I don’t like Khamira. There I said it.

SaKGEE

Warning: Spoilers ahead for the Elsweyr storyline

I really don’t like Khamira, one of the main cat NPCs from the Elsweyr Chapter. From her first mention in the “Character introduction” on the ESO website, she came off as a typical Mary Sue character that pudgy, shy teenage girls fantasise about on fanfiction.net.

For those of you that don’t know, a Mary Sue is typically a female character that lacks any flaws or weaknesses, a projection of the author’s hopes and dreams if you will. They’re boring, and usually very cliché characters that aren’t exactly a proof of good writing.

The “Meet the Character” introduction informs us that she's a mysterious, very secretive spy of noble origins. She’s unique, adventurous, very responsible for her young age, “incredibly capable (…) with unique skills and abilities”, and has a very unusual pendant around her neck. Wonder if that will be important later, gets beaten by a lampshade-wielding Khajiit.
That had already set off my Mary Sue alarm bells. And then the prologue came out. And Khamira was able to outsmart Abnur Tharn, a battlemage with a century of experience… Of course, she had help from her magical pendant (because apparently that incredibly convenient plot device can serve multiple purposes and randomly prevents scrying and detection).

For one, it portrays Abnur Tharn as a bumbling moron that gets outplayed by a random Khajiit. And second, the fact that her magical pendant can do this and (spoiler) open moon gates really comes off as a narrative copout. Is it a multi-purpose centuries old pendant? Why does wearing it cancel magical detection AND opens moon gates? What’s the relation between the two? (Also worth noting that the “pendant makes me invisible to magic” part is never mentioned again past the prologue).Obviously, I understand why it was done from a storyline perspective - to help build up the character of Khamira. Look at her, she’s so strong and mysterious, and can evade even Tharn himself. But it just feels really forced and stupid.

Anyways, then Elsweyr came out. Naturally, Khamira proved herself to be a great warrior, because she’s just that good at everything. And then, there was that scene. You know the one I’m talking about. The one where Khamira announced that she was the long lost Queen of Anequina in the middle of a freaking battle against dragons.

And there I have several issues. You don’t know anything about the ruling family of Anequina. You don’t know who the people that Euraxia ousted are. It’s just “Euraxia took Rimmen, and has ruled it since”. Regarding Khamira herself, there’s a throwaway line in her “meet the character” that says she misses Anequina. But that’s not enough to make her the queen. It comes out of nowhere and feels forced as hell.

Not to mention, if the Speaker of the Mane knew she was that important politically speaking, why would he make her a spy and send her to the frontlines? And generally keep everyone in the dark about it. Why wasn’t it announced that she was Queen when the rebellion to retake Anequina was being organised? Why announce it randomly in the middle of a dragon battle?And the whole “I was raised in secret so that none of my enemies would kill me” excuse falls flat when you know she’s been working as a spy, an equally dangerous profession.

And when the time comes to open the moon gate, of course her much-mentioned moon pendant becomes useful. And of course she remembers a conveniently told childhood story about the exact things she needs to do to open a portal to the moons.

What I’m saying is, you don’t need to make your female characters Mary Sues to make them appealing. Other female protagonists in the TES universe (and even in ESO) have flaws. That makes them relatable, human even.
Khamira on the other hand is a terrible character. A super perfect, “too wise for her age” spy (and you can’t even use the “it’s a biased lorebook” as an excuse since her Meet the Character page is a report made for the Alinor Queen, and therefore supposedly objective) that also happens to be nobility, nay the Queen of Anequina herself, AND that has a magical moon pendant whose incredible properties and importance to the story we’re being beaten with lampshades over.

There’s no foreshadowing about her being the Queen. Hell, you don’t even know who the ruler Euraxia ousted was, let alone that he/she / it / xir had a daughter. And there’s too much foreshadowing, nay lampshading, about her magical pendant that’s oh so awesome, and can do so many random things as the plot demands.

Then again, I don’t know what else to expect from writers that believe TES lore should be retconned to include more strong female protagonists.

Kr3do

I didn't like her from the beginning. I killed the dragon and saved the cat people and she just started shouting that she's the queen and stole all my clout

rotaugen454

Pudgy, shy teenage girls? We knew where this was going at that moment.

blnchk

Isn't it ever so odd how female characters are relentlessly scrutinised and called out for being "Mary Sues" with uncompromising indignation, while male characters, who serve as similar projection surfaces just as frequently, are rarely granted the same courtesy.

rotaugen454

blnchk wrote: »

Isn't it ever so odd how female characters are relentlessly scrutinised and called out for being "Mary Sues" with uncompromising indignation, while male characters, who serve as similar projection surfaces just as frequently, are rarely granted the same courtesy.

You mean like Cadwell, who comes across as insane and a bit slow, yet who seems to understand everything that is going on and is incredibly competent?

susmitds

blnchk wrote: »

Isn't it ever so odd how female characters are relentlessly scrutinised and called out for being "Mary Sues" with uncompromising indignation, while male characters, who serve as similar projection surfaces just as frequently, are rarely granted the same courtesy.

Stibbons or whatever his name was.

daemonios

rotaugen454 wrote: »

Pudgy, shy teenage girls? We knew where this was going at that moment.

I know, right? Because male heroes, by contrast, are always and invariably multi-layered and complex. No men have come forward as the long-dethroned emperor (oh wait, wasn't that Varen Aquilarios?) long-lost heir to the throne (what do you mean, that was the entire main plot to Oblivion?) oh sod it...

Look, I'm not saying ESO has the best storytelling ever. It does not. Elsweyr still was slightly better than Summerset in that regard, though. But you should really check why you're getting your panties in a wad over Khamira when there are other much more glaring failings in this chapter. Starting with the pointless, badly disguised fan service guest appearance by Razum-dar, past the cringey battle of the Cadwells...

Erelah

blnchk wrote: »

Isn't it ever so odd how female characters are relentlessly scrutinised and called out for being "Mary Sues" with uncompromising indignation, while male characters, who serve as similar projection surfaces just as frequently, are rarely granted the same courtesy.

To be fair I don't think a single person has stated that Jorunn was an amazing hero who has done a ton of great things. There are many threads which point out how Emeric keeps missing the moment and having a spine (Well he does once and then he dies). Ayrenn on the other hand ran away from home, battled along side pirates and is almost as amazing as Khamira. They are called Mary Sue characters because if you were six years old and lacked any writing skills and tossed yourself in a book that is what you would do. You would be the most awesome person who solved everything and was perfect!

More fun reading on how not to make a Mary Sue!

https://www.standoutbooks.com/avoid-mary-sue-protagonist/

https://www.writerswrite.com/characters/mary-sue/

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue

And a fun test to find out if you made a Mary Sue!

https://www.allthetests.com/quiz22/quiz/1171905635/Is-your-original-character-a-Mary-Sue

luen79rwb17_ESO

Lay down the gender agenda please this has nothing to do with it.

I totally agree with OP, some characters are forced into this heroic persona in such a way that it's too evident, turning out to be too cheesy and too flat. Razum Dar (or whatever the name is) is another example.

But I guess they're popular for God knows which reasons so we just have to bear with it. In my case, skipping the cheesy dialog as fast as I can.

Ogou

I feel like you're exaggerating a lot of things here. She didn't outsmart Tharn, she just had a magic pendant that protected her from his scrying, that's literally it. When it comes to her warrior prowess, she didn't do anything to make her stand out more than any of the other people we adventured with.
Also, as aid to the speaker of the Mane, her role was mostly diplomatic, she most likely never was on the front line fighting anything.
I agree with a lot of your complaints when it comes to the story (though I knew she was going to be the queen as soon as I learned the royal family had apparently been killed, ZOS writers are not exactly subtle about this kind of stuff). However, Khamira is far from being the Mary Sue you claim she is. Now I wonder if you would have had the same complaint if she was male instead.

daemonios

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Lay down the gender agenda please this has nothing to do with it.

It has everything to do with it when OP is the first to bring up the "Mary Sue" argument. They could have objected to the whole "flawless hero" writing without making it sexist. They did not.

blnchk

Erelah wrote: »

blnchk wrote: »

Isn't it ever so odd how female characters are relentlessly scrutinised and called out for being "Mary Sues" with uncompromising indignation, while male characters, who serve as similar projection surfaces just as frequently, are rarely granted the same courtesy.

To be fair I don't think a single person has stated that Jorunn was an amazing hero who has done a ton of great things. There are many threads which point out how Emeric keeps missing the moment and having a spine (Well he does once and then he dies). Ayrenn on the other hand ran away from home, battled along side pirates and is almost as amazing as Khamira. They are called Mary Sue characters because if you were six years old and lacked any writing skills and tossed yourself in a book that is what you would do. You would be the most awesome person who solved everything and was perfect!

More fun reading on how not to make a Mary Sue!

https://www.standoutbooks.com/avoid-mary-sue-protagonist/

https://www.writerswrite.com/characters/mary-sue/

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue

And a fun test to find out if you made a Mary Sue!

https://www.allthetests.com/quiz22/quiz/1171905635/Is-your-original-character-a-Mary-Sue

Even though you seem to have missed it quite spectacularly, you're still proving my point for me there. So thanks.

cyclonus11

Sexist rant is sexist. More at eleven.

Ogou

Erelah wrote: »

blnchk wrote: »

Isn't it ever so odd how female characters are relentlessly scrutinised and called out for being "Mary Sues" with uncompromising indignation, while male characters, who serve as similar projection surfaces just as frequently, are rarely granted the same courtesy.

To be fair I don't think a single person has stated that Jorunn was an amazing hero who has done a ton of great things. There are many threads which point out how Emeric keeps missing the moment and having a spine (Well he does once and then he dies). Ayrenn on the other hand ran away from home, battled along side pirates and is almost as amazing as Khamira. They are called Mary Sue characters because if you were six years old and lacked any writing skills and tossed yourself in a book that is what you would do. You would be the most awesome person who solved everything and was perfect!

More fun reading on how not to make a Mary Sue!

https://www.standoutbooks.com/avoid-mary-sue-protagonist/

https://www.writerswrite.com/characters/mary-sue/

https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/MarySue

And a fun test to find out if you made a Mary Sue!

https://www.allthetests.com/quiz22/quiz/1171905635/Is-your-original-character-a-Mary-Sue

Funnily enough, according to that quiz Khamira would not be a Mary Sue.

MyNameIsElias

I don't know much about writing at all, but i will agree that when Khamira revealed herself as the queen during the dragon fight, it felt extremely odd and cheesy.

Oh, and the Abnur Tharn half sister joke got really tiring after the first two times. Other than that, i mostly enjoyed the Elsweyr main quest

Jaimeh

SaKGEE wrote: »

For one, it portrays Abnur Tharn as a bumbling moron that gets outplayed by a random Khajiit. And second, the fact that her magical pendant can do this and (spoiler) open moon gates really comes off as a narrative copout. Is it a multi-purpose centuries old pendant? Why does wearing it cancel magical detection AND opens moon gates? What’s the relation between the two? (Also worth noting that the “pendant makes me invisible to magic” part is never mentioned again past the prologue).Obviously, I understand why it was done from a storyline perspective - to help build up the character of Khamira. Look at her, she’s so strong and mysterious, and can evade even Tharn himself. But it just feels really forced and stupid.

There’s no foreshadowing about her being the Queen. Hell, you don’t even know who the ruler Euraxia ousted was, let alone that he/she / it / xir had a daughter. And there’s too much foreshadowing, nay lampshading, about her magical pendant that’s oh so awesome, and can do so many random things as the plot demands.

From what we know of Khamira, it stands to reason that she wouldn't abide not being involved, even if it meant extra risk, and since supposedly there was no doubt of survivals, she, and the Mane, probably felt her cover was secure enough.

As for the pendant, we don't really know about the magic of the gate, maybe it's a specific brand that offers protection and invisibility from other kinds. More extravagant things have happened in ESO. If Abnur wanted to find out who his shadow was, had more time and resources, he likely would have, but it was a prologue quest, and time was of the essence.

I don't agree that foreshadowing regarding her true identity and function was necessary, plost twists and surprises are a story-telling tool after-all.

She definitely had flaws, you can tell she'll make a somewhat awkward queen, at least for the first years of her reign, for example, and she'll have to get versed in diplomacy.

The only thing I didn't like about the writing of her character, was that she was terse with the Vestige at the beginning, and then overly mushy by the end. One could argue it was because of all the things they went through together, and how instrumental the Vestige was, but intitially I thought the terseness was part of her personality, and I quite liked it, so I'd prefer it if she remained a bit like that until the end of the story, gratitude towards the Vestige, nonwithstanding.

Finally, I agree with one commenter above, that if Khamira was male, there probably wouldn't be 'Gary Stu' comparisons.

yodased

What characters in ESO do you like and think are well developed, if any?

I think if we are going to present what not to do, if it's available we should probably look at one that they did do right, for science.

mairwen85

yodased wrote: »

What characters in ESO do you like and think are well developed, if any?

I think if we are going to present what not to do, if it's available we should probably look at one that they did do right, for science.

Darien - - 🔥

Kr3do

cyclonus11 wrote: »

Sexist rant is sexist. More at eleven.

daemonios wrote: »

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Lay down the gender agenda please this has nothing to do with it.

It has everything to do with it when OP is the first to bring up the "Mary Sue" argument. They could have objected to the whole "flawless hero" writing without making it sexist. They did not.

Nothing sexist about it. Razum-Dar is equally bad and should be skinned.
Maybe you guys are reading a bit too much into OP using the term Mary Sue, just a thought

rotaugen454

Kr3do wrote: »

cyclonus11 wrote: »

Sexist rant is sexist. More at eleven.

daemonios wrote: »

luen79rwb17_ESO wrote: »

Lay down the gender agenda please this has nothing to do with it.

It has everything to do with it when OP is the first to bring up the "Mary Sue" argument. They could have objected to the whole "flawless hero" writing without making it sexist. They did not.

Nothing sexist about it. Razum-Dar is equally bad and should be skinned.
Maybe you guys are reading a bit too much into OP using the term Mary Sue, just a thought

Mary Sue + pudgy, shy teenage girls= obvious sexism.

Dinokstrun

Mary Sues are boring bland characters just like Rey from Star Wars. I don't think Khamira is quite a mary sue I mean if she was able to kill a Bahlokdaan, Mulaamnir or Kaalgrontiid without player intervention then yes. I do feel a bit more bad for Abnur defo gave him the slight Captain Jack Sparrow treatment,as if a veteran battlemage couldn't master teleportation, making constant errors and cast spells effectively just for the writers to play it off as the ageing wizard trope seemed lame.

luen79rwb17_ESO

For me the only character that really shined on the main quest with many emotional turn arounds was Cadwell.

Not gonna mention details but not only he was his typical self, we learned alot about his past and I felt the emotional stress when action was centered around his story.

Donny_Vito

All the cat NPC are basically annoying except that drunk one. Lets get that out in the air.

KingArthasMenethil

My issue with Khamira is the whole Rimmen Royal Family part which makes her doomed and just seems pointless when the Akaviri/Imperials are going to get control of Rimmen anyway (In the Second Era and remain in control to even in the fourth era) and then go for independence from Elsweyr.

Never mind the whole "King Savlian of Rimmen" which begs the question if Rimmen has a Khajiit royal family why is there a human ruler? Was it written in late?

Suddwrath

TelvanniWizard

Agree with op. Khamira was a bland and boring character. Cadwell, mentioned above, I think it's great, from its Quixote roots in Coldharbour to the betrayer/double personality thing. Funny and well thought (and voiced) imho.

snarkomatic

She's not a Mary Sue (and neither was Rey). Girls you don't like are not the same thing as badly written characters. Girls you don't like are not the same thing as forced diversity. Get over yourselves.

Erelah

snarkomatic wrote: »

She's not a Mary Sue (and neither was Rey). Girls you don't like are not the same thing as badly written characters. Girls you don't like are not the same thing as forced diversity. Get over yourselves.

Because a fictional character is female does not mean people do not like the character because it is female. Assuming that a person cannot like a fictional character based upon the gender rather than how they are written is sexist.

Naryu and her apprentice were amazing. Emeric is someone I would love to have a beer with (not rule my nation, just have a beer with). Cadwell is amazing and I would let him rule my nation. It wouldn't last long, but it would be fun. Azura is very interesting I like and dislike these characters due to how they were written. Their personality, flaws, goals, and none of them are perfect.

In the RPing groups I have joined if Khamira was handed in as a player sheet with that back story we would have called her a Mary Sue and asked for some flaws be added in. Talked with the player about making her different than themselves.

Donny_Vito

snarkomatic wrote: »

She's not a Mary Sue (and neither was Rey). Girls you don't like are not the same thing as badly written characters. Girls you don't like are not the same thing as forced diversity. Get over yourselves.

Rey was a total Mary Sue. Everything she did was perfect and she excelled at it, but they give you this impression she's a normal female like every other girl out there. She literally had no flaws, except for the fact she was abandoned as a child which actually works in her favor. How you can argue she wasn't a Mary Sue character is beyond me.

Gandrhulf_Harbard

Gaius_Marius wrote: »

which begs the quest if Rimmen has a Khajiit royal family why is there a human ruler? Was it written in late?

Had to hit the diversity quota.

There, I said it.

If Khamira had been male that story arc would still be badly written. The only difference is the female gamers would be complaining about another "male lead".

I don't care if a "story lead" is male or female; I don't care if they are human, elf. khajiit or argonian; heck I don't even care if they are breton.

I do care if their story arc is badly written - and this was badly written.

All The Best

Erelah

Gandrhulf_Harbard wrote: »

Gaius_Marius wrote: »

which begs the quest if Rimmen has a Khajiit royal family why is there a human ruler? Was it written in late?

Had to hit the diversity quota.

There, I said it.

If Khamira had been male that story arc would still be badly written. The only difference is the female gamers would be complaining about another "male lead".

I don't care if a "story lead" is male or female; I don't care if they are human, elf. khajiit or argonian; heck I don't even care if they are breton.

I do care if their story arc is badly written - and this was badly written.

All The Best

Breton... oh you would care. >.>

Okay while I am making lame jokes I will point out you did not mention you cared if they were Imperial Red Guard or Nord.

Note: I feel bad that I have to say the above is just a joke.