate wall and patiently take ever cap increasing beatdowns until they too are crutch point capped!! /s"

So - how to fix:

step 1: create toon and level from 0 to 50. receive 1 attribute point per level. 50 at max level.
step 2: PVP is capped at max level 50 with 50 attribute points. All end-game gear is level 50. PERIOD.

step 3: PVE has champion points above level 50. Every "X" champion points awards a single attribute point to spec into your character for further buffs to PVE ONLY. go forth and grind CP young PVE lad. you can become as powerful as you want. the sky's the limit. Exponentially increase CP levels to obviously make the climb a real carrot on a stick!!

done. simple. easy code - easy load - easy manage.

intuitive too. I think even a new player could understand it.

ZOS, you can thank me later.

Nestor · July 2019

The 64 Attribute Point thing makes sense if you played the game back when we had Vet Ranks. Leveled to 50, one SP each. Then 14 Levels of Vet Ranks, which were really Gear Ranks. Each of the Vet Ranks gave an Attribute Point. Dont remember what happen with Vet15 and Vet16....

Shame the devs initially thought people would play this like SPG TES and savor the character build. Rather than the MMO Trope of "Get to Max Level ASAP" and then wonder what happened to the game. So we have this convuluted end game progression that feels tacked on. Because, well, it is tacked on.

CP System is being looked at. We have no preliminary word from ZOS on what their plans are. I dont even want to guess

KerinKor · July 2019

The sorry CP system was only implemented because of ZOS' ridiculous belief that people wanted to play the 'other' two factions at a snail's pace due to over-tuned mobs and the group-or-die Craglorn farce .. those players who don't enjoy spending all their leveling time in groups were level-capped at VR10, VR11+VR12 were only available in Craglorn in ALL GROUP CONTENT!

When vast numbers of players chose NOT to do that and simply stopped playing .. as evidenced by the fact the game went F2P+MTX-riddled in less than 12 months from release .. ZOS had to scramble for an alternative solution ...

... Tamriel Unlimited and CPs were their answer, clearly without much/any thought to the long-term implications of such a progression system years down the road .. we're now years down the road and ZOS still seem to not have a clue how to fix the mess their knee-jerk reaction to the hated VR system.

ATomiX69 · July 2019

mursie wrote: »

step 3: PVE has champion points above level 50. Every "X" champion points awards a single attribute point to spec into your character for further buffs to PVE ONLY. go forth and grind CP young PVE lad. you can become as powerful as you want. the sky's the limit. Exponentially increase CP levels to obviously make the climb a real carrot on a stick!!

How's that a good system? Elaborate please, because I cant see grinding CP being actual endgame unless you want to turn this game into an Asian Grind MMORPG.
There need to be some stat caps and your system would literally do nothing but remove the CP system we have and expand attribute points.
Such a kind of system has 0 customization for PvE if youre a stam dd youre gonna get X health attributes and youre gonna stuff the rest into stamina and for mag same *** just instead of stacking stam you stack mag.
I assume you want to keep the attributes the way they are right now (health, stam, mag), unless you wanna change how attributes work and introduce new attributes, I dont see this system as a good solution.
The game shouldnt reward you for putting 1k hours into cp grinding in spellscar or skyreach, the game should reward you for being actually good at the game.

CAB_Life · July 2019

KerinKor wrote: »

The sorry CP system was only implemented because of ZOS' ridiculous belief that people wanted to play the 'other' two factions at a snail's pace due to over-tuned mobs and the group-or-die Craglorn farce .. those players who don't enjoy spending all their leveling time in groups were level-capped at VR10, VR11+VR12 were only available in Craglorn in ALL GROUP CONTENT!

When vast numbers of players chose NOT to do that and simply stopped playing .. as evidenced by the fact the game went F2P+MTX-riddled in less than 12 months from release .. ZOS had to scramble for an alternative solution ...

... Tamriel Unlimited and CPs were their answer, clearly without much/any thought to the long-term implications of such a progression system years down the road .. we're now years down the road and ZOS still seem to not have a clue how to fix the mess their knee-jerk reaction to the hated VR system.

Well, you could see how volatile the system was during its inception when people powerleveled in delves (or Rift zombie farm) to CP cap, filling all the trees, and absolutely obliterated people/ mobs.

ArchMikem · July 2019

mursie wrote: »

So - how to fix:

step 1: create toon and level from 0 to 50. receive 1 attribute point per level. 50 at max level.
step 2: PVP is capped at max level 50 with 50 attribute points. All end-game gear is level 50. PERIOD.

step 3: PVE has champion points above level 50. Every "X" champion points awards a single attribute point to spec into your character for further buffs to PVE ONLY. go forth and grind CP young PVE lad. you can become as powerful as you want. the sky's the limit. Exponentially increase CP levels to obviously make the climb a real carrot on a stick!!

done. simple. easy code - easy load - easy manage.

So then in PvE land there would be players walking around with like, 100,000 max Magic and Stamina?

snarkomatic · July 2019

ArchMikem wrote: »

mursie wrote: »

So - how to fix:

step 1: create toon and level from 0 to 50. receive 1 attribute point per level. 50 at max level.
step 2: PVP is capped at max level 50 with 50 attribute points. All end-game gear is level 50. PERIOD.

step 3: PVE has champion points above level 50. Every "X" champion points awards a single attribute point to spec into your character for further buffs to PVE ONLY. go forth and grind CP young PVE lad. you can become as powerful as you want. the sky's the limit. Exponentially increase CP levels to obviously make the climb a real carrot on a stick!!

done. simple. easy code - easy load - easy manage.

So then in PvE land there would be players walking around with like, 100,000 max Magic and Stamina?

Yeah, why get rid of the power creep when we could just make it exponentially more awful instead?

Vercingetorix · July 2019

snarkomatic wrote: »

ArchMikem wrote: »

mursie wrote: »

So - how to fix:

step 1: create toon and level from 0 to 50. receive 1 attribute point per level. 50 at max level.
step 2: PVP is capped at max level 50 with 50 attribute points. All end-game gear is level 50. PERIOD.

step 3: PVE has champion points above level 50. Every "X" champion points awards a single attribute point to spec into your character for further buffs to PVE ONLY. go forth and grind CP young PVE lad. you can become as powerful as you want. the sky's the limit. Exponentially increase CP levels to obviously make the climb a real carrot on a stick!!

done. simple. easy code - easy load - easy manage.

So then in PvE land there would be players walking around with like, 100,000 max Magic and Stamina?

Yeah, why get rid of the power creep when we could just make it exponentially more awful instead?

Worse yet, by using OP's suggestion let's make the community even MORE toxic by encouraging standards like "1000+ CP required".

dcam86b14_ESO · July 2019

let's raise levels every expansion and give players a reason to do more content. As it stands there are a least a few zones in-game you can skip over on your way to 50.

idk im just trying to put in an idea, don't @ me lol

mursie · July 2019

how you gate your power creep for PVE is up to you. 5 years into game.. most players aren't traversing north of 1500 CP. scale accordingly.

but to be matter of fact - who cares. if you release new PVE content designed for 1500+CP by having pve endgame with higher health levels so be it.

it's a very simple load compared to the procs and %'s you have now.

the best part is - you can scale what an attribute point rewards on stats and how many CP gives a new attribute point very quickly. if you truly believe creep has gone to far.

DocFrost72 · July 2019

Nestor wrote: »

The 64 Attribute Point thing makes sense if you played the game back when we had Vet Ranks. Leveled to 50, one SP each. Then 14 Levels of Vet Ranks, which were really Gear Ranks. Each of the Vet Ranks gave an Attribute Point. Dont remember what happen with Vet15 and Vet16....

If I remember correctly, level 1 didn't (and I believe still doesn't) give you an attribute point. 66-1. Level 50 was VR1, you went right from 49 to vet 1. 66-2. It used to be 62 skill points, then imperial city happened.

Or I could be fancifully remembering the past. I'm 87% sure I'm right though, I did a lot of vet grinding back then.

On topic:

OP step one would lower either max stat values or the degree to which you can fine tune them. Not dastardly in and of itself.

Step two would erase several material tiers and f up the crafting skill lines. Not an easy solution like it seems.

Both of those are relics of the Vet system.

I'd need you to explain step 3 a different way. It reads as though you're saying reverse the current scaling system where new folks earn power faster in favor of more cp giving more power the higher you get.

I don't think I need to tell you why someone like me at 1200+ cp thinks that might be a touch...unappealing to newcomers.

"Sure you can be like me. If you have five years to spare. Oh I'll be even stronger by the time you get here, too."

rotaugen454 · July 2019

DocFrost72 wrote: »

Nestor wrote: »

The 64 Attribute Point thing makes sense if you played the game back when we had Vet Ranks. Leveled to 50, one SP each. Then 14 Levels of Vet Ranks, which were really Gear Ranks. Each of the Vet Ranks gave an Attribute Point. Dont remember what happen with Vet15 and Vet16....

I don't think I need to tell you why someone like me at 1200+ cp thinks that might be a touch...unappealing to newcomers.

"Sure you can be like me. If you have five years to spare. Oh I'll be even stronger by the time you get here, too."

I imagine that a lot of us here have 1200+ CP. It has to be daunting to newcomers. I started a new character Sunday but start off with max CP. I forgot to use them until level 16. It went from easy on every quest to a walkthrough. It’s a big difference.

mursie · July 2019

very simple.

1 attribute point of stam = 100 stam scale as you see fit ZOS
ok - at level 50 you have 50 attribute points that create the base level game of foundational stats. Scale as necessary to equal base content.

now - above and beyond that, CP can be earned via XP as it is today and all it does is give additional attribute points at a scaling ZOS deems acceptable. You can even cap it during different DLC/patches such as the 810 cap today.

it is without question a power creep. as any mmo has. but it is easily calculated, easily maintained, and easily scaled at any point.

further - it only applies to PVE. all pvp is end-game level 50 , 50 attribute points. even the gear is end-game level 50. CP is nothing but a stat power creep for PVE scaled in as simple a fashion as you see fit.

KISS. Keep it Simple - Stupid

No_Division · July 2019

only way to salvage CP, without making the class/skill audit feel like it flatten the classes, is to move towards a hybrid spell crafting point system with individual class based CP trees.

Then and only then, can the system be individually adjusted without promoting power creep. So like if templars want to deal more dmg/defense, then the CP system will let them at cost of their healing since it should give both stat boosts but skill morph changes similar to how arena weapons adjust core skills.

DocFrost72 · July 2019

mursie wrote: »

very simple.

1 attribute point of stam = 100 stam scale as you see fit ZOS
ok - at level 50 you have 50 attribute points that create the base level game of foundational stats. Scale as necessary to equal base content.

now - above and beyond that, CP can be earned via XP as it is today and all it does is give additional attribute points at a scaling ZOS deems acceptable. You can even cap it during different DLC/patches such as the 810 cap today.

it is without question a power creep. as any mmo has. but it is easily calculated, easily maintained, and easily scaled at any point.

KISS. Keep it Simple - Stupid

Thank you for explaining. So we're clear, earning CP does increase your max attributes up to 300 cp, so it already does do one thing you're suggesting.

Now can you also address this part of my post?

Step two would erase several material tiers and f up the crafting skill lines. Not an easy solution like it seems.

Heyodude · July 2019

Nestor wrote: »

The 64 Attribute Point thing makes sense if you played the game back when we had Vet Ranks. Leveled to 50, one SP each. Then 14 Levels of Vet Ranks, which were really Gear Ranks. Each of the Vet Ranks gave an Attribute Point. Dont remember what happen with Vet15 and Vet16....

Shame the devs initially thought people would play this like SPG TES and savor the character build. Rather than the MMO Trope of "Get to Max Level ASAP" and then wonder what happened to the game. So we have this convuluted end game progression that feels tacked on. Because, well, it is tacked on.

CP System is being looked at. We have no preliminary word from ZOS on what their plans are. I dont even want to guess

they should just delete the cp system all together and go with flat bonus progressions that count towards pve or pvp, never both at the same time, then it wouldnt be so convoluted and zos wouldnt have to f-k up both experiences trying to change one or the other.

Nestor · July 2019

@DocFrost72

Yep, that us why we have 64 and not 66. L1 does not get a point, and L50 and Vet1 were the same. Although, there was a brief moment where you were labeled L50, then it went to Veteran 1. I even have a Screenshot from one of my alts showing the L50 label

On another interesting side note that has nothing to do with this topic, there used to be an NPC that was L55. You found him in the final quest wrap up area in The Rift after fighting Sinmur. I have a screenshot of him somewhere too.

rfennell_ESO · July 2019

Nestor wrote: »

The 64 Attribute Point thing makes sense if you played the game back when we had Vet Ranks. Leveled to 50, one SP each. Then 14 Levels of Vet Ranks, which were really Gear Ranks. Each of the Vet Ranks gave an Attribute Point. Dont remember what happen with Vet15 and Vet16....

Shame the devs initially thought people would play this like SPG TES and savor the character build. Rather than the MMO Trope of "Get to Max Level ASAP" and then wonder what happened to the game. So we have this convuluted end game progression that feels tacked on. Because, well, it is tacked on.

CP System is being looked at. We have no preliminary word from ZOS on what their plans are. I dont even want to guess

Vet15 and 16 were scrapped before imperial city. As I recall there were still items and mats that were annotated with vr15/16 on pts.

I know my opinion will be unpopular on Vet ranks... I would have kept them. Mostly because they would have been a far greater system than the CP debacle is/was/willbe.

Of course I would have also kept soft caps and that whole system as well...

They easily could have just let you reforge items to a higher vr level for mats (if that one comes up, which it will).

Rungar · July 2019

if you dont give an equal amount of mag/sram and health it will just be another nightmare because players will choose the dmg stat at the expense of everything else and youll get something worse than now.

if you give all three stats players will become more well rounded by greater access to utility and evasion skills.

that being said, i think if you gave the right amount ( im thinking 10k/stat at max cp) , but gave the bulk of it upfront (5k by cp 300 you could actually improve performance while resolving some longstanding problems.

Stat pools affect everything after all and minimize calculations. If you do a little math you can see that many of these cps can simply be replaced with flat stats for a similar effect. Since everyone is hellbent on specialization this kinda curbs that because at the 10k mark you wont get a giant primary stat increase ( certainly wouldnt cover the +40% dmg you get from cp now) but would get a substantial secondary stat increase which would aid the survival of the average player.

tanks get to do more dmg and have better utility
dds get better utility or evasion and health
healers actually have something to heal
armor is important again ( since there no ironclad /hardy to bail you out)

i would be for a cp system that provides a flat and even stat pool bonus and all the actually choices be not directly related to combat but rather focused on utility.

like mount speed or resurrection speed and other indirect, but relevant things like that.

Katahdin · July 2019

A lot pf players like CP PvP so no to taking away CP PvP and only have CP in PvE.

There are CP and no CP campsigns for a reason. Stop trying to take away other people's choices because you don't like it.

Qbiken · August 2019

Imagine if there was an option to play PvP without champion points, and an option to play with champion points?
That way you could choose what to play and still enjoy the game

Crazy idea I know.......

D0PAMINE · August 2019

Katahdin wrote: »

A lot pf players like CP PvP so no to taking away CP PvP and only have CP in PvE.

There are CP and no CP campsigns for a reason. Stop trying to take away other people's choices because you don't like it.

Agreed.

rfennell_ESO · August 2019

Katahdin wrote: »

A lot pf players like CP PvP so no to taking away CP PvP and only have CP in PvE.

There are CP and no CP campsigns for a reason. Stop trying to take away other people's choices because you don't like it.

The mere fact that they have to support No CP and CP is indicative that the CP system is a mess.