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Why does it feel like ZOS hates Magicka users?
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Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I don't think the dmg output by either spec is really all that different. Sure, high end stam generally parses 5-10k higher, which is a pretty notable margin, but those are among the rare outliers. What is different is related to what someone mentioned before. With the amount of dmg going out, players are forced to play pretty defensively in PvP, meaning shields and heavy armor and stacking into health and resistances. Both can obviously do this, as there are a LOT of tanky sets available (knock that ish off Zos. I'm tired of fighting tanks. It's boring), BUT, and here is where the difference lies, only stam can do this while still putting out huge dmg numbers.
.
I mentioned something like that on PTS regarding the cast time on ultis. In my opinion, the worst mistake done by ZoS was to nerf to oblivion all the defensive options we had, including evasion, shields, permablocking, some skills as sparks and old cinder storm, healing, while at the same time making HA too good to ignore it. I mean, extra healing, health and resistances just for wearing HA is much more useful than the extra wpn dmg on medium (it is even weaker than old wpn dmg procs on heavy) or pen on light (you can always use sharpen + spinner's + lover). The meta went from a gunslinger style (in which you had to burn your enemy asap) to a tank on roids (throw everything at me, I don't care... now it's my turn).
There's no way medium or light armor can do anything against tanks so a way to "solve" is to put a cast time on ulti that allows the LA/MA guy dodgeroll or shield+block, and that's a very lazy solutionSarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique0 -
p00tx✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I don't think the dmg output by either spec is really all that different. Sure, high end stam generally parses 5-10k higher, which is a pretty notable margin, but those are among the rare outliers. What is different is related to what someone mentioned before. With the amount of dmg going out, players are forced to play pretty defensively in PvP, meaning shields and heavy armor and stacking into health and resistances. Both can obviously do this, as there are a LOT of tanky sets available (knock that ish off Zos. I'm tired of fighting tanks. It's boring), BUT, and here is where the difference lies, only stam can do this while still putting out huge dmg numbers.
.
I mentioned something like that on PTS regarding the cast time on ultis. In my opinion, the worst mistake done by ZoS was to nerf to oblivion all the defensive options we had, including evasion, shields, permablocking, some skills as sparks and old cinder storm, healing, while at the same time making HA too good to ignore it. I mean, extra healing, health and resistances just for wearing HA is much more useful than the extra wpn dmg on medium (it is even weaker than old wpn dmg procs on heavy) or pen on light (you can always use sharpen + spinner's + lover). The meta went from a gunslinger style (in which you had to burn your enemy asap) to a tank on roids (throw everything at me, I don't care... now it's my turn).
There's no way medium or light armor can do anything against tanks so a way to "solve" is to put a cast time on ulti that allows the LA/MA guy dodgeroll or shield+block, and that's a very lazy solution
They need a dmg detriment for HA. No decent PvE tank (in heavy armor) is putting out anything more than MAYBE 8k max dps, on a good day, so losing more dmg won't really hurt them. Wearing heavy body pieces though should not be rewarding in terms of dmg, and should actually provide the opposite. Give it a 50%-75% dmg debuff and it'll force the healbots out of heavy armor (heals will suck) and force the damage dealers out of it (attacks will suck). This willcause a slight problem with PvE tank's self-heals, and will have to accounted for, but not too severe since most tanks don't rely on wpn or spell dmg for their self-heals. Tanks are still going to be...tanks in PvP (can't kill anyone and pretty much just stand there and distract the dumber players who don't know to just ignore them). I don't get it, but to each their own.
As it is, and like you said, there is currently no notable downside to wearing heavy armor in PvP, and that needs to change.Edited by p00tx on July 30, 2019 10:37PMPC/Xbox NA
Unchained | Unstoppable | Mindmender | Swashbuckler Supreme | Planes Breaker | Dawnbringer | Godslayer | Immortal Redeemer | Gryphon Heart | Tick-tock Tormentor | Dro-m'Athra Destroyer | Stormproof | Grand Overlord | Grand Mastercrafter | Master Grappler | Tamriel Hero0 -
InvictusApollo✭✭✭✭✭
✭
False. Magicka DDs in pvp have great advantage of being ranged builds (except magblades now).Billy_Badascii wrote: »It feels like any sustainable damage dealer in this game is a stamina build. ESPECIALLY IN PVP! Why is that?
False. Almost every good stamina build requires magicka based skills. For example Dark Cloak for super tanky stamblade. Shadow Disguise for stamina gankblades. Streak, Critical Surge and Dark Deal for almost every stamsorc. Spirit guardian for Jiffy (stamina necromancer). Bird of Prey, Shimmering Shield, Ice Fortress for stamden. Extended Ritual, Total Dark and Mist Form for stamplar.Billy_Badascii wrote: »Well for one stamina users only need one resource. STAMINA! They can max out as much stamina/stamina regen as they can and that's all they need!
Use tri stat food and Glyphs of Prismatic Defense to increase your stamina at least to 14k. This is enough for break free and blocking on magicka builds.Billy_Badascii wrote: »But what's that you're out of stamina as a magicka user? haha u might as well just afk and die.
Ofcourse they get lots of gap closers since they are mostly melee.Billy_Badascii wrote: »On top of that stamina users get incredibly powerful attacks and a ton of gap closers for melee.
Not really. It is actually equally easy to tank in light armour as with heavy or medium armour. You simply don't know how to theorcycraft. For example my Magplar in light armour is tanky AF. Tankiness isn't only about resistances. You have to build for Damage Mitigation witch takes into account resistances, major and minor protection, maim and most importantly: self healing per second.Billy_Badascii wrote: »And let's be honest it's much easier to tank in medium/heavy armor as a stamina user than a light armor wearing magicka user.Billy_Badascii wrote: »As I look at most all of the skills for magicka users I seem to be missing spells almost every game, including Elder Scrolls, used to have.
Mages Wrath and Power Overload on Sorcerer. Also Lightning Staff light and heavy attacks.Billy_Badascii wrote: »Where's the lightning bolts?
Winter's Revenge and light and heavy attacks from Frost Staff.Billy_Badascii wrote: »Where's the ice orbs?
Swallow Soul, Siphoning Attacks, Sap Essence and Invigorating Drain.Billy_Badascii wrote: »Where's the life draining?
In game.Billy_Badascii wrote: »Just............. where is it all?
Most used stamina abilities are weapon abilities which consist of different weapon slashes and nothing trully flashy or cool. This was the exact reason why I haven't been playing stamina builds for a very long time.Billy_Badascii wrote: »It's like you guys gave stamina users all the coolest single spammable skills in the game where they can literally just spam the same attack over and over and over but magicka users don't get anything of the kind.
Does "tiny little attacks" are weaved into deadly combos that kill off many players with a burst damage. I feel like you are refering to Sorcerers abilities so here is the best combo:Billy_Badascii wrote: »They have to lead with tiny little attacks hoping to proc one that allows them to cast their big attack with no cast, or constantly weave other spells while waiting for them to go off.
LA -> Hasunting Curse -> LA -> Fiery Reach -> LA -> LA Heaven's Wrath -> LA -> Crystal Frags Proc
I use this combo to delete almost 90% of all Cyrodill players.
Please do run around just spamming dizzying swing without keeping up your buffs. You will be in that 90% of playersBilly_Badascii wrote: »It just doesn't feel the same when you run around with a sword spamming dizzying swing waiting for that right moment to pop your ults as opposed to magicka who has to weave 3-4 skills to try to output the same damage.
Not "Magicka users", just you and other magkicka players who don't know how to properly theorycraft.Billy_Badascii wrote: »Magicka users don't feel like they have any advantage at all over stamina users for dps or survivability and being a magicka user is just a huge drawback to the lack of stamina to be able to avoid and block damage, or break cc's.
Yes you are wrong. Furthermore I don't care what you feel. Neither should you. Facts don't care about yours or mine feelings And the fact is that magicka builds are very good if you know how to theorycraft them and play them. You most likely run one that is vastly inferior to anything I have come up and you struggle with stamina users just like I have before I learned how to make better builds and play the game.Billy_Badascii wrote: »Am I wrong? Tell me if I am but that's how the game feels.
My tip for you is to learn weaknesses of stamina builds and exploit them. For example you should learn basic stamina combos and learn to disrupt them with CC and well timed blocks.
In conclusion I have two news for you. One goos and one bad.
The good one is that magicka builds are very good.
And the bad one is that your skills are still too low to use them to their fullest potential.
Edited by InvictusApollo on July 30, 2019 11:09PM3 -
Iskiab✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
Traditional MMO rankings in pve dps are:
#1 Rogues
#2 People who like wearing dresses
#3 Warrior Types
#4 Hybrid healing and damage types
#5 Full healers/support
Though in every game no matter where mages fall they always talk like they should be the highest because of; cross dressing, having to use a walking stick, wearing a dress means they have less armour, pve rotations are hard so and mage is the hardest so should be highest, etc...Edited by Iskiab on July 31, 2019 12:00AMLooking for any guildies I used to play with:
Havoc Warhammer - Alair
LoC EQ2 - Mayi and Iskiab
PRX and Tabula Rasa - Rift - Iskiab
Or anyone else I used to play games with in guilds I’ve forgotten1 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I don't think the dmg output by either spec is really all that different. Sure, high end stam generally parses 5-10k higher, which is a pretty notable margin, but those are among the rare outliers. What is different is related to what someone mentioned before. With the amount of dmg going out, players are forced to play pretty defensively in PvP, meaning shields and heavy armor and stacking into health and resistances. Both can obviously do this, as there are a LOT of tanky sets available (knock that ish off Zos. I'm tired of fighting tanks. It's boring), BUT, and here is where the difference lies, only stam can do this while still putting out huge dmg numbers.
.
I mentioned something like that on PTS regarding the cast time on ultis. In my opinion, the worst mistake done by ZoS was to nerf to oblivion all the defensive options we had, including evasion, shields, permablocking, some skills as sparks and old cinder storm, healing, while at the same time making HA too good to ignore it. I mean, extra healing, health and resistances just for wearing HA is much more useful than the extra wpn dmg on medium (it is even weaker than old wpn dmg procs on heavy) or pen on light (you can always use sharpen + spinner's + lover). The meta went from a gunslinger style (in which you had to burn your enemy asap) to a tank on roids (throw everything at me, I don't care... now it's my turn).
There's no way medium or light armor can do anything against tanks so a way to "solve" is to put a cast time on ulti that allows the LA/MA guy dodgeroll or shield+block, and that's a very lazy solution
They need a dmg detriment for HA. No decent PvE tank (in heavy armor) is putting out anything more than MAYBE 8k max dps, on a good day, so losing more dmg won't really hurt them. Wearing heavy body pieces though should not be rewarding in terms of dmg, and should actually provide the opposite. Give it a 50%-75% dmg debuff and it'll force the healbots out of heavy armor (heals will suck) and force the damage dealers out of it (attacks will suck). This willcause a slight problem with PvE tank's self-heals, and will have to accounted for, but not too severe since most tanks don't rely on wpn or spell dmg for their self-heals. Tanks are still going to be...tanks in PvP (can't kill anyone and pretty much just stand there and distract the dumber players who don't know to just ignore them). I don't get it, but to each their own.
As it is, and like you said, there is currently no notable downside to wearing heavy armor in PvP, and that needs to change.
The helaing in PvE for tanks could be easily solved with a battle spirit kind of mechanic in which all tanks get extra healing for wearing 5 pieces HA outside cyroSarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique0 -
I want to thank everyone for their responses. I learned some from reading this.
Also there was a huge lack of trolls and idiots posting replies and all of these replies seem halfway thought out and intelligent. That's a nice change from other forums I've been on.
Personally I like magicka because I guess I've always been the caster type of player. I'll stick with it and take in some advice from the thread.
Thanks guys!1 -
nah dude,
Zos hate HYBRID builds.
This made me laugh. OK you win hehe.
Now if damage was based on your Stamina and Magicka stat and not your "max" magicka and stamina, there would be possibilities for hybrid builds if they throw in a weapon that returns both stamina and magicka on a heavy attack.0 -
NBrookus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭@Billy_Badascii No affiliation, but watch this recent video to see how carefully a stam build manages their magicka resource, and this is a stamsorc that doesn't juggle a ton of class magicka skills. (Spoiler: uses Dizzy Sparingly.).
https://youtu.be/4rAGv18_gwA
Long term, playing a variety of classes and specs help provide insight into the other side. While stam and mag have their pros and cons, overall I feel like they have never been closer in potential power, altho that power isn't equivalent in all areas. You don't see stam builds bombing transitus shrines, but you also don't see many mag builds playing ring around the tree. If you are struggling on a class versus another class or spec, spend some time duelling those classes with people near your skill level or just above. And when someone destroys you open world PVP and you don't know why, most players will respond to a politely worded question on a mechanic.0 -
@Billy_Badascii No affiliation, but watch this recent video to see how carefully a stam build manages their magicka resource, and this is a stamsorc that doesn't juggle a ton of class magicka skills. (Spoiler: uses Dizzy Sparingly.).
I feel like this video is kinda proving my point.
He's a stamina build that can make full utilization of his build on only 8k magicka.
If you go look at any of the pvp fights for magicka users especially in the 1vx category they ALWAYS have like 15-20k stamina, draining huge resources on what could have been max magicka just so they can dodge roll and break stuns.
But the video you posted meh, he doesn't need 15-20k magicka he can just use 8k and be JUUUUST FINE.
4 -
Saril_Durzam✭✭✭✭Billy_Badascii wrote: »@Billy_Badascii No affiliation, but watch this recent video to see how carefully a stam build manages their magicka resource, and this is a stamsorc that doesn't juggle a ton of class magicka skills. (Spoiler: uses Dizzy Sparingly.).
I feel like this video is kinda proving my point.
He's a stamina build that can make full utilization of his build on only 8k magicka.
If you go look at any of the pvp fights for magicka users especially in the 1vx category they ALWAYS have like 15-20k stamina, draining huge resources on what could have been max magicka just so they can dodge roll and break stuns.
But the video you posted meh, he doesn't need 15-20k magicka he can just use 8k and be JUUUUST FINE.
Yup. Its well known. Stamina users dont need high magicka pool, mag characters must use tri stat enchants or so. Nothing new.2 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Far from truth, on live both magplar and magsorc feel good and cozy both in PVE and PVP.1 -
MartiniDaniels✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭And tbh this was stupid situation when ranged magicka builds were doing same damage as melee builds in static fights. Melee is more risky, melee requires more clever positioning, so melee base dps should be higher. Still it should be melee vs ranged, not magicka vs stamina. As for now melee magicka is in worst position, though it should be opposite, melee magicka should have highest dps cause those builds are both squishy and melee.1 -
Saril_Durzam✭✭✭✭MartiniDaniels wrote: »And tbh this was stupid situation when ranged magicka builds were doing same damage as melee builds in static fights. Melee is more risky, melee requires more clever positioning, so melee base dps should be higher. Still it should be melee vs ranged, not magicka vs stamina. As for now melee magicka is in worst position, though it should be opposite, melee magicka should have highest dps cause those builds are both squishy and melee.
You´re right about melee should deal more damage. The truth is, bow also deals same damage as magicka, with better sustain, selfhealing, armor and resists. Plus, in most trials you can go/you MUST go in melee, either stamina and magicka. OF course, most stamina players feel this is right... shrug. Logical. Your class MUST be the best class.
To people that play both classes, there is a difference.0 -
SugaComa✭✭✭✭✭
In PvP most of the fights start on range. It is also much easier to keep your opponent in sight, because your perspective is much wider.
Does anyone recognize the real imbalance here?
Stop playing first person and play third person and you will have the same wide field of view as everyone0 -
Saril_Durzam wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »And tbh this was stupid situation when ranged magicka builds were doing same damage as melee builds in static fights. Melee is more risky, melee requires more clever positioning, so melee base dps should be higher. Still it should be melee vs ranged, not magicka vs stamina. As for now melee magicka is in worst position, though it should be opposite, melee magicka should have highest dps cause those builds are both squishy and melee.
You´re right about melee should deal more damage. The truth is, bow also deals same damage as magicka, with better sustain, selfhealing, armor and resists. Plus, in most trials you can go/you MUST go in melee, either stamina and magicka. OF course, most stamina players feel this is right... shrug. Logical. Your class MUST be the best class.
To people that play both classes, there is a difference.
I'm fine with melee doing more damage than ranged. I get that.
But if melee have infinite gap closers and it's basically impossible to kite anyone then it's definitely NOT OK.
And that's what this game is. There's no kiting here. You can't root anyone who can't break it an immediately dash to you like other MMO's. You can't pin someone down, roll 30 yards away and get 3 or 4 free shots off then push them back another 20 yards. NOTHING of the sort.
So as long as all classes are always in melee range of each other quite easily I don't believe melee should be doing more damage than ranged at all. When they start throwing some cooldowns on the gap closers for melee, and add some teleport skills for magicka users THEN I might agree with that statement.0 -
SidraWillowsky✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭ScruffyWhiskers wrote: »So we can buff magicka melee skills like concealed weapon?
ZOS: "No."
"Oh, and it's a magblade skill? HELL no."1 -
Saril_Durzam✭✭✭✭Billy_Badascii wrote: »Saril_Durzam wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »And tbh this was stupid situation when ranged magicka builds were doing same damage as melee builds in static fights. Melee is more risky, melee requires more clever positioning, so melee base dps should be higher. Still it should be melee vs ranged, not magicka vs stamina. As for now melee magicka is in worst position, though it should be opposite, melee magicka should have highest dps cause those builds are both squishy and melee.
You´re right about melee should deal more damage. The truth is, bow also deals same damage as magicka, with better sustain, selfhealing, armor and resists. Plus, in most trials you can go/you MUST go in melee, either stamina and magicka. OF course, most stamina players feel this is right... shrug. Logical. Your class MUST be the best class.
To people that play both classes, there is a difference.
I'm fine with melee doing more damage than ranged. I get that.
But if melee have infinite gap closers and it's basically impossible to kite anyone then it's definitely NOT OK.
And that's what this game is. There's no kiting here. You can't root anyone who can't break it an immediately dash to you like other MMO's. You can't pin someone down, roll 30 yards away and get 3 or 4 free shots off then push them back another 20 yards. NOTHING of the sort.
So as long as all classes are always in melee range of each other quite easily I don't believe melee should be doing more damage than ranged at all. When they start throwing some cooldowns on the gap closers for melee, and add some teleport skills for magicka users THEN I might agree with that statement.
TBH the "melee deals more damage" comes from PvE raids of other MMOs, which couldnt swap weapons as you can in ESO. In such raids you had to eat damage so usually have more damage to compensate the risk and the DPS you lost while moving.
It doesnt work in PvP. It should be a PvE reason and doesnt work in ESO, considering you can with pressing a single button, become a ranged DPSer.0 -
Saril_Durzam wrote: »Billy_Badascii wrote: »Saril_Durzam wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »And tbh this was stupid situation when ranged magicka builds were doing same damage as melee builds in static fights. Melee is more risky, melee requires more clever positioning, so melee base dps should be higher. Still it should be melee vs ranged, not magicka vs stamina. As for now melee magicka is in worst position, though it should be opposite, melee magicka should have highest dps cause those builds are both squishy and melee.
You´re right about melee should deal more damage. The truth is, bow also deals same damage as magicka, with better sustain, selfhealing, armor and resists. Plus, in most trials you can go/you MUST go in melee, either stamina and magicka. OF course, most stamina players feel this is right... shrug. Logical. Your class MUST be the best class.
To people that play both classes, there is a difference.
I'm fine with melee doing more damage than ranged. I get that.
But if melee have infinite gap closers and it's basically impossible to kite anyone then it's definitely NOT OK.
And that's what this game is. There's no kiting here. You can't root anyone who can't break it an immediately dash to you like other MMO's. You can't pin someone down, roll 30 yards away and get 3 or 4 free shots off then push them back another 20 yards. NOTHING of the sort.
So as long as all classes are always in melee range of each other quite easily I don't believe melee should be doing more damage than ranged at all. When they start throwing some cooldowns on the gap closers for melee, and add some teleport skills for magicka users THEN I might agree with that statement.
TBH the "melee deals more damage" comes from PvE raids of other MMOs, which couldnt swap weapons as you can in ESO. In such raids you had to eat damage so usually have more damage to compensate the risk and the DPS you lost while moving.
It doesnt work in PvP. It should be a PvE reason and doesnt work in ESO, considering you can with pressing a single button, become a ranged DPSer.
Still this isn't a discussion of melee vs ranged, because I think stam ranged users still have a huge advantage over mag ranged users. Stam skills have great aoe's, snares, dots, direct damage and spammable stuns. And in the pathetic attempt to balance things they can ALSO heal.
Like wow really? The ability to break as many cc's as you like and dodge roll attacks more often should offset the ability to heal enough. Mag = heals, stam = dodge/cc break.
But no magicka users really have no clear advantage to play over stamina at least that I can see.1 -
Saril_Durzam✭✭✭✭Billy_Badascii wrote: »Saril_Durzam wrote: »Billy_Badascii wrote: »Saril_Durzam wrote: »MartiniDaniels wrote: »And tbh this was stupid situation when ranged magicka builds were doing same damage as melee builds in static fights. Melee is more risky, melee requires more clever positioning, so melee base dps should be higher. Still it should be melee vs ranged, not magicka vs stamina. As for now melee magicka is in worst position, though it should be opposite, melee magicka should have highest dps cause those builds are both squishy and melee.
You´re right about melee should deal more damage. The truth is, bow also deals same damage as magicka, with better sustain, selfhealing, armor and resists. Plus, in most trials you can go/you MUST go in melee, either stamina and magicka. OF course, most stamina players feel this is right... shrug. Logical. Your class MUST be the best class.
To people that play both classes, there is a difference.
I'm fine with melee doing more damage than ranged. I get that.
But if melee have infinite gap closers and it's basically impossible to kite anyone then it's definitely NOT OK.
And that's what this game is. There's no kiting here. You can't root anyone who can't break it an immediately dash to you like other MMO's. You can't pin someone down, roll 30 yards away and get 3 or 4 free shots off then push them back another 20 yards. NOTHING of the sort.
So as long as all classes are always in melee range of each other quite easily I don't believe melee should be doing more damage than ranged at all. When they start throwing some cooldowns on the gap closers for melee, and add some teleport skills for magicka users THEN I might agree with that statement.
TBH the "melee deals more damage" comes from PvE raids of other MMOs, which couldnt swap weapons as you can in ESO. In such raids you had to eat damage so usually have more damage to compensate the risk and the DPS you lost while moving.
It doesnt work in PvP. It should be a PvE reason and doesnt work in ESO, considering you can with pressing a single button, become a ranged DPSer.
Still this isn't a discussion of melee vs ranged, because I think stam ranged users still have a huge advantage over mag ranged users. Stam skills have great aoe's, snares, dots, direct damage and spammable stuns. And in the pathetic attempt to balance things they can ALSO heal.
Like wow really? The ability to break as many cc's as you like and dodge roll attacks more often should offset the ability to heal enough. Mag = heals, stam = dodge/cc break.
But no magicka users really have no clear advantage to play over stamina at least that I can see.
Yeha i know, i commented it earlier. The melee vs ranged is the issue the Stamina players say to back up his class dominance. And it´s false.0
