I don’t like Khamira. There I said it.

TelvanniWizard · July 2019

Donny_Vito wrote: »

snarkomatic wrote: »

She's not a Mary Sue (and neither was Rey). Girls you don't like are not the same thing as badly written characters. Girls you don't like are not the same thing as forced diversity. Get over yourselves.

Rey was a total Mary Sue. Everything she did was perfect and she excelled at it, but they give you this impression she's a normal female like every other girl out there. She literally had no flaws, except for the fact she was abandoned as a child which actually works in her favor. How you can argue she wasn't a Mary Sue character is beyond me.

Like when she was a perfect lightsaber fighter without having ever used one, or when she defeated the bad guy using the force like, for the first time... Pretty lame

Luke had to train really hard to achieve those things, and still in Endor wasn't a total master.

Gandrhulf_Harbard · July 2019

Erelah wrote: »

In the RPing groups I have joined if Khamira was handed in as a player sheet with that back story we would have called her a Mary Sue and asked for some flaws be added in. Talked with the player about making her different than themselves.

As a table-top RPG DM of over 20 years, if I had Khamira's background handed to me as a PC background I wouldn't even waste my breath talking to the player about how to "fix it", I'd say no. Unless the player was 1st timer, and then all assistance would be given to fix it, and explain why it needed fixing.

All The Best

Kr3do · July 2019

Some people in this thread seem to be projecting their feelings onto others.

Khamira would be just as bland and ridiculous if she was male, believe it or not.

cyclonus11 · July 2019

Kr3do wrote: »

Khamira would be just as bland and ridiculous if she was male, believe it or not.

Perhaps, but there likely wouldn't be a thread about it, and there definitely wouldn't be a "name" for it (like Mary Sue).

WolfingHour · July 2019

Conflating khamira's character with the Deus ex machina, magical plot device properties of the pendant is rather disingenuous. Same thing with the toning down of Abnur's abilities, which the script ascribed to age - that didn't happen because of Khamira but because the player character was there. There would be no dramatic tension if Abnur's could just snap his fingers and say "no more dragons". That was for the player character to feel important in moving the plot along.

Lastly, in my opinion the khamira character is not perfect. Far from it. She came across as brash and careless, and very proud, potentially to a fault. This is more akin to a young ruler trope than Mary Sue.

Gandrhulf_Harbard · July 2019

Erelah wrote: »

Breton... oh you would care. >.>

Okay while I am making lame jokes I will point out you did not mention you cared if they were Imperial Red Guard or Nord.

Note: I feel bad that I have to say the above is just a joke.

Might have issues with an Imperial. Not a big fan of Imperialism to be honest.

Red Guard? Cool, as long as no one asks me about Atava (spelling?, you know the one I mean).

Nord? My main is a Nord (Magplar) - yeah, I know

All The Best

FalanuHlaalu · July 2019

'Meet the Characters' are all designed to hype players for upcoming content, so having the author go "oh, Khamira is actually pretty rubbish at doing this" wouldn't fit the bill. Naryu's and Raz's lavish unanimous praise on their characters.

The issues I have with Khamira aren't with her character, but stem from the main quest trying to fit both a rebellion plot and a dragon invasion plot in the same quest line, leaving some things feeling rushed and undeveloped.

For example, Prefect Calo has zero character despite Zamarak's constant suspicion of him that never pays off, Zumog Phoom may as well be called Deadby Thethirdactwithnocharacterisation, and if you didn't do the Elsweyr tutorial, you'd have no prior understanding of what a Dragonhorn is or why it's so important.

In Khamira's case, her connection with the royal family isn't foreshadowed (but seeing as it's revealed so early on anyway, I'm not fussed by it), and her pendant does seem to come out of nowhere (I had forgotten about it completely since the prologue). Perhaps they could have had it so when Mulaamnir killed her squad in the mine, her pendant protected her with moon energy or something, so you'd get there was a link.

rotaugen454 wrote: »

Mary Sue + pudgy, she teenage girls= obvious sexism.

This. It's unneeded.

mairwen85 · July 2019

Darien is a man-muffin. There, I said it.

Meaningful comment redacted.

Kr3do · July 2019

cyclonus11 wrote: »

Kr3do wrote: »

Khamira would be just as bland and ridiculous if she was male, believe it or not.

Perhaps, but there likely wouldn't be a thread about it, and there definitely wouldn't be a "name" for it (like Mary Sue).

So you know OP's personal thoughts and agenda based on them using the (very common) term Mary Sue. Lol.
That's some wild accusations based on the fact that someone dislikes a character that happens to be female.

ArchMikem · July 2019

She's impulsive, rash, and headstrong. She took what few fighters she had left and charged after a Dragon without a second thought, and cost them their lives because of it. Reckless. You see a Mary Sue because you want to. If Khamira were male, what would you label him? Nothing. He'd be a typical male character to most.

She has strengths and flaws, the story just wants to shine on the strengths cause positivity!

Also she purrs too much.

VaranisArano · July 2019

Erelah wrote: »

blnchk wrote: »

Isn't it ever so odd how female characters are relentlessly scrutinised and called out for being "Mary Sues" with uncompromising indignation, while male characters, who serve as similar projection surfaces just as frequently, are rarely granted the same courtesy.

To be fair I don't think a single person has stated that Jorunn was an amazing hero who has done a ton of great things. There are many threads which point out how Emeric keeps missing the moment and having a spine (Well he does once and then he dies). Ayrenn on the other hand ran away from home, battled along side pirates and is almost as amazing as Khamira. They are called Mary Sue characters because if you were six years old and lacked any writing skills and tossed yourself in a book that is what you would do. You would be the most awesome person who solved everything and was perfect!

Ayrenn is NOT a Mary Sue.

Ayrenn wants to be A Mary Sue.

That's a very crucial difference.

Ayrenn wants to be the beloved unforeseen queen who comes back from her adventures, replaces the trained heir, and enlightens her hidebound people and drags them into a new Golden Age of Tolerance because she's just so wise and awesome! Ayrenn thinks that she doesn't have to convince people to follow her. She just has to decree it, and people will do it because she's queen and she's obviously learned so much from her adventures.

Oh, Ayrenn, you silly girl.

Spoiler: It doesn't work.
Her sister-in-law rebels against this breaking of tradition and tries to kill her.
Her brother, justifiably upset that big sister came back and ruined all his hopes and dreams, tries to kill her.
Her nobles, more loyal to the expected, trained heir who wasn't spouting nonsense, rebel against her and try to kill her.
Her alliances are fracturing at every turn under the threat of a Maomer Invasion she's stretched too thin to fight off effectively.
She's nowhere to be found when the new Silvenar and Green Lady need her.
Her troops in Shadowfen have either been subverted by the Worm Cult or are following her orders to kill Argonian Hatchlings - neither of which speaks well of her.
Finally, the conclusion of the Reaper's March makes it abundantly clear that without the help of the new Mane and the Silvenar& Green Lady, and the direct intervention of the Vestige, Queen Ayrenn's reign ends in disaster. Her Dominion collapses in ruin, dragging down her allies, and she dies friendless as her closest friends either die or turn on her.

And in Summerset, we see what Ayrenn's high-handed decress lead to: Kinlady Avenisse is frustrated enough with Ayrenn's distant oversight with no idea of how to actually make it work that Avenisse falls right into a daedric traps that kills a bunch of newcomers. Even after her Dominion is secured, Ayrenn still sucks at administrating her own kingdom. Her letter to the Proxy Queen is essentially "Welcome the newcomers. Take care of all the petty details for me, would you?" Razum-Dar is in Summerset basically cleaning up Ayrenn's messes, again.

Ayrenn's role in the AD questline is a deconstruction of a Mary Sue. Without the help of the Vestige, Razum-dar and the other Eyes, the Mane's wisdom, and the strength and spirituality of the Green Lady and the Silvenar, Ayrenn's Dominion was going to fall apart while she was killed as a Tyrant trying to use magical artifacts to make her people love her.

Ayrenn needs the help of all thosoe other people to make her vision work and clean up the problems her vision causes because while she's got the vision, she does NOT have the leadership and administrative chops to make it happen without her allies having to cover for her. Which is incredibly realistic for a teenage Queen lacking in practical government experience.

Erelah · July 2019

VaranisArano wrote: »

Erelah wrote: »

blnchk wrote: »

Isn't it ever so odd how female characters are relentlessly scrutinised and called out for being "Mary Sues" with uncompromising indignation, while male characters, who serve as similar projection surfaces just as frequently, are rarely granted the same courtesy.

To be fair I don't think a single person has stated that Jorunn was an amazing hero who has done a ton of great things. There are many threads which point out how Emeric keeps missing the moment and having a spine (Well he does once and then he dies). Ayrenn on the other hand ran away from home, battled along side pirates and is almost as amazing as Khamira. They are called Mary Sue characters because if you were six years old and lacked any writing skills and tossed yourself in a book that is what you would do. You would be the most awesome person who solved everything and was perfect!

Ayrenn is NOT a Mary Sue.

Ayrenn wants to be A Mary Sue.

No she is one and this is her official history written by staff Everything in the first paragraph happens before she is nine years old.:

Ayrenn was born the eldest child of King Hidellith of Alinor and Kinlady Tuinden, on the 5th of Second Seed in 2E 555. Her conception and naming was ordained by the Scrolls of Praxis. All of Summerset, Auridon, and Artaeum are said to have celebrated her auspicious birth for fifty-five days. It was foretold that Princess Ayrenn would reflect the restless and turbulent times in which she was born, and would one day bring innovations to the rule of the Summerset Isles. From an early age, the nimble and quick-witted princess would often adopt unorthodox approaches to schoolwork, and sometimes went missing for several days, only to return with unusual knowledge and mastery of skills. She trained in blades beside her father, rode horses along Summerset's golden beaches, and memorized the history and sonnets of her people.

Ayrenn would later disappear from the Summerset Isles at the age of eight, somewhere between the Alinor palace and the Crystal Tower in the year 2E 563. The entire royal family of Alinor had gathered at the Crystal Tower to celebrate Ayrenn's matriculation to the Sapiarchs' Labyrinth, where she was to study Altmeri Regal Praxis and Ceremoniarchy for a requisite 3,555 days.This time of intensive study had been required by all Summerset rulers in the past, and Ayrenn was to step into that period with arms wide.The Sapiarchs reported that the night of her disappearance was filled with signs and portents. The constellation of the Lady seemed to ride the constellation of the Steed, while the Great Orrery spun backward, and a young eaglet was found atop the statue of Topal the Explorer.

While the Justiciars began their long search for the princess, Ayrenn was already on the Isle of Balfiera. It is here where she began a new life with the Direnni at the Adamantine Tower. The members of that clan trained Ayrenn in the art of war, turning her simple noble swordplay to lithe and seasoned blade-dancing. Her beachside rides became forced marches on horseback, and her singing of sonnets gave way to the study of the arcane arts. Ayrenn's younger brother, Prince Naemon, would later be named heir to the throne of Alinor.

Following the death of King Hidellith in 2E 580, Ayrenn made an unexpected return to the Summerset Isles, travelling by swan ship from Port Velyn in Valenwood. After arriving in Firsthold, she announced that she was prepared, as the eldest heir, to assume the Throne of Alinor, and the High Justiciar affirmed that this was her right. She was crowned Queen Ayrenn on the 7th of Frostfall in the same year. It is said that the Sapiarchs endorsed all of the

VaranisArano · July 2019

Erelah wrote: »

VaranisArano wrote: »

Erelah wrote: »

blnchk wrote: »

Isn't it ever so odd how female characters are relentlessly scrutinised and called out for being "Mary Sues" with uncompromising indignation, while male characters, who serve as similar projection surfaces just as frequently, are rarely granted the same courtesy.

To be fair I don't think a single person has stated that Jorunn was an amazing hero who has done a ton of great things. There are many threads which point out how Emeric keeps missing the moment and having a spine (Well he does once and then he dies). Ayrenn on the other hand ran away from home, battled along side pirates and is almost as amazing as Khamira. They are called Mary Sue characters because if you were six years old and lacked any writing skills and tossed yourself in a book that is what you would do. You would be the most awesome person who solved everything and was perfect!

Ayrenn is NOT a Mary Sue.

Ayrenn wants to be A Mary Sue.

No she is one and this is her official history written by staff Everything in the first paragraph happens before she is nine years old.:

[lorebook snipped for lenngth]

Ooh, you can quote lorebooks!

How does this in any way address what I said about Ayrenn being a deconstruction of a Mary Sue?

Because she can have the bestest, most awesomest backstory ever...and she still fails utterly to be a good ruler on her own.

The entire AD questline is Ayrenn in over her head, losing friends and family and nearly her kingdom to her own ambition and failures, and ends with the clearest possible demonstration that if it were not for the Vestige's tireless help holding together her alliances, the wisdom of the new Mane, and the cooperation of the Bosmer Silvenar and the Green Lady, that Ayrenn's Dominion would have crumbled and she dies alone, overthrown by her own once-loyal people.

That's not how the story of a Mary Sue goes down...

Bekkael · July 2019

*shrug* I'm a woman and I didn't particularly enjoy Khamira. But I do think she went from a mostly forgettable character to full-blown annoying when she declared herself the long lost queen mid dragon fight. That was my only, real WTF moment during the questline. TES writing is a mixed bag; sometimes it's good, and sometimes it's laughably bad. I don't think Khamira was actually bad, just very meh.

And off-topic, but since it was brought up....

Rey is absolutely a Mary Sue.

She didn't earn any of her abilities and apparent awesomeness like was established by previous characters in SW. If she had, she would not be disliked by so many. (And I say that as a low-key Reylo fan) It isn't her gender that is objectionable, but the way her character is written as Perfect/Nice/Instantly adored by everyone/Great at everything, that trivializes the effort of becoming a skilled fighter/Jedi that other characters had to go through. She is a Disney Princess, in every sense.

SassiestAssassin · July 2019

SaKGEE wrote: »

Then again, I don’t know what else to expect from writers that believe TES lore should be retconned to include more strong female protagonists.

Oh buddy.
“Retconned” is not the word you’re looking for, since ESO is breaking new lore territory.
Also, as a former “pudgy, shy, teenage girl” the only thing I fantasized about was seeing a shred of female representation without being all about her sexiness/ love life.
It’s nice to have some cool cat ladies being OP as heck and annoying men.

NotaDaedraWorshipper · July 2019

cyclonus11 wrote: »

Kr3do wrote: »

Khamira would be just as bland and ridiculous if she was male, believe it or not.

Perhaps, but there likely wouldn't be a thread about it, and there definitely wouldn't be a "name" for it (like Mary Sue).

Mary Sue is a term used for both female and male characters. It may have started as one for badly done female characters, but these days it's not related to gender, it's about bad character writing.
Because no one cares/bothers with Marty Stu, Gary Sue, Larry Stu or whatever name people try put in for male characters. People know what Mary Sue means, and it's easier to just use that.

ZOS_JesC · July 2019

Greetings, we've closed this thread as it has derailed into an inappropriate discussion for the ESO forums. Thank you for your understanding.